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splitting the page), and the media coverage available is significantly less, and isn't in the least way indicative of the significance of the accident. That has given this page an enormous bias toward modern accidents, belying the reality that 95% of all the significant accidents are missing, being deliberately excluded from here, but only because they fail to meet an incredibly pointless and artificial threshold. Perhaps for older aircraft it should be possible to link to a section of a page devoted to said accident? Alternatively, we split this page at 1945, and have less onerous criteria for incidents prior to then. Indeed, looking through most of the earlier accidents - most of those pages are barely even stubs, and should never have been made into separate articles, especially given the small size of almost all of the parent pages.
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1313:. Adding inclusion criteria to the lede is very common on many Knowledge lists. Including this information will communicate to readers that this list isn't alll- inclusive of every aviation mishap. And it will likely reduce the number of ineligible entries submitted - especially by users of mobile devices, who cannot see the notice above the edit box.
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1371:. For editors using conventional computers, a notice appears above the edit box with a link to the project page. But for mobile editors, there is no edit box, so they never see this notice. How should the inclusion criteria be referenced in a way that is accessable to all readers, and editors who are using mobile devices?
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says, "Generally, use past tense only for past events..." Present tense is generally favored in articles (e.g., "Obama and Trump are former US presidents," not "Obama and Trump were US presidents"), but not when describing events that have already happened. In the case of air crash articles, they are
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As I said, in many cases, there isn't sufficient detail for both the accident and the aircraft type to justify a stand-alone page, least of all for aircraft whose entire entry won't EVER be much longer than a stub (and I know because I have expanded or written dozens of such pages), regardless of the
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Your unnecessarily condescending reply that completely ignored what I wrote suggests a lack of reading comprehension. I already made suggestions as to what to do, above, and I also did NOT say there was no media coverage, or that there wasn't enough to determine significance, or that I had difficulty
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something? I know some history buffs like to write in the present tense about battles and such, and that's fine, but we have a standardized Manual of Style here. I've changed 2022-now, and I'm going to pause here. If someone can justify this deviation from the MOS, I'll revert my own tense edits.
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While the requirement for modern accidents to have their own standalone article makes sense due to the media intense environment that surrounded those incidents, this doesn't make any sense whatsoever for accidents prior to WW2, where the amount of detail, both for the aircraft itself (to justify
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Summoned by bot. Yes, the inclusion criteria should definitely be explained in the lead. No article should be dependent on projectspace for context. No problem with the stylistic instructions there, or for an edit notice to emphasize certain practical elements (e.g. it has an article), but the
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2024 had a mix of items in past and present tense, but the farther back I look, the more uniform the present tense becomes. Why is that? Historical events are in the past, not the present, and writing about them in the present tense affects readability and goes against the MOS. Am I missing
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If you have a look of the
Portuguese list, you will notice that the rules are different and this can cause confusion, I think this is terrible for Knowledge since the lists are translation but conceptually different and if so, must be renamed. Please have a look:
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1719:. In the absence of media coverage, how do you propose to gauge the significance of such an accident? (For what it's worth, media coverage often exists, it's just harder to find on the Internet without access to academic databases.) Lastly, perhaps
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Thanks for your thoughts, BillHPike. Do you know of a better way for an editor on a mobile device (cell phone, tablet) to know this page's inclusion criteria? These editors never see an edit box or the notice above this article's edit box.
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The rules here are quite clear. A aircraft must be able to seat 10 to be included on this list. You know something? The criteria, which have been in place over a decade, weren't even drawn up by me. Save your time for something
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context to understand what's in the article should be in the article. It's not like there's a big lead here already. If it takes a couple paragraphs to explain (preferably with an explanation of why), that seems ok to me. —
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What would be your reasoning for that? Is it because this article is getting unfeasibly long these days? There might be an argument for separating by decade, that would at least break it into about ten separate subarticles.
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1514:(Invited by the bot) I agree with Rhododendrites & Thryduulf including Rhododendrites's comments. I would add that projects don't own articles and can only influence, not dictate anything regarding articles.
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exists. There is a link to this page above the edit box when editing with a conventional computer, but mobile edits don't see this notice. The MOS suggests adding direct statements about list criteria in the lede
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actual importance of the event. You can see this in almost every accident listed prior to the 1930s - the accident should never have been split on any of them, except perhaps of the Fokker F.VII losing its wings.
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Okay Guys, you completely forgot a passenger plane crashed in March 17th, so guys, if you are reading this, make a new article about this plane, this plane overran a runway. Type of the plane is a Let L-410UVP.
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The criteria are more than just having a WP article. Aircraft size and that it is a commercial flight are also criteria. Notable people sections (of town or city articles) have <!-- --: -->
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in finding it, but rather that there isn't enough to justify more than a paragraph, and thus an entire stand alone page for the accident, and yes, I do know where to look. Massive difference.
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1103:. I think a summary of the inclusion criteria in the lede would reduce ineligible entries, and help to communicate that this list is not all-inclusive of every aviation mishap.
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There are more than a few more plane crashes in 2023 that yall have missed, so I am adding them. The entries are based on
Category:Aviation accidents and incidents in 2023.
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This one seems to be missing. I would add it, with a source citation, but the article meta editing text says not to do it without a full blown Wiki article in place.
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Knowledge and English Knowledge operate independtly from each other. There is zero need for the Portuguese and English lists to have the same criteria.
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describes the cases where bold face should be used. None of them apply here. It has no obvious significance and it looks horrendously ugly. So, I removed it all.
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Thanks everybody for the feedback. I have (for the fifth time) added the inclusion criteria to the lede. I think we have consensus from this discussion and from
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There is a clear consensus that the inclusion criteria should be defined in the article's lead and that it should not be dependent on projectspace for context.
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It seems that the point of contention is the use of a wikilink to the project page. I have updated the lede with inclusion criteria, but omitted this link.
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Sorry, no, it's been replaced. The significance is that in each sentence, the main target article is in bold, just like the Main Page. Cheers.
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always in the past. (We don't learn about them until they've happened. If they haven't happened, we don't know that they will happen, so it's a
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I've asked twice that you please discuss this matter. I'm going to go ahead and make the change I've described above, following the guidance in
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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Do not create links to user, WikiProject, essay or draft pages in articles, except in articles about
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The following
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Could comments not be used at the top of each year (so users editing a section see them) using <!-- --: -->
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Joy, 10 or more subarticles for me to put on watchlist so as to revert entries of accidents without articles.
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This article is full of present tense statements, as if these accidents and incidents are ongoing.
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For about the fifth time, you have no consensus for this. What you're doing isn't done around here.
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on
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it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a
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What changes to the inclusion criteria do you propose? More specifically, you write that
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includes relevant events that have a corresponding Knowledge article, and conform to the
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Trust that the discussion isn't even on the page it applies to - thank you for the link.
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A stand-alone list should begin with a lead section that summarizes its content and ...
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You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. —
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You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. —
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Thanks for the reply, WilliamJE, but I disagree. What I'm doing is supported by
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the inclusion of a link to the list criteria page in the lede, as stated above?
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You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. —
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1097:. The list is grouped by the year in which the accident or incident occurred.
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https://en.wikipedia.org/List_of_countries_and_dependencies_by_population
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This would be easier to extract information if it was a sortable table.
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List of accidents and incidents on commerical airliners grouped by year
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Graphs are unavailable due to technical issues. There is more info on
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Wreckage of the ill-fated Dana Flight 992 on the 3rd of June 2012.jpg
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issue.) This article needs a bit of fixing. I've done 2022-present.
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What do you mean by sortable table; could you elaborate a little?
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We have articles which will pare down this "too-long" listing. See
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There is no need for every link in the article to be in bold face.
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I found another plane accident/incident you guys forgot to add.
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at the top but editors routinely ignore them, don't read it etc.
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would be a better forum for discussion of this topic. Cheers.
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The rules in this list is mismatched with the Portuguese list
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list of accidents and incidents involving commercial aircraft
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An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect
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List of accidents and incidents involving commercial aircraft
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Could you please have a look? I don't think it makes sense.
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List criteria aren't explained in the lede part of articles.
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that the inclusion criteria should indeed be in the lead.
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Photo of McDonnell Douglas DC-10-30 LN-RK, Feb 1984.jpg
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I think this article should be separated by year like
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Add Cetraca Aviation Service March 17 2024 Disaster.
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I too want a table for easy sorting. Any objections?
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1581:https://pt.wikipedia.org/Lista_de_acidentes_aéreos
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550:This article has not yet been checked against the
1901:https://avherald.com/h?article=516d7275&opt=1
1763:Raleigh-Durham Airport CASA C-212 fatal incident
33:for general discussion of the article's subject.
1877:Dhc-8 and Cessna 172 mid air collision in Kenya
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1087:), and so I have proposed changing the lede to
1786:TLDR - parse out and reduce length suggestions
1441:said, and can't improve on how they said it.
650:assessing the article against each criterion.
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1099:. But now I seem to be finding myself in an
1078:It's not obvious to all users that the page
2051:Mid-importance Disaster management articles
1942:Semi-protected edit request on 31 July 2024
1906:https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/378591
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1118:Does anybody have a justifiable reason to
923:2019 Saha Airlines Boeing 707 crash 03.jpg
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1621:, is the complaint department really on
1481:, is the complaint department really on
1411:, is the complaint department really on
1296:, is the complaint department really on
1231:, is the complaint department really on
1024:, is the complaint department really on
809:Number of page views in the past 30 days
728:. If you wish to help, please visit the
627:the following code to the template call:
494:This article is within the scope of the
409:Template:WikiProject Disaster management
2046:List-Class Disaster management articles
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1896:Add 727 safe air crash in South Sudan
1883:2001:B07:A3B:23C1:B4AC:DB68:316D:43CB
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1796:List of airliner shootdown incidents
1355:The following discussion is closed.
718:This article is within the scope of
386:This article is within the scope of
297:This article is within the scope of
1437:Summoned by bot. I agree with what
623:To fill out this checklist, please
256:It is of interest to the following
23:for discussing improvements to the
1159:by reverting without discussing.—
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1832:Past tense needed for past events
1813:I have added more crashes to 2023
1534:The discussion above is closed.
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42:Put new text under old text.
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1477:. You're an involved editor.
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412:Disaster management articles
1972:to reactivate your request.
1960:has been answered. Set the
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1792:List of aircraft hijackings
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1473:Your close is improper per
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1055:. Please participate in
1039:Redirects for discussion
1248:@WilliamJE Please read
1059:if you wish to do so.
1057:the redirect discussion
800:related discussion area
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2005:"change X to Y" format
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1369:project page
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19:This is the
1725:Carguychris
1475:WP:RFCCLOSE
865:Dinosaur330
824:Phabricator
616:not checked
605:not checked
594:not checked
592:Structure:
583:not checked
572:not checked
509:task forces
148:free images
31:not a forum
2030:Categories
2013:Left guide
1962:|answered=
1929:CarterCart
1619:...William
1586:...William
1479:...William
1457:WP:SALLEAD
1409:...William
1307:WP:SALLEAD
1294:...William
1250:WP:SALLEAD
1229:...William
1085:WP:SALLEAD
1022:...William
734:discussion
503:open tasks
248:List-class
2001:Not done:
1838:MOS:TENSE
1771:Cheers.
1633:Pp.amorim
1623:the roof?
1598:Pp.amorim
1517:North8000
1496:Hadron137
1492:WilliamJE
1483:the roof?
1461:Hadron137
1443:Thryduulf
1413:the roof?
1373:Hadron137
1315:Hadron137
1298:the roof?
1279:Hadron137
1260:Hadron137
1233:the roof?
1210:Hadron137
1188:BillHPike
1161:Hadron137
1143:WilliamJE
1128:Hadron137
1105:Hadron137
1026:the roof?
943:Bold face
460:Accidents
88:if needed
71:Be polite
21:talk page
1747:- NiD.29
1702:- NiD.29
1641:contribs
1606:contribs
1594:unsigned
1393:OxonAlex
1198:contribs
1101:edit war
949:MOS:BOLD
873:contribs
861:unsigned
844:Tom Ruen
553:criteria
519:Aviation
455:Aviation
186:Archives
56:get help
29:This is
27:article.
1800:S. Rich
1490:Thanks
1120:support
826:and on
766:on the
430:on the
341:on the
154:WPÂ refs
142:scholar
1863:Dcs002
1847:Dcs002
1398:- talk
1342:Cunard
1225:Oppose
1175:Oppose
1124:oppose
992:Si Gam
838:Table?
254:scale.
126:Google
1966:|ans=
1956:This
1881:add
1617:else.
1089:This
990:. --
739:Lists
698:Lists
314:Death
305:Death
277:Death
169:JSTOR
130:books
84:Seek
2017:talk
1983:talk
1933:talk
1913:talk
1887:talk
1867:talk
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1823:talk
1804:talk
1794:and
1777:talk
1751:talk
1729:talk
1706:talk
1686:talk
1656:talk
1652:SSSB
1637:talk
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1565:talk
1522:talk
1500:talk
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1377:talk
1346:talk
1319:talk
1309:and
1283:talk
1264:talk
1214:talk
1194:talk
1177:per
1165:talk
1155:for
1132:talk
1109:talk
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1012:talk
996:talk
988:this
972:talk
957:talk
934:talk
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506:and
162:FENS
136:news
73:and
1964:or
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