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dangerous party with dangerous ambition and even though it's only an opinion, i have the feeling this "article" was only wrote and reworked numerous times by own guys of the party. Normalisation of violence is dangerous, she's from an far-right party and there's no mention about this. My main language isn't english and i've no sufficient skills to rework this but this article has to be reworked, it's dangerous to let people think she's a normal person from a normal party. They are extremist and it needs to be write somewhere.The ex-leader of the party, before their efforts to seem like a normal and accepted party has said numerous times that the german invasion in 1940 was "not so bad" and the number of death jews where exagerated.
1276:: Well, if you google “Marion Maréchal-Le Pen”, filtering for results in English dated May 24 (the day after the change was announced) or later, you’ll find an overwhelming number of pages now calling MMLP ‘Marion Maréchal’. They are mostly reliable news items, announcing the name change, her previous name being mentioned, of course (those English sources may have conformed with French sources, which by and large immediately made the jump to the new name — under French laws they could be sued if they didn't). As a consequence, to follow
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1870:, aged 20 (she had first ran for local office in 2008 as "Marion Maréchal"). Thus, it can be argued that her withdrawal from politics since 2017, added to her public request to be called only "Maréchal" from now on, form a strong-enough basis to acknowledge this change immediately. A number of sources already referred to her as "Marion Maréchal" even before she decided to drop "Le Pen". Naturally, the "Le Pen" name should remain mentioned prominently in the lead sentence of her bio. —
1170:– This is about Marion Marechal-Le Pen’s (MMLP) last name. Per French law and French naming customs, Ms Marechal-Le Pen can use either her father’s surname, ‘Marechal’, or a combo of said father’s name with her mother’s name, ‘Le Pen’, giving ‘Marechal-Le Pen’. She has been using that combo for about 8 years now. Very recently Marechal-Le Pen has decided to drop the maternal moiety (LePen) from her own usual name. In the reference linked here:
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1969:. When a subject's heritage originates outside the English-speaking world, it is good practice to consult the Knowledge in her native language for guidance as to how her name appears there. It may be also helpful to consult Wikipedias around the spectrum of world languages as to naming consensus, if any. Her native
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1) The sources are about MMLP, full point. What further the sources are about is irrelevant (her change of name, the new school she’s about to head, her role within FN, her absence at the party’s
Convention, her chances in 2022, etc. Quite a few, BTW. You didn't see them?). 2) You read WP:CRYSTAL the
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I have responded in detail in your talk page. Perhaps the character has several dimensions, but she is known primarily as a politician. For the rest, it is not because contributors are interested in one of the dimensions of the character, that it determines the title they will choose. Best regards.
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To elaborate, it's fair to call editors interested in politics, but it would also be fair to call editors interested in motivations of name changes, editors interested in adoption, or editors interested in upholding
Knowledge conventions. Even if your chosen editors include a diversity of political
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this is not "Canvassing". Canvassing is made in intention of influencing the outcome of a discussion in a particular way. My message was nonpartisan and neutral. And the users could read my messages and the messages of others editors. The contributors I notified are not my friends, I just know that
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named hand-picked editors is frowned upon. If you wanted to alert a certain set of editors potentially interested in this discussion, you should have done it on a neutral group page, such as a
Wikiproject on French politics is such a thing exists. Your action is now casting doubt on the outcome of
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What is the relevance of that? For two days she mucked in with real folk and did real work for a change. So what? Is it supposed to imply that she now knows what real work is like?? If so that is a ridiculous claim. It is on a par with Sarah Palin saying she understood foreign policy because she
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Why isn't there any information about her own political views? It only refeers to the "politicals views of the party" whith no further informations. I think people have the right to know that the FN is a far-right party and has an historic of antisemitism, racism,... It's from my point a view a
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Because “she has been known for a long time as Lepen”? No. Should, with the same reasoning, the encyclopedia refrain from reporting too soon the sudden death of celebrities (reliably sourced) because they have been known for a long time as living?! Of course not, readers are entitled to an
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Marechal-Le Pen’s likely motivations for the move are discussed. IMHO, those are not relevant when it comes to decide how MMLP’s page should be named. (However some political opponents to MMLP may resent the change, because of a perceived advantage MMLP might derive from it.) I suggest
2155:. The nom talks about French sources, but what about English? NAMECHANGES and COMMONNAME require us to look for the most commonly used name in *English* reliable sources, but no evidence is provided one way or the other on usage there. I will look again in more detail later though. —
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advises to give more weight to reliable sources published after the name change when deciding whether the article title should change. Too bad the relevant recommendations have been missed, before one has 1) requested a page move; 2) opposed reversal of said move!
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Panam2104 is a fake account and have been blocked for this. Also, I have not moved the article. Yesterday, the article Marion Maréchal-Le Pen have been moved to Marion Maréchal here without consensus. And I have opened a request move to reverse the move.
2021:. Other Wikipedias, such as the Norwegian or Russian have retained "Le Pen". Since the English Knowledge covers the entire English-speaking world, the British or the Australians may approach the matter differently than the Canadians or the Americans.
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Premature move, she has been known for a long time as Lepen, her political notoriety is based on that. If her name is changed to Marion Maréchal, I think the introduction in the article should mention she was long knowned as "Marion Maréchal Lepen".
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See no general agreement to grant this request at this time. This may change so, as is usual with a no-consensus outcome, editors can make another attempt after some time has passed to garner consensus to rename this article. Have a Great Day and
2130:. She returned to her birth name after having added "Le Pen" from 2010 to May 2018 for political exposure. Since then, French journalistic sources have largely covered her under the shorter name (most notably during the recent
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on the francophone wikipedia after the same removal of the name (and his controversial use of a name resembling that of another wikipedian as I understand it). See discussion on the
Bistrot (village pump) here:
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was younger than her in 1791, and that's clearly wrong. Unless anyone can find a name of a
Revolution-era parliamentarian age 22 or younger, I don't think that's an accurate claim, even if it is in newspapers.
1552:) are covering the name change and her social media accounts reflect it as well, indicating her express preference. Redirect will be left in place, and the lead should make reference to her old name. --
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I did not mean you made that first move sorry, but I got lost in the pseudos. I just wanted to stress that the change to Marion Maréchal had not been discussed, and is IMO not adequate. Sorry for this!
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are often controversial in the early days and become generally supported over time (both of those took about one year to settle). On the other hand, this person made a very public decision to only
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also change their mind and decide to challenge MMLP’s rights to a name and not follow the recent change (irresponsible, unlikely). But one shouldn’t care! because there is this rule
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has convinced me that it should be done. Just, well, do feature "Le Pen" prominently, please. That was her public persona for a number of years, and must be acknowledged. —
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recommendations are followed. Mainstream media in
English and in French have quietly followed suite, and it is unlikely that Marion Marechal would change again overnight.
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they are interested in politics and that their opinion can be interesting. In addition, they have had a different opinion of mine so we can not say they are my allies. --
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Selecting "yellow vests" ensures recent coverage only, in
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When a subject's name changes (and it's clearly sourced) it's natural to update the article title at the time and not wait to shift at glacial pace.
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1536:- I agree it would have been better to give this a bit more time, but since we're here we should resolve it. Major news sources on the continent (
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Time must be allowed. All the sources you are talking about are centered on the name change. We need sources that talk about his activity. --
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Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a
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Alright, I've had a look, and although
English references to her are sparse in recent months, it does seem like there's been a shift.
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When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
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1579:, as major sources follow this new usage, as it is indeed natural to follow the subject's will on this topic too, and according to
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and
Dekimasu. Until the present title stops being the common name, we don't need to consider the issue of self-identification. —
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no there are no full point. The sources are about her name change and it is important. I am not convinced with your argument. --
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lived in Alaska and could see Russia from her window! If it isnt supposed to imply that.. what is the point of that statement??
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First of all his edits were not appreciated (even the birth name had been changed) and a discussion is also happening here:
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https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/may/25/marine-le-pens-niece-tipped-as-future-far-right-leader-drops-family-name
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points of view, that is still a group of hand-picked people, which may lead to bias in results, even unwittingly. —
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Thanks for the explanation. Please understand that such a call does look bad regardless of your good faith. —
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A search for "yellow vests" and "Marion" yields a majority of results calling her only "Marion Maréchal".
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I'm aware of this discussion but currently ambivalent, so I'll probably hold off on !voting until later.
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was performed without consensus, so that the appropriate process is to revert to the longstanding title
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change her mind and switch back to the name she’s been using until last week (unlikely); 2) Medias
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on
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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at age 2; she only added "Le Pen" to raise awareness of her public persona when she entered the
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1020:. For the moment the name has been kept to Marion Maréchal LePen on the francophone wikipedia.--
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2229:: My earlier vote has not changed, and the sources provided by Amakuru only bolster the case.
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other commenters further, unless you have new policy arguments to bring to the discussion. —
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per the greater recognizability of the current title (with recognizability being one of the
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because we don't know if the sources will use again MMLP or they will not talk about her. --
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1235:. Marion Maréchal Le Pen is known as MMLP since 2010. So, the change is too recent. --
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If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with
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No, the sources are about her name change. For that we should wait per CRYSTAL. --
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there are no reason to google from 24 May only. We have sources since 2009. --
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this move request, regardless of its outcome. Please don't do this again. —
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I don't see with this would be a need. It's not required by COMMONNAME.
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http://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/feb/16/jean-marie-le-pen-convicted
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An editor has reviewed this edit and fixed any errors that were found.
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events, because… Knowledge is not a crystal ball! One should rely on
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http://www.prorussia.tv/Le-Depute-FN-Marion-Marechal-Le-Pen_v189.html
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with a Google search tool, most of sources write MMLP and not MM. --
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lengthy talk page discussions regarding the proposed name change
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from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially
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Sorry for being boorish, Nattes à chat. No offense meant. --
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Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this
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protests), and the French Knowledge has made the switch. —
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other way round. I respectfully suggest you try again. --
976:– Please place your rationale for the proposed move here.
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for additional information. I made the following changes:
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I don't understand why this phrase is there, since she is
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http://www.frontnational.com/fonctions/bureau-politique/
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719:One of the six youngest MPs of the new assembly...
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1923:: Now, I'm not too happy about this change, but
2122:– Time to uphold this person's name change per
695:Who was younger than her in the 1790s? Because
1807:You have made your point. Please refrain from
945:. Editors are free to open a move request to
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2331:Politics and government work group articles
1409:happen and justify the status quo: 1) MMLP
772:For two days she became a strawberry grower
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1437:the name is ‘Marion Maréchal’. --
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1003:Hi the original contributor
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646:and see a list of open tasks.
562:and see a list of open tasks.
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391:Template:WikiProject Politics
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35:biographies of living persons
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1401:I can think of two events
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737:16:51, 18 May 2013 (UTC)
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1937:ping me in your reply
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2007:Portuguese Knowledge
691:Youngest since 1791?
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2192:Changed to support.
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1423:anticipated
1111:move review
924:move review
2305:Categories
2233:Javert2113
1929:Javert2113
1550:Le Progres
1435:at present
1419:WP:CRYSTAL
1378:WP:CRYSTAL
1214:Relisting.
1192:Relisting.
1138:page mover
879:Report bug
727:youngest.
2289:talk page
2263:Adelsheim
2253:: As per
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1935:; please
1831:Bernarddb
1803:Bernarddb
1788:Bernarddb
1742:Mélencron
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1653:Panam2014
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1617:Mélencron
1607:Panam2014
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1554:Netoholic
1542:The Times
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1464:Panam2014
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1301:Bernarddb
1286:Bernarddb
1280:and also
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172:Biography
112:Biography
51:libellous
2291:or in a
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1888:Dekimasu
1538:The Week
868:Cheers.—
754:unsigned
742:Untitled
385:Politics
376:politics
335:Politics
2237:Siarad.
2227:Support
2202:Support
2157:Amakuru
2153:Support
2128:WP:SPNC
1954:Amakuru
1921:Support
1901:Support
1848:Support
1625:Impru20
1623:, and
1577:Support
1565:Support
1534:Support
1431:present
805:my edit
706:LtNOWIS
310:on the
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1880:Oppose
1860:revert
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230:France
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2092:Moved
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161:and
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2138:JFG
2108:--
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1886:).
1872:JFG
1854:or
1813:JFG
1704:JFG
1694:JFG
1673:JFG
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