Talk:Modern Age of Comic Books

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comic shop, along with Diamond being the illegally monopoly and God of the the current comic industry. Perhaps one can say that the Modern Age ended and the Diamond Age started when Diamond started selling comics for everybody in Late 1996, around the time of Marvel's Heroes Reborn and DC's Superman in a blue jumpsuit. Anyways, the graphic novels aren't selling, nor is the manga, according to stockholder data listed for Sears (who owns K-Mart, who owns Waldensbooks, who owns Borders) and Barnes & Nobles. Comics, and sci-fi in general, lost them hundreds of millions over the last few years, and they reported this recently, especially with the economic collapse that might be happening. I know a few Borders I visited in the LA area have cut their shelf-space for manga and comics to a few measly shelves in the sci-fi section.

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control clamped Marvel's creativity, the existence of independent publishers allowed some creators to create groundbreaking stories, especially at First Comics, with Mike Grell's Jon Sable Freelance, Chaykin's American Flagg. In 1985, First Comics had four series in the top ten in the CBG awards. The use of the panel as a TV screen later used by Miller in Dark Knight was created by Chaykin in American Flagg. Later, Chaykin, Grell and Truman (all from First) were going to step up maturity in stories and redefine/re-energize long-time characters with Longbow Hunters, Blackhawk and Hawkworld. Most top writers of today came from outside the mainstream (Bendis, Morrison, Brubaker) and this applies also to Straczinsky, Guggenheim and Meltzer. See also what I say in th talk page of Bronze Age.

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for visual arts and design. To an art theorist or historian, most comics, as a visual art, are modern. Certainly superhero comics, since there beginnings in the 30s, are modern. The radical changes in the 80s, from Alan Moore for example, would from this perspective be post-modern. I think the use of modern in this article, as coined by Overstreet I assume, comes from a conflation of 'modern' with 'contemporary'. That said, I understand the naming is internal to the medium and corresponds to the gold/silver/etc nomeclature. But is 'modern' the best/only name we can find referenced? If so, and if this age really covers everything from the 80s or so the present day, then something like 'contemporary age of comics' could be a more appropriate and perhaps NPOV title.

2688:, on this one. I've heard the term in general usage for years, unlike things like "Chromium" or "Tin" or "Aluminum" or whatever. I hear Curly's argument that not all comics were "dark," but no term can possibly encompass everything in a category; I'm sure there were comics in the Golden Age that were less than golden in terms of both quality and sales. The fact is that there was a pervasive mood in the highest-selling, highest-profile comics of the time, and numerous knowledgeable writers in the niche press have used the term. I think whether we like the term or not — I'm not wild for it, to be honest — I think we have to recognize that it 1095:

mainstream in the modern age. What about Cerebus, Strangers in Paradise and other long-going creator owned-series? There is also a point. It's a bit too close to the present to state that the modern age is still continuing. There are already terms for current comics like neo-silver. This started with "1963", "Marvels" and Alan Moore's "Supreme". For instance "Infinite Crisis" (restoring pre-crisis continuity) could be the marker of a new age for DC. Because it's too close to know yet, I think we should not include events from before 2006 or even from before 2000 in this article. --

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that example, I'm not sure every single year of comics has been part of a milestone era. Also, "Golden" "Silver" and "Bronze" arose organically among professionals and fans, reflecting (probably) traditional golden and silver anniversaries and gold, silver and bronze Olympics medals. I'm not sure there are any other metal/other strata (other than traditional platinum, for 60 years, and diamond for 75 years) that come readily to mind in general usage and agreement.

3590:(1996-1997) can be seen as the end or the beginning of an era. It only lasted for about a year, and primarily affected two of Marvel's team-books (the Avengers and the Fantastic Four). The X-books were largely unaffected, though several of their titles were canceled by the end of the decade. The reboot of the Spider-books in 1999, and their declining popularity due to poorly received changes may have had more lasting effects in Marvel's profitability. 240: 2989:

little precendent of stories in the comic book form. By the end of the Golden Age (pick an arbitrary year—say, 1955 or 1959) and pretty much all the major components that make a comic book a comic book are all in place, built on the precedents laid down by giants like Eisner, Kirby, Barks and Kurtzman, as well as hundreds of other journyman practitioners fumbling around until they found an effective way to communicate. That there is at

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As on the Silver Age article it might be we can include a list of most in-demand issues if we can similarly source it. So yes I agree the list of comics should be deleted if someone can add a better and sourced list then they can do so in the future. Same goes with the creators, although I the Silver Age list was split off it is a poor article and should probably be deleted so we might as well be bold and skip the splitting altogether. (

831:, which together cover eras from the Silver Age on up, must have something to say about all this, to name just two reliable journalistic sources we could cite. Let's maybe start with finding a cite for the "Copper Age" (a term for which I have not found widespread consensus, BTW) "clearly start" in either 1980 or 1981 with those two cases you mention. I'm taking your comments absolutely seriously and I am asking in all seriousness. -- 1151: 80: 53: 345: 90: 3569:

who you ask) as the "Iron Age." Then 2000 through 2008 (when the Iron Man film was released) as the "Digital Age." Then 2008 - Present as the Modern Age, or in some circles the "Cinematic Age." I think some variation of this will become standard once history catches up with itself, and also, of course, when someone of academic or industry authority publishes a source we can use.

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argue that it definitely ended. There has been some backlash against the darkness during the past decade (for example, when Mark Waid said some creators were sick and tired of darkness while leading up to Infinite Crisis), and yet at least one major company's editors have actively directed writers to make characters act grimmer and have less fun lately.

2436:, and in this case, given the term is in widespread enough use to have a book titled for it, published by what is certainly the largest niche publisher of books about comics history and comics professionals, I don't believe we would be shaping the terminology. It exists, it's established in books, and we would simply be reporting on a term in use. -- 2916:, but no one was writing about them (outside of the Peter-Mary Jane wedding stunt at Shea Stadium and the black costume). Cultural impact has to be considered, and the general impression of comics in mainstream media at that time really was one of "grim and gritty" heroes such as Wolverine and the Punisher, and of the brutal "death of Superman." 2836:

Not to be pedantic, but just so not to be misunderstood, I agree with you, of course, that "The 'Golden Age' in no way refers to the quality of what was produced at the time." It refers to the massive sales. My metaphoric point included quantity: Just as not every comic in what some call the Dark Age

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proliferation, at that) of genres than what was seen during the Golden Age–after the implosion of the superhero fad following WWII, no genre could be said to come close to domination. It was also a time when girls read comic books just as much as boys. At any angle you look at it, the Golden Age is

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after it reached GA. Basically the lists of key titles/issues and creators (and probably the timeline) should be removed - the lists are just opinion and a magnet for original research and the important ones should be included in the text in prose format that allows us to include context and sources.

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Actually, no one editor can declare "these are the dates we're going with." Knowledge (XXG) works on consensus. And as a truly longtime collector — since 1968, so my credentials, I think, are in order — I've never heard of the Golden Age lasting past about 1949, and there's no consensus as to the end

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There is no reason given in the comic. All that is stated is that Mr. Mind destroys many of them and 52 are left. It is a big enough number so that it can include formerly recognized earths as well as creatively leaving room for new ones. It was obviously chosen in reference to the name of the series

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Does anyone remember (or did anyone figure out) why there were 52 earths in the multiverse? I think this would be a really neat fact to put in the timeline with the entry, and I'm pretty sure the reason was somewhere in the 52 series, but either I never figured it out from the clues or I've forgotten

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Again, I must stress that this article needs to deal with the rise of Diamond, the pyramid scheme they force sellers to buy from them, with is $ 50,000 a year give or take, and how the comic industry is in rapid decline and falling apart at the seams, and how the comic book shops are all going out of

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Can't say I've heard of the Chromium Age, though yes, I believe the Bronze Age ended circa the mid-1980s. There may not be an "age" for all parts of comics history — there's a gap between Golden and Silver, for example, between circa 1950 and 1956. "Age" denotes historic, landmark periods, and as in

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Brightest Day. It's when DC and Marvel started tailoring their comics with an eye toward Trade Paperback rereleases. Change was already in the air as early as 1995, with Zero Hour, Marvels, and Kingdom Come; but when Joe Q and Dan Didio took over their respective companies, the changes kicked into

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The most commonly held view in modern fandom is that the Dark age covers from the publishing of Watchmen and The Dark Knight Returns to D.C.'s "Kingdom Come" which openly attacked the direction that comes where going in at the time. The Modern age is more nostalgic for the Silver age. Therefore I

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There are some notable sources, such as Peter Coogan (author of Superhero: The Secret Origin of a Genre) who say the Iron Age has ended and we are in a new Renaissance Age. While I'm not saying there should be a new article (right now that's only 1 source), the article portrays it as fact that every

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Let's say that GA went on for 22 years, SA went on for 16, & BA went on for 10. In the future, when Modern Age comics are too old to be considered Modern Age, will they be Brass, Iron, or Stone Age? & when is the cut-off line? The comics I read in the 90s were kid-stuff to what's out now, so

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I also think that this article's attempt to use "Modern Age" to cover everything from the 1970's onwards is absurd. It seems like the article is written by someone who doesn't like the phrase "Bronze Age" and is grasping at straws to justify not having an age between Silver and Modern. Much of the

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First, lets be honest, this page is about an era typically called the 'copper', 'iron', and occasionally 'dark' age of comics. Its no longer the modern age, the new modern age starts sometime in teh mid-90s, although I'm sure I'm not qualified to render definitive judgement on when, but my guess is

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I think the dates listed for the 'modern age' are substantially wrong, and i think you key issue list even disagrees with them (although I'm inclined to agree with it). Half your 'modern' keys are from 1981, and they really are keys for this era (whatever we choose to call it), so clearly your 1986

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But the monopoly of Diamond Comics didn't begin until the mid nineties, I remember buying my comics using the Advance Comics of Capital in the early nineties before Diamond an his Previews became the only way to buy your books. So, if the modern age beging in mid-eigthies and the Diamond momopoly in

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Yes, that's what I think. The age that began in the mid-eighties (Dark Age, Iron Age, Modern Age or whatever) finished in the late-nineties/early-00s. Or are we suposed to call the Modern era the period from the mid-eighties to the end-of-times? This article began considering the Modern Age begining

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Debate all you all want, but it was in a few Overstreet price guides like this. Overstreet also acknowledges that the Modern Age of Comics started when DC Comics adopted the bullet logo (the 1980s DC logo). Now, I agree with an older post that this article is written, well, poorly. I mean, the sheer

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It's too long. There has definitely been significant developments in the comic industry since 1985 that differentiate between then and now. I have heard amateur comics historians refer to the period from 1985 through the end of "Heroes Reborn" (or the beginning of the Ultimate Universe, depending

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I did to that very page earlier this year, it still suffers from most of the problems I listed above. For instance, its embarrassing lack of references. Of the 21 inlines listed in the reference section, 14 (two thirds!) were added by me. The last five entire sections are entirely cite-free. In

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Definitely a "no" to making a "Dark Age" article. It's very subjective, very biased, and isn't in common currency. And I've also seen the term Modern Age widely applied to comics from the 1980s onward. What's important to keep in mind is that the idea of "ages" of comics came about haphazardly, and

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This article is riddled with factual errors and reads more like a 9th grader's "anything you like" research project than a well-written and sourced wiki article should. I've corrected a couple errors here and there over the last little while, but someone with the time and inclination could do a lot

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I agree, that to call the whole thing Modern age is ludicrous. Watchmen and DKR happened more than 20 years ago and the tone after Zero Hour and specially Kingdom Come and Marvels has nothing to do with that. There's a gray era in the middle and then, the period after Quiver, Hush, Batman/Superman,

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The timeline starts at 1970 because the original article seems to have been written by someone who doesn't recognize the existence of the Bronze Age (which runs roughly 1970-1985). The statement that the period begins in the mid-80's was added/changed by someone who does recognize the Bronze Age.

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and the post-crisis revamps, and saw the rise of "grim and gritty" stories for both DC and Marvel. Some would argue that the Modern Age has ended, with the present (post-modern?) age beginning with the fading of the grim-and-gritty style, and/or with the end of the collector-driven comics market of

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What I've just written is reality. If you can't believe this is happening in the Modern Age of Comics, then you're not actually into comics. Just type Diamond Comic Distributors suck into Google and see how many people and stores have been hurt by Diamond since 1996. In the Las Vegas area, here are

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As for the "graphic" novels and trade paperbacks, which are also a direct result of Viz, Tokyopop, and a few other now-defunct manga companies publishing led to a misunderstanding by the product-buyers of major book retailers, and have since, with comics shops big and small, led to the death of the

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Starts in cover-date of June of 1938, with Superman's first appearance in Action Comics #1. Many titles started in this era are still developed, printed, and sold today from DC, Marvel, Archie and Gemstone. Most books published in this age are lost forever because of the war drives for paper during

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article, sure. Any further elaboration would be best kept to the articles of the books and characters that took part in the "Dark Age". Something along the lines of an explanation of the trend, tagged with something like: "Wizard magazine and uthors such as Joe Bleaux have called this trend "the

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I referred to the "Dark Age" thing in my own book, and yet I'm reluctant to split it off into a separate page. Unless the phrase first gains more widespread use, we'd be shaping the terminology instead of reporting on it. I think it will catch on, but that thought does not make it so. It's hard to

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Like many others on this page, I'm not convinced the modern age is the best name for this period. It seems the Overstreet Price Guide is the only reference for it? Is this the best source available? In cultural and historical terms, the modern age (modernist period) covers most of the 20th century

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Perhaps the focus is on Marvel and DC comics because the "Ages" have, from the beginning, been attributed almost exclusively to superhero comics, which make up the lion's share of the comic market. I do agree that the "greed factor" that plagued the industry during to 90's and the effect it had on

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I feel it is. Horror comic books are big business these days, for example, as are many other alternative genres besides just superheros. There is one brief mention about horror comics, but even then it's in the context of Marvel's 70s entry into the genre. There is no mention of IDW at all. No

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If I knew enough, I'd update the article myself, but I do note that Warren Ellis, a fairly prolific author, hasn't been mentioned here at all. Also, I wonder why Science Fiction exists only as a footnote on Swamp Thing. Everything I read I'd catagorise as Science Fiction, if I knew more of how it

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I agree not all books during the period were dark. I agree there were other issues important to the period, like speculators and creators rights. An article about the period would definately need to include material about those issues. But the only common name I see for the 1980-2000ish period is

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I have to strongly disagree about the Golden Age being primarily about sales. It was a time of experimentation and consolidation of forms and vacabulary of the American comic book. Just take a look at that frist Superman story from 1938—awkward, and in the form of a comic strip, as there was so

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The "Golden Age" in no way refers to the quality of what was produced at the time. In fact, I'm sure there are plenty of people that would argue the average quality of writing and artwork were superior in the Silver Age, but nobody would dream of renaming the Silver Age tot he Golden Age. It is

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I think these (especially the first one) are good indications that there was such a thing as a Dark Age of comics (that has ended), and that this article should be split to reflect this. The only issue would be deciding on an end date, but that has been an issue regarding the beginning and end of

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Agreed. By my reckoning, the transition from Iron to Modern Age took place when Joe Quesada took the helm at Marvel (2000) and Dan Didio took over at DC (2002). It's when DC started bringing back dead Silver Age heroes (starting with a Kryptonian Supergirl, then Hal Jordan as Green Lantern, and

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Currently, in the Las Vegas, NV, area, I think only Alternate Reality Comics is the only shop making a profit and still in business. Since I don't live in Las Vegas, I wouldn't know if any other shops are still operating. I'm also unsure of Phoenix, Los Angeles, and San Diego areas as well. But a

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The Way I've heard it it's Gold 1938-1954 Silver 1954-1970 Bronze 1970-1986 Dark 1986-1996 Modern 1996-present. My theory is the current era will be called the "Post-Modern Age of Comics" in the future. Simply because Grant Morrison and other top writers out now love to inject all kinds of Post

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Your comments were very useful. I have edited the page to include mentions of Dark Horse in 1992 with Star Wars: Dark Empire and 1993 with Comics Greatest World. I mention Warren Ellis in 1994 and David Lapham's Stray Bullets in 1995. Although I am not enough of an expert on alternative comics, a

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bronze age transition, not all books made the transition at the same time. But to hold up Miller's The Dark Knight Returns as the start of the era when its just the culmination of a trend that started with Days of Future Past (and arguably the Dark Phoenix Saga's end 4 issues earlier) is kind of

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Please note that this is one man's perspective, but it is a starting point. I'm suggesting this article needs to be re-written, then merged into one large article covering the history and overall of American Comic Books, instead of being four links deep or so from the regular comic book article.

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The Modern Age, Dark Age, or whatever starts in the mid-1980's. I've never seen the term used to refer to the period from 1970 onwards, and only sections 1.1 and a single sentence from section 1.2 have anything to do with the period before 1985. Even then, most things that happened before 1985

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No new major characters created in the last 20 years by either of the two major publishers. Writers don't want to invest their talent in creating characters they know they won't own. This is why the companies are stuck in a cycle of using the same old characters created over 50 years ago by poor

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I totally agree. The changes at Marvel and DC didn't happen in a vacuum. Actually, what marks the Modern Age is that the content of the story comes from outside influences. Miller's stories are influenced by manga and Eisner. Moore is influenced by Underground and Harvey Kurtzmann. While editor

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Furthermore, manga is a direct result of the Modern Age of Comics, and needs to be addressed. Companies like Antarctic, Viz, Dark Horse, and even Marvel did anime. Marvel has, within their line, the Marvel Mangaverse. This article seems hasty and actual did very little to remind me of anything.

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You are absolutely right. I have heard the Modern Age called the Diamond Age as well because of the influence of Diamond and it deserves to be called the Diamond Age. The real issue is that with all the changes occurring due to Infinite Crisis and Civil War, is this the beginning of a new age?

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I have other issues with basing these things purely on sales figures, but I'll save that ammunition for another day. I'll reiterate: the "Dark Age" was significant—not writing about it would be a huge mistake—but labeling the whole period in an article title that way would be strictly POV.

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I'd never heard it called the Chromium Age either, until I found that orphan. "Dark Age" is what I hear most. I've also heard "Iron age," although I don't care for it. I've always taken "Modern" to roll forward when discussing trends. I believe fine art is the exception to that rule, not the

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It deals only with comics issues and characters and omits events in the backstage like "speculations", "variant covers", new comics companies, conventions, magazines. For instance the new fandom movement characterizes the Silver Age. Creator-owned series started in the Silver Age but became

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Even trends you claim are from this age definitively predate 1986. New Mutants is from 1984, and is already rather late in the 'minority super heroes' trend. Wolverine's first mini-series is 1982. Secret Wars starts in 1984. A start date for the age later than 1981 simply isn't tenable.

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Re. 'the Diamond Age' and this sentence: "the Diamond Age of Comic Books (suggested by Scott McCloud, because of the new diversity found in the medium)": I'd have to look up an actual reference for this, but I was of the impression that the 'diamond' in 'the Diamond Age' actually refered to

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of an article, but keep it out of the article title. As Tenebrae says above, there really is no pressing need to label "eras", anyways. And as I said way, way above, we really, really, really don't need to "spin off" any new articles when the article-as-is is already in such deplorable

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Well, as I've been saying all along, I don't see the need for a split in the first place. I think a split should be contingent on the article being cleaned up and properly referenced. Then, and only then, if the article's length proves too unwieldy, should a split even be considered.

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The creator section feels slightly more valid. One problem with the "key issues" section lies in its very fundamental reasoning. In USA the whole period seemed like a process where the sales of magazines declined and the market evolved to be oriented more into graphic novels and manga.

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Agreed! There should be two articles - one for bronze and one for modern. Whoever wrote this first got confused. The bronze age runs from the early 70's to (well it varies depending on which company, but the articles can reflect this). The modern age runs from the early/mid-80s to now.

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All this said, I'm not sure we even need a label for comics past the Bronze Age. People talk about the Golden Age of Advertising, for example, without there being a Silver Age or a Bronze Age of Advertising. But it never hurts to look at something from as many angles as possible.

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This article needs the B-Class checklist filled in to remain a B-Class article for the Comics WikiProject. If the checklist is not filled in by 7th August this article will be re-assessed as C-Class. The checklist should be filled out referencing the guidance given at

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stores that have been defunct recently: Dreamwell Comics, Kool Kollectibles, Woody's World, Comic Oasis, Dark Tower (has to move from location to location), and Gameworld. Alternative Reality and Cosmic Comics are is hard financial straits, and may not survive the year.

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TvTropes is more of an unacademic fan oriented wiki, however this is not necessarily a bad thing, as it's grounded more in the fan perceptions, and therefore tends to have a better understanding of the trends in media than a non fan or outsider would tend to have.

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The key issues lists almost exclusively Marvel comics, and only lists comics for the first appearance of some once-popular characters. No mention of trends, writers, artists, etc. Unless someone says why it shouldn't be deleted or fixes it, I suggest it be deleted.

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comic books, a feat that would never be matched again, and at a point when a mere handful of superhero books were just barely managing to survive. I guess it's not surprising to see this kind of OR, though, as the section that deals with this period is called

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didn't become trends until later (Wolverine didn't get a regular series until after 1985, and the Punisher didn't even get a miniseries until 1985; and X-Men spinoffs only became a trend after 1985 even though New Mutants was an isolated instance before that.)

2456:"it's descriptive of the general tone of comics - they became grim, gritty, and anti-heroes became extremely popular". That's an extremely simplistic description of comics at the time. Also, one book alone doesn't necessarily mean it's a widely accepted term. 875:

This page has some serious problems, content-wise and organization-wise. I did some work on the intro paragraph, but the whole page needs a serious makeover. The best source I've found so far is this , which I used pretty extensively in expanding the opening

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If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on

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established, even if the edges are fuzzy. It was a time when the publication format first came into its own, and enjoyed enormous sales that have never since been matched. It was a time when the basic vocabulary of the format was experimented with out of

3053:), the shift in consciousness towards serialization-as-a-means-to-a-graphic-novel-end, etc etc etc. As an "era", it would have to cover all the significant trends of the era—most of which weren't "dark", or were only tangentially so. Which is why I say 2754:

covers) translated to a number even close to 5 million readers? Several sources I've seen claim it would have only sold 750,000–1,000,000 (because of the multiple covers), and even that number would have been massively higher than the actual number of

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Most collectors agree that the Silver Age started with the price of comics going from $ 0.10 to $ 0.12, and size was slightly reduced, too. Most comics survive this era, and this era produced the most amount of on-going series from all major companies.

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That is true. Actually "Golden Age" and "Silver Age" were first used in the sense "Golden Age of superheroes" and "Silver Age of superheroes". So we need to refine the definition: i.e. it applies to mainstream publishers or it applies to super-heroes.

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One of the most infamous events of the "Dark Age" was the speculator bubble, which drove sales so far beyond actual readership that those numbers should be discounted entirely as a measure of the books' significance. I mean, how many people actually

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As I've said, the "Dark Age" was certainly a significant trend that needs to be documented (with loads of refs!), but it certainly wasn't the defining trend of the time. Creators' rights, for instance, had a huge impact at the time, from the

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I think this age starts with the first issue of The Yellow Kid comic book. Most comics from this era are lost forever. Detective Comics by DC Comics is the only series to survive and still be developed, printed, and sold today from this age.

3095:(Looking back on what I've written, I realize I probably come off as abrasive. I apologize if I do (chalk it up to frustration), but I know myself well enough to know that I can't promise that I won't continue writing in the same manner.) 794:

Second, the Copper Age (to choose one term) clearly starts in 1980 with Days of Future Past in Uncanny X-Men and 1981 with Miller's first Daredevil run. (IMO, the Bronze Age starts in 1970ish, and lasts ~10 years). Like with the silver-:

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themselves to be too unmanageable for the main article could be spun off (obviously this would happen with the Golden Age and Bronze Age...personally, I wonder if the "Bronze Age" would even make it). Anything else should be a redirect.

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This article need somebody, somewhere, who may have worked or owned a comic book shop, to discuss the rapid decline of comics thanks to graphic novels/trade paperbacks, manga and anime, and Diamond. See what can be found starting here:

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Do people do those "collaboration of the month" things any more? How many people would really commit themselves without flaking out? I would think this kind of thing was a "Top" priority project for the Project—I mean, it's only the

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How is it biased? "Dark" doesn't have any negative or positive connotations, it's descriptive of the general tone of comics - they became grim, gritty, and anti-heroes became extremely popular. It's also a common enough term to have a

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What we should do is create a Bronze Age article and just get rid of the references to 1970 in here. But it's too easy for naysayers to kill the article by selectively demanding references that aren't demanded for Gold/Silver/Modern.

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I cleaned-up the film adaptation section of the article, trying to concentrate on how they affected the comics. Also, I eliminated the references to cartoon shows because superhero cartoons are not a new development of the Modern Age.

3388:

Sorry, I guess I should've said more. I meant it was similar in terms of what it would try to contain, not what the page currently is. I thought it might be easier to clean up the current page instead of starting over from scratch.

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I'm talking about an article stripped of all the endless lists, speculation, editorializing and fan cruft that plague these articles as they stand. These articles need focus, organization, and references, references, references

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the Direct Market (like in supermarkets and convenience stores). Further, their comics are sold mainly to non-collectors and, as is typical of newsstand publications (magazines, newspapers, pre-Direct Market comic books), their

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Erm… why is the lede written in past tense if this age lasts “until present day”? And wouldn’t it be better to say it’s ongoing or current or something? That wording kinda makes it sound like it’s ending tomorrow.

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Both points work for me: "Dark Age" seems fairly well-established, and it's true that the term "Modern art" is anti-intuitive and often requires clarification that it's not the same as modern (lowercase) art.

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Why are they going downhill in time when the Golden Age comics were so terrible & the Silver Age comics were embarrassing & loaded with propaganda? Shouldn't the Golden Age be the Stone Age of comics?

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The truth is now out about the horror stories about the comic book industry and how it has treated so many of its own (Kirby!). Fans now think of the comic companies as just faceless, cold, another corporate

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sold a million copies, and they literally opened up at least one bottle of Champagne for editor Joe Cavalieri. Taking just figures like that into account and not the higher claims, that's still a lot of

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more subjective and POV than even a "Dark Age" article would be. Basically its entire contents will have to be evicted thirty years from now when it's no longer considered recent enough to be "modern".

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article has been around for over eight years. I have to wonder why it's so unreasonable to get WikiProject Comics together to put together a decent article on a subject that is core to the Project.

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The "Dark Age", on the other hand, smells of cruft. Wet, smelly, insular, cruftacular crufty cruft. It has a level of significance that would require a couple of (well-cited) paragraphs in the

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is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Knowledge (XXG) policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

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have more information about them. But at the same time you can't talk about modern age of comics and not include the alternative genres. if agreed I will try to add some more information. --

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regarding the use of this non-free image in the article. The concern is that the image is simply being used for identification and not as the subject of critical commentary per "Cover Art" in

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mere 16 years ago, comic shops were everywhere, then a mere decade ago, comic shops returned to be everywhere again, then pfft! Gone, thanks to Diamond's pyramid scam and a illegal monopoly.

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should be merged here, or material from here should be transferred to there. I'm of the opinion Moder Age dates back to mid 1990s/early 2000s, not the mid 80s, but I invite other opinions.

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the new Wonder woman stamps from the USPS are 4 images, labelled Golden age, Silver age, Bronze age and Modern age. thats a very nice reference showing the terms usage.(mercurywoodrose)

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You've got the Dark Age from 1985-2000 and the Modern Age from 2000-present. Lumping together the Modern Age as being 35 years long (longer than every previous comic age) is weird.--

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Also, I think the diamond age of comics sometimes refers to the newspaper strips/comics that appeared before the golden age. I've never heard it used as another name for the 80's.

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the "surgery" mentioned above, I completely rewrote the lead, as it was nothing but OR, making ridiculously unsupportable claims like "Sales of comic books began to decline after

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I'm not the one who said it was one book. That was WesleyDodds. I was the one who said it didn't matter how many books referred to the "Dark Age", it wasn't a basis for the

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Personally, I'd like to see this article thoroughly cleaned up and properly referenced before any talk of splitting. The article as it stands is postively oozing with OR.

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While I agree that there have been wide changes in the industry in terms of subject matter, censorship rules, and creative personnel, Knowledge (XXG) can not set its own

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mention of Dark Horse aside from it's position in the timeline. And very little about Vertigo. Of course superhero books still make up the mainstream of the market and

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I'd forgotten to mention something earlier that I'd meant to: The "dark" comics of this time had by far the most impact in the mainstream press, which was writing about

323: 745:, the distributors of practically all comic nowadays and was used to signify the shift in power from the publishers to the (sole) distributor (to the direct market). 113: 424:

Started with DC Comics' bullet logo, usually agreed to have ended when Image burst onto the scene, or sometimes Valiant, after their little Nintendo Comics phase.

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patterned after the old cliché in which a Golden Age is followed by a Silver, Bronze, etc...The pre-Golden age isn't labeled Platinum because of a consensus that

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these are the dates we're going with: Golden Age (1938-1955) Silver Age (1956-1969) Bronze Age (1970-1983) Copper Age (1984-1991) Modern Age (1992-Present)

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Absolutely! This article ignores the Bronze Age period (c. 1970-1985) by conflating it with the Modern Age (1986-?) The Bronze Age saw a number of changes to

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There are too many superlatives and POV statements in the timeline (although I agree the dates are appropriately significant). Ok to make them more NPOV? --

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of the Silver Age. There is also no established Copper Age. Those demarcations you give above are your own and not that of widespread comics scholarship. --

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other comic books from the time: Japanese stuff, which saw enormous growth throughout this period; Archie was bucking the "Dark" trend by putting out a

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As this B-Class article has yet to receive a review, it has been rated as C-Class. If you disagree and would like to request an assesment, please visit

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Because all the above is either uncited personal opinion or it cites a wikia, which Knowledge (XXG) doesn't allow to be used as reference sources. --

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I agree as well - not only that, it's very superhero centric... I didn't see any mention of Sandman or Preacher, for instance. What about Groo? :)

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most recently Barry Allen as the Flash). It's when we started getting chained crossover "ongoing epics" such as Avengers Disassembled -: -->

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considers the same (albeit with a "multiple issues" tag) is a logical split now. I imagine "Modern" rolls forward, though not necessarily:

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editors - not as "high" quality of a source as Coogan, but as they are heavily tied to the comics industry they would be a lesser RS.

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Early "comics" or books that would allow development of the comic book as we know it. Most comics from this era are lost forever.

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And, just for the record, I think the existence (aside from actual content) of the "Modern Age of Comic Books" article itself is

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on Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the ongoing discussions.

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All this garbage needs to be scrapped and rewritten following the souces available. As I pointed out above, there are a metric

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in the seventies, ignoring the Bronze Age, now I think we have a similar problem with the mid-eighties to late-nineties period.

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These definitions are fuzzy to begin with. Which sources generally use the concepts, and what are the most common standpoints?

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Comics as a medium still survive, even though the foundation seems shifting from comic books and superheroes into other areas.

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http://www.niklbag.com/blog/post/Saving-Comic-Publishers-from-Themselves-the-Threat-of-the-Diamond-Distribution-Monopoly.aspx

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Sales figures of 750,000 to one million are actually incredibly good. I remember being up at Marvel when the first issue of

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of comics as the "Dark Age" is completely overboard. It completely ignores the large number of superhero comics which did

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This is all good background, and there's no question this article has multiple problems. The big issue, though, is finding

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Why does the timeline start at 1970 while the article states that this period begins in the mid-80s. Very inconsistent.

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became important (again), I'd probably buy more of the classics of the field. Any takers for writing bits of this in? --

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My interests lie in alternative comics and early comic strips—currently cleaning up the deplorable travesty that is the

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Here's a book about comics called The Dark Age that appears to start with Watchmen and Dark Knight Returns (both 1986).

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I mean, maybe not much of it, as it talks a lot about DC's continuity changes, but still for something I would think.

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I've made some edits today, giving my rationales in the edit summaries. The tag on this page is correct: It needs an

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Six of one, half-dozen of the other. It would still amount to a near-complete rewrite of the article. Yes, yes it

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Perhaps it should be called the Iron Age because it was Iron Man who prompted Spider-Man to take off his mask. --

2684:, who is an exemplary editor, and as much as I hate unnecessary labels, I'd have to go with another fine editor, 2478:

At best, this "Dark Age" stuff refers to a particularly prevalent trend in superhero comics, but to refer to the

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So if everyone agrees that the widely held and logical view is that there were two Ages, why isn't this split?

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There is a tendency to use Direct Market numbers for sales. Archie Comics in particular is typically sold

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partake in the trend, or partook in it only in a tangential way, while at the same time ignoring basically

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Who are you to say the modern age of comics started in the mid 80s I thought it started in the mid 90s.

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and the Golden Age". To the superhero fan who first wrote this section, I suppose the post-War period

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Since we've gone four months without anyone coming up with a source for the statement, I've deleted it.

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has some info on it, more centered around costume, but they clearly describe the Iron Age for Comics

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was dark, not every Golden Age comic had the kind of massive sales that made the period seem golden.

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is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under

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The Modern Age is the most widely used name for the period following the Silver Age of Comic Books.

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somewhere in the 1992-1996 timeframe. There's definitely an era transition sometime before 2000.

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mid-nineties, there's almost one decade of Modern Age that's not Diamond Age by this definition.

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would be embarrasingly insular POV, no matter how many books or articles are written about it.

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You know what I'd really like to see (and, honestly, what really needs to be done)? Someone (

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don't think that the Dark age page should redirect here. I believe that it should be split.

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don't think that the Dark age page should redirect here. I believe that it should be split.

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The comics are being influenced by the movies based on them instead of the other way around.

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amount of research and writing work to approach being encyclopedic. This article is mostly

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Needs a section on this and the impact it has on art styles and scatter-panel layouts.

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linking to that page which explains why it needs to be used on that page. Please check

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of comic books from the same chronological period that didn't take part in the trend.

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I don't know much about citing sources at all, but couldn't this be used as a source?

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drama and events that took place, also daily and hourly, in comics from 1976 onward.

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lost her powers (when the amazons left Earth), then regained them (thanks in part to

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when used here. In particular, for each page the image is used on, it must have an

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Just a pure lack of interest to actually read adventures with the movies out there.

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drug-abuse story (the first from a major publisher to see publication without the

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Why read a $ 4 comic when you can see tons of original amateur webcomics for free.

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has been basically totally unrelated to that of superheroes since the Golden Age.

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No mention of '2000AD' either.--{Unsigned|86.177.108.228}} 22:00, 3 October 2011

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I'm less familiar with Marvel Comics, but for them the Bronze Age began with the

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These are the ages that I hear about when I go to conventions around the nation:

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I kicked around some ideas for improving the set of similar articles based on

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Gold: 1933-1955. Silver: 1956-1972. Bronze: 1973-1983. Modern: 1984-present.

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during this period, peaking out in 1952 with a total circulation of over on

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https://lareviewofbooks.org/article/when-were-superheroes-grim-and-gritty/

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collapsed, leaving DC and Marvel with no real competition for two decades.

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Sex, sex, sex! And anatomically ridiculous art in the name of "sex sells"

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Who are you (no signage)? I'm not saying this; what I'm saying is that

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Knowledge (XXG):WikiProject_Comics/Assessment#Requesting_an_assessment

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Knowledge (XXG):Version 1.0 Editorial Team/Assessment/B-Class criteria

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And we all know the problems with this age. Allow me to bullet-point:

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Maybe "Dark Age" and "Modern Age," which the Knowledge (XXG) article

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far too superhero centric there was other stuff going on in comics

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far too superhero centric there was other stuff going on in comics

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far too superhero centric there was other stuff going on in comics

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article refers to trends that only became trends in the mid-1980's.

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Coffee4binky, you missed a few other problems with the modern age.

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it? Does anyone believe that its 5 million sales (of a book with

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Knowledge (XXG) article constitutes fair use. In addition to the

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is a movement that ended some 40 years ago, and we use the term

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more and vastly improve this page. 19:41, 23 March 2012 (UTC)

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Identity Crisis and Rebirth up until know is widely called the

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That this article is linked to from the image description page.

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75 Years of DC Comics is a huge art/history book published by

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of reliable sources online, and plenty offline as well. The

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Getting late right now so that's it. Probably more out there.

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Why is there not a one-page history of American comic books?

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on the image's description page for the use in this article.

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and explains some of the references made to the number 52.--

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Image copyright problem with Image:Dark knight returns.jpg

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http://scifipedia.scifi.com/index.php/Modern_Age_of_Comics

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Contains "This will fail also". Is this a correct entry?

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then), those periods of American comic book history that

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autobiographical alternative comics, fantasy epics (à la

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Stores going out of business because of lack of interest.

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If you would like to participate, you can help with the

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Issue on dispute whether the Iron Age is the modern age

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Mr. ATOZ, allow me to add one more signifigant factor:

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citations for these claims. Surely, magazines such as

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major RS agrees that the Iron Age is still ongoing. (

2912:. I'm sure Archie Comics had high sales, and so did 359:

WikiProject Comics - United States comics work group

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Use of wacom tablets and computers for illustration

1205:. If you have any questions please ask them at the 1146:

Fair use rationale for Image:New Mutants 087-01.jpg

377:Just some points from a long-time comic collector. 2993:as significant as (if not more than) sheer sales. 2432:I respect the reasoning of my longtime colleague 1056:Agree with all above. Article needs much work. -- 3655:C-Class United States articles of Low-importance 3473:There's a discussion currently taking place at 1025:whole new page could be devoted to the genre.-- 1321:. For assistance on the image use policy, see 970:Does anyone have a source for this statement? 2177:Sources for Dark Age and Modern Age timelines 1332:WikiProject Comics B-Class Assesment required 1292:The following images also have this problem: 8: 2572:problematic, and should be torpedoed. It's 1195:Knowledge (XXG):Fair use rationale guideline 3320:Obviously you're being sarcastic. Despite 2507:"The Golden Age" makes total sense, and is 3625:C-Class Comics articles of High-importance 3524: 3210:lack of them, so there's really no excuse— 3199:) or some group of someones needs to do a 2386:there's no methodology behind the naming. 1986:I agree but you'd need a reliable source. 1466:I agree but you'd need a reliable source. 197: 130:the attached article or discuss it at the 47: 3031:to the founding of Image. Sci-fi manga, 1323:Knowledge (XXG):Media copyright questions 1261:is used in this article under a claim of 298:Knowledge (XXG):WikiProject United States 3635:United States comics work group articles 2641:of the article as it only referred to a 3253: 2115:and POV claims, as far as I can see. -- 2050:Age of Heroes and Graduation Day -: --> 1941:Seconded. See how TvTropes lists them: 1570:Seems like an obvious thing to have. -- 1425:Seconded. See how TvTropes lists them: 895: 466:Graphic novels killed the monthly sales 199: 49: 19: 3564:Problem with the modern age date range 3650:Low-importance United States articles 3630:C-Class United States comics articles 3506:2602:304:CFD0:6350:709C:91B3:9EA8:5B0 2533:Dark Age"..." But an article called 1341:. For further details please contact 1105:the industry should be included. -RB 1076:I've just created an article for the 660:. Not to mention the introduction of 563:2001:468:C80:8103:1520:1978:762D:1D3A 451:The Rise and Fall of Manga in America 428:1992 - 2XXX - Modern Age (unofficial) 420:1976 - 1991 - Bronze Age (unofficial) 7: 3212:here's a whole whopping whack of 'em 251:This article is within the scope of 101:This article is within the scope of 2692:in general use within the field. -- 690:The Modern Age began (for DC) with 636:to become a newscaster at WGBS-TV; 38:It is of interest to the following 3660:WikiProject United States articles 3586:rules. I am far from certain that 3329:"...sales of comic books actually 301:Template:WikiProject United States 140:Knowledge (XXG):WikiProject Comics 14: 1885:of higher rep than me claim this. 1368:have we already missed the mark? 2725:Walt Disney's Comics and Stories 1503:C-Class rated for Comics Project 1377:Modernism in their storylines. 1193:. Using one of the templates at 446:Price has gone up and up and up! 343: 238: 228: 201: 88: 78: 51: 20: 3620:High-importance Comics articles 3475:WP:NFCR#File:Watchmencovers.png 3201:History of Amercian comic books 1317:This is an automated notice by 696:Batman: The Dark Knight Returns 318:This article has been rated as 185:United States comics work group 160:This article has been rated as 3645:C-Class United States articles 2706:A couple of issues with that: 1840:The Metorpolitan Museum of Art 1207:Media copyright questions page 1006:Article too DC/Marvel centric? 1: 3539:02:56, 21 December 2016 (UTC) 3461:07:09, 26 February 2013 (UTC) 3434:01:18, 23 November 2012 (UTC) 3399:14:53, 12 November 2012 (UTC) 3384:23:02, 10 November 2012 (UTC) 3175:21:28, 26 November 2012 (UTC) 3143:15:21, 26 November 2012 (UTC) 3122:07:29, 24 November 2012 (UTC) 2956:05:54, 24 November 2012 (UTC) 2808:02:24, 24 November 2012 (UTC) 2702:23:02, 23 November 2012 (UTC) 2676:23:06, 23 November 2012 (UTC) 2633:17:35, 23 November 2012 (UTC) 2604:01:23, 23 November 2012 (UTC) 2564:01:16, 23 November 2012 (UTC) 2466:07:57, 22 November 2012 (UTC) 2446:16:08, 21 November 2012 (UTC) 2424:15:53, 21 November 2012 (UTC) 2396:13:45, 18 November 2012 (UTC) 2097:00:29, 22 February 2014 (UTC) 2082:19:53, 21 February 2014 (UTC) 1773:15:23, 12 February 2010 (UTC) 1758:14:15, 27 November 2009 (UTC) 1521:15:01, 24 February 2009 (UTC) 1259:Image:Dark knight returns.jpg 1176:boilerplate fair use template 1140:23:00, 11 December 2007 (UTC) 1048:20:20, 20 December 2008 (UTC) 982:18:55, 11 December 2005 (UTC) 949:That's why the inconsistency. 871:20:10, 8 September 2012 (UTC) 856:21:17, 7 September 2012 (UTC) 841:22:42, 7 September 2011 (UTC) 814:11:12, 7 September 2011 (UTC) 545:20:17, 18 December 2009 (UTC) 476:Libraries carrying the books. 356:This article is supported by 182:This article is supported by 3600:19:13, 21 January 2023 (UTC) 3577:20:21, 20 January 2023 (UTC) 3316:14:56, 9 November 2012 (UTC) 3297:03:25, 9 November 2012 (UTC) 2381:02:20, 9 November 2012 (UTC) 2361:21:14, 6 November 2012 (UTC) 2342:20:57, 6 November 2012 (UTC) 2306:19:23, 23 October 2012 (UTC) 2283:13:52, 23 October 2012 (UTC) 2264:23:43, 22 October 2012 (UTC) 2231:20:22, 22 October 2012 (UTC) 2145:04:07, 17 October 2011 (UTC) 2019:00:59, 17 October 2009 (UTC) 1934:04:52, 9 February 2009 (UTC) 1661:22:10, 7 February 2010 (UTC) 1544:) 00:40, 7 March 2009 (UTC) 1497:00:59, 17 October 2009 (UTC) 1420:04:52, 9 February 2009 (UTC) 1267:requirements for such images 1203:criteria for speedy deletion 1159:Image:New Mutants 087-01.jpg 934:20:18, 7 December 2005 (UTC) 679:'s approval) and ended with 664:. The Bronze age ended with 512:22:54, 1 February 2009 (UTC) 3640:WikiProject Comics articles 3559:22:51, 4 January 2020 (UTC) 2137:+|||||||||||||||||||||||||+ 2125:23:16, 24 August 2011 (UTC) 1996:09:40, 9 October 2009 (UTC) 1979:18:30, 8 October 2009 (UTC) 1606:Key Issues section problems 1476:09:40, 9 October 2009 (UTC) 1461:18:30, 8 October 2009 (UTC) 1393:09:04, 9 October 2009 (UTC) 1307:Image:Swampthingmoore21.jpg 1221:21:22, 2 January 2008 (UTC) 1120:08:55, 25 August 2007 (UTC) 1110:05:09, 25 August 2007 (UTC) 1100:17:44, 17 August 2007 (UTC) 1066:23:56, 3 October 2011 (UTC) 571:16:53, 4 October 2013 (UTC) 461:Books are too soap-opera-ry 143:Template:WikiProject Comics 3676: 3302:That sounds alot like the 2767:tends to be higher (often 1828:Obviously there is Coogan. 1645:15:21, 24 April 2009 (UTC) 1621:04:26, 24 April 2009 (UTC) 1561:03:04, 17 March 2009 (UTC) 1248:01:08, 25 April 2008 (UTC) 1187:the image description page 1090:Problems with this article 998:13:55, 13 April 2006 (UTC) 393:189X - 1937 - Platinum Age 324:project's importance scale 166:project's importance scale 3514:17:09, 24 July 2016 (UTC) 3495:14:16, 10 June 2015 (UTC) 3235:"4. ^ (see Batman #500)." 2208:01:24, 8 April 2012 (UTC) 2067:03:58, 28 July 2010 (UTC) 1870:05:03, 2 March 2010 (UTC) 1833:Mutants & Masterminds 1822:20:40, 1 March 2010 (UTC) 1807:05:33, 1 March 2010 (UTC) 1721:18:30, 13 June 2009 (UTC) 1702:18:30, 13 June 2009 (UTC) 1683:18:30, 13 June 2009 (UTC) 1632:Silver Age of Comic Books 1599:19:32, 4 April 2009 (UTC) 1580:09:40, 4 April 2009 (UTC) 1360:The Future of Modern Age. 1355:17:08, 31 July 2008 (UTC) 1312:Image:Harbinger 01-00.jpg 1189:and edit it to include a 1085:04:30, 19 July 2006 (UTC) 1078:Bronze Age of Comic Books 1030:14:10, 22 July 2006 (UTC) 780:13:56, 22 July 2006 (UTC) 762:12:05, 27 June 2007 (UTC) 719:12:05, 27 June 2007 (UTC) 666:Crisis on Infinite Earths 662:Jack Kirby's Fourth World 656:started hanging out with 616:30 June 2005 14:28 (UTC) 606:11:15, 4 April 2006 (UTC) 595:13:26, 13 June 2007 (UTC) 339: 317: 254:WikiProject United States 223: 181: 159: 73: 46: 2254:to mean current art. -- 2213:Merge / split discussion 2040:05:05, 10 May 2010 (UTC) 1906:06:14, 12 May 2010 (UTC) 1788:links to the mainspace). 1327:20:14, 23 May 2008 (UTC) 1297:Image:Watchmencovers.png 1168:explanation or rationale 1020:03:21, 26 May 2006 (UTC) 958:14:21, 2 June 2006 (UTC) 944:13:21, 2 June 2006 (UTC) 886:02:58, 28 May 2017 (UTC) 750:13:26, 1 June 2006 (UTC) 411:195X - 1975 - Silver Age 402:1938 - 195X - Golden Age 259:United States of America 3615:C-Class Comics articles 3468:File:Watchmencovers.png 2902:The Dark Knight Returns 2535:Dark Age of Comic Books 535:reboot, reuse, recycle. 385:17XX - 188X - Stone Age 3446:Verb tense and diction 3306:page we already have. 2914:The Amazing Spider-Man 2742:the pre-sealed bag to 2518:financially successful 2196:most comic book eras. 2052:Infinite Crisis -: --> 2051:Identity Crisis -: --> 2028:Silver Age Renaissance 1589:? 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Suggestions? 336: 304:United States articles 178: 28:This article is rated 3545:Split article in two? 3247:history of the medium 2680:As much as I respect 2408:TwoMorrows Publishing 2404:book written about it 2102: 2055:Blackest Night -: --> 1170:as to why its use in 1153: 787:start year is wrong. 677:Comics Code Authority 456:Diamond Comic Distro. 335: 177: 32:on Knowledge (XXG)'s 3346:a sort of Dark Ages. 3191:Unreasonable fantasy 2500:; the chronology of 2347:Well, yeah, there's 2244:Modern Age of Comics 1302:Image:Tmnt1cover.jpg 246:United States portal 111:on Knowledge (XXG). 3355:American comic book 3304:American comic book 2530:American comic book 2351:. . . ! :- ) -- 2150:Many Factual Errors 2054:Final Crisis -: --> 1587:American comic book 644:to attend college; 272:Articles Requested! 132:project's talk page 3483:WP:NFC#cite_note-2 3331:rose significantly 2645:, and ignores the 2502:alternative comics 1786:Iron Age of Comics 1191:fair use rationale 1155: 337: 179: 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