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who stand by the actual CSA's core value that african americans should be violently subjugated. Neo-nazis have little interest in core NC myths, the real CSA that went to war to propensiate race based slavery fits well with their POV. As sourced, neo-nazi use of the confederate battle flag is extremely upsetting to the vast majority of NC believers. Further its an uncontested fact the nazi-kkk cooperation at
Greensboro stemmed from a shared hatred of communism, not a shared belief in fascism. Per the article, the ideology of the LoS does not include fascism. The Unite the Right Rally is linked-oh and it was called unite the *right, not unite the fascists.......
1630:), the ideology has always been a flimsy pretense, and, also like fascism, it is never going to be particularly coherent. Fascism and neoconfederacy overlap according to many sources, and there is no particular reason to view the two as incompatible or strictly separate. This idea that neo-Nazis are "very descernible" is contrary to most reliable sources I have read on this. Other than the typical infighting of all violent far-right movements, the two groups tightly overlap. That some hypothetical neo-confederates oppose neo-Nazism in some undefined way is is unimpressive and smacks of false nuance. The histories of
1605:, the Confederacy was not a fascist state. "Neo-Confederate" is a label more than anything, a catch all noun applicable to a range of views and huge number of people-virtually none of whom support actual fascism but just live in an alternate reality where secession was a just cause and not to preserve slavery. In stark contrast, modern fascists, EG neo-nazis, are very discernible cliques who actually stand by nazism. Neo-nazis are inherent sympathizers of neo-confederatism but this does not alter the fact that the many who sport confederate battle flags/spout lost cause ideology find no common cause with fascism.
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groups-with regards to the last 2, Neo-Confederates are not some offshoot of nazi fascism but there own distinct extremist movement, moreover I am not proposing that List of KKK orgs be removed. Continuing: List of desig hate groups by the SPLC-essentially already covered. Nativism also seems drifting off topic, Racism
Against African Americans in the US is already there so do we really need Racism in the US as well? Richard Weaver was just a conservative southern scholar, prominent in his time perhaps but I've personally never seen anything connecting him with neo-confederate ideology.
2613:. That a conservative magazine in the 1930s would be sympathetic to fascism is not such an extraordinary claim that we need kid gloves, weasel words, and an extra helping of sources to justify this. The current sources are sufficient for a single paragraph. This is a historical thread and this single paragraph explains it succinctly and neutrally. As always, it is up to sources to provide all this context, not editors. That includes the opposition of the Southern Agrarians to fascism. Other opposition to this, as presented above, is neither policy-based nor impartial.
2550:. Based on my review of this talk page, the prior discussion concerned see also links. A lot, though concededly not all, of that discussion concerned the length of the see-also section at the time, with a few editors saying that the section was already long enough. But those arguments don't apply to this proposed addition of prose to the article. Other portions of that discussion concern three different sources—a NYT article, a WaPo article, and a paper by Niall Munro. But these sources are entirely distinct from what's proposed here!
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alteration to their npov edits is unacceptable to WS, according to whom NCs are considered fascist by apparently anyone who isn't a Nazi. The RfC proposal is no exception, as in the talk discussions, WS restated their NPOV, claims are either absent in the sources or completely stripped of relevant context, when asked where the content is contained in the sources they again outright refused and once the protection tag expired immediately restored their NPOV edit, falsely claiming consensus.
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refused to cooperate when asked to state where support for his changes could be found). That among the dozens of writers from across the ideological spec invited by SC to contribute to his short lived journal included a clique of poets from
Vanderbilt does not create a nexus between fascism and NC, especially since after he came out as a fascist they publicly condemned him and cut ties w/ AR. As both you and Seward Collins acknowledged, the SAs were in fact opponents of fascism.
2933:, or even mention the word. Nor does it mention any terrorist or criminal acts of violence to bring about political change. While the American Civil War was a military action, this article appears to be about a post-Civil War revision of the history by the losing side for political reasons. If terrorism is involved, it is not apparent from this article. If somebody can sensibly explain the inclusion rationale, I will be happy to have the banner added back. -
2591:, for reasons I gave above-NPOV pushing of unsourced content by proposer who repeatedly failed to achieve talk consensus. Idt I'd obj necessarily if the content wasn't historically inaccurate. The American Review was only in circulation from 1933-37. Collins had sought contributions from several intelectual schools of conservatism but "NC and white supremacists" were neither specifically recruited or represented. A circle of 12 Vanderbilt poets, called the
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These links are not longstanding but recent adds of drive by IPs, other editors deleted them previously. You keep re-adding them though without material basis. I've repeatedly given thorough reasons for why they should not be added. I posted this thread over a month ago seeking input, you never participated. I remain fully open to discussing with you/other editors why any or all of these should be added.
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neo-nazi groups again tried appealing to NCs by adopting symbols such as the
Confederate battle flag, which was generally met with derision by NCs. Though some more extreme NC groups have found common cause with fascists, sources widely agree this is rooted in shared support for white supremacy, not fascism. Editors may also want to review the above discussions and edit history.
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linked and was not called unite the *fascists. Even the confusing pdf source seems to fail in this regard. The preceding WaPo art actually notes NC's are not nor ever have been notably sympathetic to fascism. All told, the sources cited throughout the article make it clear that any NC-Nazi common ground is in the area of race, not fascist ideology.
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1283:: Just a reminder, this discussion is a good first step, but you need to be mindful of the fact that you shouldn't be reverting editors that have already reverted your removals. It looks like edit warring. Wait for this discussion to conclude, judge what the consensus is, and then make an edit, if consensus dictates that an edit is needed. Tagging
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their changes. At Talk they failed to gain consensus and stopped participating altogether once the 1st protection template was put in place. Since then they've edit wared and posted false info about the situation on this thread and to the Talk of editors they believe likely to side with them but continued to ignore the Talk discussion.
1251:, as it was not obvious to me why they would be more relevant to this topic than other conservative persons – the See Also section doesn’t need to be a comprehensive list of every Neo-Confederate who has an article. My intention is to pare down the See Also, as I don’t think it’s useful to list more than twenty or so links.
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they're rigidly opposed to discussion, claiming instead that that removal of any of these links is just an attempt to distant a topic from NConfed ideology/vice versa. While I agree we need both sides, to run with this pov borderlines on strawmanning (idk any reasonable person agreeing the only possible motive for deleting
2056:, possibly signifies a shift for NCs, but without explicit sources, it's just OR in my opinion. These editors are in serious need of guidance, so I will leave it to you to decide what is best, and which of them is or is not acting in the best interest of this article. Feel free to ping me as an involved editor anytime.
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Oh man, I appreciate that you'd seek my input!, but I have to admit I'm a little apprehensive of my ability to draft anything given my lack of background knowledge. Having reviewed the second source, I'm also a little concerned it doesn't perfectly support the second sentence. Ideally, I think, you'd
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known for their defense of rural southern culture did participate. Though not generally associated with NC, SAs did hold NC sympathetic views but were open ardent opponents of fascism, joining with most other AR contributors in immediately ending all affiliations w/ the journal after
Collins came out
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No. I'm saying I don't have access to the cited sources in the article, and I asked for relevant quotes. While there may be some similarities from the handful of sources I did find, those are mostly opinion and by no means a consensus of RS which leads me closer the conclusion that this SEE ALSO link
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Neo-Confederates are groups and individuals who portray the
Confederate States of America and its actions during the American Civil War in a positive light. The League of the South, the Sons of Confederate Veterans and other neo-Confederate organizations continue to defend the secession of the former
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Not falsifying an article's edit history is also a good first step though usually not one that is necessary. Please be mindful that tagging uninvolved editors seemingly likely to agree with you based off incorrect claims of their involvement may be interpreted as canvassing, even if done so in error.
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Regarding this RfC, editors should take into consideration that the citations provided after both sentences, do not affirm the preceding claims. According to actual sources in article, outreach attempts by fascist in 1930s and 40s were resoundingly rebuffed by Neo-Confederates, starting in the 1970s
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An issue throughout is Wes's strategy of ignoring Talk and just making things up re the page's edit history. They're aware that their changes are recent, in fact very recent and only went to Talk after being called out by
Bishonen for incorrectly claiming other editors than themselves were restoring
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All we have on Seward
Collins is a stub with the label "This article relies largely or entirely on a single source" and even then his connection with fascism is by association and that from statements made at a time when no one knew where it (fascism) was going and when it had a suprising number of
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Lost cause mythology=Fascist propaganda is a weak correlation. Per the art you linked, fascism doesn't notably diverge from other movements in this re. The overwhelming majority of NCs stand by a fictional CSA defined by qualities most liberals would stand by. On the extreme are groups like the KKK
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I managed to find a few academic opinions on my own that made a correlation, but that would require attribution and isn't very compelling. I should also mention I do not subscribe to NYT or WaPo so it would help to share any explicit quotes that include NC and facist movement in the same sentence,
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I agree with everything you said^. I've long been and still am open to discussion and would prefer to we at least try and avoid cont back and forth. Though efforts to include all ~10 links prev added by drive by IPs seem to have died down, 1 editor continues to re-add here and there. Unfortunately
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Please stop just foaming off at the mouth, you can disagree pedantically and also know what you're talking about. The "longest most bloated" remark was hyperbole, that aside what pages are you hanging out on where 39 see also links is typical? Please follow up on those specific IPs you so blindly
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I also disagree, a discussion was had and the weight of it was against incl of WS's NPOV unsourced edits. Every discussion thread fizzled out after WS refused requests to specify sourcing for their claim NC is inherently fascist-an assertion contradicted by multiple sources actually cited in the
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I subscribe to NYT and was able to read to the WaPo source-neither contains language asserting that NC is a fascist movement. The WaPo article does not even appear to contain "fascist" as a stand alone word. No one is denying that some NC groups participated in the unite the right rally-which is
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If that is "the longest most bloated I've ever seen" you haven't seen very many TBH, and calling a series of IP edits "drive by" edits is silly and assumes bad faith. Redundancy is fine in a see also list, because that is precisely what they are for. They exist to direct readers to other related
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Neo-confederates is not in the list of fascist movements. It is only included in the see also, the longest most bloated I've ever seen and was added to there by a drive by IP. Re: the KKK nexus, yes exactly, the article body thoroughly covers the topic. The section above the see also practically
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I thought it was obvious to anyone but IP editors POV pushing that the see also here is bloated. There's 22 links currently, many of which are essentially repetitive or inappropriate. Would anyone object to the removal of
Jeffersonian Democracy, Kinism, List of Fascist Movement, List of Neo-Nazi
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Thank you for that openly NPOV opening sentence. As was detailed in the discussion below, even these cherry picked sources do not actually affirm the claims being asserted. The 2nd source is a thesis by sociologists, that even still fails to support the specific content being pushed (the editor
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I too have no affinity for this backwards movement but this is an encyclopedia and its hard to pretend this editor isn't just POV pushing. If the content they just added to the was truthful my position may be different however in context they so demonstrably misrepresented the facts their edit
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I am a little apprehensive about using this source to say
Collins provided an avenue—Collins seems to be an afterthought in this text: he's only tied to one issue in the text, and the purpose of that reference seems to be to have suggested that Collins wrote an editorial openly sympathetic to
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We're talking about a See Also link, not some statement in the lead that requires 5 different sources that explicitly state that "NC is a fascist movement" - there is a relationship between the two ideologies, that fact is sourced, and the See Also link is well within appropriate guidelines.
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While NC may qualify as a movement, they do not seem to qualify as a type of authority or government, at least explicitly. While their beliefs may fall under the umbrella or spectrum of fascism, I'm not sure that alone qualifies. Any explicit consensus by RS that backs up the claim that NC is
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I haven't even touched most of their edits, not to mention reverted. WS's refusal to stop making things up and engage in a good faith discussion has hindered substantive progress. EG I fixed a sentence to accurately reflect sources and state *critics of NCs often label them fascists, but any
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Well, there's no progress, because OgamD218 has basically resorted to just reverting to their preferred version of the article, even though there was a long-standing stable version before they came along. They haven't offered any meaningful reasons for their removals besides
1200:, instead of just reverting, I wanted to call attention to some inconsistencies. While white supremacy IS already linked, I did not see many of the others, so it may possible this editor accidentally overlooked some of the changes that may indeed have WEIGHT. Thoughts?
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The first sentence of the source you provide is "At the white supremacist rally in Charlottesville over the weekend, marchers carried Confederate and Nazi flags side by side". Thanks for supporting more links between today's neo-Confederates and Nazi fascism.
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supporters. Communism was the big fear at the time and look where that went. Any association with Facism that might be pertinent to this article is summed up by the existing line "Critics often associate Neo-Confederates with fascism in the United States".
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This may be the first time I will suggest RSN over a SEE ALSO link. Clearly, there are no explicit sources that back up the claim that NCs are considered a fascist movement. Does "overlap" count? I honestly don't know. I think recent history, ie the
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by Bishonen for such personal attacks in the past. I'm trying to resolve this with RfC's because it's clear they're just going to continue edit warring, as they did right after page protection expired last time. The first one can be found below.
1820:? I can guarantee that I have nothing to lose or gain either way. I'm no fan of fascism or NCs for that matter, so my only concern is the quality and legitimacy of this article and Wiki as a whole. WP:OR only hurts this article in the long run.
2074:, my understanding is a greater nexus than "overlap" alone is necessary. Considering sources are in agreement that: NC is not fascism, a notable minority of NCs "overlap" with fascists and, said "overlap" stems entirely from shared support for
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policy does not apply directly to the subject of this article, it may contain material that relates to living persons, such as friends and family of persons no longer living, or living persons involved in the subject matter. Unsourced or
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So you're acknowledging that there's 3 reliable sources that link Neo-Confederates and fascist movements, you've found more academic sources that make the same link, but... that's not enough? How many sources do we need? 20? 30?
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I'm pretty sure that the only people that aren't "critics" of neo-Confederates are... neo-Confederates. Maybe neo-Nazis too. The cited sources doesn't make such an equivocation. As such, the old wording is fine. Pretty sure
1773:. Now, does anyone care to share material from the links in the article that show ANY mainstream consensus, academic or otherwise, that provide evidence to support a link from Neo-confederate to fascist movements, or not?
1432:'s question about including those: Neo-Confederates is literally in the list of fascist movements; that one isn't rocket science. The links to the KKK are well-sourced in the body of the article, and there's no link to
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To address your question about the link: the neo-Confederates and neo-Nazis (ie, fascists) marched side-by-side at the Unite the Right rally with common stated goals, and that link is well-documented in many sources.
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2225:. Two editors are disagreeing, and up to now neither of them has done anything much to resolve it, or to bring in outside eyes. As the unsigned Oppose (?) says, RfC's should only be started after some discussion.
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Marching "side-by-side" and saying NC are "much like" a fascist movement is not RS, let alone an explicit consensus by RS. The only mention of fascism in the article with RS is at the end and includes these cites
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if we are the ones who are wrong here then please, by all means, reply with a direct quote(s), from an impartial authority, not an editorial, from any of the sources that according to you are "all over the
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What sources, can you share them? I promise I am not trying to take sides here, but without RS to back up the claim that there is a relationship between NC and fascist movements, doesn't that make it
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article. From the start WS has pursued a strategy of edit warring, making things up and begging Bishonen to intervene for them-in fact they only came to talk after multiple attempts at this failed.
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Perhaps Neo-confederate may be more closely compared to "Neo"-fascism? I haven't done much research to see if there is much RS that makes that connection, but it could be worth looking into.
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First off, they're not "claims", they're simple statements of fact. Second, you can read a reference just as easily as I can, so surely you can see the page numbers in those references.
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European fascism. In other words, the text never says Collins provided an avenue; it says he was the editor of one issue of a publication that provided an avenue. I think that raises a
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See, for example, the unattributed editorial from 1933 (although the editor of the issue was Seward Collins) ... which argued that Hitler's rise to power ended 'the Communist threat
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If multiple reliable sources associate "Neo-Confederates with fascism in the United States", that is enough. It's original research to add "Critics say that..." as a qualifier.
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system, which is simpler and less onerous for everybody? It's intended for just such a situation as this. I suppose nobody wants the article protected indefinitely over this.
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can be applied here. I don't know why one editor is trying to soften the image of Neo-Confederates in this article and I don't care about why. I just know it's not a NPOV.
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This is not about the white supremacist ideation of the Confederacy, it is about neo-confederacy. Since this later movement is based on a false history of lies, (
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I'd really like to see more discussion of the arguments in favor and opposed to the suggested prose (and the sources used) before I commit either way.<--
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In the 1930s, self-described fascist publisher Seward Collins provided an avenue for white supremacists and neo-Confederates to advance their ideology in
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on this particular page was to somehow distant NConfeds from white natlsm). A stronger case certainly be made in favor of including some of these links.
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many publications have made the direct connection. I think that more research is needed, and absent such sources, we probably should avoid the claim.--
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It's honestly difficult for me to know exactly what Ogam is talking about at any particular time, given the amount of attacks they've visited upon me.
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As consensus is pretty clearly against your removals of the See Also links that I've restored, I'd stop edit warring at this point if I were you.
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considered a fascist movement would settle the issue but I'm not seeing this, and not for lack of searching. Please correct me if I'm wrong here.
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and published by the University of Texas. Clearly relevant and reliably sourced. The second sentence is also reliably sourced to the 2014 book
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Agreed. These links are helpful and appropriate, and should remain. Further, neo-confederate movements' ties to racism are not limited to
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I disagree that there's been no discussion - the section above is huge. OgamD218, judging by their near-automatic reversions and
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on Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the ongoing discussions.
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While a range of 15 may seem higher than average, I'm not sure it's unreasonable to have that number of links. In regard to the
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defended.... Most importantly, no, it is not fine for the content of any section of an encyclopedic article to be "redundant".
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serves as a stand alone list of KKK organizations. Further all KKK orgs would already be included in the included SPLC list.
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in support of Euro's Fascism in 1936, forcing AR to close soon after. SAs were amongst Collins' harshest critics thereafter.
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So before we continue this back and forth (which may or may not be likely), could we get some discussion as to the reasons
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Lol touché, I'll give you that much. I hit reply on the App to the last message from @DN and this is how it came out.
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The problem is, it's not so easy to find a source for the first sentence. I mean, I did find a law-review article by
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BTW...There has been no discussion (apart from the bit below from the initiator) about this so why the RfC already?
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Truman was a "neo-Confederate" (member of the SCV). Didn't he destroy fascism in WWII? -
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There is no section titled "controversy". What are you talking about here?
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I'm open to seeing what alternative text you would use in this paragraph.
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the specific entries were not very relevant, as OgamD218 enumerated above.
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Hague, Euan; Beirich, Heidi; Sebesta, Edward H. (15 September 2009).
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Hague, Euan; Beirich, Heidi; Sebesta, Edward H. (15 September 2009).
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Fully protected for another week, as there is no talk-page progress.
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OgamD218 reverted every change I've made to the article, full stop
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The Manual of style is explicitly pretty vague on the topic (see
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issue with the sourcing, but not as pervasive as Ogam suggests.
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They are all over the article, and I added two more yesterday.
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paragraph etc...No offense, but this is starting to look like
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While they’re not present in the text, the page does link to
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Should the following paragraph be included in the article?
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I’m admittedly not sure of the reasons for including them.
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2378:Omi, Michael; Winant, Howard (20 June 2014).
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2792:, a literary journal openly sympathetic to
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2891:. University of Texas Press. p. 29.
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2450:Lukewarmbeer
2444:— Preceding
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2421:— Preceding
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2768:Wes sideman
2725:Wes sideman
2669:Wes sideman
2512:Wes sideman
2494:Wes sideman
2478:Wes sideman
2320:Wes sideman
2257:Wes sideman
2219:Wes sideman
2201:Wes sideman
2183:Doug Weller
2136:Wes sideman
2094:Wes sideman
2072:Darknipples
1986:Wes sideman
1954:Wes sideman
1925:Wes sideman
1864:Wes sideman
1836:Wes sideman
1801:Wes sideman
1790:Darknipples
1756:Wes sideman
1713:Wes sideman
1698:Darknipples
1601:Regardless
1438:Wes sideman
1362:MOS:SEEALSO
1301:Wes sideman
1287:Darknipples
643:Structure:
159:free images
42:not a forum
2951:Categories
2847:References
2646:Discussion
2333:References
1921:WP:NONAZIS
1295:Neutrality
1237:categories
1114:designated
260:While the
2223:something
1892:Topcat777
1217:Alt-right
1127:, or any
911:Civil War
99:if needed
82:Be polite
32:talk page
2870:April 8,
2736:WP:SYNTH
2715:forever'
2653:OgamD218
2630:OgamD218
2615:Grayfell
2598:OgamD218
2574:Jack4576
2498:OgamD218
2458:contribs
2446:unsigned
2435:contribs
2423:unsigned
2282:OgamD218
2235:Bishonen
2178:Bishonen
2163:OgamD218
2156:Lectonar
2125:Lectonar
2110:Lectonar
2080:OgamD218
2038:Bishonen
2012:OgamD218
1982:OgamD218
1968:OgamD218
1869:OgamD218
1771:WP:UNDUE
1736:WP:SYNTH
1707:OgamD218
1666:OgamD218
1659:Grayfell
1644:Grayfell
1607:OgamD218
1527:OgamD218
1490:Grayfell
1488:topics.
1475:OgamD218
1460:Grayfell
1406:OgamD218
1316:OgamD218
1281:OgamD218
1268:OgamD218
830:Politics
821:politics
776:American
771:Politics
604:criteria
197:Archives
67:get help
40:This is
38:article.
2925:of the
2734:(maybe
2611:Support
2529:Comment
1980:Sorry,
1769:may be
1178:before.
1023:on the
915:History
857:on the
497:on the
470:History
461:History
417:History
392:on the
365:Culture
356:culture
328:Culture
299:C-class
226:90Â days
165:WPÂ refs
153:scholar
2740:WP:DUE
2589:Oppose
2416:Oppose
2410:Survey
2253:WP:RFC
2213:Well,
2076:racism
1634:, the
1621:Actual
1343:WP:MOS
1247:, and
1231:, and
989:Alerts
305:scale.
137:Google
2903:4 May
2396:4 May
2363:4 May
1966:Nope
1818:WP:OR
180:JSTOR
141:books
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2939:talk
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1159:Tip:
1108:The
173:FENS
147:news
84:and
2570:Yes
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