Knowledge (XXG)

Talk:Michael Wines

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editors have objected to your executive removal of sourced, noteworthy material on spurious grounds without recourse to the talk page - why is it such a surprise they would do so independently? This issue has previously been resolved on BLPN in favour of inclusion, your arguments have no reference to WP (other than a selective and spurious use of the "human dignity" clause and a reference to "scatalogical material" which is both incorrect and as far as I can see is mentioned nowhere in WP), and the editors in favour of your position admit that they have not read the material in question, seem unable to comprehend it, and seem to take your scurrilous suggestions at face value for reasons unknown ("that's nassstiiiee" is not an argument). I could just as easily accuse you of sock-puppeting on the basis that someone is agreeing with you, only it would be asburd, rude, and not in the spirit of WP. Consensus is not a vote, as you well know. I'll be taking this up on the BLPN in detail. I am warning you politely not to make that insinuation again - it is insulting and baseless. You seem to keep accusing me of operating in bad faith, when I have repeatedly and politely asked you to involve yourself in the discussion surrounding this page, and you have only done so to make baseless accusations against me.
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it refers neither to faeces nor obscenity. Weight is a non-issue - this is a stub, and as such will be added to by other users. As it is factual information, confirmed by a New York Times spokesperson, it is not defamatory, and does not contravene Knowledge (XXG)'s BLP guidelines. The reliability of the eXile as a source may be called into question (although in this case the link includes photographs of a person who is clearly Wines with pie on his face), so I have sourced another reference, from Media Life Magazine, to whom the aforementioned Times spokesperson confirmed the incident (although the contents of the pie are unknown to them, hence the "alleged" nature of the semen). For these reasons, I have reverted to a version where the pie incident is included. Any further discussion or attempts to remove this edit should be reported to the BLP board, where the Wines's relationship with Columbia University willl be discussed. "you name it, there's a problem" is not recognised Knowledge (XXG) terminology.
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and unusual both as an example of gonzo journalism and as a rare case of vigilante pushback against the political agenda of a news organization. I agree with the statement on the BLP noticeboard that a thorough sourcing is in order, though this can certainly be found in the exile's history page. I believe there was at least one non-exile source that did confirm directly with NYT that a pie attack happened. There are lots of details in the vanity fair writeup too.
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I haven't been on wikipedia in ages but there has always been stuff on blps that has driven me nuts - this damn thing about the 'horse semen pie' is one of them. it is really disgusting, degrading, probably not even true, and the only evidence of its notability is stuff from taibbi. So whoever keeps
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is not quite an ordinary tabloid--see our article on it, which quotes CNN documentary saying, "Brazen, irreverent, immodest, and rude, the eXile struggles with the harsh truth of the new century in Russia...Since 1997, Ames and Taibbi have lampooned and investigated greed, corruption, cowardice and
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I am strongly in favor of inclusion, and I disagree with the claim that it's only the yuck factor that makes it notable. I think it's very notable without mentioning what was in the pie (which I would be fine with for this page, though the details should be included on the exile page). It's notable
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WP policy could not possibly be more clear about it; secondary sources find it notable so we include it. The idea that we should leave it out because some editors find it distasteful is absurd. Every time it's been discussed in depth the consensus here or on BLP discussion pages is that it is to be
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They presumably had some reason for picking on him in particular. It seems possible they picked him as being a reporter for a particularly staid & conventional publication that was giving positive coverage to politicians they disliked. I would include it here if, and ONLY if, the matter is in
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This material appears elsewhere in Knowledge (XXG), and I have added it to the page, only to have it removed on the grounds of "→Personal: removed scatological material - wieght, reliable sources, BLP, NPOV - you name it, there's a problem" by user Idlewild101. The material is not scatological, as
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not what amounts to an assertion of ownership of the article by stating "if Knowledge (XXG) is going to report on the prank at all, it will be on *that* page, not here." This is a notable incident involving this person, and it is neutrally worded in the article, and is sourced to reliable sources.
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Thanks, I'll try to have a look soon. I don't think that whether Wines himself did it, or whether someone did it to him is relevant for inclusion here--surely you would put the assassination attempt on Reagan's page, right? Or is there some relevant policy page I'm missing? I don't think Wines is
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Honestly, it is good enough to know that Wines had a horse sperm pie thrown into his face. In retrospect, his support for Putin (which was common among American 'experts' at the time) is to blame, at least in part, for the current mess that we're all in. It's good enough to know that when people
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Was there ever a consensus reached about this? FYI the reason why they targeted Wines is because they held a "Final Four" bracket contest of the worst journalist in Russia and allowed to people to vote; Wines was the clear winner in their poll. It's not something HE did, but it's something that
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I'm more or less fine with leaving it out of Wines' article, which is basically a stub anyway. The eXile guys did cite a Fairness and Accuracy in Report peice criticizing Wines, which should be cited. Vanity Fair is a reliable source on why they did it, I'm not sure if there were other in depth
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Your repeated insinuations I am sock-puppeting, on the basis of no evidence whatsoever, are a disgrace. You have already been blocked from editing this entry, and I will report you for disruptive editing if you make such a claim again. I edit Knowledge (XXG) under my own name for a reason. Two
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we were to include it there, it might for example say "An American Moscow journalist for a mainstream US paper" . The conclusion of the earlier BLP discussion was to not include it even there, and there would need to be good reason to change it, such as continuing coverage from good
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complacency.", The Moscow Times saying "The eXile, which publishes Gonzo-style journalism on topics such as drugs, prostitution and Moscow nightlife side-by-side with political analysis, has often pushed the limits of decency..." and Newsweek calling it "brilliant and outrageous."
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but in the end it was abundantly clear that WP policy supports its inclusion. It is definitely notable (according to secondary media sources), verifiable, and certainly not a BLP violaiton. If you want to insert it here, I would recommend using all 5 sources referenced at
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What is a real concensus supposed to be in this case? What part of the BLP policy precludes including at least some summary of what secondary sources have said? Also, I don't think it's appropriate to phrase your opinion as an order given to another editor in this case.
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to be a response to his journalistic work. the notability relates to Taibbi since the incident conveys more information about Taibbi than it does about wines. i don't see how it can be compared to the attempted assassination of an american president.
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sources. However, I don't agree that Wines' name should be left out -- he's a public figure and the fact that the NYT Beaureau chief was targeted is key to the story. I'm not aware of anything in BLP policy that says we should censor ourselves here.
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After having a look at this, the only information that is sourced in the article is relating to this eXile incident, and what is left does not give him any degree of notability. A more suitable course of action would likely be to take the article to
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some way politically or culturally of great significance and there are other multiple sources --and very good sources--that describe not just the act but the motivation I rather doubt it. The burden would be on anyone asserting it.
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Now, maybe there is no need to have this in this article, but this is done by discussion and gathering consensus, not by continuing to remove information without discussion. We need to have reason to remove information, and
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continue without any attempt to resolve the dispute on this talk page, people are going to get blocked. Meanwhile, I note that the statement has 4 references. Why? If any one of them is any good, one of them will do
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I would have liked to comment there but I only check WP once a week, tops. The turnover on that page is insane. I would appreciate some advance warning here (1-2 weeks) if someone is going to open it for discussion
1085:(outdent) Thanks for the link, but that doesn't look anything like a consensus for inclusion and we all now that consensus can change either way, especially when more editors are involved, which I always favor. -- 786:
and writing it in as neutral a manner as possible. The most acceptable way might not be to state facts directly, but rather to write sentences of the form e.g. "publication X reported, that Y and Z occured...."
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think of Michael Wines, they think about the fact that he had a horse sperm pie thrown into his face. It doesn't need to appear in the article, in spite of anyone's perfectly justifiable loathing for Wines.
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I can't for the life of me see why this entry should exist. Based on the content, Wines's career has been unremarkable. As it presently reads, Wines is "based" in China but has no apparent employer.
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Reincluded on clear basis of WP:N (Taibbi, Wines and Ames all national award winning journalists, material is included in pages on Taibbi and the eXile), now with single Vanity Fair reference.
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How about some kind of mention of his infamous run-in with Matt Taibbi, where Taibbi actually flung a cream-pie filled with horse semen in his face while Wines was still Moscow bureau chief?
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Those boards have pretty high turnover, could you provide a link to the previous discussion? Would have been nice to include a link to that on the discussion page here too. Thanks
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There were 5 references numbered 2-6. I've removed all except #4 the media life one. #2 and #5 are clearly not reliable sources, #3 is a broken link, #6 does not mention Wines.
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sorry, you should have weighed in on this at the BLP discussion page. the consensus was to turf the information. go start another blp discussion if you dispute that consensus.
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so the discussion here might also be superfluous. The consensus there is clear. Users:DGG, Tom, Digwuran, and myself are completely against including this material here.
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Accounts of their more notorious stunts is best done in the article on them, where we may or may not want to include the name of the victim, depending on circumstances.
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is active on the article, but for removal to take place under that policy, a clear reason needs to be given which is inline with that policy. Not because of
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Seconded. If this writer is noteworthy enough to have an article, then surely the defining moment of his career could be mentioned, too. Any objections?
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does not even mention it. Why? Because it is a childish prank of no consequence; it says nothing about who Mr. Gates is or what is his place in history.
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I would probably say that "real consensus" is probably a few, ie 3-5, univolved parties that say this material belongs. Have we seen that yet? --
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Here Biophys is against inclusion, RussAvia mimicks Cooke, and there's a new editor without a previous edit history mimicking Cooke as well.
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included, but apparently some editors are waiting till discussion dies down and removing it again. This is a clear violation of WP policy.
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If a real consensus forms for inclusion, then fine, otherwise leave it out for the numerous reasons given above and on the BLP board. --
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When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
744:. It pulled a stupid prank -- and if Knowledge (XXG) is going to report on the prank at all, it will be on *that* page, not here. 1354:
does no one wish to state why this should or should not remain? frankly I'm quite ambivalent; it's revolting, and yet noteworthy.
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on Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the ongoing discussions.
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putting it in, either stop or come explain why it is absolutely notable and not violative of a bunch of blp policies. thanks.
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It is from PBS, a government entity, so is it in the public domain? Those who know a bit more I would appreciate your input.
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Will Beback says a one sentence non-scatological summary might be included if Wines acheivements/awards are also included.
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Thanks for you advice Dsol, I've used some of the referenced material from the page on the exile to ensure a NPOV. Cheers.
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all that is totally fine - as a subject for the page of the guy who supposedly did it. It's not suitable for this page.
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I was asked to comment by Smallbones. I do not see where I have discussed this before, but but my current view is that
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to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
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https://web.archive.org/web/20091015031851/http://nytimes.com/learning/students/ask_reporters/Michael_Wines.html
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Actually I'll remove the whole section in a second but that is a different matter, based on the discussion at
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merely incidental to this story either, since the pie attack was a direct response to his journalistic work.
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Dsol and Cooke want it included - but don't actually say why - only arguing that it can be included.
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is my own lame contribution - and judging by the dates etc. you can navigate back and forth there.
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I have raised the issue of the recent restoration of an attack on the subject of this article at
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before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template
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frankly it is not a notable thing that Michael Wines did. It's a notable thing that Taibbi did.
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Digwuren has removed the information, without discussion. I have reverted his removal, pending
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I tend to agree with you....there was a quite some contention about including this material at
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article. Isn't there an admin somewhere who can show this guy a few key policies, especially
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instead, because he doesn't seem all that notable without the eXile prose. Thoughts? --
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If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with
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http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons/Noticeboard/Archive25
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http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/foreign_correspondence/july-dec01/terrorism_9-18.html
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You just inserted the following segment: The person described in this BLP article
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And horse semen or no horse semen, lofasz or no lofasz, that is the case with the
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please let me know if i can make a coffee for you as well (ok joking...) hehe,
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5 vs. 2 looks like a consensus to me, as far as it can be done in this matter.
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If this article survives the deletion process would this photo be allowalbe?
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https://www.nytimes.com/learning/students/ask_reporters/Michael_Wines.html
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It's alright that it is *there*. The incident says a lot more about
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personally i find the episode absolutely unbelievably revolting.
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Unknown-importance biography (arts and entertainment) articles
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All this is based on BLP, NPOV, notability, and weight issues
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from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially
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Where did you get the idea that PBS is a government entity?
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Please note the POV-pusher is also removing information the
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for additional information. I made the following changes:
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Stub-Class biography (arts and entertainment) articles
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Stub-Class United States articles of Low-importance
1676:using the archive tool instructions below. Editors 1193:happened to him. It's a highly unusual situation. 721:Let's put it this way: once upon a time, somebody 316:This article has not yet received a rating on the 1662:This message was posted before February 2018. 1272:evidently he still writes for new york times 8: 880:. Do we want such "content" in BLP articles? 407:Knowledge (XXG):WikiProject New York (state) 1837:Low-importance Columbia University articles 1797:Arts and entertainment work group articles 1632:I have just modified one external link on 905: 468: 329: 231: 117: 89: 1313:this deleted the thing about the attack. 569:Knowledge (XXG):WikiProject United States 30:on 16 February 2009 (UTC). The result of 1842:WikiProject Columbia University articles 1827:Low-importance New York (state) articles 1832:Stub-Class Columbia University articles 470: 331: 233: 119: 1812:Unknown-importance Journalism articles 1735:stop putting the pie stuff on the page 296:Knowledge (XXG):WikiProject Journalism 1852:Low-importance United States articles 410:Template:WikiProject New York (state) 219:the arts and entertainment work group 192:Knowledge (XXG):WikiProject Biography 7: 1822:Stub-Class New York (state) articles 522:This article is within the scope of 383:This article is within the scope of 276:This article is within the scope of 168:This article is within the scope of 1777:Biography articles of living people 1061:Yes, that was seen, back in 2007. 108:It is of interest to the following 1877:WikiProject United States articles 1867:Low-importance Louisville articles 930:Warning: if the current edit wars 572:Template:WikiProject United States 14: 1847:Stub-Class United States articles 1636:. Please take a moment to review 718:than it says about Michael Wines. 692:Go ahead. The material is all at 614: 509: 499: 472: 370: 360: 333: 263: 253: 235: 155: 145: 121: 90: 49:This article must adhere to the 19: 1872:WikiProject Louisville articles 1817:WikiProject Journalism articles 589:This article has been rated as 452:WikiProject Columbia University 427:This article has been rated as 299:Template:WikiProject Journalism 26:This article was nominated for 1862:Stub-Class Louisville articles 1807:Stub-Class Journalism articles 1802:WikiProject Biography articles 195:Template:WikiProject Biography 1: 1782:Stub-Class biography articles 1268:13:00, 21 November 2015 (UTC) 1233:20:05, 20 February 2009 (UTC) 1203:15:27, 25 February 2015 (UTC) 1090:22:00, 16 February 2009 (UTC) 1074:16:54, 16 February 2009 (UTC) 1057:15:01, 16 February 2009 (UTC) 1048:20:56, 15 February 2009 (UTC) 1033:17:35, 15 February 2009 (UTC) 1023:14:52, 15 February 2009 (UTC) 1008:10:50, 15 February 2009 (UTC) 970:10:33, 15 February 2009 (UTC) 944:22:17, 14 February 2009 (UTC) 890:05:38, 15 February 2009 (UTC) 872:04:35, 15 February 2009 (UTC) 858:04:21, 15 February 2009 (UTC) 832:12:05, 11 February 2009 (UTC) 754:00:10, 15 February 2009 (UTC) 627:This article is supported by 449:This article is supported by 401:and see a list of open tasks. 290:and see a list of open tasks. 216:This article is supported by 52:biographies of living persons 1617:19:18, 6 December 2016 (UTC) 1586:16:17, 25 October 2016 (UTC) 1566:08:46, 16 October 2016 (UTC) 1319:but should we delete this? 812:03:16, 6 February 2009 (UTC) 797:01:25, 6 February 2009 (UTC) 772:14:26, 5 February 2009 (UTC) 725:. This notable incident is 386:WikiProject New York (state) 180:contribute to the discussion 1530:22:40, 12 August 2016 (UTC) 1494:08:07, 12 August 2016 (UTC) 1479:21:52, 11 August 2016 (UTC) 1441:10:11, 10 August 2016 (UTC) 920:12:40, 16 August 2017 (UTC) 672:19:04, 4 January 2008 (UTC) 64:must be removed immediately 1893: 1693:(last update: 5 June 2024) 1629:Hello fellow Wikipedians, 1427:20:12, 9 August 2016 (UTC) 1396:09:40, 9 August 2016 (UTC) 1248:20:14, 13 March 2009 (UTC) 845:comes into play, and yes, 595:project's importance scale 433:project's importance scale 318:project's importance scale 1730:08:30, 20 July 2017 (UTC) 1381:18:29, 10 July 2016 (UTC) 727:widely reported on Google 706:18:01, 14 June 2008 (UTC) 687:05:53, 13 June 2008 (UTC) 610: 588: 525:WikiProject United States 494: 448: 426: 413:New York (state) articles 355: 315: 248: 215: 140: 116: 1763:05:26, 4 July 2020 (UTC) 1349:01:56, 7 July 2016 (UTC) 1302:01:58, 7 July 2016 (UTC) 1275:- that much is obvious. 1176:15:32, 3 June 2014 (UTC) 1155:15:26, 3 June 2014 (UTC) 530:United States of America 1625:External links modified 1115:06:26, 1 May 2013 (UTC) 378:New York (state) portal 949:Superfluous references 630:WikiProject Louisville 607: 575:United States articles 445: 279:WikiProject Journalism 212: 134:Arts and Entertainment 98:This article is rated 1307:Taibbi attack - again 729:, yet the article on 606: 444: 211: 171:WikiProject Biography 102:on Knowledge (XXG)'s 1674:regular verification 936:William M. 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1359:Happy 1327:Happy 1280:Happy 1215:Photo 1151:talk 1582:talk 1578:dsol 1562:talk 1500:said 1490:talk 1486:dsol 1447:here 1437:talk 1433:dsol 1392:talk 1388:dsol 1264:talk 1244:talk 1229:talk 1199:talk 1172:talk 1168:dsol 1107:talk 1070:talk 1044:talk 1040:dsol 1019:talk 1004:talk 966:talk 940:talk 916:talk 886:talk 827:. -- 808:talk 793:talk 789:dsol 768:talk 702:talk 698:Dsol 683:talk 668:talk 178:and 34:was 1756:day 1682:RfC 1652:to 1610:day 1523:day 1472:day 1420:day 1374:day 1342:day 1295:day 1240:DHN 1146:DGG 1087:Tom 1054:Tom 1030:Tom 585:Low 423:Low 393:of 312:??? 57:BLP 1773:: 1695:. 1690:}} 1686:{{ 1584:) 1564:) 1556:. 1492:) 1439:) 1394:) 1266:) 1246:) 1231:) 1201:) 1174:) 1153:) 1136:If 1113:) 1109:• 1072:) 1046:) 1021:) 1006:) 968:) 942:) 918:) 888:) 810:) 795:) 770:) 704:) 685:) 670:) 637:). 483:: 459:). 344:: 132:: 1727:) 1723:( 1710:. 1703:. 1580:( 1560:( 1488:( 1435:( 1390:( 1262:( 1242:( 1227:( 1197:( 1170:( 1149:( 1105:( 1068:( 1042:( 1017:( 1002:( 964:( 938:( 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Index

Articles for deletion
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the discussion
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this noticeboard
this help page

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Biography
Arts and Entertainment
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Biography portal
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