Talk:Northeast Project (Chinese Academy of Social Sciences)

2116:

sources (from GRF, and English-language apologists for GRF such as Byington) construct a hypothetical situation where Goguryeo people deny that they are Chinese (based on some essentialized idea of "Chineseness" that excludes Manchurian peoples, we are left to assume), and we are left to assume that the only other option is Korean—not very firm "pro-Korean ground". There is some dissent in South Korea, less well-known than the Chinese dissent of course, to the nationalist Goguryeo narrative. They are associated with leftists, especially of Sogang University, who argue that to deny China's recognition of Goguryeo as part of its own heritage is "an act of violence". And there was the well-publicized case of the South Korean who published a book saying that Goguryeo was part of the "history of Liaodong" (in the broad, extra-peninsular sense), separate from both Korea and China. Related to this argument are those Koreans who argue that Goguryeo was "Manchurian" as opposed to Korean or Chinese, and that conventionally "Chinese" dynasties like the Liao were not really "Chinese". Sorry for basing this comment off of memory rather than digging up the sources for every statement (time spent arguing on such articles is not very rewarding), but I wanted to clear up the misconception that there is one "Korean" POV, when there are "Korean" views all over the place, which if you search for you can find. However, it is true that the mass media in one country went hysterical, and there were serialized newspaper tributes to Goguryeo, period dramas on television, etc.

2181:

Nationalist state model upon the Culturalist tradition of the pre-modern past. On one level such an attempt to redefine the pre-modern state might seem practicable (if inaccurate), since one could simply conceive of the larger Chinese tributary network as encompassing a kind of super-state, inclusive of outer tributary states that were not directly governed by the Chinese emperor. Unfortunately, this idealized tribute system, to the extent that it ever existed at all, was far too fluid and complex a system to be represented as a rigidly bound polity of any kind. Nevertheless, Zhang Boquan attempts to account for the political inclusion of tributary states in the Chinese nation by invoking the concept of a duel system of government, with an internal mode for the central territorial administration, and an external mode for regions like Koguryo that were entirely autonomous (that is, for states over which the Chinese emperor could exercise no direct control). Zhang appears to have had the current policy for governing autonomous regions in mind when he formulated his model, and he even draws terminology directly from the 1982 constitution and the 1984 Minority Region Autonomy Law when he states that ancient China from the Qin period onward had been “a unitary multinational state” (Zhang and Wei 1998, 19). Ultimately, however, Zhang’s model fails in the Northeast because, as we have seen, it cannot as stated simultaneously justify the inclusion of Koguryo and the exclusion of Paekche and Silla.

425:(Someone else): Only China claims Goguryeo originate from the Hongshan culture which is Western Manchuria. Japan, Korea, and most modern East Asian historians thinj that Goguryeo, Buyeo, Gojoseon, and the Yemaek people likely originate from Northern Manchuria or Southern Siberia. Hell we know the Ye maek even exist because of Chinese records. This is backed up by Ancient Chinese books recording the approximate location of each dynasty. And they knew Buyeo definetly came from the Northern parts of Manchuria not the Western. And genetic studies done by the Europeans (one specifically specializing in these types of genetics) also seem to think that Goguryeo came from Buyeo which came from the Ye Maek or the fragments of Gojoseon. Also what Koreans claim Hongshan as Korean? Far as I know they don't even know what Hongshan is since historically it's never involved them. They don't need to know Chinese history and it's ethnic groups so they don't. Far as I can see from your citations you don't show any definite proof that Goguryeo was the Hongshan people only what the Hongshan people are today not that Goguryeo came from that area. Literally everyone knows that Dangun isn't real he's mythological. That's like saying the Greek Gods were real obviously they're not. There might have been a Dangun like figure in Gojoseon but there was no Dangun himself. That's only something North Korea thinks. 2024:, because this would mean proposing a conclusion ("this is historical revisionism") that doesn't appear in our two kinds of sources: (1) historical studies of Parhae and Koguryo that don't discuss the Northeast Project explicitly; and (2) sources on the NEP that discuss Parhae and Koguryo but don't speak of "historical revisionism" explicitly. Not to mention that we would have to solve the problem of whether Parhae and Koguryo are treated as "Chinese," "Korean," or something else entirely in a large selection of secondary studies, which seems like a daunting task! :) A simpler (and more neutral) solution would be to say that Koreans (scholars, government, public opinion) have viewed the Northeast Project as a flagrant example of Chinese historical revisionism for such-and-such reasons. We then need to balance this with the NEP's own point of view, which worries that the two Koreas are trying to appropriate the Chinese Northeast into Korean history. Both positions are (to some extent) political, so all points should be clearly attributed, and none taken for a fact or presented as such. Then we will have a neutral encyclopedia that presents controversies in an informative way without taking sides. Cheers, 1343:

than the state (guojia), and he notes that a state may encompass multiple nationalities, while a single nationality may span multiple states. For Jin, the history of the Northeast is precisely the history of its nationalities. “The Northeast” is itself defined primarily in terms of its nationalities and secondarily in terms of the territories occupied by those nationalities. The territorial extent of the Northeast therefore shifted through time as the various nationalities expanded and contracted, and at times the Northeast included parts of the Korean peninsula. Throughout time the nationalities of the Northeast always represented an integral part of the greater Chinese nation (zhonghua minzu) (1:15B-25B). Jin conceived of the history of the Northeast as a complex and ever changing process defined by the movements of and competition among its various nationalities. He periodized the history of the Northeast into six phases on this basis, using both the relative strength and weakness of the Han presence as well as the changing permutations among the indigenous nationalities as the criteria for delimiting historical eras (1:25B-27B).

3119:

wikipedia or baidu "northeast engineering", the second Gija is shang dynasty,If Gija is a part of Korea, then Han people are the ancestors of Koreans. Today Han people do not recognize Han's kinship with Korea at all.After the liaohe region, followed by South Korea early even South Korea people think hongshan culture is their, unfortunately the hongshan culture YDNA is N1 and O3, C, and south Korean people are of the opinion that liaohe bone carving is their, it's a pity that these bone carving earlier in the Yellow River, and the Yellow River and liaohe also has the longshan culture (bone carving inventor),In addition, the YDNA of Longshan culture is O3, which is the main gene of all the Han people (the Han people also have a small amount of O1, R, C, N1). However, R is the indigenous people of the Central Plains, and the Han people migrated from Shandong

2177:

Koguryo’s inclusion as part of China are its having been established on territory previously governed by Han commanderies and its acceptance of formal investiture, it is difficult to understand Zhang’s exclusion of Paekche, which was established in the former territory of the Daifang commandery and whose kings accepted investiture at least as often as did those of Koguryo. An extension of this argument can also be made to apply to Silla, yet Zhang, without explanation, explicitly excludes Paekche and Silla from his conception of ancient China and instead identifies them as the forebears of the modern Korean states. Unless modern state borders are a concern in Zhang’s definition (despite his assertions to the contrary), there is no logic in the inclusion of Koguryo and the exclusion of Paekche and Silla based upon the stated criteria.

2094:(GRF, which actually has a much clearer relation to the South Korean government: answering directly to the education ministry!) and made that article all about the relevant arguments in the Goguryeo controversies? It would be a recipe for the same sort of bias and primary-secondary source restrictions, which is why all the relevant arguments need to go into the neutrally-framed "controversy" article and not onto an article dedicated to arguing that one side is "revisionist". Actually, in the PRC-ROK diplomatic talks, China accused South Korea of provoking the controversy when SK scholars started irredentist probes into the "Gando dispute". But speaking of all the illuminating articles that we could create, wouldn't it be interesting to know that in the 2060:. IF CPOV is an issue I'm sure there is a room for that kind of material. A new section on motivation or implications perhaps? It used to have one, but some editor, I wonder whom, deleted it for no reason. An important aspect of NPOV is putting radical and fringe theories rejected by the international academia aside, and giving weight to the mainstream perspective of the subject matter. Whether Parhae and Koguryeo were "Chinese" or "Korean" is a problem already solved, with the consensus defining both states as "Korean". Then again you can always see editors like Shrigley trying to rekindle the flames with disruptive edits like this 2326:

appear at the beginning of the NEP's own publications starting in 2003, so this info is easy to find. From what I've read, these statements emphasize three important themes: (1) the concern that "some neighboring countries" (mostly Korea, actually) are trying to appropriate parts of Chinese territory into their own national histories; (2) an emphasis on the importance of high-quality scholarly research; and (3) the explicit goal of serving political aims. After we present that, we can explain (briefly) why the project has created controversies, and then refer to

194: 429:

things. Goguryeo for the longest time including the Chinese has thought it to be Korean. Kublai Khan considered vassalizing Goryeo the same as Goguryeo, a Ming general was disappointed with Joseon considering to them they're Goguryeo's direct descendants, hell MAO ZEDONG thought the same. Turkiye does as well as Goguryeo and the ancient Turkic Khagnate had good relations until the Tang beat them up and sent them packing to Turkiye. However they still kept in contact with Later Silla, Goryeo, and Joseon considering them the same as Goguryeo.

787:, the Han Chinese have influenced the region to a great extent, and since 1950, we tend to associate the region as "our" region. However, it should be noted that other races have influenced this region to a equal amount of extent, and in this case, the Chosons. Although the present day South Korea possess no territory in Manchuria, they are ethnic Chosons, so it should not be objected that the history of Goguryeo is part of their history also (and they still possess some parts of Goguryeo). ( 508:

should replace the less common term of Turkestan. And 2) East Turkestan Islamic Movement is a well-known terrorist/separatist movement responsible for many terrorist acts throughout Northwestern China, and their goal is to establish a so-called "East Turkestan Republic". To China/Chinese, using the term Turkestan to refer to Xinjiang is equivalent to supporting this succession movement and is comparable, if not more offensive than to call the Province of Quebec the Quebec Republic in Canada.

184: 163: 1829:

articles in the projects would seem rather redundant. "Research in the Northeast Project has claimed Gojoseon, Bueyo, Goguryeo and Balhae as regional governments of the ancient Chinese empire." is an elaboration of the cited material "The Northeast Project consists of research on historical kingdoms, polities and ethnicities in this area, and also modern issues such as territorial disputes and immigration." Therefore, they come from the same source.

1787:

serves the political needs of the central government. We have statements like "this is not only an academic project, it is also an important political task" (它不仅仅是一个学术课题，同时也是一项重要政治任务) and "the academic research we are conducting is not purely academic; it is academic research to serve the interests of the state" (我们所从事的学术研究不是纯粹的学术研究，而是学术研究为国家利益服务). This seems like relevant info, but I'm not sure how to introduce it into the article without doing

2688:) say that the project's budget was 6 billion renminbi, which is ten times higher than the real sum. If our Korean commentators also thought that 亿 means billion, then the NEP's real budget could have been 20亿, which means 2 billion. Some sources (Yoon 2004, p. 118, note 30) say that part of the NEP's budget went toward restoring ancient Koguryo objects. Others speculate that the NEP had a military budget inside it (see also Yoon 2004, p. 118). 1749:

citation for the funding given at 20-million-yuan (2.4 million US dollars) and the dates of 2002 and 2006. In addition notes and notes are duplicates and don't seem tell anything about the Northeast Project - only about the meaning of Zhonghua Minzu which I doubt actually needs a citation. The second half of the opening paragraph goes on to explain what Zhonghua Minzu means. It fails to say what the Northeast Project reported.

320:

Great Wall to extend, can click on the link to see the Great Wall in 2014 entries and compared 2008 entries, Please find the photos of "Map of the Whole Wall Constructions" in the entry of the Great Wall in 2008 and in the entry of the Great Wall in 2014 and compare them, 2008 Great wall entry and 2014 Great wall entry, both the Great Wall entries contain photos of "Map of the Whole Wall Constructions" which need to be looked up

1757:

The line, "many other countries including China." seems to make grand small points. Using the word "countries" and "including China" implies national consensus or government statements which is not shown in the citations. In particular citation uses the words "A Chinese historian" not "China". Instead the wording could be similar to "...many non-Korean people including at least one Chinese historian..."

33: 655:"ancient ethnic groups"? What does Tibet, "Turkestan" (which itself is a highly controversial and provocative term), "historical revisionism," and "Pseudo-history" got to do with this article? This is the opinion of the original author, not a fact. Also, as LordAmeth indicated earlier, this "dispute" on Gaogouli is only one small aspect of the Northeast Project. This article is about the 85: 64: 858:

Sino-South Korean relations or to the Gaogouli article. Lastly, the removal of "Pseudo-history," "Historical Revisionism," "Zhonghua Minzu," "Tibet," and "Turkestan" is a must to comply with Knowledge's policy of NPOV. They have nothing to do with this article and the choice of words clearly exemplifies the POV nature of this article. They must be removed.

2533:, edited by Françoise Nicolas, Routledge, 2007), claims a budget of "three trillion Korean won" (= 2.83 billion US dollars). Unfortunately, neither article cites a source for this information. Anyway, if there are no agreed-upon budget figures, we should present the budget issue in a separate paragraph, probably in the section on "Organization." 2098:, Korean nationalist interpretations rub up against the decades-old scholarship of not only China, but also of Russia? The controversies around Goguryeo and Bohai are related since the primary "Bohai is Korean" argument is, "Bohai's king was a former Goguryeo person". And how about Japan's reaction to the government-created 1594:. This article doesn't have much content on the Northeast Project itself - except for the "list of research topics", which indicates that the Project is much more than the article talks about. Some of the sources cited in this article don't even mention the Northeast Project, but rather just the Goguryeo controversies. Per 736:

do with the article (I have no objections however, to a small section regarding Sino-South Korean disputes, but this clearly is NOT what the Northeast Project is all about). Frankly, what you are doing fits the description of Vandalism as defined by Knowledge, I suggest that you should take your own advice.

3118:

Laugh die me, in the northeast China claims in koguryo is an independent country, has nothing to do with Korean nationality and han nationality, the ruler of the second northeast before four county is han han, but the branch of China's acknowledgement of the koguryo is Korean ancestors, can check 360

2490:

I've converted the footnotes to Harvard format to make them more legible, and I've included many links to the relevant articles. I also tagged most notes for "pages needed" so that the references can be improved further. I've already found three page numbers in Byingtong 2002, and I'm now looking for

2001:

I think whether it's "historical revisionism" should be decided upon by NPOV sources, not Korean nor Chinese. In this case, it would be prudent to look to NPOV sources on Goguryeo and Balhae and see whether they are considered part of Korean history or Chinese history. Any POV that deviates from NPOV

1779:

Thanks for raising all these issues. It's true that the article looks odd in many places. Just a quick note: the "list of research topics" might actually be the titles of books published in the "Northeast Frontier Research Series" ("Dongbei bianjiang yanjiu congshu" 东北边疆研究丛书) of the CASS press. Check

1760:

The line, "The Northeast Project has become a key terminology in South Korea to represent China's historical revisionism and political expansionism, which continues to be widely used well after the Northeast Project was officially concluded in 2007." is grammatically incorrect. In its current form it

1563:

Today I fixed two broken ref links on this article, however one other ref link appears to be broken and I am unable to source the new page for that content. See reference 6. "项目介绍 (Topic Overview)" (in Chinese). Centre of China's Borderland History and Geography Research, CASS. 2007-07-04. Retrieved

1265:

The PRC's revision of Goguryeo history, in an attempt to recharacterize it as a Chinese provincial state rather than an independent Korean kingdom, has received international criticism for making a flawed and politically motivated rewriting of history. Such criticisms came from numerous scholars from

1099:

Its interesting how Cydevil retorts my edits as "vandalism," considering that none of his "additions" have anything to do with the subject at hand. Its even funnier seeing how he assumes moral superiority by advocating his stance against "vandalism" and the supposed edits of "good faith." I'd take it

960:

We strongly recommend private mediation. To request an account on the private Mediation Wiki, please click on the mail link in my signature. Include "Goguryeo" somewhere in the subject, e.g. "Private wiki account request for Goguryeo mediation". If you do not have email enabled on your account and

735:

The "information" you keep reverting to (whether they be sourced or not) has NOTHING to do with the Northeast Project. Can you even read Chinese? The link I just provided comes directly from the NEP official website. I have made my point clear and I will continue to remove content that has nothing to

688:

That's just absurd. A third-rate Tang tributary such as Gaogouli certainly does not command the same type of influence as any of the mainstream Chinese dynasties. There is no such thing as a "One country, one people" policy. Zhonghua Minzu is not a "PRC government" policy, its modern derivative could

2089:

This is the ultimate problem of framing the article as "Northeast Project" rather than "Goguryeo controversies". Because, if we worked on the latter article and merged "Northeast Project" into it, we could cite the views of Sun Jinji and the like without running into the primary source problem. What

1342:

In keeping with the politically sensitive intellectual milieu of the time, Jin opens his work with the declaration that the history of the Northeast is nothing more than one part of the history of China (guoshi) (1:2A). He maintains that the basic element of history is the nationality (minzu) rather

1116:

He found this through Google searching my Knowledge username. And in case you're wondering Cydevil, allow me to make this clear for you: I don't know you and you sure as hell don't know who I am. Perhaps you need to learn to practice what you preach and assume good faith. In any case - IIRC - I have

903:

The way I understand it, NE project is a simple effort to study history of what constitutes present-day NE China, and its people, broadly termed "Zhonghua Minzu", which encompass all Chinese citizens (inc. Korean Chinese), SO LONG AS they remain Chinese citizens. It's in fact the Koreans who took it

714:

The information you have deleted has much sources that are from various sources and they are not POV. Also, you are wrong about the international community. How can what the international community be POV? It would be if it disagrees with China, but most of the sources agree about the information on

466:

A fine start, and a rather interesting and important topic. Though, I do think it should be fleshed out to better represent that this Korea/Goguryeo thing is only one aspect of the impact of the project. I think a longer, more thorough main section about the project should come before discussions of

428:

I am not a Korean nationalist I am from North America. I like learning all of East Asia. I think China has an amazing history, is the reason for many of Japan and Korea's modern very well known attributes like their distinct yet familiar architecture and clothes. However Goguryeo is not one of those

307:

This is the directory of Book of Wei, click on the chapter title to read it）So, who are the thieves?Is it the author of Book of wei?Doesn't the entry of Dangun entry and story that Dangun history cited the book of Wei ?Excuse me, why is this?How does the Wei book not have this paragraph?The Koreans,

2902:

I concur with your translation. It looks like Chua Pei Jun Jermaine miss translated the the same source. He seems to have taken 万 to mean thousand when it should be ten thousand and he has confused the amount from each province and the annual equivalent. I also agree that a masters thesis isn't the

1863:

I've looked into this matter "countries" again, and I don't think this is a problem. The point of it is that academic experts on Goguryeo, regardless of nationality, are critical of China's historical revisionism, and one of them includes an academic expert in China. This does not mean countries at

1818:

Introduction/Background - I have linked an article(Korean) that attests to the fact that the Northeast Project was a government project, with specific budget figures. Byington's work well explains the ideological background and the historical discourse that lead to the of the Northeast Project, and

1602:

from Goguryeo controversies, created to suggest that the Chinese government endorses a particular view in the controversies, when this seems to be unclear, or even opposite to the truth (for example, China has agreed in 2004 to censor the view that Goguryeo was solely Chinese from its textbooks, in

1236:

This project applied Zhonghua Minzu, an ideology started in the 1980s, to ancient ethnic groups, states and history of the region of Manchuria and northern Korea. Under the Zhonghua Minzu ideology, it is assumed that there was a greater Chinese state in the ancient past. Accordingly, any pre-modern

1050:

Nlu, I feel deeply insulted. I've been abiding by the 3RR rule, and I've been reverting blatant vandalism, not edits made in good faith. And it's funny you only accuse me of "edit warring", when Goodfriend has been also engaging in similar behavior - reverting vandalism. Also, the Northeast Project

1020:

is disputed into the article. I'm going to probably unprotect tonight, to see if parties have sufficiently calmed down. Resumption of edit warring will draw 3RR blocks, and particularly since these parties have been guilty of doing this previously, they will be blocked a particularly long time if

319:

is the Great Wall of Jin and Liao Dynasties，The Great Wall of the Jin Dynasty and the Great Wall of the Liao Dynasty were clearly identified in the 2008 Knowledge entry on the Great Wall， And in the history of China, there are many dynasties built the Great Wall.The Chinese government is not on the

303:

2.Moreover, the Northeast Project thought that the Goguryeo rulers had nothing to do with the Goryeo dynasty, but admitted that the Goguryeo were not Han and that the ethnic integration of the Goguryeo branches was related to Korea. It did not deny that the Koguryeo provided the genes for Korea but

2806:

I found first-hand confirmation for the 15 million budget, so that's not a problem. I suspect the "20 billion yuan" we see everywhere confuses the Northeast Project with the entirely different Northeast Development Project, which is a government-sponsored investment program designed to develop the

2172:

It was not until the 1980s that minority’s rights were guaranteed and protected by law and their place in the state clearly defined. The PRC constitution of 1982 describes the state as a “unitary multinational state built up jointly by the people of all its nationalities,” and guarantees the equal

1756:

In the section "Reactions" the line, "The Northeast Project's historical revisionism on historical Korean kingdoms" is not neutral. Term "historical Korean kingdoms" is Korean ethnocentrism. Neutral dispassionate language must be used that respects the opinions of both Koreans and Chinese equally.

1752:

The who sections entitled, "Historical Revisionism" is opinion not fact. The two citations given do not back up the claims made about a large body of research. The term "These projects" is not defined. What projects, what research exactly. What did they publish. The line "Research in the Northeast

1088:

Nlu, if the mentioning of Tibet, "Turkestan," (I think you know quite well the reasons behind the use of this term), "Zhonghua Minzu," "pseudo-history" and "historical revisionism" is not POV, then I don't know what is. The complete neglect of Chinese sources is something to be taken account of as

930:

Since PRC is trying to claim the entire cradle of Northern Asian civilization as Chinese civilization, PRC started this ridiculous project to aim to claim much NE Asian history as possible, in order to acheieve this China need to claim on ancient Korean past thus this controversial discussion came

507:

And about the use of the term Turkestan... This is a very sensitive issue, especially for Chinese. The name Xinjiang should be used instead of Turkestan because 1) it is recognized by individuals and governments world-wide to refer to northwest China, both geographically and politically, therefore

1828:

Historical Revisionism - Indeed, claims of historical revisionism is made on a large body of research. This large body of research is a consistent group of research that applies ideology to revision history, and therefore I thought they can be generalized in this context. Explaining every journal

1786:

As for government support, I added a new section called "Organization" with some relevant info. The CASS is directly connected to the central government, but it seems that in this case the project started in Jilin province. Still, many contributors to the Project state that their research aims to

1170:

It is vandalism without general consensus and discussion at the talk page. You have no specific reason as to why the information should be deleted. You simply say that Goguryeo has nothing to do with the Northeast Project without any sources. There are sources that say how Chinese historians went

1111:

Someone just accused me as a sockpuppet of Nlu. I guess I've been making too many compromises? Anyways, Nlu is a miserable failure as an admin. He has only been exacerbating the problem, not improving it. By being CPOV himself, too much consideration is being given to the opinion of CPOV editors,

1060:

And do have in mind, Assault11 was deleting most of the article's contents, not just the "See Also" links. I just didn't feel any need to respond to such blatant vandalism except simply reverting them, though I did add a source attesting to the existence of the Southwest Project and the Northwest

2828:

at the National University of Signapore says 'The biggest sponsor of this project was the Ministry of Finance, which provided one million Yuan under special project funds; CASS provided 250,000 Yuan and the special projects funds of Heilongjiang, Jilin and Liaoning provincial government provided

2115:

As for the question of whether Goguryeo was "Korean" or "Chinese", those who have seriously considered the issue, rather than simply piled up arguments in order to fashion a predetermined conclusion, have serious problems with denying the regime a "Chinese" pedigree. I have seen in more than two

1271:

The Northeast Project is not universally accepted in the PRC. In 2006, a senior scholar from Peking University affirmed Goguryeo as a part of Korean history and denied Chinese connections. He has expressed disagreement with the CASS institute, the PRC government institution running the Northeast

503:

Personally, I think this article is wayyyyy... to subjective. Just take a look at the references: NOT A SINGLE CHINESE SOURCE. It seems that the author is refusing to use Chinese sources (deliberately or not, I do not know) to present only ONE SIDE of this extremely controversial topic. And I've

481:

can any knowledgeable people please revised this. this is sooooo subjective all sources led to shady korean article wrote by korean. suprising!!. all i know its always hard to pin point ancient ancient civilization because it's simply not korean or chinese yet! but the korean seems to completely

278:

1.As mentioned below, the Hongshan culture and other so called "Korean culture", but the Hongshan culture gene test results are N1, O2 (originally called O3), C, not the South Korean O1B2.However, the part of the N1 gene in the "Hongshan Culture" Knowledge entry had been changed to read "N1 is a

2325:

So I propose we reshape this NEP wiki as follows: we first present the project in the language of its own promoters, being careful not to pick only passages that support what we personally think of the NEP. No promotion, no refutation. Programmatic statements by Chinese scholars and politicians

2311:

I'm not saying that the NEP is like the IDEA Center or "creation science." I'm saying that if wacko theories like creation science and fringe groups like the IDEA Center can get neutrally worded articles, then the NEP can definitely get one too! What also attracted my attention is that the main

2180:

The problem, of course, lies in the insistence on conceiving of ancient China, characterized by a soft, graded, and fluid periphery, in terms of a modern multi-nation-state with a rigid, sharp, and permanent periphery. Another way of expressing this ill fit is to describe it as imposing the new

2176:

Such arguments do not hold up well under scrutiny. Zhang apparently introduced the notion of nationalities spread across state borders in order to justify the exclusion of Paekche from the Chinese nation even though it had sprung from the same nationality as had Koguryo. But if the criteria for

1748:

In the opening paragraph it says "project launched by the Chinese government". We need a reference that this project was launched by the government and not lower down the chain of authority. We also need a citation that it was really conducted by the Chinese Academy of Social Science. We need a

907:

Goguryeo, along with a number of other states, has always been considered a tributary state by the Chinese emperors, no matter what dynasty we are referring to, and with good reason. Plus, a large part of Goguryeo does contribute to the genetic pool of modern Chinese NE. It's understandable why

654:

all about Gaogouli. 2) No, its not what its "all about." The Northeast Project focuses on various aspects of Northeast China (e.g. archaeology, minorities, etc.) not limited to Gaogouli. 3) Very well then. Please explain to me how exactly this project applies the "ideology of Zhonghua Minzu" to

857:

form the basis of the Northeast Project as a whole - which seems to be the case with your reverts. This dispute should be limited to only a section long (since most of the content is merely a rehash of the Gaogouli article) briefly explaining the dispute, the rest should either be relocated to

345:

This is just China and Japan found evidence that Korea stole history, South Korea dissatisfaction and rumour, warning South Koreans: do not think that after deleting your web page we can not find the original content, please remember there is a thing called the original content of the web page

1543:

I added a request for a reference citation on the figures for funding. Also what is the source of the funding. The article seams to be saying that this Northeast Project is closely connected with the Chinese government and government policy, however, it rather seems to be just a collection of

1181:

We have discussed this already. I have provided a link to the official NEP website and stated time and again that the Gaogouli dispute does not represent the entire Northeast Project. If you can read Chinese, please verify it, if not, don't reply. I have no interest in arguing over semantics.

1853:

that Koreanness of Goguryeo is not equal to Chineseness. There is a predominance of sources that refer to Goguryeo as a Korean kingdom and of Korean history, with very little connections to China. As for your concern for "countries", I will make the appropriate edit that you may address your

1215:

That's a good idea. However, Goodfriend integrated the background section into Goguryeo controversies, a part of which I believe has more relevance in the general background of the subject than on Goguryeo specifically. Well, we can't edit the article right now anyways so lets wait unil it's

298:

This just shows that before the Northeast Project,Korean people think Hongshan culture is Korean culture. Otherwise, how could they consider Hongshan culture as their own?They may not even know about the Liaohe region (Liaodong Peninsula) and the Longshan culture from the Yellow River region

1973:

calls this "revisionism" rather than just present the whole project as revisionist as if this were a pure fact. The Chinese source I've consulted actually accuse "a minority of Korean scholars" and the government of both Koreas of "historical revisionism" when they consider Bohai/Parhae and

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Your info you gave is very interesting. It's just not Goguryeo since the Hongshan and them to most historians outside of China are not the same. I say this in goodwill because I do respect China and its very rich history. But I also respect Korea and its rich (yet not well known) history.

931:

about. Even with world scholars condemnation, China still continue with this project however China too realize this is too much handle seem that they could become laughing stock of the century, China decided to hold on until they become superpower. Korsentry 05:21, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

1421:

I have no problems with mentioning the application of "Zhonghua Minzu," but this coming from the same source that tries to make a connection between the Dongbei Gongcheng and Tibet and "Turkestan" (completely irrelevant) clearly violates the NPOV policy of Knowledge. I have yet to see a

1653:, which is a list of research topics. To write an independent article about a subject, we need to have sources that deal with only this subject, or at least deal with it in depth, which we don't for the specific CASS research with that name. As this article is redundant, it is merged. 1151:

I said no such thing. My reply was only directed at your suggestion of imposing 3RR blocks, which is something I have not violated. I admit that my past behavior was not up to par with Knowledge's standards, and to this, I stand corrected. However, I still consider my past reverts -

432:

There's even evidence that Goguryeo, Baekje, and Silla shared the same language and their cultures were noted by the Chinese to be so similar they also called them Samhan later on since there wasn't really a need to differiate them if they're weren't dealing with them individually.

770:, as it is rather inappropriate because we are all here to improve the article. Although we disagree each other because of our own point of view, but we should recognize that nobody is truly wrong; we are all right in our own aspect, but we need to find the balance between them. 673:

Yes, I agree. Goguryeo takes up the majority of what the Chinese historians are studying on. The PRC government has adopted a policy of "one country, one people" to assert claims over various ethnic groups living in China and they centered themselves as the center of the "one".

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other countries such as the United States, Russia, Mongolia, and Australia, including prominent Goguryeo experts such as Mark Byington of Harvard University Korea Institute, and R. Sh. Djarylgashinova of Russian Academy of Science Institute of Archaeology and Ethnography.

2790:

The Korean source I cited discusses the budget figure in some detail. Various figures were given, including the alleged 20 billion yuan budget given in a news paper article, but it was discarded due to insufficient evidence and the figure of 15 million yuan was chosen.

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dismiss it as anything else than korean which is false, biggoted, and ignorant. the chinese on the other hand is comprised of almost 57 ethnic groups, the han chinese itself are essentially mixed ethnic group that forget where they are from and just called them han

1974:

Koguryo/Gaogouli as part of Korean territory in ancient times. We need to explain this controversy. As things are right now, we mostly have Korean criticism of the project, without an explanation of the project from the Chinese side. We're facing some kind of

1199:

Would it be better if we merge most of the information that talk about the Goguryeo Controversy, text book incidents and its history etc. to this page, and just briefly mention about it here in the Northeast Project page? I think it would satisfy both sides.

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The article covers the background , contents and its ramifications, and possbility in the future current status of the project. This article has respectable counterparts in diffrrent languages, attesting to the validity of the topic and its significance..

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Source is in Korean, thus unverifiable. The use of the term "Turkestan" is highly controversial and POV, especially when this is coming from a Korean article trying to make a connection between this dispute and Tibet/Xinjiang (completely irrelevant topics).

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published by the Northeast Asian History Foundation. While you're at it, please make sure you make mention of the diversity of its editorial board, which includes scholars from Korea, Mongolia, the United States, Russia, Australia, Germany and Japan.

1632:

Agree. This page contains little info about the Northeast Project itself. The topic may be as a controversy in Korea, however it is not actually proven by the current article, that the Northeast Project even exists outside of the Korean media hype.

1051:

fits every meaning of the term "historical revisionism", so why did you delete that link? Tibet and Turkistan are also relevant links, as China's been doing the same to those regions. This article has much potential for expansion, but not deletion.

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Nowhere does the NEP website mention anything about the application of Zhonghua Minzu in this project. The opinion piece/editorial (your source) does not state this as a fact (it doesn't even mention "Zhonghua Minzu" directly), but an assumption.

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impact or controversy. right? (BTW, I recognize of course that this is a work in progress, and I don't mean to criticize that you have to get on it right now. Just, for later editors who come by and look to see what needs doing or whatever...)

826:

And its quite unfortunate of you to say that what I'm doing is vandalism. Are you accusing me because you don't like the information on there? Goguryeo is part of the Northeast Project. Several sources mention the project with Goguryeo.

2856:

Thanks for finding this this. I don't know if it can be considered a reliable source (because it's only an M.A. Thesis), but it does contain lots of interesting and relevant information. The budget source it cites has now been moved to

2254:. But here, the article is about the NEP itself, so we need more statements about the NEP, and fewer about Koguryo and Parhae. And this is where we face a problem: if we use only secondary sources, the NEP has no voice in this matter. 2373:

Second issue: could someone add the Korean original to the translated article titles (those by Kim Ji Hoon, Seo Gilsu, Park Yangjin, and maybe more)? Otherwise there's no way to find these articles, even for people who read Korean!

2052:. Articles on the Northeast Project almost always deals with a radical shift in historiography in China. Historical studies of Balhae and Goguryeo aren't really relevant here. They have their own articles. This article is about the 2393:

I'm not sure about specifying page numbers for journal articles. I believe it is customary not to cite specific pages for journal articles. I'll add the Korean original names to the translated names. Your title translation for the

1648:

Ok, there has been enough time for discussion among interested parties. Rincewind42, thank you for your reasoned argument. Cydevil38, you do not address the main argument, which is that this page is not about the Northeast Project

2377:

Finally, could someone translate the title that is given only in Korean? My translation for "중국 동북공정에 앞서 '서남공정'은 어떻게" is "What was the “Southeast Project” that preceded the Chinese Northeast Project?" Is that correct? Thank you!

2616: 2526: 1405:. I am assuming the above excerpt refers to Jin Yufu - a historian with no connections to the Northeast Project. And judging from your last few edits on the article, the source you referred to comes from this Korean article 1753:

Project has claimed Gojoseon, Bueyo, Goguryeo and Balhae as regional governments of the ancient Chinese empire." is without citation. Just what has the Northeast Project published. Links to papers in journals for example.

1617:

I disagree. Northeast Project is an important topic that is still discussed widely in both the academia and the media. Even in the past couple of days(Sept. 6th and 5th), there were numerous articles mentioning the word.

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economy of the region. Cydevil38: could you translate or paraphrase what your source (Kim 2007) says about the 20 billion yuan figure lacking evidence? That would be a helpful addition to the budget paragraph. Thanks!

2468:. Otherwise it looks like we're saying, "this info appears in this 30-page article: you go find where!" So it would be great if you could add the page numbers if you have access to the articles concerned. Thank you! 632:

The Korean and Chinese arguments section should definitely kept in this article. Isn't that what the Northeast Project is all about? challenging the history of Korea and challenging Goguryeo's conventional position?

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Also, most of the international community agrees that the PRC's claim on Goguryeo is an attempt on historical revisionism. Its not simply a project to study the history of northeastern China and its artifacts, etc.

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It's possible that Korean commentators misread the numbers. The Qing History Project (清史纂修工程) that also started in 2002 had a highly publicized budget of 600 million (六亿) yuan, but serious English-language sources

1517:

I have attempted to discuss, but Cydevil38 repeatedly ignored my questions I have asked (refer above). Instead, he kept insisting on his sources even when the accuracy and neutrality of them are being called into

780:, which includes Goguryeo. This should be a known fact and should not have any objections, and the coverage on the Goguryeo issues in the background section should not be grounded to deletion, but modification. 523:

to do with the so-called "Northeast Project" at all. Just a brief skim-through of the Northeast Project's official website indicates nothing about the article's assertions regarding "Zhonghua Minzu" and/or other

1884:

Key terminology - Later on, I'll expand upon this part to explain how the Northeast Project has come to define various aspects of China's historical revisionism and political expansionism with specific cases.

808:

because Goguryeo is studied as part of the Northeast Project to be scientifically proven that it is Chinese. Goguryeo IS part of the Northeast Project THEREFORE information about the dispute should be added.

2365:

Could I ask people who have access to the sources cited in the footnotes to indicate the exact page number for each piece of info that is referenced? Right now all we have is a range of pages. According to

886:

It mentions it as the "one people, one country" policy, which is basically what the Zhonghua Minzu is. The information is relevant and I already said to add more information about the article as you like.

2294:), the lede only claims that "Creation science has been characterized as a pseudo-scientific attempt to map the Bible into scientific facts." And there is no mention of "pseudo-science" in the wiki on the 336:

Secondly, in the news of China Intranet in 2006, there was a mention of the Jin Dynasty Great Wall （Jin dynasty border trenches）,Han Dynasty Great Wall was greatly damaged，2006 Chinese great wall new

711:

Instead of deleting entire section without discussion, which is vandalism, maybe you should add more information about the Northeast project in general instead of deleting information about Goguryeo.

1290:

P.S. I would assume that the Korean editors here have already reviewed various articles directly from the Northeast Project. It would be greatly appreciated if you could share some of these. Thanks.

1690:

This matter has been brought to attention in the Korean Wikiproject, and I ask other editors to cease and desist from vandalizing this article until proper discussions are conducted on this matter.

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Also, I have removed the mention of "historical revisionism," on the grounds that it violates the NPOV policy of Knowledge. You have been previously warned by an administrator to stop POV-pushing

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The source does not mention the term "Zhonghua Minzu" directly. Since the official NEP website does not mention anything about the application of Zhonghua Minzu, this is not treated as a fact.

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According to Chinese Encyclopedia 360, Goguryo was not kinship to the rulers of the Goryeo Dynasty (The ruler of Goguryo had the surname Gao, while the ruler of Goryeo had the surname Wang.).

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Finally, the link to turkestan and tibet is TOTALLY unecessary, what does it have to do with the Northeast Project (unless the "Northwest" and "Southwest" projects mentioned actually EXIST).

339:.And in a 2009 news report about it, it said that the early Great Wall (The Great Wall other than the Ming Wall) could not be repaired (because it was too damaged)2009 Chinese great wall New 2102:? Should these red links become blue, it will be untenable to argue that the South Korean government is not involved in the same measure, if not more so, than the Chinese in these disputes. 1104: 607:. Its a mere rehash of the non-sense from the Gaogouli article (which is in dispute). The prime focus of this article (as the title suggests) should be about the Northeast Project itself - 2666:(2004) says that the NEP's budget was "20 billion yuan (some 3 trillion Korean won)". I have no idea where he or the person he's citing got that figure, though. 20 billion should be 200亿. 1129:

In light of the parties' apparent inability to see how their behavior is inappropriate, unprotection won't happen for now. I'll leave unprotection in the discretion of the mediators. --

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therefore relevant. Zhonghua Minzu, or the multi-ethnic unitary state, is an ideology that has lead to the Northeast Project, and therefore explaining it as the background is necessary.

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Good friend100, if you bothered to read my replies correctly, you'd see that we are in agreement with regards to the Sino-South Korean dispute over Gaogouli. However, this dispute does

2632:

A better idea might be had of which buget figure is correct by clarifying just what the project did. Was there field work involved? How many staff? Names of those leading the project?

2569:, or CASS) is dated 28 February 2002, the date of the first organizational meeting of the NEP. It states that the budget of the Northeast Project will come from three sources: (1) the 2248:

An important aspect of NPOV is putting radical and fringe theories rejected by the international academia aside, and giving weight to the mainstream perspective of the subject matter

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Hi Cydevil38. I agree with the spirit of your post (prudence and looking for NPOV sources without relying on sources from either side), but I think your proposal risks falling into

2515:

One source cited in the lede says that the project's budget was 15 million yuan, or 2.4 million US dollars. This sounds like nothing for a project of this scope. An article titled

1327:

You source does not support your claim. Where does it even mention Zhonghua Minzu? It doesn't. I ask you once more, are you going to address the points I have made above or not?

2269:...which is why all the relevant arguments need to go into the neutrally-framed "controversy" article and not onto an article dedicated to arguing that one side is "revisionist" 721:

If you can speak Chinese, then you have much more access to sources about the Northeast Project in Chinese sites. Or you can research and add more information to this article.

1905:

List of Research Topics - Actually, there is an official website on the Northeast Project, but it seems to be in relatively flux. I'll try to get a fixed website linked ASAP.

1761:

says that political expansionism continues to be used widely - which is clearly not what was meant. In addition it is opinion. Continues to be used how, where and by whome?

1358:. Please provide the URL of your "referred source," assuming its from an online source. It does not appear in the paragraph dealing with the application of Zhonghua Minzu: 3233: 1791:, because these statements appear in publications by the Northeast Project (technically primary sources) rather than on secondary studies thereof. Any advice is welcome! 1475:

I have added a section on topic overview, retrieved from the official site in Chinese. Hopefully we can remove some unnecessary POV talk and Goguryo controversy now.

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this is my main rationale behind my past reverts. And yes, the Northeast Project (as its name suggests) is primarily focused on the study of Northeast China in general

2231:

Actually, in the PRC-ROK diplomatic talks, China accused South Korea of provoking the controversy when SK scholars started irredentist probes into the "Gando dispute"

2826: 756:(or the insertions regarding Tibet, Xinjiang, Pseudo-history, Historical Revisionism for that matter - all of whom are heavily laced with sinophobic connotations). 3127:

Read this page while researching Balhae. Immediately checked the Talk, because of its obviously fake claims. I see it was removed many years ago. Who let it back?

1931:

Northwest Project(西北工程), which is a comprehensive project on history and geography of Xinjiang and Uighur peoples started along with the Northeast Project in 2002.

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for more details. If a number of sources have called the NEP revisionist, then the lede can say "a number of scholars have called the NEP revisionist because..."

1360:

This project applied Zhonghua Minzu, an ideology started in the 1980s, to ancient ethnic groups, states and history of the region of Manchuria and northern Korea.

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Spare me the ad hominem attacks. I read everything up until the point you changed your source. The paragraph you have provided does not refer to the Northeast

2233:. This would sound like relevant information to include in the article. Could you find a source for this claim somewhere that links these matters to the NEP? 3378: 3363: 3130:

Sources cited are ridiculous even in that they are Korean only. I checked one, #5, China’s Northeast Project: Defensive or Offensive Strategy? (p. 103).

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article, because I don't read Korean. Very high budget figures appear in earlier sources than these two 2007 articles. Page 118 of Yoon Hwy-tak's article

1021:

they resume the behavior. Please watch yourselves. (For reference for any admins who might take a look here -- for Cydevil38's former edit history, see

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Heilongjiang, Jilin, and Liaoning provincial governments: 3.75 million, or 250,000 per province every year (黑龙江省委、吉林省委、辽宁省委共同筹措的专项经费共计375万元，各省每年拨付25万元).

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made before the lock, just about 3/4 of the entire page was copy/pasted from other articles with no explanation on what the Northeast Project is about.

1603:

order to please South Korea's government). The actual content on the Northeast Project could fit into a section of the Goguryeo controversies article.

504:

never heard (I've been researching too) of any Northwest Project or Southwest Project being carried out anywhere...(notice the lack of reference?).

1237:

people or states that occupied any part of what is now the People's Republic of China are defined as having been part of that greater Chinese state.

921:)/northern heritage. Makes them seem more "exotic" to the locals I guess. Even the Chinese government aren't bold enough to claim Goguryeo lineage. 103: 2965: 1367:

Also, it does not seem that that the author is referring directly to the Northeast Project (Dongbei Gongcheng, not to be confused with the region)

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Look, I don't care what the "international community" thinks (which is your POV). It has nothing to do with this article. Like I said earlier,

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conducted by the user in question. And this is not even mentioning the most blatant provocation - the complete disregard for Chinese sources.

2903:

best source but it does beat blogs and new reports, largely because he does give sources for everything giving us leads to follow and check.

2525:'s English-language website claims that the project cost "an astounding 20 billion yuan" (= 3.21 billion US dollars). Another article titled 2829:

375,000 Yuan in total.' and it gives it's source to be '“Dongbei bianjiang lishi yu xianzhuang yanjiu gongcheng jingfei guanli fangfa”, <

2862:. It's the same document I cited above. Unfortunately the author of the thesis got it completely wrong. The actual figures are as follows: 1676: 3171:

Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a

3139:

Suggest removal. I'm not biased, I'm Russian living on top of Balhae ruins in Russia, Chinese nationalism is not in my interests at all.

2769:

These may not all be reliable sources, but at least we have a few clues about what the project may have been apart from history writing.

1246:

Similar projects have been conducted on Tibet and Turkestan, which have been named Southwest Project and Northwest Project, respectively.

904:

in the wrong way. The fact that it's funded by the Chinese government means nothing. All research projects are funded by the government.

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are unable to use the mail link, please click on my username in my signature and let me know on my talk page. You should also read the

890:

You are simply accusing historical revisionism, tibet, turkestan, etc to be POV. What is your reasoning for that? The claim on Goguryeo

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Korean gene" and later changed back by someone else,and correct. Then an enthusiastic German user changed O2 back to its old name (O3).

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You cannot simply delete information because you think its POV. Most of the points are sourced. Its vandalism and you will be warned.

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I've presented the three figures in a short paragraph in the "Organization" section and removed the low budget figure from the lede.

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As for sources they're all on this wikipedia I just don't know how to cite sources since I don't do stuff like editing or replying.

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the Northeast Project believed that it was a minority ethnic group in ancient China.There is no mention of Dangun in the Book of wei（

2565:

I downloaded from the website of the "Research Center for Chinese Borderland History and Geography" 中国边疆史地研究中心 (affiliated with the

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I don't think Kim Taeho's article ("China's ascendancy") has a Korean original, and I'm not sure how to find the original for the

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Now back to historical revisionism and neutrality. The religious movement called "creation science" has no scientific credibility

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I have replaced sources where necessary(plenty of where they come from) to address issues on Byington's work. As for Background,

1705:

It's funny and interesting how you've only seeked to beg for help from one side, as opposed to notifying all relevant sides, per

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Vandalism is any addition, removal, or change of content made in a deliberate attempt to compromise the integrity of Knowledge.

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but,Chinese Encyclopedia 360 says that some of the refugees from Goguryo entered the Goryeo dynasty and integrated with its.

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

3316: 3300: 3229: 2825:'The making of china’s koguryo: political motivations and cultural strategies in the borderlands' by Chua Pei Jun Jermaine 1032: 3225: 777:

is puzzling. The Northeast Project is a study of the general history of the region in the present day northeastern China

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how is the Goguryeo dispute not related to the Northeast Project? Also, isn't the Northeast Project all about Goguryeo?

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to one position because most secondary studies are critical and written by Koreans. Once again, any advice is welcome!

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Oh, and just to make sure: were the articles by Yoon Hwy-tak and Pankaj Mohan originally published in Korea as well?

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more in Gries 2005. This is taking a while, but the article will look better as a result. Any help is appreciated!

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is the IDEA Center's own website, which includes the center's mission statement, their religious affiliations, etc.

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I think this wiki on the NEP can legitimately exist, but I agree it shouldn't be set up as a refutation of the NEP.

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related articles on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join

2343:(making merging unnecessary) and solve this article's neutrality problem at the same time. What do you all think? 2091: 1287:

These were the reasons behind my recent edits on this article, if you have any further questions, please discuss.

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Thanks for the sources, Cydevil! All we're missing now is the original name of the journals where they appeared (

2250:. I quite agree with that. This is why we wouldn't present the Northeast Project's claims as fact in the wiki on 1355:

The source in question does not contain the excerpt from above, instead its the editorial from Asia Times Online

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to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the

1501:

I protected this article. Both involved parties ought to know by now that the edit warring won't help anything.

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however, claim that Dangun ruled Manchuria, but it has already been proved that Dangun was a fabricated figure,

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Koreans wants to deny some of the more embarrassing historical facts though (the same way everyone else does).

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3.In this article, it was claimed that China extended the Great Wall to Heilongjiang Province in 2012, But the

2099: 1680: 1371:, rather the work of one historian. Can you provide the full name of "Jin" (Yufu?) - if possible, in Chinese? 32: 3144: 2612: 2516: 966: 3249: 2749:

The Center has a ridiculously large budget that covers costs for preserving relics and relocating residents.

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The claims on page 103 of this "research" article are backed by nothing. Citations don't back them at all.

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China’s Nationalist Historiography of the “Northeast Project” and the Australian Response to Its Challenges

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even mistook the enormous budget for the whole project as that of history writing. This is sheer nonsense.

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even clearly disruptive ones such as Assault11. My opnion is that let them have their way. Let it blow up.

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If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with

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In addition, several references point to Korea or Chinese language websites without translation. As per

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Project, and indirectly criticized the project on behalf of the Peking University Department of History.

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Hi again! There are a lot of issues to go through. I'll try to address a few, and I'll try to be brief.

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They have nothing to do with the topic (e.g. The "Background" information on the Northeast project has

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focused on this part, as if the entire project is about rewriting the history of Northeast Asia. They

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Your sources do not support your claims (e.g. Zhonghua Minzu). Address the points I have made above.

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Umm this article is supposed to have a background info because its supposed to explain to the reader

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It is not original research. Many of the points on each side has a source. If this article and the

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after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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an English translation of the relevant section of the source should be included in the reference.

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not violated the 3RR policy with my reverts, if there's any further problems, please let me know.

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before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template

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As for journal articles, I'm not sure what's customary, but citing page numbers would seem like

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still manages to be neutral. Instead of calling the movement "pseudo-science" (or its promoters

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Finally, the section, "List of Research Topics" is referenced by note but this link is broken.

1709:. It's also quite interesting on how you've pretty much begged the question with loaded lexicon 1406: 3081: 1012:). I won't do that at the moment, but I am protecting the article in the alternative. Please 3271: 3224:", but what about the other article about the Italian political party? Could that be renamed " 3221: 3023:

https://web.archive.org/20081016223934/http://chinaborderland.cass.cn:80/show_News.asp?id=1837

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photos of"Map of the Whole Wall Constructions"In the second photo on the left of the article.

293: 288: 283: 183: 162: 2834:, 28 February 2002. Accessed on 29 March 2010.' however that source seems to be offline now. 2593:. This must be the source of the claim that the whole project had a budget of 15 million yuan 326:

photos of"Map of the Whole Wall Constructions"In the fifth photo on the left of the article.

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Due to its claims on Gojoseon, Goguryeo and Balhae, the project sparked disputes with Korea.

767: 342:.According to the Book of Liao, built the Liao dynasty Great Wall：《辽史》载：太祖二年冬十月“筑长城于镇东海口” 3088: 337: 3279: 3012: 1983: 1281: 783:

I'm ethnic Chinese, so I understand Assault11's point of view. Since the establishment of

340: 282:

Among them, a lot of Chinese and Mongols have N1, O2 (formerly known as O3), and C genes.

1928:

Historical revision of Tibet was done under the name of Southwest Project (西南工程) in 1986.

917:

Funny you bring that up. I hear it is quite popular for Chinese youths to claim Korean (

3047:, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by 3026: 2951: 2830: 2792: 2573:(财政部); (2) the CASS itself; and (3) the provincial committee of the Communist Party of 2465: 2424: 2399: 2398:

Project would be adequate, but it would be more accurate to replace "What" with "How".

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If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with

2939: 766:

I am not mediating, but I would like to ask both sides to refrain from using the word

383: 3357: 2877: 2808: 2770: 2715:, and the comprehensive project focusing on improving social overhead capital (SOC), 2598: 2549: 2534: 2492: 2469: 2379: 2344: 2201: 2117: 2025: 1987: 1792: 1654: 1604: 1134: 1040: 3234:

Serial Research Project on the History and Current State of the Northeast Borderland

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by Park Kyeong-chul - International Journal of Korean History Vol.6, 2004. (paywall)

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that he wasn't expecting any opposition with his choice of words (e.g. Turkestan).

316: 199: 1384:

If you even bothered reading the article, you'd know what the referred source is.

1524:

Also, it has been recently confirmed by Checkuser that Cydevil38 is a sockpuppet

1299:

References have been given, and Knowledge allows verifiable non-English sources.

804:

I don't understand why I need to repeat myself so many times. The information is

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A few other finds: a retired Korean historian said this about the NEP's budget:

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This page is little more than an attack on China by South Korean nationalists.

2865:

Ministry of Finance: 10 million, or 2 million a year (财政部专项经费1000万元，每年拨付200万元);

2589:

was supposed to be 15 million yuan (split between the three sources of funding)

1528:. Nevermind, it has been shown to be unlikely. Proceeding with the discussion. 3053:. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than 2957: 817:

Again, if you think there are no information about the project, then add more.

312: 189: 2929:

I managed to dig up a few more sources that might be useful on this article.

784: 2663: 515:

Agreed. I just removed a whole bunch of gibberish/copy-pasted content (see

2958:

History as a Strategic Weapon The Korean and Chinese Struggle over Koguryo

2578: 2251: 2057: 1850: 1130: 1036: 918: 774: 637: 516: 3220:– The article about the PRC's research project could simply be renamed " 3009:

after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add

1849:

Reactions - It has been discussed extensively to an uneasy consensus at

984:

The current edit warring is inappropriate. I was tempted to block both

894:

historical revisionism, as seen by most of the international community.

612: 525: 1978:, here: either we use the NEP's own publications and risk falling into 1713:(after all, everyone who disagrees with you is a POV editor, right?) -- 1544:

research papers published by one, albeit quite distinguished, college.

373:

https://bmcecolevol.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1471-2148-13-216

84: 63: 2966:

Identity Politics, Nationalism and the Future of Northeast Asian Order

1318:

That's because you keep deleting the referred source in your reverts.

773:

The statement of this topic's supposed irrelevance with the issues of

1156:- to be legit and in compliance with the NPOV policies of Knowledge. 405: 305: 2868:

CASS: 1.25 million, or 250,000 a year (中国社会科学院重大课题经费125万元，每年拨付25万元);

1089:

well, especially considering that this is a Chinese-themed article.

778: 2056:. It was created as an offshoot of the Modern Politics sections of 3017:

to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:

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Korea in the New Asia: East Asian Integration and the China Factor

1745:

Despite the recent rewrite of the article, several issues remain.

212: 98: 96:, a collaborative effort to build and improve articles related to 2960:

T Roehrig - Journal of Asian and African Studies, 2010. (paywall)

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their official capacities are criticizing the Northeast Project.

1103:

Oh, and just the other day, a friend of mine sent me a link to a

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China and Northeast Asia: A Complex Equation for 'Peaceful Rise'

18:

Talk:Northeast Project of the Chinese Academy of Social Sciences

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C Moon, SW Suh - The United States and Northeast Asia: …, 2008]

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your changes, and don't intentionally insert your POV that you

956:

Request for Mediation taken by Armed Blowfish and Daniel Bryant

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https://baike.so.com/doc/5092872-5321020.html#5092872-5321020-8

110:. For instructions on how use this banner, please refer to the 696:

Gaogouli is only a small part of the entire Northeast Project,

268:

Strange places in this article (suspected Korean nationalists)

26: 3315:

has been notified of this discussion. —Usernamekiran_(AWB) (

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has been notified of this discussion. —Usernamekiran_(AWB) (

3032:

When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the

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Apparently many Korean historians share this misinformation.

2664:"China's Northeast Project: Defensive or Offensive Strategy" 3208:

Northeast Project of the Chinese Academy of Social Sciences

2995:

Northeast Project of the Chinese Academy of Social Sciences

2617:"China's ascendancy and the future of the Korean peninsula" 2527:"China's ascendancy and the future of the Korean peninsula" 2859:

http://bjzx.cass.cn/upload/2010/10/d20101018141401400.doc

1982:, or we only use secondary sources, but we end up giving 1435:

I have made a list of issues above, please address them.

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I have just added archive links to one external link on

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is China’s enterprise to develop its northeast provinces

2420:

Park Yang Jin, "중국 역사공정의 비판적 검토: 하상주단대공정과 중화문명탐원공정을 중심으로

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Can you check the original Korean language versions of

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Northeast Project (Chinese Academy of Social Sciences)

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History of Koguryŏ and China’s Northeast Asian Project

2591:, with an additional 2.5 million every year afterwards 2339:

This format would clearly distinguish this wiki from

2002:

sources should be considered historical revisionism.

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Start-Class China-related articles of Low-importance

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http://chinaborderland.cass.cn/show_News.asp?id=1837

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http://chinaborderland.cass.cn/show_News.asp?id=1835

965:. This message is being posted elsewhere. Thanks, 538:

These are all sourced. Don't vandalize the article.

211:, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of 3335:article which is about a political party in Italy. 3057:using the archive tool instructions below. Editors 599:The background information you're referring to has 384:

https://news.gmw.cn/2018-02/27/content_27820444.htm

1171:about studying Goguryeo tombs and paintings, etc. 743:the issue of Gaogouli has nothing to do with the 2142:You're more than welcome to make an article on 1280:), and is considered to be POV/Content forking 3043:This message was posted before February 2018. 2461:(東國史學 in Hanja?) mean "Korean Historiography"? 1422:Chinese/English source confirming any of this. 640:article is so POV, then add unbiased sources. 615:that has almost nothing to do with the topic. 2942:by Pankaj N. Mohan, The University of Sydney. 2619:. Have they translated the numbers correctly? 2613:"What China's Northeast Project Is All About" 2517:"What China's Northeast Project Is All About" 963:Mediation Committee policy on confidentiality 395:https://baike.so.com/doc/6956206-7178638.html 8: 2936:by JH Chung - Asian Survey, 2009. (paywall) 1276:The section on criticism is redundant (see 752:study of Northeast China (Dongbei) and has 689:be traced back to the Qing-Republican eras. 30: 3228:"? Or should the PRC one also be renamed " 3161:The following is a closed discussion of a 483: 441: 157: 58: 2443:Critical Studies on Modern Korean History 2417:Kim Ji Hoon, 한중 역사갈등 줄이기: 동북공정과 중국의 역사교과서 2200:Yes, thanks for providing the citations! 1260:These are Korean accusations, not facts. 1092:Secondly, if you look at one of the last 839:I even added a source of Zhonghua Minzu. 3274:into a disambiguation page and redirect 2876:Total: 15 million, or 3 million a year. 2413:Name of Korean articles are as follows: 1965:It might be preferable, for the sake of 1231:A few issues that need to be addressed: 102:. All interested editors are invited to 3123:South Korean nationalists rule en.wiki? 2948:by JH Chung - Politics, 2007. (paywall) 490:2404:8000:1003:6D86:69FE:F7D9:FE6E:D213 354: 159: 60: 2748: 2706: 2268: 2247: 2230: 2048:Then I guess we would have to use our 731:Definition of vandalism by wikipedia: 448:2001:56A:F825:7400:21FA:8090:BA43:B14A 3384:Low-importance China-related articles 3369:Low-importance Korea-related articles 3114:This debate started by stupid Koreans 2717:and historiography is only part of it 7: 3230:Northeast Project (research project) 3180:The result of the move request was: 2595:, but this is obviously a misreading 1741:Continuing problems in this article. 205:This article is within the scope of 90:This article is within the scope of 3226:Northeast Project (political party) 2423:Seo Gilsu, 중화인민공화국 동북공정 5년의 성과와 전망 1590:I suggest this page be merged into 49:It is of interest to the following 3379:Start-Class China-related articles 3364:Start-Class Korea-related articles 2567:Chinese Academy of Social Sciences 2144:Journal of Northeast Asian History 1598:, it seems that this article is a 406:https://www.zggdwx.com/weishu.html 25: 3232:" (or take its actual full name, 2997:. Please take a moment to review 1809:Thank you for the correspondence. 603:to do with the Northeast Project 3346:The discussion above is closed. 2747:A blog (August 2008) says this: 2361:A few issues about the footnotes 2298:, an organization that promotes 2090:if I created an article for the 650:1) No, the Northeast Project is 192: 182: 161: 83: 62: 31: 2934:China's "soft" clash with Korea 2370:, this is not specific enough. 741:Like I said many times before, 477:A little comment on the article 329:2014 Great wall wikipedia entry 323:2008 Great wall wikipedia entry 245:This article has been rated as 140:This article has been rated as 3201:20:04, 13 September 2023 (UTC) 1643:14:14, 14 September 2012 (UTC) 754:nothing to do with South Korea 1: 3341:14:52, 3 September 2023 (UTC) 3240:/ 06:19, 18 August 2023 (UTC) 3154:Requested move 18 August 2023 3109:20:15, 22 February 2016 (UTC) 2981:15:58, 12 February 2013 (UTC) 2913:06:16, 11 February 2013 (UTC) 2886:13:26, 10 February 2013 (UTC) 2844:03:41, 10 February 2013 (UTC) 2196:I hope this explains enough. 1735:13:16, 22 December 2012 (UTC) 1700:12:16, 22 December 2012 (UTC) 1628:23:07, 6 September 2012 (UTC) 748:. The Northeast Project is a 456:10:18, 28 November 2023 (UTC) 219:and see a list of open tasks. 2817:04:26, 17 January 2013 (UTC) 2801:00:32, 17 January 2013 (UTC) 2779:10:40, 12 January 2013 (UTC) 2642:06:45, 12 January 2013 (UTC) 2607:03:46, 11 January 2013 (UTC) 2558:03:12, 11 January 2013 (UTC) 2543:07:40, 10 January 2013 (UTC) 2501:10:23, 10 January 2013 (UTC) 2478:03:34, 10 January 2013 (UTC) 2353:04:48, 10 January 2013 (UTC) 2210:03:35, 10 January 2013 (UTC) 2173:rights of all nationalities. 2092:Goguryeo Research Foundation 1711:in your notification message 1685:00:33, 9 November 2012 (UTC) 1663:15:23, 20 October 2012 (UTC) 1595: 926:06:32, 6 November 2007 (UTC) 582:Its not all about Goguryeo. 3321:21:37, 29 August 2023 (UTC) 3305:21:37, 29 August 2023 (UTC) 3288:13:03, 21 August 2023 (UTC) 3253:21:37, 29 August 2023 (UTC) 3149:05:54, 20 August 2022 (UTC) 2571:Chinese Ministry of Finance 2433:23:05, 9 January 2013 (UTC) 2408:22:57, 9 January 2013 (UTC) 2388:11:37, 9 January 2013 (UTC) 2191:08:27, 8 January 2013 (UTC) 2157:23:30, 9 January 2013 (UTC) 2126:05:05, 8 January 2013 (UTC) 2073:08:48, 8 January 2013 (UTC) 2034:03:58, 8 January 2013 (UTC) 2012:03:44, 8 January 2013 (UTC) 1996:03:40, 8 January 2013 (UTC) 1961:On "historical revisionism" 1915:03:38, 8 January 2013 (UTC) 1895:03:38, 8 January 2013 (UTC) 1874:03:55, 8 January 2013 (UTC) 1839:03:29, 8 January 2013 (UTC) 1801:03:13, 8 January 2013 (UTC) 1774:12:32, 7 January 2013 (UTC) 1581:14:02, 8 January 2012 (UTC) 1554:10:17, 6 October 2011 (UTC) 519:). Much of the article has 225:Knowledge:WikiProject China 120:Knowledge:WikiProject Korea 3410: 3394:WikiProject China articles 3374:WikiProject Korea articles 3074:(last update: 5 June 2024) 3015:|deny=InternetArchiveBot}} 2990:Hello fellow Wikipedians, 2451:Critical Review of History 1345:From the referred source. 1221:23:25, 27 April 2007 (UTC) 1210:23:16, 27 April 2007 (UTC) 1187:02:10, 26 April 2007 (UTC) 1176:01:14, 26 April 2007 (UTC) 1161:23:33, 25 April 2007 (UTC) 1139:07:10, 25 April 2007 (UTC) 1122:02:11, 25 April 2007 (UTC) 1081:00:29, 25 April 2007 (UTC) 1056:00:03, 25 April 2007 (UTC) 1045:16:29, 24 April 2007 (UTC) 975:19:47, 23 April 2007 (UTC) 899:00:28, 25 April 2007 (UTC) 877:02:34, 24 April 2007 (UTC) 844:01:50, 24 April 2007 (UTC) 832:01:47, 24 April 2007 (UTC) 797:01:02, 24 April 2007 (UTC) 761:23:26, 23 April 2007 (UTC) 726:23:09, 23 April 2007 (UTC) 706:05:37, 23 April 2007 (UTC) 683:02:26, 23 April 2007 (UTC) 668:23:40, 22 April 2007 (UTC) 645:22:26, 22 April 2007 (UTC) 620:19:19, 22 April 2007 (UTC) 587:15:06, 22 April 2007 (UTC) 575:15:06, 22 April 2007 (UTC) 570:the Northeast Project is. 559:14:19, 22 April 2007 (UTC) 543:14:14, 22 April 2007 (UTC) 533:02:16, 21 April 2007 (UTC) 498:17:31, 13 March 2021 (UTC) 251:project's importance scale 228:Template:WikiProject China 146:project's importance scale 123:Template:WikiProject Korea 1559:Refernces on this article 1491:09:11, 28 July 2009 (UTC) 611:ridiculous one-sided POV 472:11:40, 6 March 2007 (UTC) 244: 177: 139: 78: 57: 3348:Please do not modify it. 3168:Please do not modify it. 2447:Koguryeo Balhae Research 2100:Dokdo Research Institute 1613:15:05, 5 July 2012 (UTC) 1533:03:58, 30 May 2007 (UTC) 1512:03:32, 30 May 2007 (UTC) 1464:03:58, 30 May 2007 (UTC) 1440:22:08, 29 May 2007 (UTC) 1389:05:59, 29 May 2007 (UTC) 1376:04:44, 29 May 2007 (UTC) 1350:04:17, 29 May 2007 (UTC) 1332:04:05, 29 May 2007 (UTC) 1323:03:48, 29 May 2007 (UTC) 1314:03:34, 29 May 2007 (UTC) 1304:03:23, 29 May 2007 (UTC) 1295:00:38, 29 May 2007 (UTC) 913:00:35, 18 May 2007 (UTC) 2986:External links modified 2721:the news media in Korea 1950:) 16:31, 8 January 2013 1925:Reqeusted translations 1154:not necessarily actions 417:《辽史》载：太祖二年冬十月“筑长城于镇东海口” 2510: 2341:Goguryeo controversies 2328:Goguryeo controversies 1592:Goguryeo controversies 1278:Goguryeo controversies 1194:Goguryeo controversies 554:to do with Gaogouli). 231:China-related articles 126:Korea-related articles 106:and contribute to the 39:This article is rated 2709:the Northeast Project 2302:on American campuses. 2246:Cydevil38, you said: 1107:, here's an excerpt: 1067:comment was added by 3055:regular verification 3040:to let others know. 3001:. If necessary, add 2229:Shrigley, you said: 1227:Outstanding problems 3045:After February 2018 3036:parameter below to 2096:Bohai controversies 3333:North-East Project 3276:North-East Project 3214:North-East Project 3050:InternetArchiveBot 2587:for the first year 2529:(by Kim Taeho, in 2300:intelligent design 2286:, yet the wiki on 45:content assessment 3323: 3313:WikiProject China 3307: 3297:WikiProject Korea 3272:Northeast Project 3255: 3222:Northeast Project 3191: 3188:non-admin closure 3107: 3075: 2925:Some more sources 2707:Firstly, what is 2054:Northeast Project 1952: 1938:comment added by 1733: 1675:comment added by 1510: 1481:comment added by 1084: 952: 938:comment added by 745:Northeast Project 657:Northeast Project 526:Original Research 500: 488:comment added by 458: 446:comment added by 294:Haplogroup C-M130 289:Haplogroup O-M122 284:Haplogroup N-M231 265: 264: 261: 260: 257: 256: 208:WikiProject China 156: 155: 152: 151: 93:WikiProject Korea 16:(Redirected from 3401: 3310: 3294: 3268:Progetto NordEst 3241: 3185: 3170: 3103: 3102:Talk to my owner 3098: 3073: 3072: 3051: 3016: 3008: 2511:The NEP's budget 2459:Dong Gook Sa Hak 2288:creation science 2267:Shrigley again: 1951: 1932: 1722: 1719: 1687: 1506: 1493: 1062: 951: 932: 418: 415: 409: 403: 397: 392: 386: 381: 375: 370: 364: 359: 233: 232: 229: 226: 223: 202: 197: 196: 195: 186: 179: 178: 173: 165: 158: 128: 127: 124: 121: 118: 104:join the project 87: 80: 79: 74: 66: 59: 42: 36: 35: 27: 21: 3409: 3408: 3404: 3403: 3402: 3400: 3399: 3398: 3354: 3353: 3352: 3351: 3248:—usernamekiran 3184:the first one. 3166: 3156: 3125: 3116: 3106: 3101: 3066: 3059:have permission 3049: 3010: 3002: 2988: 2927: 2513: 2368:WP:page numbers 2363: 2050:WP:Common Sense 1963: 1933: 1743: 1715: 1670: 1588: 1561: 1541: 1499: 1476: 1229: 1197: 1063:—The preceding 982: 958: 933: 479: 464: 423: 422: 421: 416: 412: 404: 400: 393: 389: 382: 378: 371: 367: 360: 356: 270: 230: 227: 224: 221: 220: 198: 193: 191: 171: 125: 122: 119: 116: 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