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editors have objected to your executive removal of sourced, noteworthy material on spurious grounds without recourse to the talk page - why is it such a surprise they would do so independently? This issue has previously been resolved on BLPN in favour of inclusion, your arguments have no reference to WP (other than a selective and spurious use of the "human dignity" clause and a reference to "scatalogical material" which is both incorrect and as far as I can see is mentioned nowhere in WP), and the editors in favour of your position admit that they have not read the material in question, seem unable to comprehend it, and seem to take your scurrilous suggestions at face value for reasons unknown ("that's nassstiiiee" is not an argument). I could just as easily accuse you of sock-puppeting on the basis that someone is agreeing with you, only it would be asburd, rude, and not in the spirit of WP. Consensus is not a vote, as you well know. I'll be taking this up on the BLPN in detail. I am warning you politely not to make that insinuation again - it is insulting and baseless. You seem to keep accusing me of operating in bad faith, when I have repeatedly and politely asked you to involve yourself in the discussion surrounding this page, and you have only done so to make baseless accusations against me.
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it refers neither to faeces nor obscenity. Weight is a non-issue - this is a stub, and as such will be added to by other users. As it is factual information, confirmed by a New York Times spokesperson, it is not defamatory, and does not contravene
Knowledge (XXG)'s BLP guidelines. The reliability of the eXile as a source may be called into question (although in this case the link includes photographs of a person who is clearly Wines with pie on his face), so I have sourced another reference, from Media Life Magazine, to whom the aforementioned Times spokesperson confirmed the incident (although the contents of the pie are unknown to them, hence the "alleged" nature of the semen). For these reasons, I have reverted to a version where the pie incident is included. Any further discussion or attempts to remove this edit should be reported to the BLP board, where the Wines's relationship with Columbia University willl be discussed. "you name it, there's a problem" is not recognised Knowledge (XXG) terminology.
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and unusual both as an example of gonzo journalism and as a rare case of vigilante pushback against the political agenda of a news organization. I agree with the statement on the BLP noticeboard that a thorough sourcing is in order, though this can certainly be found in the exile's history page. I believe there was at least one non-exile source that did confirm directly with NYT that a pie attack happened. There are lots of details in the vanity fair writeup too.
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I haven't been on wikipedia in ages but there has always been stuff on blps that has driven me nuts - this damn thing about the 'horse semen pie' is one of them. it is really disgusting, degrading, probably not even true, and the only evidence of its notability is stuff from taibbi. So whoever keeps
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is not quite an ordinary tabloid--see our article on it, which quotes CNN documentary saying, "Brazen, irreverent, immodest, and rude, the eXile struggles with the harsh truth of the new century in Russia...Since 1997, Ames and Taibbi have lampooned and investigated greed, corruption, cowardice and
696:, along with extensive sources. There is no conflict with WP policy (such as BLP), as established by numerous discussion there and at the WP:BLP noticeboard. Ideally, we would contact Taibbi and get him to release copyright on the pictures of Wines and Pobornik, so we can include them there or here.
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I am strongly in favor of inclusion, and I disagree with the claim that it's only the yuck factor that makes it notable. I think it's very notable without mentioning what was in the pie (which I would be fine with for this page, though the details should be included on the exile page). It's notable
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WP policy could not possibly be more clear about it; secondary sources find it notable so we include it. The idea that we should leave it out because some editors find it distasteful is absurd. Every time it's been discussed in depth the consensus here or on BLP discussion pages is that it is to be
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They presumably had some reason for picking on him in particular. It seems possible they picked him as being a reporter for a particularly staid & conventional publication that was giving positive coverage to politicians they disliked. I would include it here if, and ONLY if, the matter is in
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This material appears elsewhere in
Knowledge (XXG), and I have added it to the page, only to have it removed on the grounds of "→Personal: removed scatological material - wieght, reliable sources, BLP, NPOV - you name it, there's a problem" by user Idlewild101. The material is not scatological, as
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not what amounts to an assertion of ownership of the article by stating "if
Knowledge (XXG) is going to report on the prank at all, it will be on *that* page, not here." This is a notable incident involving this person, and it is neutrally worded in the article, and is sourced to reliable sources.
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Thanks, I'll try to have a look soon. I don't think that whether Wines himself did it, or whether someone did it to him is relevant for inclusion here--surely you would put the assassination attempt on Reagan's page, right? Or is there some relevant policy page I'm missing? I don't think Wines is
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Honestly, it is good enough to know that Wines had a horse sperm pie thrown into his face. In retrospect, his support for Putin (which was common among
American 'experts' at the time) is to blame, at least in part, for the current mess that we're all in. It's good enough to know that when people
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Was there ever a consensus reached about this? FYI the reason why they targeted Wines is because they held a "Final Four" bracket contest of the worst journalist in Russia and allowed to people to vote; Wines was the clear winner in their poll. It's not something HE did, but it's something that
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I'm more or less fine with leaving it out of Wines' article, which is basically a stub anyway. The eXile guys did cite a
Fairness and Accuracy in Report peice criticizing Wines, which should be cited. Vanity Fair is a reliable source on why they did it, I'm not sure if there were other in depth
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Your repeated insinuations I am sock-puppeting, on the basis of no evidence whatsoever, are a disgrace. You have already been blocked from editing this entry, and I will report you for disruptive editing if you make such a claim again. I edit
Knowledge (XXG) under my own name for a reason. Two
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we were to include it there, it might for example say "An
American Moscow journalist for a mainstream US paper" . The conclusion of the earlier BLP discussion was to not include it even there, and there would need to be good reason to change it, such as continuing coverage from good
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complacency.", The Moscow Times saying "The eXile, which publishes Gonzo-style journalism on topics such as drugs, prostitution and Moscow nightlife side-by-side with political analysis, has often pushed the limits of decency..." and
Newsweek calling it "brilliant and outrageous."
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but in the end it was abundantly clear that WP policy supports its inclusion. It is definitely notable (according to secondary media sources), verifiable, and certainly not a BLP violaiton. If you want to insert it here, I would recommend using all 5 sources referenced at
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What is a real concensus supposed to be in this case? What part of the BLP policy precludes including at least some summary of what secondary sources have said? Also, I don't think it's appropriate to phrase your opinion as an order given to another editor in this case.
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to be a response to his journalistic work. the notability relates to Taibbi since the incident conveys more information about Taibbi than it does about wines. i don't see how it can be compared to the attempted assassination of an american president.
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sources. However, I don't agree that Wines' name should be left out -- he's a public figure and the fact that the NYT Beaureau chief was targeted is key to the story. I'm not aware of anything in BLP policy that says we should censor ourselves here.
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After having a look at this, the only information that is sourced in the article is relating to this eXile incident, and what is left does not give him any degree of notability. A more suitable course of action would likely be to take the article to
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some way politically or culturally of great significance and there are other multiple sources --and very good sources--that describe not just the act but the motivation I rather doubt it. The burden would be on anyone asserting it.
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Now, maybe there is no need to have this in this article, but this is done by discussion and gathering consensus, not by continuing to remove information without discussion. We need to have reason to remove information, and
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continue without any attempt to resolve the dispute on this talk page, people are going to get blocked. Meanwhile, I note that the statement has 4 references. Why? If any one of them is any good, one of them will do
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I would have liked to comment there but I only check WP once a week, tops. The turnover on that page is insane. I would appreciate some advance warning here (1-2 weeks) if someone is going to open it for discussion
1085:(outdent) Thanks for the link, but that doesn't look anything like a consensus for inclusion and we all now that consensus can change either way, especially when more editors are involved, which I always favor. --
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and writing it in as neutral a manner as possible. The most acceptable way might not be to state facts directly, but rather to write sentences of the form e.g. "publication X reported, that Y and Z occured...."
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think of
Michael Wines, they think about the fact that he had a horse sperm pie thrown into his face. It doesn't need to appear in the article, in spite of anyone's perfectly justifiable loathing for Wines.
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I can't for the life of me see why this entry should exist. Based on the content, Wines's career has been unremarkable. As it presently reads, Wines is "based" in China but has no apparent employer.
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Reincluded on clear basis of WP:N (Taibbi, Wines and Ames all national award winning journalists, material is included in pages on Taibbi and the eXile), now with single Vanity Fair reference.
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How about some kind of mention of his infamous run-in with Matt Taibbi, where Taibbi actually flung a cream-pie filled with horse semen in his face while Wines was still Moscow bureau chief?
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Those boards have pretty high turnover, could you provide a link to the previous discussion? Would have been nice to include a link to that on the discussion page here too. Thanks
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There were 5 references numbered 2-6. I've removed all except #4 the media life one. #2 and #5 are clearly not reliable sources, #3 is a broken link, #6 does not mention Wines.
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sorry, you should have weighed in on this at the BLP discussion page. the consensus was to turf the information. go start another blp discussion if you dispute that consensus.
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so the discussion here might also be superfluous. The consensus there is clear. Users:DGG, Tom, Digwuran, and myself are completely against including this material here.
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Accounts of their more notorious stunts is best done in the article on them, where we may or may not want to include the name of the victim, depending on circumstances.
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is active on the article, but for removal to take place under that policy, a clear reason needs to be given which is inline with that policy. Not because of
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Seconded. If this writer is noteworthy enough to have an article, then surely the defining moment of his career could be mentioned, too. Any objections?
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59:) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or
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does not even mention it. Why? Because it is a childish prank of no consequence; it says nothing about who Mr. Gates is or what is his place in history.
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I would probably say that "real consensus" is probably a few, ie 3-5, univolved parties that say this material belongs. Have we seen that yet? --
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Here
Biophys is against inclusion, RussAvia mimicks Cooke, and there's a new editor without a previous edit history mimicking Cooke as well.
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included, but apparently some editors are waiting till discussion dies down and removing it again. This is a clear violation of WP policy.
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If a real consensus forms for inclusion, then fine, otherwise leave it out for the numerous reasons given above and on the BLP board. --
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When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
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does no one wish to state why this should or should not remain? frankly I'm quite ambivalent; it's revolting, and yet noteworthy.
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on Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the ongoing discussions.
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putting it in, either stop or come explain why it is absolutely notable and not violative of a bunch of blp policies. thanks.
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It is from PBS, a government entity, so is it in the public domain? Those who know a bit more I would appreciate your input.
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Will Beback says a one sentence non-scatological summary might be included if Wines acheivements/awards are also included.
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Thanks for you advice Dsol, I've used some of the referenced material from the page on the exile to ensure a NPOV. Cheers.
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all that is totally fine - as a subject for the page of the guy who supposedly did it. It's not suitable for this page.
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I was asked to comment by Smallbones. I do not see where I have discussed this before, but but my current view is that
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to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
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https://web.archive.org/web/20091015031851/http://nytimes.com/learning/students/ask_reporters/Michael_Wines.html
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Actually I'll remove the whole section in a second but that is a different matter, based on the discussion at
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merely incidental to this story either, since the pie attack was a direct response to his journalistic work.
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on Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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on Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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Dsol and Cooke want it included - but don't actually say why - only arguing that it can be included.
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is my own lame contribution - and judging by the dates etc. you can navigate back and forth there.
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I have raised the issue of the recent restoration of an attack on the subject of this article at
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before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template
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frankly it is not a notable thing that Michael Wines did. It's a notable thing that Taibbi did.
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Digwuren has removed the information, without discussion. I have reverted his removal, pending
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I tend to agree with you....there was a quite some contention about including this material at
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article. Isn't there an admin somewhere who can show this guy a few key policies, especially
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instead, because he doesn't seem all that notable without the eXile prose. Thoughts? --
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If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with
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http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons/Noticeboard/Archive25
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http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/foreign_correspondence/july-dec01/terrorism_9-18.html
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878:"...had a pie allegedly made from equine semen flung into his face by Matt Taibbi."
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You just inserted the following segment: The person described in this BLP article
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And horse semen or no horse semen, lofasz or no lofasz, that is the case with the
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please let me know if i can make a coffee for you as well (ok joking...) hehe,
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5 vs. 2 looks like a consensus to me, as far as it can be done in this matter.
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If this article survives the deletion process would this photo be allowalbe?
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It's alright that it is *there*. The incident says a lot more about
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personally i find the episode absolutely unbelievably revolting.
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All this is based on BLP, NPOV, notability, and weight issues
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from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially
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Where did you get the idea that PBS is a government entity?
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Please note the POV-pusher is also removing information the
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for additional information. I made the following changes:
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36:no consensus
35:
1254:Lousy entry
1000:Idlewild101
979:This is at
962:Idlewild101
853:reasons. --
658:—Preceding
1771:Categories
1725:Report bug
1225:TWilliams9
1195:Wikimandia
1066:TWilliams9
838:discussion
731:Bill Gates
664:71.226.7.9
485:Louisville
391:U.S. state
293:Journalism
284:journalism
243:Journalism
100:Stub-class
1708:this tool
1701:this tool
1128:The eXile
926:Edit wars
843:WP:CENSOR
825:WP:CENSOR
821:The eXile
784:the eXile
779:the eXile
742:The eXile
716:The eXile
694:the eXile
189:Biography
129:Biography
68:libellous
1752:monsoon
1714:Cheers.—
1558:Johnuniq
1139:sources.
1111:contribs
1099:unsigned
908:unsigned
869:Russavia
855:Russavia
829:Russavia
746:Διγουρεν
660:unsigned
395:New York
28:deletion
1638:my edit
1602:monsoon
1554:WP:BLPN
1548:WP:BLPN
1515:monsoon
1498:it was
1464:monsoon
1412:monsoon
1366:monsoon
1334:monsoon
1287:monsoon
1260:Nicmart
981:WP:BLPN
958:WP:BLPN
882:Biophys
750:Εμπρος!
593:on the
431:on the
1572:again.
865:WP:AFD
847:WP:BLP
559:Alerts
106:scale.
1745:Happy
1595:Happy
1508:Happy
1457:Happy
1405:Happy
1359:Happy
1327:Happy
1280:Happy
1215:Photo
1151:talk
1582:talk
1578:dsol
1562:talk
1500:said
1490:talk
1486:dsol
1447:here
1437:talk
1433:dsol
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966:talk
940:talk
916:talk
886:talk
827:. --
808:talk
793:talk
789:dsol
768:talk
702:talk
698:Dsol
683:talk
668:talk
178:and
34:was
1756:day
1682:RfC
1652:to
1610:day
1523:day
1472:day
1420:day
1374:day
1342:day
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1240:DHN
1146:DGG
1087:Tom
1054:Tom
1030:Tom
585:Low
423:Low
393:of
312:???
57:BLP
1773::
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1690:}}
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