Talk:Michael Witzel - Knowledge (XXG)

1263:"Michael Witzel's CV is perhaps the best example. For the first part of his career, his publications were restricted mainly to German venues interspersed with minor Indian and Nepali and German journals. The dissertation (Witzel 1974) was self-published. The journals included the Journal of the Ganganath Jha Research Institute, Vishveshvaranand Indological Journal, Studien zur Indologie und Iranistik, and the Journal of the Nepal Research Centre (the latter, again, controlled and paid for by Germans). The latter offers another example of how German Indologists were reliant on starting their own, mostly short-lived publishing venues: eight volumes appeared intermittently from 1977 to 1988, four volumes between 1993 and 2001, and the journal was then dormant for eight years, until briefly revived—for a single issue—in 2009. Chapters were published in various Festschriften (for Wolfgang Voigt, Paul Thieme, Karl Hoffmann, B. R. Sharma, Wilhelm Rau, J. C. Heesterman) and some Japanese proceedings. The first major publication was Willem Caland's Kleine Schriften (Witzel 1990), but it was paid for by the Glasenapp Stiftung (type 3 in our typology above). The Electronic Journal of Vedic Studies finally started in 1995, thus assuring Witzel of a publishing venue. The term "journal" may be an exaggeration, since "issues" consist of unformatted, unedited mostly one-article pdf files uploaded to the internet. Many articles were published more than once. "How to Enter the Vedic Mind? Strategies in Translating a Brāhmaṇa Text" (Witzel 1996a), first published in Translating, Translations, Translators from India to the West (in the Harvard Oriental Series, whose editorship Witzel assumed in 1990), reappeared as Witzel 2013. "Early Sanskritization" (Witzel 1994), first published in the Electronic Journal of Vedic Studies, reappeared in the Journal of the Indological Society of Southern Africa (Witzel 1996b) and in Recht, Staat und Verwaltung im klassischen Indien (Witzel 1997). The latter was not coincidentally edited by Witzel’s "old friend" Bernhard Kölver (Witzel 2014a, 16n44). Two edited volumes (Witzel, ed. 1997, and Osada and Witzel, eds. 2011) followed. Both were published in the Harvard Oriental Series by the Department of Sanskrit and Indian Studies and its successor since 2011, the Department of South Asian Studies. Witzel functioned as series editor, illustrating how firmly entrenched the German model of the department as a vehicle for a mandarin professoriate's career interests has become. Witzel's edition of the Kaṭha Āraṇyaka, self-published from "Erlangen-Kathmandu" in 1974, reappeared in Witzel's Harvard Oriental Series in 2004. Once again, it was published by Witzel’s chair, the Department of Sanskrit and Indian Studies, Harvard University.". (Source: Vishwa Adluri and Joydeep Bagchee, 833:" "Worse still, when treating the myths of non-literate societies, Witzel consistently ignores the more recent, more reliable, and less prejudicial work of British, American, and French anthropologists, in favor of dated German literature steeped in the Kulturkreis paradigm, which used a mix of racial, cultural, and geographic factors to categorize the world's peoples in ways that naturalized, legitimated, and reinforced the privilege of Europe’s colonial powers" (Lincoln 2015, 444). "Scholars who worked within this paradigm identified with many disciplines (Ethnologie, Anthropologie, Volkskunde, Völkerkunde, Rassenkunde, and Rassenwissenschaft ), but shared a large number of assumptions no longer intellectually or morally tenable. More important than differences in disciplinary orientation distinction between Germans and Austrians, the latter of whom tended to be missionaries and whose racism could be softer (condescension, rather than contempt). Equally important is the difference between works written prior to 1920, whose subtexts justify colonial expansion and domination, and those written after 1930, which were strongly inflected by Nazi ideology. Works of the 1920s either continued the former trend or anticipated the later, and sometimes both. Witzel relies on a great many works written by scholars of this sort, not just for data, but for many important lines of interpretation. Those he cites directly include Adolf Bastian, Hermann Baumann, Fritz Bornemann, Erich Brauer, Ernst Dammann, Otto Dempwolf, Hans Findeisen, Leo Frobenius, Martin Gusinde, Beatrix Heintze, Hermann Hochegger, Adolf Jensen, Karl Jettmar, Walter Lehmann, R. Lehmann-Nitsche, Johannes Maringer, Hans Nevermann, Alois Pache, Heinz Reschke, Hans Schärer, Paul Schebesta, Wilhelm Schmidt, August Schmitz, Carl Leonhard Schultze-Jena, Wilhelm Staudacher, Paul Wirz, and Josef Dominik Wölfel. There is now a large critical literature on scholarship of this sort, including Gothsch (1983); Marx (1988); Fischer (1990); Linimayr (1994); Jacobeit et al. (1994); Hauschild ed. (1995); Streck ed. (2000); and Evans (2010)" (Ibid., 447n4). "Rather incredibly, Witzel cites one testimony of this sort as a confirmatory antecedent of his own position. The passage cited is taken from Baumann (1936, 1), a work written by a learned scholar and committed Nazi, whose research in Africa was meant to justify German colonization of inferior peoples. He is, moreover, one of the authors on whom Witzel relied most heavily, with more than a hundred citations; on his life and work, see Braun (1995)" (Ibid., 448n7)." 808:"Finally, the startling claim that the book proves the existence of two races, going against all other scholarly data, would have profound implications for global society as a whole, yet these implications are never discussed by the author. Instead, in his conclusion he claims that the reason Abrahamic religions have made inroads into the global south in recent times is simply because Laurasian myth is "better" and "more complete" than any ever formulated by the Gondwana themselves (430), a remarkably naïve view of global political history. To conclude: this book will no doubt prove exciting for the gullible and the racist, yet it is useless—and frustrating—for any serious scholar. This is a work which should never have reached book publication stage: a whole series of scholarly checks and balances—ranging from Harvard's venerable Folklore and Mythology Department, to the editors and reviewers at Oxford University Press—should have been in place to guide the scholarly inquiry, which would have prevented the socially irresponsible publication of such grandiose, brash, and explicitly racist claims based on ill-informed, highly problematic scholarship." 1344:

is particularly perplexing: the authors of the BORI critical edition self-consciously borrowed and applied the principles of textual criticism pioneered by 19th century Germans in their edition of the Mah ābh ārata. Ethnocentrism, plagiarism, and bias transcend national boundaries, and a more even-handed study would have at least alluded to the ways in which “German Indology” has become a trans-cultural phenomenon that has been applied and transformed by thinkers beyond Europe. What makes certain non-German historical-critical and text-critical scholars praiseworthy, while others are condemned? As valuable as this book is in its critique of scientism in philology, because of the authors’ rhetorical choices, The Nay Science may exacerbate the false idea that there is an impassable gulf between the practice of Indology in continental Europe and the way it is practiced elsewhere, especially in North America. In reality, these boundaries are disintegrating thanks to the increasing interactions of a younger generation of European, North American, South American, and Asian Indologists.

849:"Thus, through the German government's efforts, which unthinkingly poured money into Indology, his colleagues' collusion, who initiated him into their publishing networks, and the system’s institutional inertia, which places academic credentials above valid argument, Witzel's problematic views attained a wide circulation and were canonized as "scholarship." As with Schlegel 1819 (the source of the terms arisch and Arier and the thesis that the Germans were originally known as Aryans when they lived in the Orient; see Wiesehöfer 1990), Lassen 1830 (the source of the thesis of a special proximity between the Aryans and the "warlike Germans"), Schlegel 1834 (the source of the biracial theory of Indian origins), and Klapproth 1823 (the source of the term indogermanisch; see Shapiro 1981) toxic ideas that originally emerged in Germany to assure the Germans of their identity (as rational, heroic, and culturally and intellectually superior) entered into the world thanks to a publishing system designed to serve the professoriate." 841:"Witzel’s case is not an anomaly. It is evidence of the system's "normal" functioning. The Humboldtian research university developed primarily as a means for Germany to accelerate the production of new knowledge (including the new ideas of race, historicism, and nationhood) and to funnel them into the world in a bid for intellectual and cultural parity with the Western powers, England and France. Under this system's auspices, the university professor, previously in the mold of the English gentleman-scholar, was tasked with developing the historical and anthropological research that would affirm German exceptionalism. Enhanced publishing opportunities, with the departmental journal and the dissertation series as their crux, were central to this initiative." 2517:"As far as I am aware, the Hindu Education Foundation and Vedic Foundation and their supporters do not number among their ranks any academic specialists in Indian history or religion other than Professor Bajpai himself. It is a remarkable fact that, in a state which has perhaps the leading public research university system in the United States, these two foundations could not find a single professor of Indian history or religion within the UC system (with its ten campuses) to support their views. Indeed, it would be no exaggeration to say that they would be hard pressed to find a single scholar at any research university in the United States who would support their views." 1928:"As far as I am aware, the Hindu Education Foundation and Vedic Foundation and their supporters do not number among their ranks any academic specialists in Indian history or religion other than Professor Bajpai himself. It is a remarkable fact that, in a state which has perhaps the leading public research university system in the United States, these two foundations could not find a single professor of Indian history or religion within the UC system (with its ten campuses) to support their views. Indeed, it would be no exaggeration to say that they would be hard pressed to find a single scholar at any research university in the United States who would support their views." 825:"If supported , the notion of the superior white and inferior dark races will be scientifically validated. This is the real agenda of the book, but its ‘science’ is rubbish. it does not even rise to the level of pseudo-science. Mythology is just a camouflage to push this prejudice that is simply not worth spending time over. Except for the terminology, its arguments are indistinguishable from those of Houston Chamberlain, Arthur de Gobineau and other race theorists who provided justification of the Nazi idea of superior Aryan race. But their source was European, more specifically Teutonic German." 2457:

Pari-shad (VHP), which have been responsible for numerous violations of civil liber-ties and human rights against religious minorities, women, Dalits, and Adivasis. Both the RSS and VHP belong to the militant Hindu conglomerate known as the Sangh Parivar, which champions the transformation of India’s secular democracy into a Hindu nation. At the ideological level, militant Hindu nation-alism, or Hindutva, has evolved into a distinct form of fascism that creates an opposition between “insiders” and “outsiders,” seeking to assert Hindu religious identity in nationalist and culturalist terms.

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Bhagavad Gītā, respectively. In discussing Hauer, the authors write that “ with all other Indologists, his scholarship was placed entirely in the service of religious, nationalistic, or ethnocentric needs” (p. 277). Sweeping statements such as this appear frequently, but the authors of The Nay Science fail to substantiate these charges with any sustained analysis of the interpretive mistakes of living scholars. As it stands, the evidence presented against contemporary Indological scholarship in this book consists primarily of guilt by association.

411: 1749:", not about notable engangement of the person in criticism or as a critic. We can explicitly call them "critics" and explicitly refer to their observational stance on whatever topic "criticism", as long as this characterization of the person's activity is properly sourced. I don't see that this objection has been raised; instead, I have seen just a mechanical removal/replacement of a word associated with a non-policy essay that talks about a 698: 708: 677: 349: 318: 486: 465: 2374:"I don't think you could find a single scholar of Indian history in the entire United States who teaches at a research university who would support (the Hindu groups') position," said Vinay Lal, a history professor at UCLA. "Most people on their side are Indian engineers, physicists, chemists, who think their opinion is just as good as those who have spent a lifetime studying these subjects." 214: 591: 2907:- Yes, you are right, if it was any other page, it would be reliable. Not sure i can continue explaining the same thing again and again, for it not to be addressed appropriately or discussed. As an experienced editor, is it all right to utilize a source that Witzel co-authored (as the second author) to support the events that he was directly involved in? Are we going to ignore that @ 570: 496: 287: 2708:- I saw that about Pacific News Service - thank you very much. The editor also mentioned, "Without a doubt, PNS produced opinionated journalism with a strong point of view, but I am unaware that they regularly published falsehoods. Sadly, the economic crisis of 21st century journalism led them to close down in 2017" which seems a bit concerning as well though." Thoughts? 601: 431: 335: 2733:

of experience with the controversy or how big it may have been (learned more here as i researched) - but I worry for the subjects safety and well-being if it is indeed serious. He had an opinion on the events that occurred, and I'm sure there is another side of the story as well, but using his quotes about those who disagreed with him to paint the picture as

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both the financial backer of and buyer of last resort for Indological publications. But German publications are translatable into institutional status and, ultimately, a foreign publishing contract. Many German Indologists’ CVs reveal how they progressively built up a dossier of home-grown publications, before securing international positions.

2860:. My issue is not that Witzel is not an expert in his field or somehow not reliable - but the nam is human and he's directly involved in the events that occurred - that does make for heated opinions, whether you'd like to think so or not. I'm urging you to use reliable sources, because that's what the policy outlines - not me. 359: 2732:

Obviously, the controversy stirred up heat on many forums and media outlets that may be independent, reliable, and most importantly one step removed from it. It would be far more beneficial to have information like that included rather than the subjects words. Lastly, I dont have an incredible amount

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I think you have to agree that there is a certain one-sidedness in removing the Reditt-source, while retaining the sacbee.com source, which contains more or less the same info as the Reditt-source ("sectarian") and the Pacific News (a quote by Vinay Lal)(sorry, now I do bring it up here). And, to be

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Perhaps in the name of a corrective to previous injustices, the authors consistently deny the hermeneutical charity to their German objects of study that they extend to Gandhi and to the authors of the Bhandarkar Oriental Research Institute’s critical edition of the Mah ābh ārata. The latter example

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Following the Nazi horrors and the American Civil Rights Movement race is now a dirty word. This does not mean that racial prejudices have been eradicated the way polio has been eradicated. Some writers, even academics at supposedly prestigious institutions continue to produce works advancing racist

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Without pronouncing one way or the other on this particular source or interview, IF a reliable source has conducted the interview (and so can trusted to transcribe and check the person's words completely and correctly), then a quote from an interview might be useable source in an article about that

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A more serious problem is The Nay Science’s criticism of many of today’s major Indological scholars. In footnotes, the authors fault James L. Fitzgerald and Angelika Malinar in particular for their erroneous application of the “pseudocritical” methods of German Indology to the Mah ābh ārata and the

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Due to the more open and competitive nature of its market, the situation differs somewhat in the United States. There is greater separation between chairs/departments and publishing organs, and publishers are answerable to the reading public’s interests, in contrast with Germany, where the state is

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Unfortunately, that is not at all what I'm saying - nice try. One step removed would be using the information from the secondary source alone, not the words that came from his own mouth as an analysis of the controversial events that have occurred. The quotes in this context are not necessary here

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The point of high quality sources for BLP is, I think, to protect the subject of a BLP against unjustified attacks. Yet, the quote you removed is an opinion of Witzel himself. Since self-published sources, that is, sources authored by the subject on the subject, are allowed, it seems to me that an

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Th ere are two major problems with the HEF’s and VF’s edits. First, they are not consistent with prevailing scholarship on Indian history. Second, they represent a sectarian perspective aligned with extremist Hindu groups in India such as the Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh (RSS) and the Vishwa Hindu

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WP:NOCRIT says "Articles should include significant criticisms of the subject while avoiding undue weight and POV forking"; the header summarizes the topic of the section, namely Witzel's criticism of Indigenous Aryanism, and not criticism aimed at Witzel, so WP:NOCRIT does not apply here. I also

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is on those who wish to retain, restore, or undelete the disputed material. When material about living persons has been deleted on good-faith BLP objections, any editor wishing to add, restore, or undelete it must ensure it complies with Knowledge (XXG)'s content policies. If it is to be restored

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The HEF campaign was dismissed by critics as "one driven by the sectarian agenda of the Sangh Parivar, a term commonly used to describe the Hindu nationalist triumvirate of India's Bharatiya Janata Party, the Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh and the Vishwa Hindu Parishad." In a letter to the Board of

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does not suffice for your statement "you're incorrect"; you'll have to be specific, and answer to my objections. Selectively removing info refefenced to a source while retaining other info referenced to that source is not "good-faith BLP objections," and begs further explanation. Otherwise, it's

3093:? I think you all me know me well enough to know that I don't do such a mass-appeal for frivolous reasons; you all have seen me editing at India-related pages for many years, and you all know what efforts I put in those pages, and what kind of responses I've recieved once and a while. Regards, 2022:

In an interview with rediff India abroad Senior editor Suman Guha Mazumder, Witzel acknowledged that the intentions of the Hindu Education Foundation and Vedic Foundation to correct misrepresentations of Hinduism were good, but the way they went about it was sectarian, narrow, and historically

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I find more than bizzarre when Joshua Jonathan has spent years to safeguard this BLP from repeated attempts of politically-motivated, poorly sourced smear against the subject, only to be associated with (should I say accused of?) maintaining "defamatory" content about the BLP's subject. It's

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My understanding is that you are not permitted to restore disputed information to a BLP if we are stating it is a BLP issue (which we are). I have clearly stated it is UNDUE, poorly sourced, and critical. That is more than enough in my understanding. You are engaging in

2222:- I see a lot of discussion has gone down since going to sleep last night... I'm happy to talk about my thoughts here and elsewhere as I go through the updates. Please help me understand why you feel an interview is an appropriate source to include in a 2027:

with the argument "Interview is not a high quality reliable source in accordance to WP:BLP", but retained other statements from Witzel from the same source; that's inconsequent. WP:BLP says nothing about interviews, but might be considered

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2825:. You should try to communicate what your real objections are, instead of dwelling so much on the details of policies: 'I find it unnecessarily offensive, shall we paraphrase Witzel's quotes, and do we really need two of them?' Regards, 2998:

On a page about Witzel, statements by Witzel, attributed to Witzel, from reliable secondary sources, are perfectly fine to present Witzel's views. Nevertheless, they have been paraphrased, and the quotes themselves have been moved to a

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applies on this article, so people should just start removing what they think is improperly sourced or certainly anything defamatory and we will discuss it here. If you re-add the content without consensus you may get a ban. Thanks!

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I double-checked; the Reditt-interview is not used as a reference anymore; apologies. But maybe you can give your take on this interview as a sort of self-published source, since this is Witzel himself on his own opinions? Regards,

2372:"The proposed edits come out of a very sectarian approach to history," said Witzel, the Harvard professor. "They view all of Hinduism through one narrow lens. ... It's people on the very fringe who want to dispute these points." 2724:

on its contents. I also believe it is not appropriate to sequentially combine the quotes here if it has not been written that way or produced elsewhere in a high-quality and secondary source independent of the subject (see

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I have replaced the "sectarian"-quote by another quote, backed by a better source, and replaced the source for Cinay Lal's letter, which has been widely referred to in newspapers, journals and books, with a better source.

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You restored four edits; I've numbered them for you. Be explicit, and explain per edit why they are "UNDUE, poorly sourced, and critical." mere statements do not suffice; that way you can remove anything you don't like.

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but retained other text also referenced to this source. I also don't see why the information should be removed. And again, this is not a criticism of Witzel. What is "UNDUE, poorly sourced, and critical" about this?

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Additionally, I don't feel good about putting quotes by the subject within a section dealing with a heated controversy, as it is currently. The material should be from an independent high-quality secondary source.

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because I don't believe that an interview transcript or a Pacific News Service article is reliable by any means for inclusion of an article like this. It's not sufficient based on my interpretation of the

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states that the burden of proof to retain, restore, or undelete the disputed material is on those who wish to bring back material that does not fit the guidelines outlined. This burden refers to

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To paraphrase you: 'the direct quotes currently illustrate Witzel's interpretations of the events through his own words as given by a secondary source, media outlets one step removed from it'.

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An online petition accusing Michael Witzel of being an "Aryan supremacist" has asked Harvard University's administration to "terminate" its association with Witzel and "disband" his department.

1576:. Be cautious of taking these actions, I have already warned you on your talk page and violating BLP policies could result in you getting banned from this article or the entire topic. Thanks! 3145: 993:

Look, I can appreciate some of what you're saying, but ultimately, this is just too lengthy. Please condense your explanation to address the removal of the sourced material only. Thank you.

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positions behind thinly veiled sophistic arguments while avoiding overtly racist terms. The Origins of World Mythologies is the latest addition to this dubious genre by a singular scholar."

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Viveswaran et al. (2009) has five authors, is published in a scholarly journal, and is cited 99 times. That makes it quite reliable, according to the definition of reliable sources.

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Viveswaran et al. (2009) has five authors, is published in a scholarly journal, and is cited 99 times. That makes it quite reliable, according to the definition of reliable sources.

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from the lead. This is not a criticism directed at Witzel, but a summary of Witzel's stance, as described in the article. What is "UNDUE, poorly sourced, and critical" about this?

266: 2237:- Thus, the content being included should come from a reliable source, which it clearly does not. I dont believe it was appropriate to revert edits without any discussion either. 3165: 2850:. I've already said, I have no problem with positive, negative, or neutral information - but the citations should be coming from high-quality reliable sources as mentioned in 2262:

thank you for your response. Let's split the topics, as I already did: the Reditt-interview, and the Pacific News Service article; in this thread, we treat the Reditt-source.

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Vishwa Adluri and Joydeep Bagchee, authors of The Nay Science (Oxford Univ Press, 2014) allege many of Witzel's publications are actually self-published and recycled works:

2992:'the direct quotes currently illustrate Witzel's interpretations of the events through his own words as given by a secondary source, media outlets one step removed from it' 2538: 1949: 1097: 966: 2384:. I'm quite sure that that's not your intention, but combined with an edit-warring warning after one revert it does not help to assume good faith, as you may understand. 205: 3200: 3155: 158: 3023:- I don't agree with many of your interpretations of the policies. That said, I do appreciate you finally laying out the discussion topics and addressing some of them. 860:

There has also been "friction" between him and other professors in the department, and graduate students have complained that Witzel has "behaved unprofessionally."

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Please only use the actual news source and stop using syndicated content. Also the ongoing editing when other editors are objecting is a sign problematic editing.

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And I have added explanatory info on the views of the opponents, explaining what kind of impression some texts gave them, and why they wanted them to be changed.

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If these are Witzel's own comments then it is acceptable, as the subject oc a BLP can be quoted on themselves. You also haven't explained yet how this undue or

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but retained other text also referenced to this source. I also don't see why the information should be removed. And again, this is not a criticism of Witzel.

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without significant change, consensus must be obtained first. Material that has been repaired to address concerns should be judged on a case-by-case basis.

254:) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or 552: 2299: 2123:

I am not involved. I am acting as an administrator since you seem to want to revert to the information you want to include without consensus into a BLP.

2857: 2851: 2814:. What you are doing now is questioning the reliability of Witzel himself, just like the HEF and the VF did. As I noticed before: you seem to intend to 2793: 2223: 377: 246: 3026:

It's very challenging to have a constructive conversation while you're making significant edits to the page. I will leave you with it! Happy editing.

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removed material that is not a high-quality reliable source (Pacific News Service), as per WP:BLP. The inclusion of material should comply with WP:CRIT

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removed material that is not a high-quality reliable source (Pacific News Service), as per WP:BLP. The inclusion of material should comply with WP:CRIT

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The article is written like a self-promotional document at an academic department. It needs to be pruned down and made readable for the general public.

3215: 770: 1047:, Journal of Folklore Research - so, that's one critical scholarly review of one book by Witzel. Does that make him a racist? And who's Tok Thompson? 659: 3180: 542: 96: 3170: 2462:

Witzel clearly is not a lonely voice in his critisms - but that should already be clear from the fact that his letter was signed by 50 scholars.

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for the reasons i mentioned above, and I don't believe there is a good enough justification for its inclusion in the manner it's being used.

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now that you're involved, maybe you can explain, or defend, why some info referenced to the Reditt-interview was removed with an appeal to

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To ensure that material about living people is written neutrally to a high standard, and based on high-quality reliable sources, the

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Witzel has frequently been accused of racism, based on both his published works and comments made in public. Tok Thompson notes:

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Witzel's opinions, of all things on the page dedicated to him. The subject's opinions are relevant on a page on the subject.

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from the lead. This is not a criticism directed at Witzel, but a summary of Witzel's stance, as described in the article.

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The direct quotes currently illustrate Witzel's interpretations of the events through his own words not a secondary source

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and also be aware that we are not going to cover every claim and counterclaim like some sort of academic journal.

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The Hindu groups termed Witzel a racist with leftist leanings and demanded that Harvard shut down his department.

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Burden of proof refers to verifiability; it's quite obvious that Witzel is "a critic of the arguments made by

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https://www.thecrimson.com/article/1996/6/5/former-sanskrit-chair-remains-controversial-pduring/?page=single

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on Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join

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about PNS? Do you think it is a good idea to use Witzel's own quotes to characterize the controversy?

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the header "Criticism of "Indigenous Aryans"" into "Discussion of "Indigenous Aryans"," edit-summary

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the header "Criticism of "Indigenous Aryans"" into "Discussion of "Indigenous Aryans"," edit-summary

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a single source ain’t sufficient for incorporating such a laden word, in light of our BLP policies.

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Even self-published sources by the article's subject are acceptable, so this one certainly is; see

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Even self-published sources by the article's subject are acceptable, so this one certainly is; see

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Even self-published sources by the article's subject are acceptable, so this one certainly is; see

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Education, Vinay Lal, a history professor at the University of California at Los Angeles, wrote:

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Education, Vinay Lal, a history professor at the University of California at Los Angeles, wrote:

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may I ask the lot of you to keep an eye on this page for the next few weeks, given this thread

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To remind you: Nicholson is the academic author who was ungratefully plagiarized by Malhotra.

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I have replaced the quote with another quote from Witzel hinself, backed by a better source.

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Review of The Nay Science: A History of German Indology by Vishwa Adluri and Joydeep Bagchee

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Knowledge (XXG):Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#Edit warring User:Joshua Jonathan

2908: 2200: 2128: 1384: 1371: 1264: 1063: 918: 501: 35: 3129: 3080: 1099:

Citizens to End Racism in Academia: Sign and Fwd. petition against Witzel, Harvard U.

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Citizens to End Racism in Academia: Sign and Fwd. petition against Witzel, Harvard U.

2195:. If it is important, then a secondary source will have picked it up, so use that. 2015: 1889: 1133: 606: 2573:

This so called pacific news is just syndicated content from a website called and

2072:(an essay, by the way), nor why you retained the source for other pieces of info. 2720:. Primary sources are generally the best source for its own content - do not put 1999:- "Sectarian, narrow, and historically wrong" - Rediff-interview": --> 1077:

Former Sanskrit Chair Remains Controversial Students Grumble in Spite of Changes

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This source also seems to be concerning as Witzel is one of the authors on it

2343:"Multiculturalism and "American" Religion: The Case of Hindu Indian Americans" 2032:, which is allowed. What is "UNDUE, poorly sourced, and critical" about this? 703: 596: 491: 485: 464: 354: 2278:

Witzel was accused of being biased against Hinduism, an allegation he denies.

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interview with Witzel is acceptable. Removing this quote to me looks like

733:-related subjects. Please participate by editing the article, and help us 430: 228: 1827: 1741:

I also disagree with the change as it is based on a clear misapplication

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don't see why it would be undue to call criticism criticism in a header.

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Additionally, the info from this source is also backed by other sources;

2106:, while other info referenced to the same source was retained? Regards, 1721:

don't see why it would be undue to call criticism criticism in a header.

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N.S. Rajaram is a fringe academic fraud, masquerading as a scholar.

622:-related topics. If you would like to participate, please visit the 1716:, we dont need to give unnecessary weight to this in section title. 1490:, we dont need to give unnecessary weight to this in section title. 1084:, an undergraduate student's newspaper. Any other source available? 853:

Witzel has also been a controversial figure at Harvard University:

384:. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the 2683:

And it appears that Pacific News Service is quite a ceptable; see

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Knowledge (XXG) requested photographs of scientists and academics

2856:

I don't agree with your interpretation of the policies listed at

1995:- "Sectarian, narrow, and historically wrong" - Rediff-interview 1019:, Tok Thompson and others needs to be made a part of the story. 2050:

The content is sourced to rediff, which is laughable. Thanks!

1227:

which means we are not going to use self published stuff to do

2737:

not only seems suspicious, but also seems like a safety risk.

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from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially

238: 230: 26: 2640:, why is this info "pushing views beyond the requirements of 2578: 2409:, why is this info "pushing views beyond the requirements of 2179:

caution. There are massive, massive potential problems with

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Unknown-importance biography (science and academia) articles

2353:

The first source, sacbee.com, doesn't look very reliable to

2018:) and a statement attributed to Witzel with this reference, 1892:) and a statement attributed to Witzel with this reference, 429: 409: 2175:

person. However, as a primary source it must be used with

1420:'this professor said this and that professor said that' is 1723:

What is "UNDUE, poorly sourced, and critical" about this?

2574: 1235:. Are any of these allegations of racism actually decent 2300:"Education — Hindu history ignites brawl over textbooks" 3090: 2912: 2789: 2726: 2717: 2684: 2645: 2499: 2414: 2238: 2230: 2011: 1910: 1885: 1799: 1705: 1499: 1479: 2487:

Dismissal of HEF-campaing - Pacific News Service": -->

618:, which aims to improve Knowledge (XXG)'s coverage of 171: 727:, a project to improve Knowledge (XXG)'s articles on 513:, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of 1150:Since, we are going by self-published papers, read 1090:

Sanskrit Dept. in Disarray, Students, Officials Say

953:

Sanskrit Dept. in Disarray, Students, Officials Say

185: 3146:C-Class biography (science and academia) articles 2451:Regarding "sectarian," see also Bose (2008) p.16: 1231:nor on the other hand are we going to use it for 1102:, janamejayaneconomics.wordpress.com - seriously? 2979:the subject of a BLP can be quoted on themselves 2796:. I dont think it is appropriate for inclusion. 2483:Dismissal of HEF-campaing - Pacific News Service 1693:Criticism of "Indigenous Aryans"": --> 44:for general discussion of the article's subject. 3166:Knowledge (XXG) requested photographs of people 1814:. do not re-add without consensus on talk, see 1759:is not a blank cheque for merrily disregarding 1554:writers and sectarian historical revisionism." 1514:. do not re-add without consensus on talk, see 2532: 2530: 1572:You are incorrect, you are required to follow 1366:Wait, the long passage quoted above is not in 1136:gives significant impressions, in the regard. 2512: 2504: 2454: 2370: 2360: 2276: 2020: 1943: 1941: 1923: 1915: 1894: 1830:writers and sectarian historical revisionism, 1824: 1804: 1710: 1539: 1530:writers and sectarian historical revisionism, 1524: 1504: 1484: 1341: 1333: 1307: 1261: 857:Students have accused him of being a "tyrant" 847: 839: 831: 823: 814: 806: 8: 2821:But you know what? I get your point, due to 1745:, which is about "negative criticism of the 1370:. Where did it appear, if at all it did? -- 1096:Janamejayan, Dr. Subramanian Swamy, (2011), 965:Janamejayan, Dr. Subramanian Swamy, (2011), 829:Adluri and Bagchee cite Lincoln's opinion: 2607:with regard to point 4; please explain how 1787:"A critic of the arguments"": --> 936:Former Sanskrit Chair Remains Controversial 2380:honest, it does support the impression of 671: 564: 459: 312: 2937:Your queries have already been answered: 2599:The same quote from Vinay Lal appears at 1872:Reddif-interview and Pacific News Service 1633:by re-adding and I have opened a case at 893: 891: 3201:C-Class India articles of Mid-importance 3156:Science and academia work group articles 931:"no writer attributed" june 5, 1996), ([ 2526: 2290: 1937: 1074:"no writer attributed" june 5, 1996), ( 913: 911: 909: 875: 673: 566: 461: 314: 284: 2991: 2983: 2978: 2956: 2947: 2822: 2716:, which clearly does not aligned with 2541:. Pacific News Service. Archived from 1952:. Pacific News Service. Archived from 1219:Are any of these sources high quality 1389:, a self-published paper (oh irony). 1254: 394:Knowledge (XXG):WikiProject Biography 7: 2577:. This india today is "developed by 971:, janamejayaneconomics.wordpress.com 938:Students Grumble in Spite of Changes 755:Knowledge (XXG):WikiProject Religion 719:This article is within the scope of 612:This article is within the scope of 507:This article is within the scope of 370:This article is within the scope of 3136:Biography articles of living people 2345:, Social Forces, Volume 85; Issue 2 2273:Furthermore, the Wiki-article says: 1712:Criticism of "Indigenous Aryans": 1486:Criticism of "Indigenous Aryans": 1062:Vishwa Adluri and Joydeep Bagchee, 917:Vishwa Adluri and Joydeep Bagchee, 527:Knowledge (XXG):WikiProject Germany 421:the science and academia work group 303:It is of interest to the following 34:for discussing improvements to the 3089:, and especially my lates comment 2823:that is not at all what I'm saying 2537:Swapan, Ashfaque (March 3, 2006). 1948:Swapan, Ashfaque (March 3, 2006). 1826:A critic of the arguments made by 1526:A critic of the arguments made by 1139:Thompson is reliable and accurate 1087:Jonathan A. Lewin (june 7, 1996), 950:Jonathan A. Lewin (june 7, 1996), 25: 634:Knowledge (XXG):WikiProject India 61:New to Knowledge (XXG)? Welcome! 3216:Low-importance Religion articles 1689:Criticism of "Indigenous Aryans" 1424:on this article. Be advise that 706: 696: 675: 599: 589: 568: 494: 484: 463: 438:An editor has requested that an 357: 347: 333: 316: 285: 244:This article must adhere to the 212: 56:Click here to start a new topic. 3181:Low-importance Germany articles 1319:. The suggestion that Witzel's 1053:Recycled racism in a new bottle 1015:Also, the serious criticism by 900:Recycled racism in a new bottle 775:This article has been rated as 654:This article has been rated as 547:This article has been rated as 3171:WikiProject Biography articles 1255:Witzel's mostly self-published 885:, Journal of Folklore Research 397:Template:WikiProject Biography 1: 3221:WikiProject Religion articles 3196:Mid-importance India articles 3121:07:57, 1 September 2024 (UTC) 3106:04:42, 1 September 2024 (UTC) 3056:18:29, 6 September 2024 (UTC) 3036:14:23, 6 September 2024 (UTC) 3015:06:30, 3 September 2024 (UTC) 2925:01:05, 3 September 2024 (UTC) 2898:20:17, 2 September 2024 (UTC) 2870:18:23, 2 September 2024 (UTC) 2838:08:06, 2 September 2024 (UTC) 2806:07:48, 2 September 2024 (UTC) 2772:03:04, 2 September 2024 (UTC) 2747:22:09, 1 September 2024 (UTC) 2700:07:26, 1 September 2024 (UTC) 2679:06:14, 1 September 2024 (UTC) 2661:04:56, 1 September 2024 (UTC) 2475:07:55, 1 September 2024 (UTC) 2447:06:13, 1 September 2024 (UTC) 2430:04:55, 1 September 2024 (UTC) 1856:is incorrectly evoked here. – 758:Template:WikiProject Religion 521:and see a list of open tasks. 418:This article is supported by 247:biographies of living persons 53:Put new text under old text. 3186:WikiProject Germany articles 1977:06:49, 30 August 2024 (UTC) 530:Template:WikiProject Germany 382:contribute to the discussion 2628:11:59, 30 August 2024 (UTC) 2591:11:50, 30 August 2024 (UTC) 2568:10:52, 30 August 2024 (UTC) 2397:16:31, 30 August 2024 (UTC) 2250:14:53, 30 August 2024 (UTC) 2205:14:53, 30 August 2024 (UTC) 2170:13:53, 30 August 2024 (UTC) 2133:13:43, 30 August 2024 (UTC) 2119:13:39, 30 August 2024 (UTC) 2085:12:04, 30 August 2024 (UTC) 2060:11:50, 30 August 2024 (UTC) 2045:10:52, 30 August 2024 (UTC) 1990:06:49, 30 August 2024 (UTC) 1866:08:22, 31 August 2024 (UTC) 1847:10:49, 30 August 2024 (UTC) 1783:"A critic of the arguments" 1777:08:19, 31 August 2024 (UTC) 1736:10:49, 30 August 2024 (UTC) 1677:10:44, 30 August 2024 (UTC) 1647:09:25, 30 August 2024 (UTC) 1616:07:52, 30 August 2024 (UTC) 1586:07:20, 30 August 2024 (UTC) 1567:06:32, 30 August 2024 (UTC) 1458:08:48, 31 August 2024 (UTC) 1439:07:25, 29 August 2024 (UTC) 1249:07:20, 29 August 2024 (UTC) 259:must be removed immediately 3237: 3206:WikiProject India articles 3141:C-Class biography articles 2940:Visvesvaran et al. (2009): 2579:https://codeblendlabs.com/ 781:project's importance scale 660:project's importance scale 637:Template:WikiProject India 553:project's importance scale 3211:C-Class Religion articles 774: 691: 653: 584: 546: 479: 437: 417: 342: 311: 91:Be welcoming to newcomers 18:Talk:Michael E. J. Witzel 3176:C-Class Germany articles 1402:06:45, 3 June 2019 (UTC) 1380:21:14, 2 June 2019 (UTC) 1362:15:27, 2 June 2019 (UTC) 1300:15:05, 2 June 2019 (UTC) 1282:14:55, 2 June 2019 (UTC) 1211:07:38, 3 June 2019 (UTC) 1193:06:44, 3 June 2019 (UTC) 1168:19:51, 2 June 2019 (UTC) 1123:18:02, 22 May 2019 (UTC) 1029:16:29, 22 May 2019 (UTC) 998:03:49, 22 May 2019 (UTC) 988:02:48, 22 May 2019 (UTC) 745:standards, or visit the 1637:for the edits. Thanks! 1448:absolutely dismaying. – 1223:? First have to follow 1176:Winged Blades of Godric 1093:, thecrimson.com - idem 3191:C-Class India articles 2644:", as you stated here 2519: 2508: 2459: 2413:", as you stated here 2376: 2364: 2280: 2025: 1930: 1919: 1899: 1832: 1820: 1806:remove this word from 1718: 1548: 1532: 1520: 1506:remove this word from 1492: 1346: 1338: 1312: 1287:Best example of what? 1271: 1068:- self-published; not 851: 843: 835: 827: 819: 810: 434: 414: 293:This article is rated 86:avoid personal attacks 2968:PNS has been removed; 1146:Adluree and Bagchi - 1134:His article over here 1050:N.S. Rajaram (2014), 1044:Tok Thompson (2013), 897:N.S. Rajaram (2014), 882:Tok Thompson (2013), 800:Accusations of racism 433: 413: 373:WikiProject Biography 297:on Knowledge (XXG)'s 206:Auto-archiving period 111:Neutral point of view 2298:Ranganathan, Deepa. 2181:cherrypicking quotes 2016:rediff.com interview 1906:, which is allowed. 1890:rediff.com interview 1751:completely different 1197:Sorry, weird stuff. 723:WikiProject Religion 329:Science and Academia 116:No original research 2357:. It actually says: 2322:"Battling the Past" 2183:that would violate 1537:WP:BLPRESTORE says 1498:Same for this edit 1412:Please be aware of 1082:The Harvard Crimson 1080:, thecrimson.com - 1056:, the pioneer: not 510:WikiProject Germany 2848:casting aspersions 2782:That's a good one! 1386:Theses on Indology 1324:Andrew Nicholson, 1266:Theses on Indology 1065:Theses on Indology 920:Theses on Indology 735:assess and improve 435: 415: 400:biography articles 299:content assessment 97:dispute resolution 58: 2545:on April 4, 2006. 2324:. Metroactive.com 2310:on June 25, 2008. 1956:on April 4, 2006. 1274:LogicalistAnalyst 1110:and POV-pushing. 980:LogicalistAnalyst 940:], thecrimson.com 795: 794: 791: 790: 787: 786: 761:Religion articles 749:for more details. 670: 669: 666: 665: 615:WikiProject India 563: 562: 559: 558: 458: 457: 454: 453: 279: 278: 237: 236: 77:Assume good faith 54: 16:(Redirected from 3228: 3115: 3103: 3097: 3084: 3012: 3006: 2895: 2889: 2835: 2829: 2769: 2763: 2697: 2691: 2676: 2670: 2658: 2652: 2625: 2619: 2575:india west today 2565: 2559: 2547: 2546: 2534: 2502:, edit-summary 2495: 2494: 2490: 2472: 2466: 2444: 2438: 2427: 2421: 2394: 2388: 2346: 2340: 2334: 2333: 2331: 2329: 2318: 2312: 2311: 2306:. 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