1480:- Then maybe let the admin take action instead of volunteering to spread misinformation and conspiracy theories? Is that so difficult to do? Your edits are not making Knowledge any better, they're making it a cesspool of conspiracy theories. Berisha is the leader of opposition in Albania. I haven't seen any evidence supporting claims that he's aided Milosevic, if you've seen I kindly invite you to add. Until then, this is just a conspiracy theory that you're helping spread.
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Albania is a country of 60-75% Atheists/Agnostics. Everyone is by default considered an
Atheist unless he has explicitly declared himself a Muslim or a Christian (where the Orthodox Christians have the majority of believers and depending on the polls they are followed either by Catholics, either by Muslims). Being religious in Albania is the exception, not the norm. This stands a bit as clarification for those reverting the religion field in the article. --
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Albania is a country of 60-75% Atheists/Agnostics. Everyone is by default considered an
Atheist unless he has explicitly declared himself a Muslim or a Christian (where the Orthodox Christians have the majority of believers and depending on the polls they are followed either by Catholics, either by Muslims). Being religious in Albania is the exception, not the norm. This stands a bit as clarification for those reverting the religion field in the article.
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and longer if we want to include such a statement. What I could suggest to you and others is that for the better of this article avoid interviews, statements, opinions, news, primary sources, etc. and focus on providing better academic works and independent institutions opinions. At least on the UN oil and arms embargo, we have plenty of solid sources to use and improve the article. For example
1689:- Could you opine on whether it's worth keeping this "controversy" on SB's WP page or if it violates the policy on BLP? I don't think the allegations of one politician against another alone with no further journalistic investigation should be the standard for including a controversy, and tried to remove but wasn't able to. Admins said I was the minority opinion in this one.
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If you ask me: there are numerous reports from official sources confirming that
Albania did break the arm and oil embargo and that the government was heavily involved. However, you can add Berisha's response and if you have sources (media outlets) that claim this is just a political attack, go on and
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Nope I'm not trying to push conspiracies or anything like that, which is funny since you use conspiracies and assumptions to justify your edits in the discussions we held before. Ironically the "politician" you are referring (who's Hashim Thaçi) was the commander of KLA and not just "some politician"
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have removed from Edi Rama's page. There's a paragraph I added couple years ago that talks about how Rama benefited from, and was involved in an illegal political donation to a U.S. Presidential campaign. Sources include DOJ press releases (people pleading guilty in federal court) and reporting from
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Could you please provide some proof that says he is atheist. Unfortunately, we can't use User:Dimror's as proof. I've given a source that says he is Muslim. I never assumed he is Muslim because of his name; I assumed he is Muslim because that's what it says in the source I provided. This is same guy
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According to 2011 Census only 2.50% of
Albanians declared themselves as Atheists, 58.79% "explicitly declared" themselves Muslim and 16.99% "explicitly declared" themselves Christian. While it is true that religion doesn't play much role to majority of Albanians UserDimror's claim that "Albania is a
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Since when Top
Channel is pro-Rama? Top Channel is many things but not that. What was removed in Rama's page was heavily discussed in that talk page, so no FierakuiVërtet isn't POV-pushing. Hashim Thaçi was the commander of UÇK and the main figure behind that organisation although I have to admit I
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Why not
Gazetta 55, SyriTv, and Exit.Al then? You used Top Channel which has a bias as well all news papers have a bias to them. Using Top channel does not simply mean it's more proven then the ones you mentioned. Like that we will have to look at specific articles in a more detailed grasp. Even if
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I don't want to enter whether one politician is more credible than another. In fact, I try not to get involved in controversial edits about active politicians at all. The "accusation" is not new, and Thaçi isn't neither the first nor the last to make such statements. So the section could get longer
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By the way, according to 2011 Census only 2.50% of
Albanians declared themselves as Atheists, 58.79% "explicitly declared" themselves Muslim and 16.99% "explicitly declared" themselves Christian. While it is true that religion doesn't play much role to majority of Albanians, UserDimror's claim that
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He is a pragmatist oportunist and he established relations with the
Islamic world bacause he needed investments from Gulf Sheiks.Here in Albania religion has a very different meaning from in most of the world(It basically refers to your family's historical heritage not what you actually practice or
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Even if they are that does not simply mean top channel doesn’t have a bias. Top channel is known for being pro Rama to begin with. Just because you consider it a
Reliable source. Again you aren’t placing a npov but only one sides view. You even tried to remove controversial figures over Rama. You
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Yes, but you should include
Berisha's response otherwise it's not NPOV. He also made some statements about the matter and many sources claim that the whole story was a political attack. If you ask me there are a lot of independent media outlets that have done a better job of explaining the story.
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In the given sources his religion is of trivial importance and is simply mentioned without any specifics.He himself has never made any declaration about his religion in public.He was member of the Albanian Labour Party wich demanded from the members not just atheism but hostility to religion in
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Berisha is a declared Atheist just like roughly 80% of Albanian politicians. Some people make the mistake of assigning a religion to them by analyzing their names and surnames. But this is not the case anymore. Names in Albania don't show a person's religion, not for at least the last 50 years.
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Berisha is a declared Atheist just like roughly 80% of Albanian politicians. Some people make the mistake of assigning a religion to them by analyzing their names and surnames. But this is not the case anymore. Names in Albania don't show a person's religion, not for at least the last 50 years.
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Most of the sources I've found state that he is Muslim and then go into detail about his actions that helped strengthen Albania's ties to the Islamic world. I can't find any self-declaration, but I'm not sure if we need that to be able to call him a Muslim. Nonetheless, I'll take it out of the
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Also, Hashim Thaci is being tried at the Hague for war crimes. Just because he said it, or any other politician said it, it doesn't make it true. There needs to be investigative reporting from an unbiased outlet. I suggest you voluntarily remove this conspiracy theory before I escalate within
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are trying to push a conspiracy theory that "Berisha has helped Milosevic" during the Yugoslav wars, allegations that are not based on facts, but rather on statements from a Kosovo politician (who interestingly enough now faces trial for war crimes in the Hague). This is basically what got me
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Taking this discussion to the Talk page. I kindly maintain that a politician's statements (in this case Hashim Thaci's) should never be taken face value and be added under the Controversies section of another politician's BLP. Is there any other evidence, journalistic investigation, etc. that
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I reviewed your talk page and this discussion. There's clearly nothing I can say that will get you to relent on trying to remove it. What I will say is that you were warned by an admin who reviewed the content and found that it was acceptable. I'll simply copy what they said at your talk
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and many others. But as I said, I prefer to stay away from in-depth editing of active politician articles, as I prefer not to use the media or newspapers mentioned here for such issues. They simply do not have the independence needed to be used for such issues.
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870:"Albania is a country of 60-75% Atheists/Agnostics" is proven false by the responses of Albanian people in the 2011 Census (by the way, if one looks to UserDimror's page one will see that he is suspected of sockpuppetry).
1385:, a Knowledge admin, considers the removing of unsourced claims that Berisha has aided Milosevic, "edits didn't break any rules". I kindly maintain that these are political attacks of one politician against another. If @
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1431:- I saw you reverted my edits and included the conspiracy theory Fieraku and SGRedark are pushing on this BLP. Do you have anything that supports what's claimed, or just going around and spreading misinformation?
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https://web.archive.org/web/20150121173227/http://www.ilga-europe.org/home/guide_europe/country_by_country/albania/albanian_right_wing_pm_fully_supports_lgbt_berisha_first_pm_officially_to_meet_representatives2
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country of 60-75% Atheists/Agnostics" is proven false by the responses of Albanian people in the 2011 Census (by the way, if one looks to UserDimror's page one will see that he is suspected of sockpuppetry).
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Hashim Thaçi was the political leader of the Kosovo Liberation Army. His words are notable, whether you like it or not. Besides he added that these statements reflected the official position of the Kosovo
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Hashim Thaci is facing trial in the Hague for war crimes. He has no credibility and his words are just political attacks. Do you have any other evidence that Berisha aided Milosevic, or just cheap talk?
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unless said otherwise. And I don't mean by it, that they hate god/religions, but they simply are not committed to any religion. For example, I personally am not committed to any religion, as an Albanian.
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haven't found many information online about this event, FierakuiVĂ«rtet if you are reading this, I suggest adding Berisha's reaction of this controversy for the sake to avoid another dispute :p
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So, for those who are changing his religion, please discus in here before you change it. This means to bring facts to the table where he identifies himself as a Muslim. Thank you.--
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There is something contradicting in this article, how can one be an atheist and a Muslim at the same time. It is suggested in this article. Friday 16 February 2007 19:57 (CET)
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Hashim Thaci is right or wrong a "notable leader" does not simply mean he is right. We would have to see official documents with the logic of not using specific news papers.
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I've given a source that says he is Muslim. I never assumed he is Muslim because of his name; I assumed he is Muslim because that's what it says in the source I provided.
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http://www.ilga-europe.org/home/guide_europe/country_by_country/albania/albanian_right_wing_pm_fully_supports_lgbt_berisha_first_pm_officially_to_meet_representatives2
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said. There are plenty of official sources reporting these facts and we can simply add them. Therefore, I'm ok with deleting the Hashim Thaçi part. Do you agree too?
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I think they have made the same mistake from his name or maybe because they want him to be so (you know, the site seems to be a Saudi one). Anytime when there is a
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Sali Berisha has never declared his religion. Just because of his name, it doesn't mean that he is a Muslim, at least this rule doesn't apply to Albanians, as user
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supports Thaci's statement in connection with Berisha aiding Milosevic. If not, it would seem to me such a statement is fabricated and section needs to be deleted.
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The edits in question are sourced and providing a quotation from another important politician. That does not break the rules. If you think it violates BLP, go to
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migrated there from somewhere else? I'm not sure the sentence is necessary, since the next sentence doesn't explain the affront or talk about its consequences.
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He somewhat affronted Ramiz Alia, the country's Communist leader, with such a need in a tense meeting Alia had with intellectuals in the middle of that year
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blocked, from a substance perspective. Could you provide guidance on how I can keep these editors from including conspiracy theories on BLPs?
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seem to have avoided my question I asked you. How does Hashim Thaci prove to be a “notable leader” give you proof that it’s reliable info?
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I think my latest edit is a good solution: it does not state that he is or is not Muslim, but that he has been called a Muslim by others. --
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1361:- I am maintaining the highest standards and holding editors accountable. If you don't like it and get triggered, that's not my problem.
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Knowledge is a collaborative effort. You can't just tell people to piss off, as you've telling me now, because you disagree with them.
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believes this is the bar of what constitutes a Controversy for a Knowledge BLP, I disagree and maintain that the bar is set pretty low.
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I think you should start reading Knowledge policies because it seems you didn't understand what is considered notable, and what not.
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When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
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sounding name.The Albanian page also does not mention his religion so I dont think why should the english page should mention it.
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You are pushing conspiracy theories, simple as that. Also, please learn proper English, it is not "political", but "politician".
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has a broader definition than 3RR and continuing to revert content after being blocking for that same action is unwise at best.
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https://web.archive.org/web/20100218164846/http://www.keshilliministrave.al/index.php?fq=brenda&r=&gj=gj1&kid=17
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so as to become familiar with the guidelines. If you would like to participate, please join the project and help with our
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if you even belive in god) so it would be very confusing for international readers Vargmali 20:57, 10 February 2013 (UTC)
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Top Channel is the most reliable media outlet in the country. Gazeta 55, Syri tv and exit.al are blatantly pro-Berisha.
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Politico. They've removed this paragraph for no reason, and so far have gotten away with it. Knowledge admins, such as @
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we are not trying to prove anything here. Just reporting a notable statement(allegation) as per wp. Do you understand?
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Regarding Albanians (probably in general, but lets say for Albanians because of the specific case), one by default is
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infobox and put a sentence or two about how he is seen as a Muslim by many sources in the 'Personal life' section. --
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We don't have to. I just pointed out to him because of his explanation in the talk page, anyways this may help you:
1581:. He was the political leader of the Kosovo Liberation Army and president of the Republic of Kosovo, his words are
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Sali Berisha is a Royalist Party Affiliate according to valid articles. Does anyone have more information on this?
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to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
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to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
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There's something for sure. His son, Shkelzen, is absolutely a Muslim. He is seen praying in Mosques many times
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We are not proving anything. We are just reporting allegations from a notable figure per Knowledge's policies.
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convince others on the talk page with said sources and with an attitude that doesn't push people away
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http://www.foxnews.com/world/2012/10/17/albania-to-bring-home-from-france-remains-exiled-king-zogu/
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before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template
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stop repeatedly removing content after being warned by an admin until consensus is established
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https://web.archive.org/20110129081621/http://news.yahoo.com:80/s/csm/20110124/wl_csm/358534
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must be followed. Who said what, who reported what and so on must be cited. Please use
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There's also an article here that says Berisha is a Muslim (in the third paragraph):
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Unfortunately I don't seem to find anything regarding Sali Berisha's religion on the
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There's also an article here that says Berisha is a Muslim (in the third paragraph):
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Thanks, I will definitely look into them. If you have others please add it in here.
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stop instantly attacking everybody (you've made several remarks towards me already)
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Do you still have the sources I sent you? If you need some help just let me know.
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Yes, that's the link. It's right at the bottom of page 146. This is what it says:
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http://www.keshilliministrave.al/index.php?fq=brenda&r=&gj=gj1&kid=17
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Notable statements and reports published by reliable sources might be added but
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recognize this is not proving anything, just reporting on a notable statement
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that I'm following, am I right? I can't find anything relevant on that link--
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as you said. What got you blocked is that you broke the tree-revert rule.
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after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add
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http://www.novamakedonija.com.mk/DetalNewsInstant.asp?vestInstant=26492
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I will copy-paste this to your user talk page as a final warning too.
726:...the president, who himself is a Muslim, argued that the country....
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The part that says he is Muslim is at the very bottom of page 146. --
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I also kindly invite everyone reading this to review the language @
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to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
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Knowledge in a way that will harm your reputation as an editor.
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in the banner shell. Please resolve this conflict if possible.
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This article has been given a rating which conflicts with the
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from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially
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Yes of course, I have them in the history of my talk page;)
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When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the
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Could you please provide some proof that says he is atheist.
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Low-importance biography (politics and government) articles
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for additional information. I made the following changes:
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This is same guy who pushed for Albania's entry into the
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Start-Class biography (politics and government) articles
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I have just added archive links to one external link on
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general.The claim that he is muslim comes only from his
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congratulates people of that religion because of the
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Unfortunately, we can't use User:Dimror's as proof.
992:http://news.yahoo.com/s/csm/20110124/wl_csm/358534
2012:C-Class articles with conflicting quality ratings
1894:On second thought, I think it is better to do as
1458:You don't get to keep removing something because
253:, an attempt to co-ordinate articles relating to
1381:I'm leaving this here for everyone to see that @
267:. If you are new to editing Knowledge visit the
1500:provide sources that dispute the info mentioned
1140:This message was posted before February 2018.
1008:This message was posted before February 2018.
1324:Do not mock others for their English aptitude
576:Yes, that true. I think that Albania entered
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2002:Politics and government work group articles
1305:I'm running low on patience. A few things:
488:Below I'll try to give you a better anwser:
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1649:It is what I did. Read the paragraph.
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1090:. Please take a moment to review
962:. Please take a moment to review
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759:He prayed in the mosk in 1991 --
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1930:Ok, then I am removing it.
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908:Royalist Party Affiliate
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1079:External links modified
951:External links modified
342:Changed "Mr." to "Dr."
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1152:regular verification
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966:. If necessary, add
582:Economical Interests
1142:After February 2018
1010:After February 2018
1001:parameter below to
586:Religious Interests
250:WikiProject Albania
1196:InternetArchiveBot
1147:InternetArchiveBot
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416:-- Lucy Kemnitzer
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641:Thank you.--
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1546:presidency.
1512:take it to
1494:So then...
628:Eid ul-Fitr
580:because of
72:Start-class
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1946:S.G ReDark
1918:S.G ReDark
1890:S.G ReDark
1869:S.G ReDark
1854:S.G ReDark
1705:Albwiki001
1691:Albwiki001
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1363:Albwiki001
1303:Albwiki001
1289:Albwiki001
1267:S.G ReDark
1251:Albwiki001
1246:S.G ReDark
1203:Report bug
929:References
845:Local hero
810:Local hero
731:Local hero
666:Local hero
476:Local hero
462:Local hero
273:open tasks
265:discussion
1755:Gazeta 55
1621:. Thanks
1587:reporting
1186:this tool
1179:this tool
1126:dead link
1060:Cheers. —
1054:this tool
1047:this tool
916:Twillisjr
895:Piro ilir
161:Biography
101:Biography
40:libellous
1839:Gjondeda
1783:Gjondeda
1192:Cheers.—
970:cbignore
790:Vargmali
761:Vinie007
502:Agnostic
420:Religion
1898:BES-Art
1873:I will
1818:BES-Art
1763:Exit.al
1759:Syri tv
1748:Bes-ART
1725:Bes-ART
1687:Bes-ART
1670:Bes-ART
1645:Bes-ART
1626:Bes-ART
1615:WP:NPOV
1589:them.
1579:nothing
1514:WP:BLPN
1452:WP:BLPN
1130:tag to
1092:my edit
1070::Online
999:checked
964:my edit
786:Islamic
344:Rmpfu89
319:on the
278:Albania
256:Albania
222:C‑class
219:Albania
1583:really
1518:WP:BLP
1350:(talk)
1310:WP:3RR
1122:Added
978:nobots
692:kedadi
643:kedadi
441:kedadi
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372:Dimror
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1707:and @
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1396:and @
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696:talk
688:link
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459:. --
445:talk
390:talk
311:High
150:and
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