2097:"a group of human beings whose members identify with each other"-Ethnic germans do not identify with jews except at a very base level(like greed). Baseness can be identified in all groups of people so it is to general a collection of characteristics. Jews do identify with other jews though on the jewish level. "of common cultural","behavioral"-Jewish people have jewish culture, ethnic germans have german culture. Just because jews have extreme lust(baseness) for high status jobs and are able to attain those high status jobs does not change their jewish ethnicity to some other ethnicity. "linguistic"- So all americans who speak english are english-americans? Anyone in who learns french automatically becomes french? "religious"- A religious group is a religious group an ethinic group is an ethnic group. "biological"- Jewish people have middle eastern jewish genes ethnic germans have germanic genes.
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There are studies that prove the
European Jews have not intermixed with Europeans as much as believed as they still today have Y-DNA & Mtdna uncommon in Europe yet extremely common in the Arab world. They have remained a clear homogeneous distinct group in Europe. They are an actual ethnic group, and personally i'm getting quite sick of the notion that their affiliation is pure "religious" despite studies that prove they are unlike native Europeans. They were isolated, and most of them marry other Ashkenazi jews. So yes, German Jews can be included in the list about National Germans, but they can never be included in a list of ethnic Germans. They are there own distinct group, as distinct as the African Americans in The United States are and should not be representive of any ethnic German. Europeans know this, it seems Americans are the only ones who have trouble with "ethnicity".
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article to look at this list they want to see the people from their own ethnic group who have grown up in the real german communities and the culture of the real german-americans not the people who have grown up in the yiddish culture and jewish communities. There is no way that every real german-american could gain a high status occupation since alot of them have to work the lower class jobs that make the upper class jobs possible so putting a bunch of elitist people(jews) who really have no love for german culture or the german people(except that the jews want to leech onto gentile groups to attain the high status jobs created by those gentile populations) in this list is an incorrect categorization.
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Nigerian. There are ethnic Yoruba but there is no such thing as a Yoruba citizen - easy enough. Areas of overlap, nation-states like
Germany or Japan, blur the lines for many people, but they really shouldn't. One can have German ancestry without being a German citizen (many Austrians, Swiss, and Americans, for example). One can also be a German citizen without being an ethnic German (for example, an individual born in Berlin to Swedish immigrants, and his or her Swedish-born parents themselves). The confusion comes from assuming that a German citizen of Swedish ancestry is less of a German citizen than a German citizen of German ancestry.
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of 100% Ashkenazi Jewish ancestry from the category of German
Americans isn't objectively offensive in its intention - After all, many German Americans trace their ancestry to a time before Germany existed as a unified country. If one were to exclude Steven Speilberg from a list of "German Americans," that doesn't assume his ancestors were less German citizens than Paris Hilton's German ancestors, since Paris Hilton's German ancestors were never German citizens.
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2304:. What to do with such lists now? Are Americans of Swiss therefore also of German descent? Although Swiss people have stopped calling themselves Germans? Or do we only consider those as Germans who lived on the territory which now forms the Federal Republic? That would obviously be nonsense. You see. Defining who's German and who's not is an unbelievably difficult task no one can fullfil without others complaining. --
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and they've coexisted with
European Americans for a significantly shorter period of history. In this sense, Albert Einstein is definitely a German American from an ethnic perspective, in the sense that at least a few of his ancestors were ethnic Germans who married some of his ethnic Ashkenazi ancestors and passed their ancestry on to him generations later. --
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Jewish people have their own culture and their own communities. Please understand that whenever a real german-american comes to look at the list of german-americans on wikipedia they do not come to see a group of people who think they are german-american. Whenever a real german-american comes to this
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Ashkenazi picked up some
European Mtdna in their history in Europe but the majority of their Y-DNA still traces them back to the Middle East rather than Europe. The Jews in European countries are genetically distinct from the native populations in everyone of those countries. Unless they're a convert
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4. Now, here's where things really get complex. The above argument is based on an assumption that ethnic German gentiles never married into the
Ashkenazi Jewish communities over the course of nearly 2000 years. This is almost assuredly false - Nearly all African Americans have some European ancestry,
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This is a list of notable German-Americans who do not appear on the original list. All those people considered by different sources like German-American (ie, people who are direct descents of
Germany, having a German father,to a close ancestor German, etc...) excluded from the original list on this
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A hugenot has a good chance of having germanic ancestors as well so they could actually say that if their germanic ancestors had populated the land that became germany the german culture would still exist in the land that makes up germany. If jewish people were the only people who had populated the
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3. Now, for the question at hand - Is an
American citizen whose Jewish ancestors came from Germany a "German American"? Well, obviously "German American" isn't describing citizenship since the person in question is a citizen of the United States, not Germany. As an ethnic term, excluding a American
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I was wondering if the jews should be removed from this list since they already have there own list of jewish-americans. There are some other reasons that jews should be removed from the german-american list, like jews are not german they are jews. If this list was filled up with only jewish people
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and observe the following inconsistency: In the corresponding article, Dankmar Adler is referred to as a German-born
American architect, but here he is not. He is listed in the same way as Horace Trumbauer, who was born in the United States. In contrast, Hans Schuler is explicitly referred to as a
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Also the main reason why the people come to look at these list(list of irish-americans, list of italian-americans,..etc.) is to see the people from there own ethnic group who have contributed to american intellectual society not to see a people who think that they are part of that ethnic group but
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2. "Jewish" describes both a category of religious denominations and a category of ethnicities. Orthodox
Judaism and Reform Judaism are religions. Meanwhile, Ashkenazim and Sephardim are ethnicities. One can be Jewish by religion without being Jewish by ethnicity, and someone else can be Jewish by
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became more narrow century by century. Until the end of the 19th century, even Dutch, Flemish, Luxembourgish and Swiss people regarded themselves as part of a culturally, linguistically and ethnically defined "German people" that existed independently of political borders. Some time ago, I read a
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This list should only include german americans who have ethnic german ancestors. If some group of irish people lived in germany for a short period of time practiced their own irish culture and then moved to the U.S. they would not be german americans. Sorbs and wends who are two ethnically slavic
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5. Jewish people born and raised in Germany are German nationaly, but they are not German ethnicaly. Jews are a semitic people. The only people Ashkenazi Jews cluster with in Europe are Southern Italians. Ashkenazi Jews have no genetic relation to ethnic Germans and they are geneticaly distinct.
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A few points: 1. "German" can describe both an ethnic ancestry and a citizenship. If you look at a map of the world showing political divisions, and a map of the world showing ethnic divisions, you'll find plenty of differences. There are Nigerian citizens but there is no such thing as an ethnic
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Mercedez Ruehl has part german ancestry. Raul Boesel is Brazilian but must have some german ancestry as well, based on a historic german immigrant wave to Brazil (hence the abundance of german or german-sounding last names there, sometimes even with the original Umlaut in place -see e.g. Giselle
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Should the term German-born be used here at all? Is being German-born relevant? How does it relate to being a German American? (not all German Americans are German-born; is any German-born who emigrated to the US and holds an American citizenship automatically a German American? Answering these
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emigrated because of eg nazi suppression, doesn't make them less German. I don't see why they should be removed from this list. No one would remove catholic persons from this list either and I don't see the harm done when someone is listed in both lists, german-americans and jewish americans .
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Being Jewish does in my opinion mean to belong to a religious group not a nationality. Eventhough due to history jews are often seen as one group of people, much closer than other religions. Many Jewish people were born in Germany, felt German and fought for Germany during WW1. That they later
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What about the Hugenots. They were welcomed by Prussia to live in Germany. If the grandchild of a Hugenot moved to America, would you deny this person German-American status? These Hugenots and Jews may have practiced a religion different from that of their neighbors, but they spoke German,
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Judaism is a religion. Not an accurate ethnic indicator. There are people who become Jewish. There are Jews who leave the faith. IP User, would you deny someone with a Jewish father and a German mother, who moves to America status as a German American? How about grandmother? How about
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land of germany they would not practice german culture since german culture is dependent on germanic people(specifically germanic males). Jewish people are a middle eastern ethnic group, they are not germanic therefore they should be removed from this list.
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But this article is not about selecting Germans from Jews like on a deportation-place! Maybe Nazi-Propaganda is suggesting something different but in reality being jewish and german is not an antagonism! Any yes, I do reject pseudo-science a la Josef
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What does that even mean? Somebody born in today's Germany, West Germany, or the GDR is certainly German-born. Is somebody from the German Empire? Is somebody from Prussia? Is somebody born to US-American parents, say, at a military base in Germany,
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Uhm you seem to be confusing "Germanic" with "Germans" Germanic defines several tribes and its modern decendents, Swedes, Norwegians, Danes, Dutch are all Germanic, but they are not "German". Their genetic history is as distinct as Germans are.
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Genetic mapping of Europeans. Ashkenazi cluster nowhere near Germans. They cluster only with Sicilians/South Italians/Greeks. Which makes sense given their long history in these regions. They picked up quite a few genetic markers from them.
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quote from a Swiss professor. He gave a speech in Nuremberg in 1902 in which he proudly stated that the Swiss are "Germans as well". Nowadays, only (ethnically Germanic) citizens of the Federal Republic of Germany still call themselves
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groups who have their own slavic cultures should be excluded from this list. Jews are not ethnic germans but are a middle eastern ethnic group and have always kept there jewish culture therefore jews should be excluded from this list.
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I did not give my personal opinion on what an ethnic group is, I did refute your argument that the jews on this list are ethnic germans. The "jewish level" meaning jewish culture(bar/bat mitzvah, jewish cuisine, jewish holidays).
2750:, I'm going to go through each section and ensure that the target article or cited source support inclusion. I'm also going to remove the irrelevant "estimations" of ancestry ("mostly", "partly", "small amount", and so on).
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I suppose it is not surprising the Nazi beliefs still live on, such as the belief that Jews born and raised in Germany are somehow not German because only non-Jews can be German. This is complete nonsense, of course.
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who happened to have lived in germany before they came to america no one would think that this is a list of german-americans they would think of it as a list of jewish americans who lived in germany for a time.
2128:, we are looking for verifiable facts. Do you have any reliable sources that can refute any of the specific references given in the list or on the respective articles? Otherwise they will be included, your
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Also actors like Charisma Carpenter,Anjelina jolie, William Petersen, Lauren Storm or Sean Astin are partly German descent, but they are not included in the original list of German-American notables.´´´´
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Dear sushi, Selecting who is a german-american is what this article is all about. If categorizing is DISGUSTING to you you should not look at this article and also you should reject all of science.
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list (Most of the people who appear in it correspond to well- Know actors and actresses). Please, if you have a reliable source to accept or reject these people as German-Americans indicate this:
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identified with the German state, fought for Germany, and had German social attitudes. Defining what German is, is a difficult task in itself. Do not make it harder by trying to exclude such groups.
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No, he`s not confusing amything, he`s absolutely right: Until the early 20th century Dutch, Flemings and the German-speaking majority of Swiss people considered themselves Germans.
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In the meantime, please refrain from removing people from the list without giving a very good reason. Prior consensus, as shown above and in the article's history, is to
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Can I delete all of those people who have a small amount of german ethnicity? I am going to delete all of tha people who are not sourced as being german americans.
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Bündchen- which in his case would make his original family name "Bösel"). Race drivers... what about the Bettenhausen and Unser dynasties? Obvious german names.
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wholeheartedly. If they were born in Germany and became U.S. citizens, then they and their descendants are German-American. This is totally consistent with the
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Anastasia is greek. Other persons are only "a bit" german. I think, we have enough famous people to be proud about and don't use the stupid "one-drop-rule"
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are defined as "citizens of the United States of ethnic German ancestry". This quite explicitly includes Germans who fled to the US during WWII, see
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Defining who's a German-American is impossible as the Germans themselves changed their self-definition in the course of the centuries. The word
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for Erwin Panofsky whom you removed, then they belong on the list. Provide a reliable source refuting that claim and we can talk about it.
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article that list only people who are german and not jewish people? Adding the jews in the german-americans list makes it to long.
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on Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the ongoing discussions.
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A hugenot who moved to america would probably say that they were hugenot first and germany was just a placed they lived in.
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Can you show that this summarily does not apply to each and every person who you have removed from this list? See BTW also
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great-grandmother? If you follow that path you tread very close to the kind of thinking that led to the Nuremburg laws.
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Actually all jewish people are middle eastern regardless of where they live or how long they have been there.
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Germans, I propose we delete anyone who does not have American Indian ancestry. This article should be about
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1645:. Espeacially in Germany itself there is a common fear of offending any Jew by callimg him German. --
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Is it even necessary to use such a term when articles already mention the place of birth anyway?
1996:. Unless that very definition is changed first by consensus, this list shouldn't exlude Jews. --
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If it's necessary, that cathegory should be renamed into "persons with some german roots"
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linking to that page which explains why it needs to be used on that page. Please check
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The fact that jews are not ethnic germans is enough to remove them from this list.
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are actually not. Jewish people are not german they are a middle-eastern people.
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You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. —
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questions would also allow us to make progress in the following discussion:
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article. You've tried this ploy before, and were voted down, so give it up.
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Resolve the disparity in importance rankings among different ethnic groups
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2076:. If there is a reliable source calling a person a German-American, like
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Greed. The jewish level. Extreme lust for high status jobs. Seriously?
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This is a fuzzy topic, but quite basically we are only looking for
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Only a VERY small handful of Jews are of Middle-Eastern descent....
665:. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the
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rather than an ethnic Jew who's lineage goes back to the Mid east.
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That this article is linked to from the image description page.
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870:<-- correct - he is related to a friend of me (german)
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Americans and not just people who happen to live. there.
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Taylor Swift 2 - 2019 by Glenn Francis (cropped) 3.jpg
2220:! Are you sometimes reading what you are writing? --
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2664:maker; first American sculptor ever to win the
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1637:I think it's the other way round: Instead of
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1746:Would you care to tell us your sources? --
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810:(Mennonite, Volga German?, Hutterite?)*
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1798:list of german-jewish-americans
1794:list of german-german-americans
857:Cyrus Hermann Kotzschmar Curtis
770:This article has been rated as
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26:This article was nominated for
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1956:08:50, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
1765:http://i.imgur.com/km1KP9L.png
1641:the ideology opined mostly is
1393:Pedigree (Jewish Encyclopedia)
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1860:17:45, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
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2389:As you can determine that?.
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440:Template:WikiProject Germany
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2639:Use of the term German-born
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1680:10:05, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
1639:only non-Jews can be german
978:William Walter Heffelfinger
106:must be removed immediately
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1846:are middle-eastern... but
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530:United States of America
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60:, 18 August 2007, see
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1455:See also the list at
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2434:List German-American
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902:William P. Fessenden
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517:United States portal
70:, 6 March 2007, see
2742:Commencing clean-up
2624:Neither is IMDB. --
1309:George Steinbrenner
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1006:Joseph Hergesheimer
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543:Articles Requested!
420:WikiProject Germany
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259:Here are some open
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2452:, adult performer.
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2551:— Preceding
2548:
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2526:Lauren Storm
2508:Tippi Hedren
2502:Teri Hatcher
2472:Aaron Carter
2437:
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1810:
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1772:— Preceding
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1470:Henri Büsser
1448:Arthur Waley
1409:Stephen Walt
1346:Peter Straub
1320:Rick Steiner
1231:
1155:David Reimer
1097:(1880-1958)*
1073:Joseph Leidy
1067:Fritz Leiber
1044:Don Kirshner
1011:Kirk Hinrich
973:Greg Hansell
952:Frank Gruber
927:2.241.198.43
921:— Preceding
914:James Garner
893:
841:(Streckfus)*
796:
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738:project page
727:
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554:Project Talk
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346:
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267:Meta-tasks:
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152:WikiProjects
117:
105:
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68:No consensus
67:
58:No consensus
57:
47:
37:
2673:– architect
2650:– architect
2579:—Preceding
2520:Nia Peeples
2413:—Preceding
2369:—Preceding
2343:—Preceding
2259:Sushi Leone
2236:—Preceding
2222:Sushi Leone
2193:—Preceding
2147:—Preceding
2102:—Preceding
2037:—Preceding
2018:64.252.28.1
1968:—Preceding
1925:explanation
1867:—Preceding
1844:Cochin Jews
1814:—Preceding
1666:—Preceding
1587:—Preceding
1554:—Preceding
1389:Wallerstein
1375:Carl Wieman
1304:Rod Steiger
1022:Eric Hoffer
878:88.73.78.66
872:—Preceding
863:Joan Diener
824:Raul Boesel
2774:Categories
2528:, actress.
2510:, actress.
2504:, actress.
2498:, actress.
2458:, actress.
2391:Ccrazymann
2257:Mengele.--
2218:DISGUSTING
1948:FairuseBot
1911:The image
1836:Ashkenazim
1514:Sheynhertz
1285:Jerry Sohl
966:family of
964:Handwerker
808:Rudy Wiebe
742:discussion
270:Place the
142:List-class
72:discussion
62:discussion
52:discussion
42:discussion
38:Overturned
2446:, singer.
2444:Anastacia
2214:SELECTION
1840:Sephardim
1495:Metzinger
1490:Jean Todt
1475:Haussmann
1450:(Schloss)
1106:Menninger
672:Biography
618:Biography
280:template
110:libellous
2754:Schazjmd
2662:monument
2658:sculptor
2581:unsigned
2553:unsigned
2534:Isinbill
2516:, actor.
2492:, actor.
2415:unsigned
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2135:Amalthea
2104:unsigned
2088:Amalthea
2039:unsigned
2009:Amalthea
1999:Amalthea
1970:unsigned
1917:fair use
1869:unsigned
1848:Mizrahim
1834:Neither
1816:unsigned
1774:unsigned
1729:unsigned
1668:unsigned
1589:unsigned
1568:contribs
1556:unsigned
1539:ARCHIVES
1366:(Jewish)
968:Nathan's
923:unsigned
874:unsigned
28:deletion
2700:Pipping
2302:Germans
1850:are. --
1800:article
1480:Helfter
1206:Schultz
774:on the
593:on the
461:on the
434:Germany
425:Germany
381:Germany
263:tasks:
235:on the
2761:(talk)
2297:German
1625:Hmains
1519:געשׁ״ך
1501:others
1342:people
1340:Straub
1208:people
1202:Schulz
1108:people
559:Alerts
148:scale.
48:Delete
2282:imars
2174:imars
1961:Jews?
1146:1868-
747:Lists
706:Lists
2733:talk
2704:talk
2660:and
2630:talk
2626:Ronz
2616:talk
2612:Ronz
2610:. --
2589:talk
2561:talk
2538:talk
2423:talk
2395:talk
2379:talk
2353:talk
2332:talk
2310:talk
2286:talk
2278:real
2274:real
2263:talk
2246:talk
2226:talk
2203:talk
2178:talk
2157:talk
2112:talk
2083:keep
2066:and
2047:talk
2022:talk
1978:talk
1954:. --
1895:talk
1877:talk
1856:talk
1842:nor
1838:nor
1824:talk
1782:talk
1752:talk
1737:talk
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1676:talk
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931:talk
882:talk
661:and
323:Iyer
2049:)
1181:) -
766:Low
585:Low
453:Low
351:or
227:Low
99:BLP
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1566:•
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