712:... Lucy said Joseph was put on probation. If he showed proper penitence, the interpreters would be returned on September 22, the day of his annual interview with Moroni for the past four years. ... Lucy Smith said that Joseph received the interpreters again on September 22, 1828 ... (Footnote 46) Although the assertion clashes with other accounts, David Whitmer said Moroni did not return the Urim and Thummim in September. Instead Joseph used a seerstone for the remaining translation. Kansas City Journal, June 19, 1881, Omaha Herald, Oct. 17, 1886; Interview (1885), in Whitmer, Interviews, 72, 157, 200. Of the translation process, Emma said, “The first that my husband translated, was translated by the use of the Urim, and Thummim, and that was the part that Martin Harris lost, after that he used a small stone, not exactly black, but was rather a dark color.”" Emma Smith Bidamon to Emma Pilgrim, Mar. 27, 1870, in EMD, 1:532.
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spectacles, he received angelic encouragement. “Immediately after my return home I was walking out a little distance,” he said in 1838, “when, behold, the former heavenly messenger appeared and handed to me the Urim and
Thummim again ..." Obscuring the nature and duration of his indecision when he wrote his 1838-39 history, he reported that “immediately” after he returned to Harmony, he received a revelation resolving the matter and that the plates and interpreters were returned after only “a few days.” ... He explained that even after he regained possession of the plates, presumably in mid-July 1828, ... Contradicting the “few days” of Joseph’s 1838-39 history, Lucy remembered that the angel had told him the plates would be returned on 22 September 1828 if he was sufficiently worthy."Vogel, Dan. Joseph Smith: The Making of a Prophet (A Biography) (Kindle Locations 4951-4952, 5801-5803). Signature Books. Kindle Edition.
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not sure what the exact protocol is when a secondary source makes a claim about a primary source that is not factual. Knowledge (XXG) is not about what is true, but what is verifiable, so the way I see it, Bushman is making a claim or assumption based on a source that doesn't say what he says it says. My vote, as noted earlier, would be to add some kind of context or supporting additional sources to settle this distinction one way or the other. Just wanted to put this out there. Sorry this was such a lengthy comment, but I hope it made my thought process and reasoning on this clear enough. Either way, there has got to be some middle-ground method to resolve the discrepancy, because at the moment, the reader consulting both sources is likely to get confused on this matter as is. --
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Mormonthink.com is not a reliable source. It is about reliable as fairmormon.com or jefflindsay.com. It is a self-published website and fails the criteria for a reliable source. The "unreliable source?" tag has been in the article for years. It seems a rather selective application of the "been in the
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However, the supposed "evil men" (if they existed) could just as easily alter the stolen manuscript to contradict any new account. When Smith reached the end of the book, he said he was told that God had foreseen the loss of the early manuscript and had prepared the same history in an abridged format
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that the plates were returned to Joseph Smith one year to the exact day from when he originally received the plates does not actually say that will be the case. I understand that things get more than slightly sticky when speaking about what primary sources say vs. what secondary sources say, but I am
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It will not be clear to many a reader (and is not clear to this reader) what "interpreters" means under section "The manuscript disappears". It apparently is not the "seer stones", and perhaps not the "spectacles", which at some point some article says was eventually used almost-interchangeably with
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I'll follow up with an even lengthier response (sorry as well!). The timeline for the return of the plates and the interpreters is not clear from the historical record, and
Richard Bushman acknowledges this in "Rough Stone Rolling". I believe the article did/does not reflect what was summarized in
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The article makes a claim. The arcane references is almost unintelligible/intelligible. I tried to fix this, but it was reverted. Can someone make heads or tails of the reference, and put it into plain
English? because as it stands it looks like someone being tricky, to keep the claim of a deathbed
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or anyone else reading this conversation has any objections, I'd suggest fleshing out that part of the article to explain the discrepancy. Since you are more familiar with the source material, I will leave that process up to you to figure out, and any further issues can be discussed here on talk as
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Upon returning to
Harmony, he said the angel had taken back the plates and spectacles. As a result, he had lost his gift of seeing, and for a season, heaven fell silent... In his history, he later minimized this period of uncertainty by claiming that, despite the withdrawal of the plates and
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The syntactical changes I made were intended to be stylistic improvements, and I replaced electronic citations with page citations from my dead-tree copies of
Bushman and Vogel. In other words, I didn't intend to change the substance, though perhaps I misunderstood something in the process.
760:. I'm glad I started this topic so this could be discussed and detailed. Based on the additional information you shared, I am fully on board with what you suggested, and support your assertion that it needs to be mentioned in the article, not as a footnote or reference. Unless
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I believe the confusion of the timeline is significant and should be mentioned within the article, not in a footnote. Not mentioning all of the plausible alternatives leads us to demonstrate a POV towards a preferred alternative, something neither
Bushman or Vogel did.
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issues. I don't see any reason that the statement would be unreliable. Writing this in another way might get clunky: "Eldin Ricks said that Martin Harris said..." etc. This section however could probably use rewriting. Any thoughts on how it could be phrased?
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You've removed all reference to
Hoffman, but left in the Lindsey reference, which seems odd to me since it primarily deals with Hoffman and not the supposed "evil men". What part of the Lindsey reference supports the claim being made in the
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confession in the article. It is a single reference given that apparently makes this claim, if someone could get the actual quotation so that we can make sure it does? and also rewrite the reference in plain language?
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953:(New York: Simon & Schuster, 1988), p.300. "It was possible, George thought, that Hofmann could have destroyed Mormonism. Perhaps that is what he wanted to do — and to get rich at the same time."
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It duplicates the sentence that begins with "When Smith reached the end of the book..." I have again removed the duplicate sentence as I don't believe this is the point of the disagreement.
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I think the quotation's too long and the source from which it's taken too suspect. I've put the statement in a footnote so that the conclusion of the article doesn't appear so biased.
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Bushman, Richard Lyman. Joseph Smith: Rough Stone
Rolling (Vintage) (Kindle Locations 1640-1641). Knopf Doubleday Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.
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Nevertheless, "evil men" might also have altered the lost manuscript to contradict the new account as well
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on
Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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on
Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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on Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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Hello again, everyone! While I appreciate and respect the work that
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