873:(Chapek,Hashek,Good soldier Shveik - much better;why I don't see it?Just because it's just adoption from another language).Probably,natives better understand,how to write and pronounce?What if Belarusians start demanding to write Londan,Paryzh,Atava instead of London,Paris,Ottawa "for better understanding"?You know better how to write the names of your cities,so,give us to write it the same.Why Plzeň,but not Smarhoń?Why Vysočina but not Baranavičy?Why Šibenik but not Škloŭ?Why Varaždin but not Ždanovičy?Its all the same,you understand Czech or Croatian languages,but don't understand Belarusian with the same letters.It's nonsense!Or the notorious double-standarts policy?
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823:- of the five largest cities, only Mogilev and Grodno are at the Belarusian forms. I'd think all these, at least, should be at the Russian version. The rest I don't really care about - I'd say they're generally very little known to English-speakers, so it would make sense to use the form most used by the inhabitants, which I suppose could be either Russian or Belarusian, but more likely the latter. It's a different case from the larger cities, which are at least moderately known abroad.
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on "Mahilyow" reveals four results, three of them from the same
Belarusian news source. There are 16 hits on "Mogilev" from a variety of different sources. Although Britannica uses "Mahilyow," the Columbia Encyclopedia uses "Mogilev". Mogilev gets ten times as many hits on Google Books as Mahilyow (about 1500 to about 150), and there are also way way more hits for Mogilev in Google Scholar (although some of these appear to be publications by people
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998:: “If there is a clear consensus after this time, the request will be closed and acted upon. If not, the administrator may choose to re-list the request to allow time for consensus to develop, or close it as "no consensus".” By acting unilaterally on your own preferences you are abusing your privilege. You are thumbing your nose at everyone involved in the discussion here, and starting your own move war.
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1027:, why it is important to resolve these things with consensus. This is why nominator john k said that “this should be addressed at a macro level.” By showing up out of the blue and ruling like the King of Article Moves, you are resolving nothing, just setting the clock back a couple of yours, and encouraging more divisive and unproductive argument.
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Regarding your “decision”, DrKiernan, the issue of
Belarusian names is not so simple that you can make a snap judgment based on talk in one article. This is why they have been in a state of mild flux for years, why they have been discussed again and again by dozens of editors familiar with different
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It is probably true that this should be addressed at a macro level - I'd say that a place like "Babruysk" is not familiar to
English speakers at all, and that thus any name could be used, but that the larger cities (Mahilyow/Mogilev, Hrodna/Grodno, Homiel/Gomel, Viciebsk/Vitebsk) should definitely be
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Well, every source from before 1991 will have "Mogilev," to start off with. Obviously that's not an indicator of current usage, but if there's two potentially acceptable names, the fact that older works will all use one of them ought to have some impact in deciding what to use. A Google news search
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DrKiernan failed to rule on consensus, and joined the dispute by ruling based on his opinion about the content. He showed up and did whatever he wanted, without participating in the discussion. This move is arbitrary, unilateral, and contrary to consensus. It is against the word and the spirit of
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Even if it were a vote, which it isn't, there are four in favour of "Mogilev" (Kazak, john k, Septentrionalis, and Avala) so the vote is evenly split. However, the votes are not relevant since this is a discussion not a vote, and the arguments on their side are more compelling. It is the common name
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Future
Perfect, re-opening the discussion while keeping the current title, after inadequate move, is most counter-productive. It seems to indicate that if there is no new feedback to the discussion, then the new title should remain in place. In order to revoke DrKiernan's inappropriate closure, the
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You should use the
Belarusian name because the city is in Belarus, not in Russia! President Lukashenka suppresses the Belarusian language even it is the first official language of the country. So he forces to use names of cities in Belarus only in their Russian version. But the Belarusian names are
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The re-opening is certainly a good idea. But for the time being, I have re-instated DrKiernan's move, and move-protected it (together with a block warning against any admin involved in this dispute who should continue wheel-warring about it). Whether DrKiernan's call was the correct one to make or
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It infuriates me,when someone says I must use the system for my native language's romanisation,which was developed by the 2 foreign agencies and adopted by the country that doesn't exist more than 20 years!So,please,tell,why don't you use this system for Čapek and Hašek "for better understanding"
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not Moskva, so Ajax, Närking and
Anatoli's argument can be discounted on the basis that common names should be used where possible instead of transliterations. john k already countered your and Húsönd's argument that Mahilyow is also in common use by providing evidence that Mogilev is commoner.
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Using "Mogilev" has no more to do with Mr. Lukashenko than using
Cologne has to do with Napoleon Bonaparte. Because Belarus is largely known to English speakers via Russia, the Russian names are much more familiar to English-speakers than the Belarussian names. The fact that the Belarussian
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Since the move request was made, three editors are in favour (nominator john k, Avala, Septentrionalis), and four opposed (me Mzajac, Närking, AjaxSmack, Húsönd). There is no consensus supporting a move, and your actions are out of line. Please reread the discussion and move the article
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Mogilev). A search on the domain "government.by" (the
Belarusian government) returns numerous hits for Mogilev, and none for Mahilyow. A Lexis-Nexis serach of "Major US and World Publications" turns up 34 hits for Mogilev in the last two years. There are 104 for Mahilyow, but they
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not, it was a good-faith responsible attempt by an uninvolved admin at reading the consensus of this discussion. Wheel-warring against it is unacceptable. This, of course, should not prejudice the outcome of any further discussion in the context of the renewed move request, and any
1089:.” (And in case anyone cares what the participating editors think, it is false that the vote was even; whether you count opinions back to 2006 as he did or not, the majority is against the move.) He also announced the decree by stating his assessment of the facts, “
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YOU claimed that commonname said that it was "Mogilev" explicity, when infact it DID NOT. No one bothering to fix the obvious errors with the title (giving a bias towards it being a
Russian city rather than a Belarusian one) doesn't mean it's a "Common Name". 🤓
1176:, and the notice removed from this article, as a part of routine maintenance. So now that relisting hasn't changed consensus against the move, will the article be moved back? Is the relisting going to be restored as part of the effort to move this article from
688:. I don't see a compelling reason to move the article yet again. If you feel very strongly about it, then go ahead and post a notice at geography, Belarus and USSR wikiprojects to get some more opinions, but I don't think this is worth spending energy on.
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I will not tolerate move warring. The requested move was correctly closed by an administrator based on the discussion. If you wish to contest the move, then you need to restart discussion, not move the page unilaterally and undo the administrative action.
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Seems like most of the other
Wikipedias use the Belarusian spelling. Like me I guess they don't find this city to have a widely known and established name in foreign languages so the local name has been transliterated just like here.
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move until the issue is addressed at a more macro level. Almost all other Belarussian places are located at Belarussian language transliterations. Changes like this should not be done piecemeal unless this case can be shown to be
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That looks like a good summary. One might add a few other data points, but I don't think the picture changes much. The UN and other international agencies, and current atlases probably transliterate directly from the
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Please change 'Baltic countires full detail railway map. Belarus and Baltics in C1 sector' to 'Baltic countries full detail railway map. Belarus and Baltics in C1 sector' as this the clearly a spelling mistake. Thanks
1824:-I think that the page should be moved to it's Belarusian name to fit naming conventions on Knowledge (XXG) (every single other city/town in Belarus that has an article uses it's Belarusian name as the title.) 🤓
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Relisting the request after forcing the move against consensus is an empty gesture. Start another request or extend this one if you are unhappy with the outcome, but please move the article back to the consensus
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This request was only opened in 2009. You also failed to mention two editors who spoke up after Kazak, but I guess their opinion didn't suit you. You can't recruit editors who aren't even here to support your
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is just a hive of bureaucratic busybodiness - the "controversy" seems to involve an anonymous user who provides no reasons and a German wikipedia user who appears not to understand our naming policies. Sigh.
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Done, thanks for spotting this. I've also unprotected the page – sorry for keeping it protected for so long, I think I must have meant to only move-protect it and hit the edit-protection by mistake.
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Do you have any sources that the russian names for Voblasc capitals are common names? You could make the argument that "Minsk" is but the spelling "Minsk" appears in Belarusian as well. 🤓
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derive from the same source, the BBC Monitoring Kiev Unit. A basic google search of pages in English turns up, again, about ten times as many results for Mogilev as for Mahilyow.
467:, specifically, "If a name or word has a conventional English spelling, that is used (see #Conventional names, below)." Mogilev is the conventional English name of the place.
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You're out of line. There is no consensus to support a move. If you wish to contest the current title, then you need to restart discussion, not move the page unilaterally.
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by English speaking readers (this is after all the English version of Knowledge (XXG)). So... if you want to change the article title, you need to examine
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in english, and it is the official name in english. These arguments are stronger than the transliteration argument, e.g. we have the article on Moscow at
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the vote is evenly split. However, the votes are not relevant since this is a discussion not a vote, and the arguments on their side are more compelling
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The “correct” article name may be arguable, and in such a case I also assign some weight to preferring a local name. In my opinion, this town is like
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administrator acting responsibly on the basis of whatever consensus emerges is of course welcome to enact any change deemed appropriate.
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within an hour of this tag being placed. The discussion may be closed 7 days after being opened, if consensus has been reached (see the
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When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
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When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
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When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
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We're not discussing the other articles here. Feel free to start a discussion on the appropriate talkpage(s) if you wish to do so.
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government itself tends to use the Russian names in English and non-English publications only strengthens the case for Mogilev.
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Your assessment of the facts is incorrect. DrKiernan did not “read consensus” to close this request; in fact he made a ruling
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https://web.archive.org/web/20150112133342/http://mogilev-region.gov.by/en/news/mogilev_and_ar_rayyan_signed_agreement_contact
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You are wrong. Russian and Belarusian have officially equal statuses in Belarus. Belarusian is not the first language.
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John, as you can see from this page, this is not an uncontroversial move. It is not consistent with the notes at
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specifically notes that voblast capitals are named according to COMMONNAME, not Belarusian transliteration. See
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to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
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to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
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to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
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292:(USSR) on Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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We don't care if the name is in Russian or Belarusian... what we do care about is using the name that is most
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As a responsible admin, your obligation is to close the request with a ruling of “no consensus”, according to
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Kazak “voted” in 2006, so as you can see, there hasn't been any consensus for this move in a long time.
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If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with
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If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with
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Mogilev is the english-language name, as used by most english sources and the Belarusian authorities
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should be the name for the article despite destructive Russian chauvinist vandalism on the Wiki. --
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and recent references, rather than preferring the Russian version prevalent in the Cold War (i.e.,
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https://web.archive.org/web/20080927122532/http://maps.grida.no/go/graphic/belarus_topographic_map
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Knowledge (XXG):Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#DrKiernan moving articles against consensus
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before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template
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before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template
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before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template
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It's so strange to see Belarusan city in Russian spelling just because they name it that way. --
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If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with
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If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with
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http://mogilev-region.gov.by/en/news/mogilev_and_ar_rayyan_signed_agreement_contact
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Mogilev is by far the most common name, and is in the city/region's web address.
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Yes but not for those reasons but because the city authorities themselves use
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argument for "Mahilyow", since "Mogilev" is the longstanding stable title.
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From the article history, it looks like the article has already wandered
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https://web.archive.org/web/20160131022820/http://www.torpedomogilev.by/
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http://parovoz.com/maps/supermap/supermap.php?X=C&Y=1&LANG=en
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the procudure described at Requested Moves, and shouldn't be upheld.
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aspects of culture, language and politics affecting the issue, and
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on official signs, yet! Best regards, Juhan, German Knowledge (XXG)
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http://belstat.gov.by/homep/ru/publications/2011/bul_population.rar
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Hence, your arguments do not stand up to independent scrutiny.
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In fact, my move does in fact comply with the standards at
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for additional information. I made the following changes:
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for additional information. I made the following changes:
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for additional information. I made the following changes:
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under their Russian name. But note that already we have
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http://maps.grida.no/go/graphic/belarus_topographic_map
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Moved from WP:RM: (in response to move proposal there)
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Mahilyow is common usage as well. And I second Ajax.
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As far as this article is concerned, the onus is on
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He is currently banned from editing for a full year.
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Knowledge (XXG) level-5 vital articles in Geography
1639:using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
1529:using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
1419:using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
359:Everyone is glad about that fact, now move it back
203:, a project which is currently considered to be
1625:This message was posted before February 2018.
1515:This message was posted before February 2018.
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1205:informed the editor who performed the clean-up
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1489:. Please take a moment to review
1357:. Please take a moment to review
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1983:
1965:scream at me
1964:
1956:
1931:
1917:scream at me
1916:
1908:
1876:
1847:
1836:scream at me
1835:
1827:
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1778:
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1651:source check
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1286:recognizable
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878:Move warring
869:
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803:
799:, &c. —
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348:
345:Romanisation
323:
299:Soviet Union
283:
246:Soviet Union
204:
147:
107:
51:WikiProjects
34:
1806:direct move
1798:current log
1769:Please use
1278:Renessaince
1045:Re-opened.
986:since June.
786:sui generis
598:Belarusian.
41:Start-class
2005:Categories
1802:target log
1688:Report bug
1578:Report bug
1468:Report bug
1063:uninvolved
1025:especially
804:AjaxSmack
770:PMAnderson
1891:, etc...
1789:directly.
1671:this tool
1664:this tool
1561:this tool
1554:this tool
1451:this tool
1444:this tool
1334:Fut.Perf.
1067:Fut.Perf.
1047:DrKiernan
964:DrKiernan
886:DrKiernan
789:vis-à-vis
760:, as the
39:is rated
1988:Marcelus
1940:162 etc.
1893:162 etc.
1881:WP:PLACE
1821:Mahilyow
1758:succinct
1726:Mahilyow
1677:Cheers.—
1567:Cheers.—
1457:Cheers.—
1298:Blueboar
1265:Mahilyow
1251:Mahilyow
1184:Or what?
1182:Mogilev?
1178:Mahilyow
793:Babruysk
686:Mahilyow
678:Mahilioŭ
670:Mahilyow
532:Mahilyow
512:Mahilyow
500:Mahilyow
376:Glebchik
206:inactive
180:inactive
1816:Mogilev
1746:subpage
1717:Mogilev
1601:my edit
1597:Mogilev
1491:my edit
1487:Mogilev
1359:my edit
1355:Mogilev
1290:English
1261:Mahiloŭ
1257:Магілёў
1239:Michael
1211:Michael
1117:Michael
1113:title.
1031:Michael
1007:Michael
945:Michael
922:Närking
905:Michael
821:Vitebsk
758:Mogilev
735:Mogilev
717:Närking
692:Michael
682:Mogilev
674:Mogilev
641:Kharkov
629:Kharkiv
542:Michael
536:Mogilev
516:Mogilev
452:Michael
438:WP:NAME
399:Anatoli
395:Łacinka
391:Mahiloŭ
326:on the
150:on the
123:Belarus
114:Belarus
70:Belarus
1984:Oppose
1885:Grodno
1877:Oppose
1854:. See
1848:Oppose
1795:Links:
1269:Czalex
984:active
959:Moscow
901:back.
870:Oppose
842:Oppose
825:john k
797:Hrodna
781:Oppose
633:WP:CYR
565:john k
474:john k
465:WP:CYR
434:WP:CYR
416:john k
47:scale.
1889:Gomel
1864:Mellk
1856:Ngram
1777:. Do
1762:civil
1203:I've
996:WP:RM
989:move.
817:Gomel
743:Avala
684:: -->
676:: -->
672:: -->
556:named
528:CanOD
469:WP:RM
442:WP:RM
351:Kazak
28:This
1992:talk
1944:talk
1897:talk
1868:talk
1850:per
1781:use
1760:and
1323:talk
1319:E258
1302:talk
1294:they
1051:talk
968:talk
926:talk
890:talk
829:talk
819:and
762:only
747:talk
721:talk
639:and
637:Lvov
625:Lviv
569:talk
526:and
524:NOAD
510:has
478:talk
420:talk
403:talk
380:talk
1969:🤓
1932:you
1921:🤓
1879:.
1840:🤓
1779:not
1737:bot
1723:to
1719:be
1645:RfC
1615:to
1535:RfC
1505:to
1425:RfC
1389:to
1379:to
1180:to
1141:Hús
848:Hús
741:.--
627:or
561:all
448:).
318:Low
142:Low
2007::
1994:)
1961:|
1946:)
1913:|
1899:)
1887:,
1870:)
1832:|
1818:→
1804:•
1800:•
1787:}}
1783:{{
1775:}}
1771:{{
1764:.
1734:A
1658:.
1653:}}
1649:{{
1548:.
1543:}}
1539:{{
1438:.
1433:}}
1429:{{
1325:)
1304:)
1259:,
1242:Z.
1235:.
1214:Z.
1151:nd
1120:Z.
1053:)
1034:Z.
1010:Z.
970:)
948:Z.
941:.
928:)
908:Z.
892:)
858:nd
831:)
795:,
749:)
723:)
695:Z.
643:).
571:)
545:Z.
480:)
455:Z.
422:)
405:)
382:)
1990:(
1942:(
1895:(
1866:(
1729:.
1690:)
1686:(
1673:.
1666:.
1580:)
1576:(
1563:.
1556:.
1470:)
1466:(
1453:.
1446:.
1337:☼
1321:(
1300:(
1237:—
1209:—
1146:ö
1115:—
1070:☼
1049:(
1029:—
1005:—
966:(
943:—
924:(
903:—
888:(
853:ö
827:(
745:(
719:(
690:—
567:(
540:—
518:.
502:.
476:(
450:—
418:(
401:(
378:(
330:.
209:.
182:)
178:(
154:.
53::
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