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Talk:Mulan (2020 film)

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this that I think warrant an update. Not many readers actually clicked the underlying link to check this and might leave the page with outdated impression. On a side note, 94,935 IMDB users reviewed the movie and a combined score of 5.6 was derived. Objectively speaking, no news media would probably report on this increment due to budget cuts and the fake news accusation environment thanks to Trump. All I am trying to say is we shouldn't give too much credence to one single reporter's work if it's already outdated three months later. We either don't have to report on the score which is user generated or we should provide an update when the size underlying the score has increased by three folds. That being said, I am sure you can find some other guideline out there saying I mis-edited. Assuming you are from Ireland based on your IP address, I want to add another context which is the fact that Knowledge is blocked in China. So many Chinese internet users can't participate here to discuss. I just want you to understand that whatever we write here matters. If we are not trying to make Knowledge better with more pertinent facts, why do we even bother? Why do I even bother with my unpaid time? Whatever. You do what you have to do.
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Chinese government. Seeing how big of a story Hollywood's censorship of itself related to stories that are negative of CCP China has become, I think it could be interesting and relevant for readers and great if an editor could find a way to include this story in the article once the news around it has finished or died down a little. I don't think there needs to be a whole section on it or anything, but as (mainly) a reader of Knowledge I think this merits inclusion. However, since I'm not a normal Knowledge editor and this is a somewhat controversial topic I'd love to hear some input from more experienced Wikipedians. Thank you.
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talks to many inputs to the current film including rewriting the original script, thus the mention of the original writers, and incorporation of other inputs in the creation of the new film. If you object to adding the directors as the formal author of the finished film as per normal practice, then just mention the source works leaving out the authors. Or leave out the based on part of the infobox completely as it wasn't really based on any of them per what the credits says, just inspired by, and the article gives a much more complete description that can't be accurately summarized in one line in the infobox.
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supported by many noteworthy sources. Honestly, I would be more on your side if this bit of info is elaborated on more, or at least mentioned in high level news sources like The Hollywood Reporter or Variety. Complex.com is not what I, or Knowledge, can truly consider a high level, trustworthy source. I am sorry, but for now on, we can not include the idea of "some US theaters will play Mulan" because few sources barely mention it, nor can it be viewed as a theatrical release, due to the lack of substantial trustworthy sources.
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Change the part where it says that Mulan was delayed to July 24th 2020 because of covid-19, post-screening re-shoots, and Liu's comments to just being delayed to july 24th because of the Covid-19 pandemic. This is because the articles sited for the reshoots and Liu's comments were published over half
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Hi! This story is still developing so I don't think it's yet ready for inclusion in the article, but the actress who will play Mulan in this movie, Liu Yifei, recently commented that she supported the HK police. Right now there is a large amount of civil unrest in Hong Kong and she is siding with the
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showed 75,688 people. The 12/31/2020 5.0 score as indicated by the more live URL, which was already included in the paragraph at the time of my editing, is based on the accumulated reviews of 244,821 people. The number of people will only grow over time. It is for the reason I had already given plus
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This article also claims that protests in Hong Kong affected the films box office there. I have tried but I cannot find the article I read that said the boycott was unlikely to gain traction, it is a family film and people were going to see it, and the call for a boycott was unlikely to affect that
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This article has since been updated to make note of the criticism and the corrections Yahoo made to their article. It is an improvement, but since it is clear that the information was wrong, I think the weak statement from IndieWire that the figures were "unlikely" (rather than just plain wrong) is
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is the common name in English, thus the name of the article about them on Knowledge. No emphasis is given to anything other than using the most common English language translation of Zhōngguó Gòngchǎndǎng. Also from an English language perspective "Chinese" as an adjective means of or pertaining to
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None of the poster images are free-use. Either could be used in an article if the required non-free-use rationale is attached to the image descriptions justifying use of a copyrighted image in an article, which is normal procedure for poster art. Disney+ is not any more or any less restrictive than
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Saying they acknowledge the writers is not the same as saying the film is based on what they wrote - it is more than that. That article as it is currently written and in the lead and in the development section says the live-action film is an adaptation of the animated film. The development section
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summarising the main feedback from a number of British publications such as The Times, The Guardian, Evening Standard, which can be used to source critic feedback from UK sources. The key findings centre around the release in the UK on Disney+ rather than in cinemas, and how the viewing experience
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Here is the thing, this source you brought does indeed contain what you claim, HOWEVER it is one of the scarce few sources that states that some US theaters will play Mulan, outside of Twitter or other easily editable sources. This claim that "some US theaters will play Mulan" is just not strongly
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weight, to fringe opions. Even reviews that are positive overall may have some criticism of certain aspects of the film. There are plenty of positive reviews, some mixed reviews, and only one wholly negative review from Vox, that seems about right for a film with 73% on Rotten Tomatoes and 66% on
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But the movie is still based on the story of the original movie rather than the movie itself. And while it may be credited differently, the credits acknowledge the screenwriters (the ones who make or remake the story) but not the directors (the ones who lead the cast and crew to making the story
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The credits of the film say near the very end "the producers of the film wish to acknowledge the animated screenplay by Rita Hsiao, Christopher Sanders, Philip LaZebnik, Raymond Singer, & Eugenia Bostwick-Singer, and the story by Robert D. San Souci. The original film's directors aren’t even
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is it described as a mainstream media. It is a "conservative-leaning daily tabloid newspaper." 5.0 is a psychological threshold for a lot of people. Not many people in China use VPN. Many have given up. I merely gave a fair and balance updated view of the score, so that we are keeping the single
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Rather than having the incorrect statement from Yahoo and Indiewire only saying it was "unlikely" it should be removed entirely because it was incorrect and misleading. Yahoo seems to have changed the article, which now includes the note "Editor’s note: This article has been updated to show that
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The name of the ruling party that runs China should be changed. Calling it the "Chinese Communist Party" the far-right and Qanon more ammunition and also gives emphasis to the racial and ethnic nature of the name, and stresses the "otherness" of the party. It's a deliberate racial dog whistling.
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There is no evidence this impacted schedule decision-making by Disney. No doubt Liu's comment caused a lot of hot debate on Chinese social media between HK demonstrators and Chinese fans, which does merit discussion on Liu's page, but it does not belong here because there is simply no credible
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No, it became a big enough thing that there are multiple articles written about the incident, the English speaking internet was talking about it constantly, and it started a trending hashtag to boycott the entire film and boycott Disney. It's relevant to the film itself as well as the actress,
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However it is sometimes allowed when other sources give it a lot of coverage such as when there is a a big disparity, and that deleted section did include a reference to an article from CBR which was doing just that. It would be better if there was more than one source indicating there was a
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Provide source for claim in main article opening "...it would instead be released on September 4, 2020 on Disney+ for a premium fee in countries where the service had launched. It will have a traditional theatrical release..." link to Q3 2020 Earnings Call where announcement was first made:
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After studying the history of the article's title, I got the statement that although the theatrical release likely won't be in 2020, the premier was already in 2020, meaning that it's a 2020 film regardless of whether its theatrical release is in 2020 or 2050. Any other film of this kind??
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With all due respect to Elaine Yao, the "senior" reporter at SCMP who doesn't have a journalism degree, I would say at the time of her reporting on the "cumulative" 4.7 score she didn't include the fact that how many people in total had viewed the movie. The archived URL from
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According to the SCMP article the score at the time was "4.7 out of 10 on the rating site Douban". (We should use the score according to the source, not the live score on the site that keeps changing, same as we would do if it was a score from IMDB reported by the New York
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journalist honest. It's more likely because of the pandemic that tanked the box office. I have very stubborn friends who refused to go to movie theaters, despite the capacity limit is at 40%. By claiming it isn't that good, you are not being objective. Happy new year!
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a year before the film was delayed. The film also had a press screening for critics a week before its release and the response was good, so the comments and reported reshoots had nothing to do with the film being dealayed to july 24th 2020, and the pandemic caused it.
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since the film is still coming to re-opened theaters simultaneously with Disney+. So, how do I add the poster onto the article? Also, where did the Disney+ poster come from? Knowledge's article on how to add images onto articles is not really helping me. --
3038:, whether they are from IMDB or Douban. The consensus has been to not include the user voted web polls (Rotten Tomatoes, IMDB, or otherwise). Rare exceptions are allowed only when mainstream media reports on them first. Be it the SCMP or the 2999:
issues myself. Please comment if you think information about the Douban score having increased to 5.0 is notable and if it is adequately sourced. Again there's not reason to consider Douban any more reliable than an IMDB user score. --
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Last night I proposed an Afd because recent news says the film was cancelled. But it got a speedy keep. This morning I moved the page to reflect the fact that it has been cancelled, but somebody reverted me immediately. What's wrong??
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Any suggestions on cleaning up the critical response section? It seems very one sided toward the negative reviews, despite prominent positive reviews from critics. There should be indifference in showing both sides.
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The poster from Fandango Media is not a free image, meaning Knowledge can not use the image without a potential lawsuit. The Disney+ poster came from source(s) that allow free distribution of its images and content.
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evidence it impacted the release schedule, which was clearly a decision based in COVID-19 impacts. Editors need to review Knowledge policy and follow it. Therefore, I will edit.Xiao-zi : 小紫 22:33, 11 June 2020 (UTC)
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As long it is an official poster ultimately from Disney, not fan art or a non-Disney creation, and a proper non-free-use rationale is provided. Also subject to consensus in article as to what poster is preferred.
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The lead is meant to summarize the article as a whole... seeing this is the case I feel we should include mention of the controversies in the lead. We can't just ignore the impact they have had on the film. -
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The comments made have created a sizable internet following to boycott the movie, it would make sense to include a controversies section of the article to discuss this, as it is notable and highly relevant.
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of the original film that it is based on, not the original film itself. The writers gets the creator credit for the screenplay only, the directors get the creator credit for the entire finished product.
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for controversial moves needs to be followed, not just move it again. A move discussion is mandatory after the first move was undone. Edit history explains why the original move was undone and referenced
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When someone who has actually seen the film writes a plot summary for the film. When a plot summary is in the section instead of a premise statement, it is appropriate to replace the header with "Plot".
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suffers as a result as the director Niki Caro filmed scenes with the intention they be seen in IMAX cinemas, whilst the lead actress Lui Yifei is praised by several critics for her portrayal of Mulan.
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Similarly the Chinese user voted ratings on Douban are not notable by themselves. They can only be included because they were reported in the South China Morning Post which makes them notable.
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I actually googled this movie a few times in the years after that, hoping there would be news about it. Only just now did I see that a new Knowledge article was created about it, and
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It looks like the one before but with the date replaced with coming soon. It is likely OK to use but the current one is also good, so don't see much benefit to changing it.
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Deadline is reporting that the first trailer for Disney's live-action Mulan made 175.1 million views in it's first 24 hours, with 52 million of the views coming from China:
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significant disparity between audiences and critics, maybe then there would be enough reason to make an exception and include more information about audience response.
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I know Knowledge is blocked in China, but I don't see how that is relevant. Users with VPN's can still ignore, read, edit, or vandalize the Knowledge article for Mulan.
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we should be using what the credits say for both cast and character names. If what is in the article doesn't match the credits, the article should be changed to do so.
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Although I wish it wasn't necessary so often, and it would be better if more editors understood how to write for an encyclopedia without violating a simple rule like
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I’m a box office/budget nerd, so the alleged $ 290 million+ production budget of the film interests me. There’s plenty of articles surrounding the cost of the film (
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has updated the article to include the score as it stands as of December 2020. This was a good faith edit but I don't think it strictly follows the requirements of
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s page like “Over the course of production the film was the subject of several controversies, including changes to the source material and filming in Xinjiang."
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I would also suggest adding a warning comment in the wikisource reminding editors that they should not update the Douban score, but I leave that up to you. --
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an other source of poster art for that requirement and any source that distributes Disney copyrighted material can't remove Disney's copyright restrictions.
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Generally for films the director is considered the overall creative force that brings all the efforts of the others together under his creative vision. See
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At the moment this article claims that the middling Douban score was somehow significant to the box office performance of this film in China. Was it though?
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China has a slight problem in its restive provinces like Xinjiang and Tibet, so therefore the next Mulan sequels should cover the diversity of China.
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was ultimately given the role of director, with principal photography set to begin in Shanghai on 15 September 2010. However, a 2010 net loss of the
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China so "Chinese" is just a different but equivalent way of saying "of China", so they mean the exact same thing. Neither is the official name.
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The credits and official merchandise list her as Xianniang, not Xian Lang. Other names listed may not match the credits as well, not sure.
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Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a
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If there is a based on credit listing the original writers, it should be clear in the article and in the based on attribute it is the
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Unless it affects the film (how well it does, casting changes, etc), it probably should be mentioned on the actor's page, not here.
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can have their theatrical posters front and center on their articles despite showing in a limited amount of theatres, then why not
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The new theatrical poster from Fandango looks like an official poster. It simply says "Coming Soon To Theatres" on the bottom. --
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it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a
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and its affiliated companies on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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7Park’s data on “Mulan” reflected the percentage of active Disney+ users that had accessed the app over that time period." --
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The page was bold moved before you did it again and moved back. Moving it again means the move is controversial so process at
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https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/general-news/disney-under-fire-for-filming-mulan-in-chinas-xinjiang-province-4056383/
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I was surprised to see that your request was not completed yet, despite you explained everything with accuracy. Thank you.
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the ongoing discussions.
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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What point are you making by showing that the score has increased from 4.7 to 5.0? By adding it you are saying something.
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since there was no need for speculation when the other sources made it absolutely clear that Yahoo did get it wrong. --
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as the reason the original title is correct. I doubt a move discussion would lead to a different title being supported.
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It's a stub, but it might contain some useful information for the new article. For one, the current page states that
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At what point is it appropriate to replace the section currently titled "Premise" with the full plot of the film? --
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related articles on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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and instead of saying "now" it should only say specify when. The article is not locked so I'm going to fix the
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https://deadline.com/2019/07/mulan-teaser-trailer-175-million-views-24-hours-china-worldwide-disney-1202643480/
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As the other film doesn't (yet) have an article on WP. If and when that happens, then the RM should be done.
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https://www.cnbc.com/2020/09/08/disney-thanked-groups-linked-to-china-detention-camps-in-mulan-credits.html
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I think the reasons the film failed are much simpler than that, it wasn't that good ... and Coronavirus.
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https://comicbook.com/movies/2018/05/07/disney-live-action-mulan-budget-most-expensive-movies-ever-made/
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considering her actions caused such negative publicity for and controversy around the film and Disney.
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Is "2020 film" a perfectly okay designation for a film whose release isn't until a year like 2050??
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Damn, I'm sorry, I didn't see it, my bad, but still, how soulless do you have to be to film there.
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is still going to be released in select North American theaters that re-opened simultaneously with
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after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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Already sourced in the Release section, there's no need no source it in the lead section as well.
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Characters based from the 1998 original film had made themselves their new names for example:
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appear on screen), pretty much like the aforementioned live-action adaptations I've listed.
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I'm hoping we can post this info in the "Marketing" section of the film's Knowledge page.
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The film is rated PG-13 and has a darker tone than the original, so can this page say it?
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Audience response from IMDB and Rotten Tomatoes is not normally allowed because it is
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based on attribute supports your original interpretation. I withdraw my objection.
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They delayed the release date of USA because of the 2019–20 coronavirus pandemic.
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mentioned in the credits. And if look at the both the credits and the articles of
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https://www.complex.com/pop-culture/disney-mulan-decision-movie-theaters-explainer
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It's already in there under Filming in Xinjiang, in case you don't already know.
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Looks okay to me. It is not about "showing both sides" it is about not giving
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Will Mushu the Dragon be in this movie? Will Eddie Murphy reprise his role? --
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I actually created an article about this movie back in 2010, two days after
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This article has been viewed enough times in a single week to appear in the
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X: "The film currently scores 4.9 out of 10 on the rating site Douban." to
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Anyway, I'm a big root for this film. Let's hope it will be good! Cheers,
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At the very least it needs be edited to properly follow the rules about
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I removed the speculation from IndieWire that maybe Yahoo got it wrong,
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Unless you have a reliable source for that, we cannot use it here. -
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I reverted to the score to 4.7, the number that was reported by the
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In the "Release" section, the words after "due to the" need to say "
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Mulan 24-hour global trailer debut viewership information revealed
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Thanks. Takes time and that's fine, but I do appreciate the fix.
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An editor made a good faith edit and updated the Douban score.
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Y: "The film scored 4.7 out of 10 on the rating site Douban."
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Wait for the other film to get an article. This is too soon.
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in August 2018, almost eight years after I wrote my article!
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Nothing yet to be announced a new trailer of Mulan (2020)?
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about it. My article ended up userfied, though. Here it is:
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I found the new theatrical poster for the film courtesy of
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if appropriate. To what should it be changed? Also, please
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https://www.cbr.com/disney-mulan-record-high-budget-studio/
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Knowledge:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_313#Douban
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The New theatrical trailer of Mulan is not coming yet?
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So, I heard they filmed near a concentration camp...
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I wouldn’t oppose it. Even a single line similar to
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This article has been checked against the following
387:, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of 2121:in the external links. Let's remove that! (Source: 1274:caused the whole thing to be shelved indefinitely. 1262:was to direct the ill-fated 2010 attempt on making 760: 674: 3514:C-Class United States articles of Low-importance 3494:C-Class China-related articles of Low-importance 2535:Semi-protected edit request on 11 September 2020 1463:No news about the new trailer of Mulan (2020)? 33:for general discussion of the article's subject. 2436:Semi-protected edit request on 4 September 2020 515:. 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The result of 195:This article was nominated for 3504:C-Class United States articles 3484:C-Class China-related articles 3414:Low-importance Disney articles 2868:05:27, 28 September 2020 (UTC) 2840:16:07, 23 September 2020 (UTC) 2736:07:10, 23 September 2020 (UTC) 2706:21:10, 21 September 2020 (UTC) 2686:20:53, 21 September 2020 (UTC) 2648:16:09, 19 September 2020 (UTC) 2624:22:18, 13 September 2020 (UTC) 2603:10:49, 11 September 2020 (UTC) 2584:10:34, 11 September 2020 (UTC) 2133:) - 9:57PM - August 10, 2020 1454:03:30, 10 September 2020 (UTC) 235:August 30 to September 5, 2020 1: 3439:War films task force articles 3199:20:56, 31 December 2020 (UTC) 3179:06:16, 17 December 2020 (UTC) 3077:20:49, 31 December 2020 (UTC) 3030:07:18, 31 December 2020 (UTC) 3010:00:51, 31 December 2020 (UTC) 2971:01:30, 23 November 2020 (UTC) 2769:01:33, 23 November 2020 (UTC) 2529:20:08, 8 September 2020 (UTC) 2510:17:31, 8 September 2020 (UTC) 2490:02:25, 6 September 2020 (UTC) 2474:02:20, 6 September 2020 (UTC) 2455:14:20, 4 September 2020 (UTC) 2400:) - 1:26PM - August 12, 2020 1820:Chinese film of the same name 1239:First version of this article 1125:This article is supported by 1101:This article is supported by 895:and see a list of open tasks. 395:and see a list of open tasks. 42:Put new text under old text. 2947:07:15, 21 October 2020 (UTC) 2926:04:22, 20 October 2020 (UTC) 2309:) - 8:08PM - August 11, 2020 2249:) - 7:37PM - August 11, 2020 1654:to support your assertions. 1551:23:37, 5 December 2019 (UTC) 1531:15:30, 1 December 2019 (UTC) 1505:14:30, 7 November 2019 (UTC) 1479:15:51, 1 November 2019 (UTC) 1231:02:56, 11 October 2018 (UTC) 1212:21:01, 10 October 2018 (UTC) 1170:21:15, 18 October 2022 (UTC) 630:Military history WikiProject 401:Knowledge:WikiProject Disney 3424:WikiProject Disney articles 3267:11:25, 2 October 2021 (UTC) 3249:21:46, 1 October 2021 (UTC) 3234:21:31, 1 October 2021 (UTC) 3096:05:16, 6 January 2021 (UTC) 2888:05:50, 5 October 2020 (UTC) 2807:to reactivate your request. 2795:has been answered. Set the 2752:19:20, 3 October 2020 (UTC) 2565:to reactivate your request. 2553:has been answered. Set the 2418:17:43, 12 August 2020 (UTC) 2345:00:20, 12 August 2020 (UTC) 2278:23:41, 11 August 2020 (UTC) 2226:14:15, 11 August 2020 (UTC) 2203:07:23, 11 August 2020 (UTC) 2187:02:20, 11 August 2020 (UTC) 2157:07:20, 11 August 2020 (UTC) 2141:01:57, 11 August 2020 (UTC) 2027:to reactivate your request. 2015:has been answered. Set the 1752:Requested move 18 July 2020 1704:to reactivate your request. 1692:has been answered. Set the 1612:to reactivate your request. 1600:has been answered. Set the 1417:13:50, 18 August 2019 (UTC) 1402:17:30, 16 August 2019 (UTC) 1381:18:04, 13 August 2019 (UTC) 1193:Commander Tung (General Li) 1128:WikiProject Asian Americans 901:Knowledge:WikiProject China 404:Template:WikiProject Disney 50:New to Knowledge? Welcome! 3555: 3499:WikiProject China articles 3434:C-Class war films articles 3385:22:23, 27 April 2022 (UTC) 3367:22:04, 27 April 2022 (UTC) 3341:21:46, 27 April 2022 (UTC) 3325:05:00, 27 April 2022 (UTC) 3306:04:30, 27 April 2022 (UTC) 3044:reference reliable sources 2849:Please change the sentence 2817:and not a reliable source. 2078:18:21, 7 August 2020 (UTC) 2050:15:57, 7 August 2020 (UTC) 1816:Mulan (2020 American film) 1576:23:46, 12 March 2020 (UTC) 1432:16:06, 12 March 2020 (UTC) 1069:project's importance scale 927:project's importance scale 904:Template:WikiProject China 695:Referencing and citation: 572:American cinema task force 525:Knowledge:WikiProject Film 427:project's importance scale 3454:WikiProject Film articles 3373:Template:Infobox film/doc 3290:The Lion King (2019 film) 1989:15:02, 24 July 2020 (UTC) 1974:14:59, 24 July 2020 (UTC) 1960:14:50, 24 July 2020 (UTC) 1929:12:20, 24 July 2020 (UTC) 1895:14:55, 18 July 2020 (UTC) 1876:09:13, 18 July 2020 (UTC) 1854:07:56, 18 July 2020 (UTC) 1837:05:37, 18 July 2020 (UTC) 1806:16:33, 18 July 2020 (UTC) 1668:00:52, 16 June 2020 (UTC) 1629:00:32, 16 June 2020 (UTC) 1537:What of Mushu the Dragon? 1362:18:07, 18 July 2019 (UTC) 1330:01:25, 10 July 2019 (UTC) 1298:14:01, 16 June 2019 (UTC) 1124: 1084: 1062: 999:WikiProject United States 968: 920: 853: 817: 801: 785: 756: 653:military history articles 615: 568: 548: 528:Template:WikiProject Film 465: 420: 353: 332: 80:Be welcoming to newcomers 2959:South China Morning Post 2660:Communist Party of China 1914:Was this film released?? 1905:Please do not modify it. 1766:Please do not modify it. 1746:18:11, 3 July 2020 (UTC) 1724:17:50, 3 July 2020 (UTC) 1004:United States of America 245:September 13 to 19, 2020 3409:C-Class Disney articles 2693:Chinese Communist Party 2656:Chinese Communist Party 2571:Link to Douban review: 1865:okay, I withdraw this! 1818:– disambiguate against 1348:to list just two, plus 1184:Chen Honghui (Li Shang) 761:Associated task forces: 706:Coverage and accuracy: 389:The Walt Disney Company 240:September 6 to 12, 2020 2632:Straight Outta Compton 1780:Withdrawn by nominator 1121: 1081: 1049:United States articles 907:China-related articles 814: 798: 782: 739:Supporting materials: 667: 565: 545: 314:This article is rated 75:avoid personal attacks 3429:C-Class film articles 2162:New theatrical poster 2119:Disney+ original film 1485:About the new trailer 1190:Po (Chien Po; simple) 1120: 1080: 813: 797: 781: 666: 564: 544: 100:Neutral point of view 2495: 2442:published an article 1459:New Trailer Upcoming 991:United States portal 787:War films task force 552:War films task force 290:relevant style guide 286:varieties of English 105:No original research 3286:Aladdin (2019 film) 3122:Mulan (2020) - IMDb 2404:WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS 1017:Articles Requested! 728:Grammar and style: 681:for B-class status: 501:join the discussion 288:. 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