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since that time. For example: Iran is given the date 2600 BC, the time of the establishment of the
Elamite kingdom in that area, even though the Elamites are a different nation from the Persians living there now (completely different language). India is given the date 2500 BC - the date of the Indus Valley Civilization, though no one knows if it had any cultural or genetic connection to modern-day Indians, and though it had lost its sovereignty several times in the interim period. Most recently to the British for 100 years. Japan got the date 660 BC although is mostly considered legendary. And there are more examples like this in the list. By the same logic, the "date of acquisition of sovereignty" of Israel should be set at the establishment of the first Jewish kingdoms in the holy land which was about 930 BC (according to latest estimates). This kingdoms were called Israel and Judea. Their historicity is undisputed. And their connection to modern Israel is obvious as well - same languages, same name, same religion, genetic descent etc.
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were these states sovereign under any definition in those dates?; did their alleged sovereignty continue uninterrupted from those dates till now?; is there even a continuation of any national identity in those cases from then till now?; Are those dates accepted by historians or considered legendary? In this list of states we can find for example the following states: Algeria, Ethiopia, Morocco, Afghanistan, Armenia, China, India, Iran, Iraq, Japan, Korea, Kuwait, Mongolia, Albania, Belarus, Bulgaria, Croatia, Germany, Hungary, Norway, Poland, Serbia, Ukraine, Georgia, and maybe some others I missed.
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were equivalent to the latter, and it is not -- particularly if a failed revolution is involved. I think, without being able to cite specifics, that this article has a number of problems relating unclear definition of terms as used here. I do not think it is clear, for purposes of this article, what a "sovereign state" is and how/when, for purposes of this article, it is considered to have been "formed". I haven't thought any of that out well enough to suggest improvements.
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before that, and that is that the article contains a second set of tables that have a column titled "Historical notes", which summarizes the entire history and changes in sovereignty of each land. This makes the columns of ""acquisition of sovereignty" and "Dates of acquisition of sovereignty" (in the first set of tables) completely redundant and superfluous as well as contentious. So I'll delete it later today.
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to pre-history. This is a pointless and selective approach when the current forms of government bare essentially no resemblance to those ancient states. If we are to seriously consider these dates/claims we also need to seriously consider all dates of first settlement by humans as being traceable to the modern state which is not of course not at all the purpose of this article.
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1482:- Second, it's a contentious/propaganda tool (is modern Cambodia closely tied to the Khmer empire listed? Is an ancient Israel connected to a modern one? Vegan mentioned language but that was resurrected in the 19th century. Why is Egypt only 1922, even though Coptic is still used in some communities? etc, etc)
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1. On the contrary. There is more continuity between 930BC Israel and 2024 Israel than between 2600BC Iran and 2024 Iran and between 2500BC India and 2024 India and 202BC Algeria and 2024 Algeria. For the sake of brevity, I'll make here a detailed comparison between the
Israeli and Iranian case only.
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I have noticed that for countries of ancient nations in this list the "date of acquisition of sovereignty" is the date of establishment of the earliest kingdoms even if that happened thousands of years ago, even if they are of a different nation and culture, and even if that sovereignty was disrupted
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I tried to delete this column, but it turns out to be very difficult to do without messing up the formatting of the tables, so I gave it up as not worth the trouble. I agree to your suggestion as long as it is done CONSISTENTLY, and I'll watch for it. Anyway just a small correction. Hebrew was never
1404:
In practice, my view is that any date more than a few hundred years needs some very very close scrutiny since it is rare for a nation state to not change drastically and/or be conquered/annexed in that large an amount of time. I would guess dates more than 1000 years old would essentially disappear.
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With regards to your question then my view is any break in continuity for the existence of these states resets the clock on any date in the article. If a country has been part of numerous kingdoms and conquered many times over centuries it cannot have a date of sovereignty thousands of years earlier
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I think any discussion on dates regarding modern states needs to have clear direct continuity in the existence of that state. As mentioned it's essentially meaningless to regard states such as Greece, Iceland, Israel, Italy etc as having dates of "current form of government" or otherwise dating back
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On the one hand the we have a group of modern states whose "date of
Acquisition of sovereignty" is given hundreds or even thousands of years ago, despite the fact that many aspects of these dates can be disputed, such as: whether the modern concept of sovereignty even existed that far in the past?;
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While i certainly also have concerns over claims for "date of acquisition of sovereignty" dating back thousands of years through many different eras, as others have said Israel has a very clear and prolonged break in its existence as a state. I would be more inclined to delete the column altogether.
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included the dates you mention it would then become very hard to argue against their inclusion. This would obviously not serve the purpose of the article which is to list the dates of the origin of modern sovereign states rather than to make a list of the dates of first human settlements in regions.
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I don't think it's correct to say that the United
Kingdom's current form of government was formed in 1922, with the independence of (most of the island of) Ireland. The government before and after 1922 was functionally the same, with the same constitution, practices, etc, just with a large chunk of
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The other alternative is to move the first group to the status of the second one. That is, to decide that we don't want to get into all the controversies and disputes regarding ancient past, and just give the dates of the modern formal recognition of sovereignty which would mean something like the
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On the other hand we have several modern states which have the same claim to have their "Acquisition of sovereignty" date to be hundreds or thousands years ago as the ones in the first group, and yet are given only a recent date in the 20th or 19th century. This list includes for example: Greece,
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4. Religions: The religion of Israel now is basically the same religion as it was in 930BC - Judaism. On the other hand, the religion of Iran today is completely different from the religion of Elam which was a polytheistic religion. Even the later religion of the
Persian empires predating Islam -
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OK, but I'm not focused on Israel here. This article is not a big interest item for me, but it's on my watchlist because of the messy situation regarding declaration of independence and acquisition of sovereignty (examples: Philippines, and the U.S.). The former generally gets celebrated as if it
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As you said in you later comment here "I would be more inclined to delete the column altogether". Since I raised that possibility here several months ago nobody objected to deleting this column altogether, we can say there is a consensus about it. Also I have noticed recently something I missed
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If we were to include such early dates for states with such profound breaks in continuity, through massive changes in rule and demographics and that ceased to exist for thousands of years then almost any date for a state right back to it's first human settlement is open to being included. Having
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I'll ignore your disrespectful tone for the time being. But obviously if "Iran in 2600 BC"="Iran now", and "India in 2500 BC"="India now", and "Japan in 660 BC"="Japan now" and "Algeria of 202 BC"="Algeria now" and "Armenia in 880 AD"="Armenia now" then all the more so "Israel in 930 BC"="Israel
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I have no idea what the OR tag refers to. It was put there years before I got involved in this article. However you can rest assured that I don't intend to do any OR on this article. There is absolutely no need for it from my POV, as everything I'm going to add to the article will be based and
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The second table lists its date of last subordination as 1266, not 1066. I think this is a typo as nothing else on the page seems to give an event for that year. (In 1265 the Magna Carta was reaffirmed, does not see: to fit). I will change it to 1066, but if that's not what it should be please
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The fact that there were independent
Israelite/Jewish kingdoms in the land of Israel in the first millennium BC is established history and not a myth. That apart, an AfD is an extreme measure, and I'm not in favor of it at the moment (unless we try the other options first and they prove to be
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Simply put if the sovereignty has not been continuously maintained through the state since the date listed the date should not be included. In the case of Israel, the modern state has not had sovereignty over its territory since 930BC so should not be included. If you feel this is unfair, as
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5. Genetics: The Jews are genetic descendants of the ancient
Israelites. This was proven by several genetic studies (see below). The modern-day Iranians may be genetically related genetically to the ancient Elamites. But maybe not. So far I haven't found any scientific research on this
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kingdom is completely different from modern
Persian and belongs to a completely different family of its own. Almost nobody in Iran today can read or understand Elamite (or even ancient Persian texts from BC times). You need to be a highly trained archeologist or linguist to do
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territory lost. The Acts of Union between
Scotland and England(+Wales) was what actually formed the current system of government. An argument could be made that the current form of government relies on a Prime Minister, so then the current form of government would be 1721.
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A 2000+ year break in a states sovereignty or even existence does not meaningfully serve the purpose of the article. Yes, the modern state of Israel has made many efforts to re-establish old customs and history but it is in no way a continuation of the ancient kingdom.
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a dead language. It's true that there were long period where it didn't serve as an everyday language, but it never ceased to be a literary language, and was often the only way that Jews from different countries could communicate with each other.
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The Israel thing is just national myth, that apart, some people are never going to be happy with a list like this because nuance cannot easily be reduced to a simple list. I would just AfD the article, with a possible outcome being a merge with
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I'm not talking here about OTHER articles. I'm talking here about the internal consistency of THIS article. If you don't want to discuss the internal consistency of this article then your opinion is biased and should be rejected.
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date of the establishment of the Liege of
Nations or later, or something like that. This would effectively mean deleting the column of "date of Acquisition of sovereignty" and "Acquisition of sovereignty" from all the tables.
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887:-- I am traveling in the non-urban Philippines, my laptop died and is not easily replaceable. I am poor at editing WP by cellphone so i must defer comment even though I would like to opine on this here/now.
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3. Languages: The language in Israel now is basically the same as it was in 930BC - Hebrew. Children in elementary schools in Israel today can read and understand the Hebrew Bible. On the other hand, the
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version of that state and update the dates accordingly. I'm a fan of the latter here, since the chart seems to capture the important bits (e.g. UK sovereignty 1707, date of current government = 1922)
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1485:-Third, it's misleading. The article is about modern nation-states, and it's absurd for a user to see that Israel has been around since 1300bce while Egypt appears to only exist from 1922 onward.
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mentioned I'd be open to discussing applying this to other states but i think continuity of the state in some meaningful form is essential for this list to make any sense or be manageable.
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Much of what i'm going to say has been raised already, so I wanted to make this thread to summarise the changes and see if there were any objections. Proposed changes:
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My preferred way would be to raise the second group to the same level of the first one. If there is enough support for this way I am willing to take the task on myself.
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It's a good thing I don't base my worldview on the opinions of incorrect wiki editors. Although, I don't see any evidence to suggest that your statement is true...
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The OR tag has been up there since 2019, if "other options" involves yet more OR, pass. So ancient history, national myths and the rest all binworthy afaiac.
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Reconciling these issues isn't trivial given the myriad of ways governments are constituted and the major and minor ways states can shift over time.
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is completely different from Islam and its few thousand remaining believers are somewhat persecuted and just barely tolerated in today's Iran.
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The UK's situation is unclear, but regardless I don't think picking 1922 as the date of the current form of government makes much sense
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There is an inconsistency in the way ancient nations/states are treated in this article, with no apparent justification whatsoever.
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about "Israel's first acquisition of sovereignty", I want to point a major inconsistency in this article that needs to be resolved.
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2. Name: The name of Israel is the same as it was in 930 BC - Israel. On the other hand, the name of Iran today is different from
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As I said I moved some countries from the the second group to the first, and I plan to move some more. Any comments so far?
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This is to make it more explicit that this article is a list of current nation-states and not meant as a historical look
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correct me but also add an entry to the right hand column explaining what important transition did happen on that date.
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had said they would do). Or I can add text to clarify that it's explicitly referring to the creation of the
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on Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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https://www.nationalgeographic.com/premium/article/dna-from-biblical-canaanites-lives-modern-arabs-jews
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Doesn't look like it. There had been many changes in this page over time. Look at the history page.
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2. Rename article to 'List of (modern, current, something) sovereign states by date of formation'
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Israel's first acquisition of sovereignty should be around 930 BC to match other ancient nations
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Please help fix the broken anchors. You can remove this template after fixing the problems. |
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referenced to established historical research from existing reliable secondary sources.
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Myanmar, Philippines, Sri Lanka, Vietnam, Yemen, Israel and maybe some others I missed.
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Major inconsistency in this article with regard to "Date of acquisition of sovereignty"
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when adding content and consider tagging or removing unsourced information.
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https://genomebiology.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/gb-2009-10-1-r7
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If you wish I can make detailed comparisons in the other cases as well.
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This article links to one or more target anchors that no longer exist.
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1. Either remove 'Date of acquisition of sovereignty' (which i think @
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Well, the fact is that this claims stay here for a very long time...
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Yeah, because most people are afraid to just correct things on here
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states, but does include several states with limited recognition."
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since it has obviously not been sovereign since that time.
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https://www.cell.com/cell/fulltext/S0092-8674(20)30487-6
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The UK along with its Government were created in 1801.
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Solving this inconsistency can go in one of two ways:
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1461:- First, the top of the article clearly states:
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18:Talk:List of sovereign states by formation date
947:Absolute nonsense, Israel now != Israel then.
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36:List of sovereign states by date of formation
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1079:Selfstudier
992:Selfstudier
978:Selfstudier
949:Selfstudier
810:CicolasMoon
606:WPCountries
159:free images
42:not a forum
1529:Categories
1375:Wtmitchell
1241:Wtmitchell
924:Wtmitchell
903:Wtmitchell
868:Wtmitchell
399:List-class
1407:Nickmista
1314:futile).
1221:Nickmista
930:(earlier
478:Countries
469:countries
428:Countries
377:citations
99:if needed
82:Be polite
32:talk page
1512:Vegan416
1467:include
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1034:subject.
964:Vegan416
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655:Archives
375:Include
197:Archives
67:get help
40:This is
38:article.
1469:extinct
1451:current
1012:of the
836:undated
770:before.
763:before.
756:before.
709:14 days
563:Cleanup
514:history
359:dispute
276:Process
230:14 days
165:WP refs
153:scholar
962:now".
927:(talk)
826:Mrflip
617:assess
405:scale.
279:Result
137:Google
1017:that.
597:Other
583:Stubs
524:purge
519:watch
180:JSTOR
141:books
95:Seek
1516:talk
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1014:Elam
1002:Elam
982:talk
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737:Tip:
613:talk
601:add
509:edit
294:Kept
273:Date
173:FENS
147:news
84:and
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187:TWL
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