1798:"NAMBLA did not focus its attention on sexual rights alone. It advocated a comprehensive program to liberate and empower youth, opposing circumcision, corporal punishment, and any coercion of youth" is not a quote from the organization's mission statement. I am not conflating anything. An organization can advocate for multiple things at once, as this one did. I could find further RS to further back this up as I am aware of much literature on queer history (and my familiarity with this book which was already used here is why I knew of it's section on this organization in the first place).
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boys - the impression is created that the organization supports only adult men targeted by law enforcement. In fact, they support boys who are targeted for the same reasons. This impression conveniently plays into popular narratives which give the impression that all relationships between people of different ages can be conveniently fit into the idea that one participant is an adult, the other a young child, and that the relationship can be characterized by the aforementioned focus on the adult. With regard to this, the opening paragraph reads, "It works to
1634:. And reliable sources consistently agree that NAMBLA exists to legitimize the sexual abuse of boys by adult men. Anything they claim about also advocating for older and younger boys that are close in age or whatever is a smokescreen. Likewise, we describe it as something an adult man does to a child because that's exactly what it is. It is not equivalent to adult relationships, and speaking of misogyny, comparing it to a relationship between an adult man and an adult woman is way off. Bottom line - it's all about the reliable sources.
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1462:"pedophilia," by definition, refers to the feelings of attraction of an older teen or adult to a child. It does not refer to the attraction of a younger individual to an older individual, nor to the attraction between people of different ages. Like the above, it's use in this page contributes to a narrow focus on older partners. Although examples of this should be obvious, the superflousness of the following excerpt will be explained.
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1747:"NAMBLA did not focus its attention on sexual rights alone. It advocated a comprehensive program to liberate and empower youth, opposing circumcision, corporal punishment, and any coercion of youth. Its Web site (www.nambla.org) has proclaimed its support for greater economic, political, and social opportunities for young people and its denunciation of the 'rampant ageism that segregates and isolates them in fear and mistrust.'"
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I think that NAMBLA's association with anti-fascist causes such as the infamous "no pedo bashing, no mike cernovich" banner from (I think) 2017 should be noted on given the continuity between pedophilia apologia and homosexual ideology and theory (see the literal founder of this group), both of which
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There are other issues of neutrality present in this article, such as the disproportionate representation of quotations from law enforcers and mass media - but I will leave it at this for now. After these are addressed, opening another discussion for further issues of neutrality should be considered.
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The introductory section, for instance, misrepresents the range of laws which the organization opposes. While the organization is opposed to the criminalization of relationships of people of different ages per se - including, for example, the criminalization of relationships between younger and older
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As the warning tag on this talk page states, the subject of this article is highly controversial, and furthermore highly politicized. Much of the content on this page is written from a non-neutral point of view involving significant editorial bias. The page frequently uses loaded language which lends
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to understand what this warning means and the conditions which must be met prior to it's removal; it's removal is not a light matter and should not be done surreptitiously. Furthermore, please be aware that the examples listed are not definitive lists of all biases in the page, but should be treated
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Additionally, the page gives the impression that the organization was founded by a single individual. This is not true, as it seems one scholar on this talk page has also explained. It was founded by a sizeable small group of young adult and teen male homosexual activists during the early years of
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Consider, for example, that one would not describe a heterosexual relationship as characterized solely by the attraction to women, narrowly focusing on the male in the relationship. This would be misogynistic at best, and in any case biased. This is what this article does with respect to the older
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Furthermore, the article often superfluously describes individuals, as well as the organization itself, as "pro-pedophilia," "pro-pedophile," and adjacent terms. Although highly negative and loaded (as will be detailed with reference to the relevant policy pages further on in this post), the term
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That is what they say - which is irrelevant in the face of reliable sources that state otherwise. It also doesn't say youth rights anywhere in relation to them in that entire book. It's a stretch of extraordinary magnitude to claim they are a "youth rights" advocacy group. They are a pedophilia
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1a: Things like "claim" or "what it considers" can cast doubt on the truth of the statement asserted, but that would be appropriate in this instance given the treatment of the group in RS. For instance, your edit changed "that did not involve what it considers coercion" to "that did not involve
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At times the article gives the impression that the organization was always rejected by the movement for general homosexual liberation, even though other parts of the article as well as some referenced scholarship correctly contradict this idea. For instance, the following excerpt speaks of "gay
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itself to being read from a non-neutral perspective. Below is a sample of cases of ways this is done in the article as of this post. A political POV warning has been added to the main article for reasons of which the following are examples. Please see
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All relationships involve two people. Prevalent negative narratives about relationships between people of different ages focus narrowly on the adult partner, however, as does the content of this article. For instance, It writes of "laws criminalizing
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which whitewashes NAMBLA and its goals. They advocate for sexual relationships between people above the age of consent and below the age of consent. There is already no impediment to, for instance, a 40 year old sleeping with a 30 year old or
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policy does not apply directly to the subject of this article, it may contain material that relates to living persons, such as friends and family of persons no longer living, or living persons involved in the subject matter. Unsourced or
1773:"a comprehensive program to liberate and empower youth" - which is part of the description of the organization given by the RS referenced, not by NAMBLA of themselves - is practically the definition of youth rights/youth liberation.
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You seem to imply only fascists are opposed to pedophilia. I’m not sure there are enough fascists here to obtain a consensus, but how about it, fascists? Do you feel that if you are opposed to pedophilia then you must be a fascist?
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1c: A sexual relationship between an adult and a child is not a relationship between two equals, it is one in which the adult is abusing the child. It is not coincidental nor non-neutral that the article text does not treat them as
550:, a collaborative effort to improve Knowledge's coverage of significant alternative views in every field, from the sciences to the humanities. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the
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While the example from the opening paragraph cited above is by far the most egregious violation on this page, other examples of these problems of impartial tone include, but are not necessarily limited to, the following excerpts:
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Removing age of consent laws is NAMBLA's primary goal, not a means to achieving it, and it is clearly inaccurate and misleading to list it as the organization's "method". Can we just remove it from the infobox instead?
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who have been jailed for sexual contacts ". In addition to fixing the issues of tone in this sentence, the descriptive meaning of the sentence should reflect the beliefs of the organization, as should the rest of the
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1406:'Operation Alice Day'". (Positive bias; compare, for instance, to the following neutrally-toned wording: "The 'Boston-Boise Committee', a gay rights organization, was formed in response to these events (which
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for information on what this warning means and what must be changed before this label may be removed from this article. Be advised that the following is neither defense of nor opposition to the organization.
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seems fairly accurate throughout the article—where is it being used imprecisely? I don't feel strongly about "condone", because it's describing it from the perspective of Bill
Clinton, etc., not Knowledge.
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Since the 2000 teacher firing happened before the 2013 anonymous hack, it should be listed first. Thus, swap the order of the 2000 teacher firing and the 2013 anonymous hack in the section "Opposition"
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in his book, ". (Positive bias; compare this with a later description, for instance, stating "Jaynes wrote in his diary" - neutral phrasing which merely implies that someone wrote something.)
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that the sexual abuse of children does not involve coercion (even if you personally believe that to be true), for very obvious reasons. Same goes for such language in the opposite direction.
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That source includes both it's own description of the organization as well as a description of what the organization itself says -- as a good description of an organization should do.
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No, it's them quoting NAMBLAs mission statement. You're conflating their desire to remove age of consent laws (which is exactly what that means) with actual youth rights advocacy.
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I see. At least one editor agreed with me, and I find your objection unconvincing, but I will not pursue this further because I would rather spend my time doing something else.
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template. I would say that their primary goal is to have sex with boys, and their method of facilitating that is to remove age of consent laws. So my !vote is no change.
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the movement for homosexual liberation, as one of the sources used in this article (Haggerty, George (2000). Gay histories and cultures: an encyclopedia) also details.
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on
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to wear a sign proclaiming 'NAMBLA walks with me' as he participated in a 1986 gay pride march in Los
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from the See also section... perhaps this might be re-added, if it was thought appropriate / relevant?
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Thanks to everyone who weighed in and helped with this situation. Glad to see the disruption ended.
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to the infobox despite there being no clear connection and no coverage of it in the article itself.
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the men had used drugs and video games to lure the boys into a house." (Positive bias)
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Like I said, unless you can back it up with sources that widely report them as a "
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I've removed the tag as it's completely spurious and EB's last edit which added
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rather as concrete expressions of underlying bias which pervades the article.
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when adding content and consider tagging or removing unsourced information.
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can you please point to exactly which page in the book source you used
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prevented NAMBLA's website from being accessed as part of an operation
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used to influence an audience by using words and phrases with strong
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gay rights groups" would suffice for the first thing you mentioned.
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advocacy organization in the United States. It works to
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Hi. Broadly speaking, I think you misunderstand that
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1223:Alerts
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