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Talk:Metalogic

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something. I think this characterization of logic (being a part of that namby-pamby philosophy) really relegates it to analyzing literature or rhetoric (or perhaps something even stuffier like philology?) or something fluffy like that. Logic is more about following reason. There are patterns in reason that we call principles. Logic is about identifying them. Arguments are far removed a subject matter within logic from the abstract concepts behind them.
283: 22: 902:(←) I have no particular objections to leaving this article separate from the metamathematics article. In one reading, metamathematics is theformal study of properties of mathematical systems using mathematical logic, while metalogic is the formal study of logical systems using mathematical logic. The term metalogic seems to be well established in the literature. — Carl 185: 158: 1122:
several areas, one of which is the definition of metalogic, but I didn't want to unilaterally remove it as a reference. As I said above, I think the term is indeed established in the literature. The hyphenated phrases by Hunter, as I said above, seem tautologous rather than clear. I don't understand what you are arguing for in your second paragraph.
195: 315: 1495:. Methamatematics is the discipline which investigates the formal properties of theories (especially mathematical theories) formulated withing the framework of modern logic (first- and higher-order mathematical logic) as well as properties of the logical framework himself. Today we commonly call this discipline metalogic. 502:. It's quite a nice book. I bought my own copy on amazon recently, and that is why I have been working on some of these topics lately. I am quite fascinated as usual to see the response from the math people in general. You are one of my favorites among them Carl. I'm always interested in your perspective. Be well, 1088:
Carl, I am a little disappointed in your recent reword of the lede. Do you really think "the theory of those formal languages that for one reason or another matter to the logician." is a more satisfying definition? It depends on the interests of certain people?! The previous formulation including the
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I don't know how common the hyphenated-phrase-word is in the literature, nor its distribution in Continental v. Analytic philosophy. I know they are indispensable in phenomenology with ready-at-hand, being-in-itself, etcetera. I think they are a great tool. On another aside, you may be interested to
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In my opinion Metalogic and Philosophy of Logic - as the terms are used - relate to distinct (if sometimes ralated) issues & the articles should not be merged. Godel's incompleteness theorem for instance is itself a metalogical theorem; its significance might be an issue in philosophy of logic.
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from metamathematics or mathematical logic, which is odd since the author makes a clear effort to avoid these words in the text. I haven't looked at other authors' use of the term, but at present I see no significant difference between the material presented in this book and the material ordinarily
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eventually break down into dialects because their adherents are enamored with language-in-itself. Mathematicians on the other hand look past all the variations in symbols and notation rather seamlessly because they care about what lies behind the language. So why do you think the hyphenated form is
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This is what I mean by hypercritical to the point of uselessness. Take a step back, take a deep breath, now say it with me Arthur: "Logic concerns itself with the truths-of-logic." You see that wasn't so bad. Your attempts to portray this straightforward statement into a muddled mess will leave the
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My main aim is to make accessible to readers without any specialist training in mathematics, and with only an elementary knowledge of modern logic, complete proofs of metatheorems of standard (i.e.basically truth-functional) first-order logic, including a complete proof of the undecidability of a
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I think this may be a result of a kind of a view of philosophy as some kind of namby-pamby effort. The view that logic is more about "correctness of arguments" than about the actual abstract concepts misses the more important thing going on... it's like we are trying to out-abstract each other or
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I'd sure like to know the difference between metalogic and mathematical logic. If there isn't one, then the merge sounds appropriate. Also I wonder why Gentzen's consistency proof of PA isn't on the list of results. Also, if "metalogic is the formal study of logical systems using mathematical
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If I presented this outline to a colleague and asked them what sort of course would cover these topics, the answer would be an introductory course in mathematical logic. It appears to me that, despite the terminology employed in various parts of the book, its main purpose is to present the basic
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I found a different reference that I believe expresses the same idea as Hunter's preface, but more clearly, and added that to the lede. I also added what I think it a slightly more clear definition by Hunter himself. After looking through it, I don't see Hunter's book as particularly precise in
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RE: "the author makes a clear effort to avoid these words in the text". Is this true, or is it that "mathematical logic" wasn't standard usage as a term when the book was written? I say this having studied mathematical logic in a math course, as well as having taken a philosophy class titled
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I hope that this book will equip those who are not mathematical specialists not only to tackle more advanced works on standard logic, such as Kleene or Mendelson or Shoenfield or Smullyan, but to frame philosophically interesting systems of non-standard logic and to prove metatheorems about
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That latter topic, about non-standard logic, does not seem to be covered in detail, based on my reading of the full table of contents. What is covered in detail is a first course in mathematical logic, occasionally with nonstandard terminology. — Carl
1224:"Symbolic Logic" - where the professor said on the first day that the course would be more accurately described as "Mathematical Logic". Go figure. Anyway, our textbooks were, {drumroll}, Metalogic by Hunter, and Computability and Logic by Boolos. 468:
I also don't know what "Logic concerns itself with the truths-of-logic." means; it seem tautologous. Is that a quote from the reference? The reference is fortunately available at the library, so I'm going to pick it up on the way home. — Carl
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Does anyone know what this is supposed to mean? Maybe someone was trying to make a point, but what? The word is just meta+logic. How is μεταλογική an English term? I'll delete it unless there are reasonable objections.
446:). The source is a reliable one. It may not be good enough for you to recognize it's existence, but that doesn't matter at all. It does exist. It's a source that may or may not agree with your thesis. Live with it. 1089:
hyphenated words was certainly a more precise and rigorous account. I pieced it together from the text so as to make sense, rather than use a quote that falls way short. I am truly puzzled. Please reconsider.
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I never said that Metalogic isn't m + p theory. It seems to me that there are some formal language fundamentals that need to be understood commonly in order to move on to either Proof theory or Model theory
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more accurately: routine of change (dancing numbers in the matrices of sets, which might not cause any physical change, but sometimes they do) - any algorithmic routine within topological algebra (read:
384:. We also need a citation for use of the term, and some citation for its importance in the field (whatever field that might be). So a merger is inappropriate but stubification might very well be. — 1297:(on gbooks) to see what exactly metalogic is. Those chapters cover soundness, completeness, Godel's theorems, some computability. Based on that, metalogic is the name given by some philosophers to 1246:
I would tend to agree with the sentiment given by your professor, that the material Hunter covers is typically called mathematical logic. Every author has a viewpoint. Hunter says in his preface,
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goal. Tarski's philosophical goal was to provide a definition of the ordinary notion of truth, that is the notions of truth commonly used in science, mathematics, and everyday discourse.
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When juxtaposed with the other hyphenated term, the distinction being discussed is clear (even if by itself it is not). The phrase and term are from the book. This material is on the
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commies are cosmologically antipersonocrats, but at the same time hardcore political personocrats; and their philosophy of atheism is metalogically inferior than that of the
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I was just about to go in and remove the hyphens in favor of italicization. Thanks Carl. The whole thing looks wonderful now (although it is still a stub). What's next?
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on Knowledge. If you would like to support the project, please visit the project page, where you can get more details on how you can help, and where you can join the
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I'm neutral at the moment. I don't have a clear distinction to propose between metalogic and metamathematics. On the other hand I essentially never use the word
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is: metalogic -- study of formal properties, e.g. consistency, completeness, decidability of formal logical systems. I think this article verges on being just a
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merger of metalogic and metamathematics articles. Specifically, the merger has no support from editors of the metamathematics article beyond the proposer.
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before you nuke IRAN, don't be IRAN (a cosmological personocrat); before you nuke the Russian President, don't be a cosmological personocrat like him
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In fact it also appears that philosophy of mathematics and philosophy of logic are taught as separate classes, with substantially different syllabi.
1845: 1295: 1293: 1524:. It could be that some of those who do use the word, do see a distinction. I would like to hear more from anyone who distinguishes the terms. -- 1860: 1194:
I am planning to look up the other reference in the article, to see if it has any deeper discussion of metalogic that could be used here. — Carl
676:"While logic concerns itself with the truths-of-logic, metalogic concerns itself with the theory of sentences-used-to-express-truths-of-logic." 106: 1441: 218: 1855: 1865: 1798: 1702: 1389: 1355: 544:? It's still the case that "Logic concerns itself with (the) truths-of-logic" is either tautological or meaningless. My calling it 1809:
The metalogical definition of energy in respect to the topological definition of physics (usage of matrices, filters, σ-algebra etc)
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As for Greg's immediate comment, _mathematical_ "philosophy of logic" and _logical_ or _mathematical_ "philosophy of mathematics"
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logic" (per Carl) then shouldn't there be a lot more topics mentioned, like modal logic, temporal logic, categorical logic, etc.?
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was mistaken, unless truths-of-logic are further refined to mean something other than the "logical" construct. (As an aside, do
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
1498: 1477: 683:...and when read to the end makes complete sense. The hyphens bind together one concept which is needed to be clear here. 1509: 1313: 33: 1128:. It's pretty common to define logic as the study of correct inference, which likely influenced my paraphrase. — Carl 290: 168: 1749:μεταλογική: μετά "follow on after"; here used for deeper causal analysis + λόγος "reason")": --> 1403: 842: 812: 602: 1624: 827: 1062:
results of mathematical logic from a different perspective. I see no explanation in the book of how the results
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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energy = change or potentiality of change (when we describe the wave function within set theory)
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with specific points to improve the article (or to support your proposed article). This page is
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vast majority incredulous. If you have such a thesis then by all means publish it (but not here
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the same. Possibly, there is some distinction in matters far removed from mathematics.... —
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Tarski's second goal had to do with logical methodology or, as it was called at the time,
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philosophers construct phrases out of apparently unrelated words, or only those from the
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Thinking about it, the article should probably be a quasi-disambiguation dealing with
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is what I would have put here if I had full access to the internals of Knowledge. —
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I have the reference in front of me. Here is a summary of the table of contents
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Representation of functions and definability of functions in formal systems
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I'd like to see articles or redirects for all of the following for clarity:
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Proof of the incompleteness of the full theory of the natural numbers **
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In spite of the introduction to the book, that definition clearly
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Historically, we may distinguish two goals of Tarski's theory: a
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It think this article should be merged with metamathematics.
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Please create the Chinese page, or even pay a translator.
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is personhood self-causal? some physicists claim that
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It is my understanding that artificial languages like
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system of first-order predicate logic with identity.
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You can look at the other reference on google books.
101:, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of 264: 1067:considered elementary mathematical logic. — Carl 1712:We can't do anything with that unless secondary 1657:We don't have a metalogical page on the subject. 1649:ἀθεότητα ἀθεότης godlessness αθεότητα αθεότης 421:does not deal solely, or even primarily, with 745:article in which I used words with subscripts 8: 1673:even if personhood isn't the most important 958:Finite and countable sets. Uncountable sets. 1543:sections offered on Metalogic this winter. 19: 1788: 1692: 1022:metatheorems:Lowenheim-Skolem, compactness 261: 152: 47: 987:deductive systems, the deduction theorem 975:2. Truth-functional propositional logic 409:is difficult to distinguish from simple 1639:due to memories and thinking processing 154: 49: 1795:2A02:587:4124:7400:B971:AE19:BF2B:D35B 1699:2A02:587:4102:6800:B4C6:1C57:B36A:8117 1054:prenex normal form, Skolem normal form 1036:4. First order logic - undecidability 222:about philosophy content on Knowledge. 7: 1457:The following discussion is closed. 961:Proof of uncountability of the reals 206:This article is within the scope of 95:This article is within the scope of 1851:High-importance Philosophy articles 1406:) (original proposer at metalogic) 1292:I've looked in a couple more books 923:My impression of the text by Hunter 38:It is of interest to the following 328:on 14 January 2008. The result of 14: 1841:Low-priority mathematics articles 964:Sequences, effective enumerations 931:1. Introduction, general notions 115:Knowledge:WikiProject Mathematics 1836:Start-Class mathematics articles 1611:The discussion above is closed. 1028:nonstandard models, categoricity 313: 228:Knowledge:WikiProject Philosophy 193: 183: 156: 118:Template:WikiProject Mathematics 82: 72: 51: 20: 1846:Start-Class Philosophy articles 998:3. First order predicate logic 955:1-1 correspondence, cardinality 940:Metatheory, metatheory of logic 320:This article was nominated for 248:This article has been rated as 231:Template:WikiProject Philosophy 135:This article has been rated as 1861:High-importance logic articles 1722:not a general discussion forum 1600:23:57, 21 September 2009 (UTC) 1582:23:56, 21 September 2009 (UTC) 1557:21:12, 18 September 2009 (UTC) 1534:20:36, 18 September 2009 (UTC) 1515:09:33, 18 September 2009 (UTC) 1319:09:11, 18 September 2009 (UTC) 1: 1048:a formal system of arithmetic 843:theorem-about-a-formal-system 813:truth-under-an-interpretation 577:with neither interpretation ( 109:and see a list of open tasks. 1539:It looks like there will be 1450:15:02, 21 January 2013 (UTC) 1278:14:03, 19 January 2008 (UTC) 1234:00:40, 19 January 2008 (UTC) 1207:15:23, 16 January 2008 (UTC) 1174:04:01, 16 January 2008 (UTC) 1147:03:04, 16 January 2008 (UTC) 1109:02:27, 16 January 2008 (UTC) 1080:01:31, 16 January 2008 (UTC) 1007:model-theoretic metatheorems 967:Theorems about infinite sets 915:01:44, 16 January 2008 (UTC) 879:01:37, 16 January 2008 (UTC) 757:01:24, 16 January 2008 (UTC) 621:23:28, 15 January 2008 (UTC) 594:23:19, 15 January 2008 (UTC) 565:23:15, 15 January 2008 (UTC) 512:22:28, 15 January 2008 (UTC) 482:21:48, 15 January 2008 (UTC) 456:21:06, 15 January 2008 (UTC) 434:17:42, 15 January 2008 (UTC) 393:17:49, 15 January 2008 (UTC) 364:11:07, 14 January 2008 (UTC) 1625:Metalogical analysis of God 1324:Metalogic = metamathematics 828:proof-about-a-formal-system 532:Could you then explain why 349:13:06, 30 August 2007 (UTC) 1882: 1856:Start-Class logic articles 833:theorem-of-a-formal-system 671:The whole sentence reads: 254:project's importance scale 1866:Logic task force articles 1803:15:09, 22 July 2019 (UTC) 1771:03:10, 18 July 2019 (UTC) 1031:philosphical implications 289: 260: 247: 178: 134: 67: 46: 1737:00:21, 7 July 2019 (UTC) 1707:22:24, 6 July 2019 (UTC) 1613:Please do not modify it. 1459:Please do not modify it. 818:proof-in-a-formal-system 141:project's priority scale 1485:goal and a (so-called) 1051:proof of undecidability 1004:Semantics, satisfaction 943:Theorem and metatheorem 265:Associated task forces: 98:WikiProject Mathematics 853:derivation-in-a-system 286: 209:WikiProject Philosophy 28:This article is rated 1668:pretopological spaces 1301:. A formal def given 1025:semantic completeness 1010:a deductive apparatus 990:semantic completeness 608:tag that I can find; 285: 1820:filter (mathematics) 1787:It is important!!! 1372:) (metamathematics) 1358:) (metamathematics) 1019:first-order theories 376:, as it consists of 121:mathematics articles 1629:simple (philosophy) 1042:recursive functions 405:Thinking about it, 234:Philosophy articles 1633:information theory 1545:UCI class schedule 1460: 1428:as per request at 1392:) (both articles) 1299:mathematical logic 581:) or derivations ( 287: 219:general discussion 90:Mathematics portal 34:content assessment 1805: 1793:comment added by 1709: 1697:comment added by 1549:Pontiff Greg Bard 1512: 1503: 1502: 1458: 1447: 1316: 1276: 1205: 1166:Pontiff Greg Bard 1149: 1139: 1101:Pontiff Greg Bard 1078: 1001:A formal language 913: 881: 865:comment added by 857:formal derivation 749:Pontiff Greg Bard 603:importance-inline 598:Also, there's no 504:Pontiff Greg Bard 480: 448:Pontiff Greg Bard 356:Pontiff Greg Bard 336: 335: 308: 307: 304: 303: 300: 299: 296: 295: 201:Philosophy portal 151: 150: 147: 146: 1873: 1757: 1756: 1752: 1733: 1728: 1714:reliable sources 1510: 1487:metamathematical 1475: 1440: 1314: 1266: 1195: 1140: 1129: 1068: 947:effective method 934:Formal languages 903: 860: 607: 601: 575:formal languages 470: 317: 316: 310: 272: 262: 236: 235: 232: 229: 226: 203: 198: 197: 196: 187: 180: 179: 174: 171: 160: 153: 123: 122: 119: 116: 113: 92: 87: 86: 76: 69: 68: 63: 55: 48: 31: 25: 24: 16: 1881: 1880: 1876: 1875: 1874: 1872: 1871: 1870: 1826: 1825: 1811: 1778: 1758: 1754: 1750: 1748: 1747: 1731: 1726: 1670:are self-causal 1647: 1641: 1631:) according to 1617: 1616: 1572:metamathematics 1493:metamathematics 1463: 1454: 1453: 1452: 1448: 1426:Non-admin close 1326: 1290: 1039:Church's thesis 978:Truth functions 937:Interpretations 925: 605: 599: 573:discussions of 556:tradition?) — 423:truths-of-logic 413:. 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838: 834: 831: 829: 826: 823: 819: 816: 814: 811: 810: 809: 808: 807: 806: 805: 804: 803: 802: 801: 800: 799: 798: 797: 796: 782: 781: 780: 779: 778: 777: 776: 775: 774: 773: 772: 771: 758: 754: 750: 746: 741: 740: 739: 738: 737: 736: 735: 734: 733: 732: 731: 730: 715: 711: 707: 706: 705: 704: 703: 702: 701: 700: 699: 698: 697: 696: 682: 675: 674: 673: 672: 670: 669: 668: 667: 666: 665: 664: 663: 662: 661: 660: 659: 644: 643: 642: 641: 640: 639: 638: 637: 636: 635: 634: 633: 622: 619: 615: 611: 604: 597: 595: 592: 588: 584: 580: 576: 572: 568: 566: 563: 559: 555: 551: 547: 543: 539: 535: 531: 530: 529: 528: 527: 526: 525: 524: 523: 522: 513: 509: 505: 501: 497: 496: 495: 494: 493: 492: 491: 490: 483: 478: 474: 467: 466: 465: 464: 463: 462: 457: 453: 449: 445: 440: 439: 438: 437: 436: 435: 432: 428: 424: 420: 416: 412: 408: 400: 394: 391: 387: 383: 379: 375: 371: 370: 369: 368: 365: 361: 357: 353: 352: 351: 350: 347: 338: 331: 327: 323: 319: 312: 311: 292: 284: 280: 279: 276: 274: 269: 268: 263: 259: 255: 251: 245: 242: 241: 238: 221: 220: 215: 211: 210: 202: 191: 189: 186: 182: 181: 177: 170: 165: 162: 159: 155: 142: 138: 132: 129: 128: 125: 108: 104: 100: 99: 91: 85: 80: 78: 75: 71: 70: 66: 60: 57: 54: 50: 45: 41: 35: 27: 23: 18: 17: 1812: 1789:— Preceding 1784: 1781:Chinese: 元逻辑 1776:Translations 1759: 1724:. Thanks, — 1693:— Preceding 1678: 1648: 1620: 1612: 1594:Arthur Rubin 1589: 1576:Arthur Rubin 1540: 1538: 1521: 1504: 1490: 1486: 1482: 1471: 1465: 1456: 1417: 1408: 1400: 1386: 1380:Arthur Rubin 1375: 1374: 1366: 1352: 1346:Eric_Herboso 1341: 1340: 1336: 1333:No consensus 1332: 1291: 1063: 1016:metatheorems 993:decidability 946: 822:formal proof 614:Arthur Rubin 609: 587:Arthur Rubin 583:proof theory 579:model theory 570: 558:Arthur Rubin 549: 545: 542:proof theory 538:model theory 536:is not then 500:page 3 intro 427:Arthur Rubin 422: 414: 404: 386:Arthur Rubin 382:proof theory 378:model theory 374:formal logic 373: 342: 339:oppose merge 249: 217: 207: 137:Low-priority 136: 96: 62:Low‑priority 40:WikiProjects 1644:godlessness 1255:and later, 1141:—Preceding 1013:consistency 984:consistency 861:—Preceding 847:metatheorem 717:so strange? 112:Mathematics 103:mathematics 59:Mathematics 30:Start-class 1830:Categories 1690:free world 1562:I thought 1409:Comments: 1331:Result is 1307:WP:DICTDEF 1226:Tparameter 225:Philosophy 214:philosophy 164:Philosophy 1679:metalogic 1637:mereology 1621:make page 1564:metalogic 1526:Trovatore 1522:metalogic 1411:Trovatore 981:semantics 710:Esperanto 534:metalogic 407:metalogic 332:was keep. 1791:unsigned 1695:unsigned 1430:WP:ANRFC 1421:contribs 1404:contribs 1390:contribs 1378:!votes: 1370:contribs 1360:Gregbard 1356:contribs 1344:!votes: 875:contribs 867:Gregbard 863:unsigned 646:however. 571:excludes 354:agreed. 1732:Neonate 1675:quality 1627:(not a 1376:Support 1143:comment 743:see an 714:Volapük 401:Dubious 346:Philogo 322:merging 252:on the 139:on the 1597:(talk) 1579:(talk) 1568:WP:NEO 1566:was a 1342:Oppose 1337:Oppose 1064:differ 618:(talk) 591:(talk) 585:). — 562:(talk) 554:German 431:(talk) 425:). — 390:(talk) 36:scale. 1727:Paleo 1718:cited 1437:Isaac 1259:them. 546:false 444:WP:OR 419:logic 415:false 411:logic 324:with 291:Logic 169:Logic 1799:talk 1767:talk 1751:edit 1716:are 1703:talk 1635:and 1553:talk 1530:talk 1511:ping 1507:Pcap 1415:talk 1398:talk 1394:Pcap 1384:talk 1364:talk 1350:talk 1315:ping 1311:Pcap 1303:here 1288:2009 1273:talk 1230:talk 1202:talk 1170:talk 1136:talk 1105:talk 1075:talk 910:talk 871:talk 753:talk 712:and 610:that 508:talk 477:talk 452:talk 380:and 360:talk 244:High 1590:are 1541:two 1445:Vex 1434:Van 1432:by 1269:CBM 1198:CBM 1132:CBM 1071:CBM 906:CBM 859:) 616:| 589:| 560:| 550:all 473:CBM 429:| 388:| 131:Low 1832:: 1801:) 1769:) 1735:– 1705:) 1623:: 1555:) 1532:) 1499:” 1478:“ 1469:: 1442:WS 1423:) 1309:. 1271:· 1232:) 1200:· 1172:) 1134:· 1107:) 1073:· 908:· 877:) 873:• 755:) 747:. 606:}} 600:{{ 540:+ 510:) 475:· 454:) 362:) 344:-- 271:/ 167:: 1822:) 1797:( 1765:( 1755:] 1701:( 1551:( 1528:( 1418:· 1413:( 1401:· 1396:( 1387:· 1382:( 1367:· 1362:( 1353:· 1348:( 1275:) 1267:( 1228:( 1204:) 1196:( 1168:( 1138:) 1130:( 1103:( 1077:) 1069:( 949:s 912:) 904:( 869:( 855:( 849:) 845:( 839:) 835:( 824:) 820:( 751:( 506:( 479:) 471:( 450:( 417:( 358:( 256:. 143:. 42::

Index


content assessment
WikiProjects
WikiProject icon
Mathematics
WikiProject icon
icon
Mathematics portal
WikiProject Mathematics
mathematics
the discussion
Low
project's priority scale
WikiProject icon
Philosophy
Logic
WikiProject icon
Philosophy portal
WikiProject Philosophy
philosophy
general discussion
High
project's importance scale
Taskforce icon
Logic
merging
Metamathematics
the discussion
Philogo
13:06, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

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