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thoughtfully and eloquently WHY he opposes that change, as I have. San Jose and
Silicon Valley are largely synonymous because they have shared culture, jobs, and history. That is in no way the case for Oakland and SF (as an alum of an East Bay school for undergrad and grad school, I can tell you without a shadow of the doubt that Oakland and SF are different as day and night.) I'm from the Valley, so I think it's fair to say that I know about my region's culture far better than you do. Just because annexation occurred in the 1800s does not make it any different than annexation that occurred postwar. It's still annexation, and baffling to suggest that because it occurred more recently it makes a city less of "a city". And oh yes, I could go on forever about how neighborhoods like Alum Rock, College Park, and Little Portugal have more cultural cache than the Mission. But that's for another day, and is also intensely subjective. I'm not losing the argument by saying that. Your definition of "cultural cache" may be history and books. Mine are the people who actually live in these areas. And if you have beef with that, check out San Jose's Flea Market on a weekend and you'll get what I'm saying. And no one is saying SF doesn't have cultural cache. All we're saying is that SJ and so many areas of the Bay have just as much cultural cache as SF does. SF does not rule the roost in that area, and that's why it can't be
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not just the core city of the "peninsula" as
Cristiano ridiculously asserted. Most of its commuters come from the East Bay, which is why the East Bay is part of its metro. There is a reason that the Bay Bridge carries 250,000 cars a day and that BART carries 450,000 people (outside of the pandemic) and it's nearly all related to people traveling into SF. A lot of this conversation seems to deeply misunderstand how other metros work. There are people in the New York area who have no real, regular connection to New York. Many, many, people in the Boston area who never go to Boston. That does not change anything. San Francisco functions like most of other core cities in terms of commuter population, in terms of transit ridership, in terms of density within the city and near it. It's telling that there has been no attempt whatsoever to directly respond to data, but instead to respond with fuzzy notions about how people in Castro Valley might feel about SF (not entirely sure how Oakland could be more their core city either since downtown Oak and SF are literally right next to each other and connected by a bridge). San Francisco should be listed first and to do otherwise is to literally misrepresent how the Bay Area functions.
1618:
South Bay (which has a larger population than SF and the
Peninsula combined) and parts of lower Alameda and San Mateo counties, similarly as Oakland is for the East Bay, many of whose more than 2.4 million residents, spread out in the valleys and over the Diablo range have no regular, real connection to SF, while Oakland remains their closest major hub for government, life, etc. And by regions, SF and the Peninsula is the second smallest in population, after the North Bay. SF has its reputation, no doubt, but the reality of the Bay Area is that not only is SF not a solid core city like NYC, but its not even the hub of either of the two largest regions of the Bay Area (size + population), which are the South Bay and East Bay. The reality is that the task of assessing one city over the other as the "true core city" of the Bay Area is moot. While SF has its historical pedestal, SJ certainly has its own pedestal as well. The point Binksternet made on the significance of SF Chinatown is irrelevant and says absolutely nothing to SF's influence as a city, just like how San Jose having the largest
1966:
arguments are murky at best. Also, saying that "most" residents think of SF as a center (followed by SJ and
Oakland) is to be completely frank, disingenuous. It assumes your opinion of the area is everyone else's. Residents of Oakland and San Jose would disagree entirely that SF is anything but a center for their region and their lives, and do not list the cities in that order as you do. That argument you make about San Jose being large only because it annexed area? San Francisco and Oakland have annexed numerous areas, too. Every city has. Brooklyn wasn't formally part of NYC until hundreds of years after its initial founding. That doesn't make it any less of a city, and doesn't mean the cities haven't coalesced culturally and economically within the last 60 years. Your comment somewhat offensively suggests that annexed communities like Alum Rock and Willow Glen aren't really connected to the core of San Jose. To the contrary, as someone who grew up here, Alum Rock and Willow Glen are
2213:
feedback and that appears to be where the feedback stands. Previous conversations about this topic that are sometimes cited generally involved even fewer people than the six in this one. It is not acceptable for San Jose to remain listed first in the core cities list. It is counter to this conversation and misrepresents how the three major cities in the area function relative to the entire region. As has now been argued ad nauseam, none of the cities can be listed alone as they are all core cities in their own way, but San
Francisco is the one that most traditionally acts as a core from metro size to population density to transit usage to number of jobs. Not just within the city proper but within its metro. If alphabetical isn't workable then SF should be listed first in the list or there simply should not be a list.
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1/4 of the entire region's population. That by itself disproves your argument that commutes in the Bay Area are somehow centered around a single city for workday commutes. There is no other metro area in the entire continent that has that kind of commuter disconnect between two cities that share a region. Those of us who've lived in this region know that, so please don't call our assertions about our home "ridiculous". Having disproven your "commuter" point, we turn to the other metrics above. Culture: Not centered around SF. Business centers: Not centered around SF. News channels: 2 in SF (ABC/CBS), 1 in SJ (NBC), 1 in
Oakland (Fox). I could go on, but I think this makes the point. The Bay Area may have been centered around SF at one point in history. That point no longer exists. Bay Area is not SF.
1557:
Oakland is the center of Black culture, San Jose is arguably the center of the
Vietnamese and Hispanic populations, while San Francisco's minority communities have largely fled the city for others in the last 20 years. The center of the Filipino community is in Daly City, the center of the Afghan population is in Fremont. Oakland's cultural scene is just as world-class as San Francisco's. Silicon Valley's tech giants dwarf the startups in SF, SF's financial behemoths dwarf those of other regions. Most auto manufacturing is done not in SF, but in Sacramento or Fremont. BART headquarters is in Oakland, as is the headquarters of the entire UC system. Caltrain's headquarters is in San Carlos. Regional governance is also nowhere near centralized enough to call SF the Bay Area's "first" city.
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article? Because from my perspective they would add visual clutter while not actually conveying anything of import. In fact, the current Bay Area article is the only one I've seen that even attempts to explain the chaotic mess of definitions, and so I don't see the benefit of adding to the chaos by introducing clutter. The "definitions" section of the article already serves its purpose by explaining why the Bay Area's boundary lines are messy and controversial, highlighting the most commonly accepted local 9-county definition, and introducing a few other important definitions including MSAs and CSAs. I feel like this is enough. This is an article about the Bay Area writ large, not about how the OMB divvies up the Bay Area and surrounding counties and when they did so.
3148:, the guidelines reference an example involving a South Park episode, a real space ship, and the death of a fictional character in the episode. It says, "The overall importance of the piece of information depends on the situation." The death of the fictional character may be mentioned in the article on the South Park episode and the fictional character's article, but not in the article for the real space ship. It's the same situation here; the MSA and CSA articles are here to explain the details of MSA and CSA delineations and their various elements. That level of detail is not relevant here in the Bay Area article. And there is no need to create a "new" MSA or CSA article to showcase this. --
3095:: A tabular representation is reasonable; I would've gone for the same approach but didn't have time to put together the population columns, so thanks for putting that together. The codes probably are a bit much, but the metropolitan divisions are worth keeping, perhaps as another column. We could add another column for the date on which each county was added to the CSA, or perhaps a footnote explaining that bit. I understand the desire to keep this article high-level, but that's an argument for bringing back the MSA articles, not for barring this information from non-list articles altogether. For perspective,
2156:
re-reverting the page to your preferred edit. A good move would have been to keep
Cristiano's revert, contact him on his talk page so he could join the conversation on this talk page. But what is done is done. I appreciate your passion for this topic and for our respectful and spirited debate on this issue. I can clearly tell you care about articles regarding this region, and you will always have my respect for that. Thanks for the teamwork, and hopefully we'll get a resolution to this soon that we can all agree on.
2141:
either before or after I made the change until now. The change was then reverted despite the fact that the discussion has and continues to remain in favor of it. Changing it despite being outvoted because you and one other editor personally consider your points superior is a decision I would see as unilateral. But I could be wrong (I certainly have been before in life) and that's why arbitration exists. Again, I truly appreciate you presenting a reasonable alternative, whether it ends up as temporary or permanent.
3127:, this is information "broadly defined as not important." Metropolitan divisions and their codes is not something a general resource encyclopedia would contain, that information is better left in Census Bureau guidebooks. We wouldn't include the birth years of the 49ers players in this article, and quite frankly, I feel that 49ers players' birth dates are as relevant as the date each metropolitan region was added to the CSA. Your argument that the NY metro area lists the metropolitan division fails
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1518:, addresses a subset of this issue when he talks about the various Chinatowns across the USA. He says, "Although the importance of San Francisco as the cultural, social, political and economic center of 'Chinese America' is beyond dispute, the city and county of San Francisco never contained the majority of the Chinese-ancestry population in California, much less in the United States." So here is SF exerting its cultural power despite having fewer people.
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density. SF has more historic landmarks, SJ has more natural sites and open space. It goes on and on. I would recommend listing the cities as "Largest cities", as its clear and purely factual and does not invite confusion on status, reputation, and so on that is associated with the term "core city", but its disingenuous to claim SF as the undivided core of the Bay when it is far from that.
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2232:, I would ask all to consider the alphabetical choice as a meeting in the middle of all sides. Alphabetical is, even if not desirable, undoubtedly the most neutral way to list the cities. I appreciate the passion of all those who participated in this conversation and their thoughtful consideration and hope we can move forward with this edit without a reprisal of previous arguments. Best,
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major Bay Area city that doesn't have a negative commuter population. It also has as many jobs as
Oakland and San Jose combined. It's true that most people in Silicon Valley remain in SV to work, but San Jose and Silicon Valley are not synonymous with each other, and if you were to claim they were to someone in Palo Alto or Mountain View they would probably laugh at you.
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2562:, I attempted to solve this problem by outlining the CSA and its constituent statistical areas (MSAs and metropolitan divisions). If these statistical areas aren't notable enough for their own articles, they're at least notable enough to explain in this article without making readers piece together the details from individual county articles. In
2030:
transit usage, cultural relevance (SF is the third most popular US setting for movies after NY and LA, followed by
Chicago in 4th), and simple history. San Francisco's metro includes the majority of the Bay Area's population for a reason. The FTC lists this as the San Francisco-Oakland-San Jose media market for a reason.
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divisions, the MSA codes, and the date when each county was added to the CSA. I would argue that none of this information is relevant for an article related to the Bay Area. I also object to creating a new CSA or MSA article just to show those extra three points as they are not notable enough to warrant a separate article.
3400:
I strongly agree with Haha169 here. I think the table makes much more sense, is significantly easier to read, and conveys more useful information than the bulleted list. The counties and their populations provide more valuable info than simply listing out the metropolitan divisions within each of the
3232:
Including the metropolitan divisions (which for the most part already aligns with the MSAs) would just serve to clutter the chart, while the date added isn't actually relevant in any way and would require hunting down the sourcing in the federal register. The MSA codes don't add anything substantive.
2594:
I feel like the list gives undue weight to the delineations of the MSAs and CSAs, which while relevant is already explained in the article. My reasoning is that the scope of the article is already large; the goal is to cover many topics succinctly, and the long, bulleted list serves to single out the
2025:
I go to San Jose all the time and never called it "LA North" or a bland, suburban community. I love LA, too, and take slight offense at the notion that being LA North is a bad thing, lol. That is not what we're discussing here. But if you're trying to say that Willow Glen is as culturally relevant as
1970:
for this city (just as every other community in San Jose is), and they define this city's culture. San Franciscans have this idea of San Jose as being "LA North" and just a jumbled patchwork of bland suburban communities. Come down here and see these richly diverse communities for yourself before you
1908:
There are 762 such companies in the world as of July 2021. 385 of them are in the United States. 111 of them are in San Francisco (by far the most of any city in the world and certainly more than the rest of the cities in the Bay Area combined). Only 8 of them are in San Jose. We should also probably
1847:
And even as much as Silicon Valley and tech have taken center economic stage in the region, the center of gravity has been moving towards San Francisco over the past twelve years or so. See this up-to-date and comprehensive list of privately held companies worth more than a billion dollars. These are
1791:
Listing SJ first in the core city list misrepresents the Bay Area just as much as listing ONLY SF would. It is reasonable, normal, and fitting with how the area functions, how it is perceived by the world, and how it's seen by residents of the area to list San Francisco, San Jose, and Oakland in that
1672:
Most people from SJ, a city with a pop of 1 million+, never go to SF for work as you suggest the vast majority of Bay Areans do. They stay within the Valley and go to Palo Alto, or South SJ, or Mountain View, or North SJ, or Santa Clara, or Fremont. Santa Clara County alone is 2 million some people--
1420:
with this change. I have lived in the Bay Area for 49 years and love Oakland and also San Jose, which wins the population prize and has its own rich history. I work all over Northern California. But San Francisco remains dominant in Northern California history, image, cultural significance, tourism,
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Personally, I think a good compromise would be to have something like the Portland table, with perhaps a new column that shows which constituent MSA the county is in. A table like this both conveys more information than the bulleted list and takes up less space: (data fields are incorrect, will need
2463:
That's easy enough to do. Just change the last sentence of the third paragraph in "Boundaries" to: "...and one CSA which includes all nine counties plus neighboring San Benito, Santa Cruz, San Joaquin, Merced, and Stanislaus counties. Merced and Stanislaus Counties were added to the CSA in September
2268:
Since no one is disputing the "Core Cities" and "Other Municipalities" categories, why not keep those categories and then alphabetize within them? That way we can avoid having a long list that hides the three core cities, while also going by a neutral alphabet system. So within Core Cities, it would
2108:
I agree with you on arbitration, nor was there any point where I suggested I was making a unilateral decision, as you did when you first made these changes. Making the list alphabetical means scrapping the entire core cities and the list of cities underneath, and creating a list of 5-6 major cities.
2071:
And "least dense" urban ring of the Bay? Fremont is less dense than the Valley. Vast portions of the Peninsula are less dense than the Valley. Most cities in Texas are less dense than the Valley. San Jose actually has a fairly respectable density level for a North American city, at some 7k-8k people
2033:
Lastly, you previously suggested that a change you made to the SF wikipedia article came about by consensus. I looked at that. There were only four people in that conversation and one of them disagreed with you. How is that consensus, while 4 vs 2 editors in favor of listing SF first in this article
2008:
I mentioned the unicorn startup list just to illustrate how much tech has spread to San Francisco, to the point where the majority of new tech companies have been founded there over the last decade, not to suggest it had overtaken Silicon Valley. But I could also list lots of popular companies in SF
1773:
There are a lot of arbitrary political boundaries in the Bay Area, much more so than in other places. SJ's population is entirely an artifact of this. If Oakland were to gobble up 170 urban and suburban square miles directly around it then it'd have in the range of 2,000,000 people. Meanwhile, if SJ
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transit riders and police officers and fire fighters and airplane flights. It is not the only core city, but it is the first among equals and I know of very few people in the Bay Area who aren't SJ wikipedia article editors who would dispute that. I say that as someone who has lived here for decades.
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SF's airport carries four times as many passengers, its main transit system carries over five times as many people (without even counting BART, which gets the majority of its ridership from people traveling in SF and would boost this to more like seven times), it has 200,000 more jobs, significantly
1203:
It's a little bizarre to have a city with a negative commuter population listed first as the core city in an area. When we're not in the middle of a pandemic, San Francisco's population increases by 21% when people are at work and San Jose's decreases by 5%. SF is in line with most big cities, while
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less prominent than the first section that's typical of metropolitan area articles. Nevertheless, I think this information is important for avoiding confusion about these statistical areas. For better or worse, this article is the only one that attempts to explain the chaotic attempts to define and
3247:
Again, I'm not insisting that the MSA codes be retained. They're easily confused with other codes like ZIP codes and don't serve much purpose beyond technical procedures. I just happened to copy-paste lines that included them from the source and didn't bother to remove them, but I've gone ahead and
2600:
I recognize that other "metropolitan area" articles generally do have some kind listing of counties in their respective MSAs or CSAs; but the thing is that this article does too. There is both a map in the infobox and a paragraph that lists the counties. I'm not necessarily against having some kind
2429:
Glad to see the creator of the CSA article supporting the merge. You said something about stats being hosted in the SFBA article -- the stats are pop., density, land area, and GDP, all of which I think is already hosted in the SFBA area either in the infobox or in the text of the "Economy" section.
2063:
And you're making my point by saying certain newer companies are in SF. That's true! Doesn't mean there aren't a ton of existing companies in SV as well. Newer does not make a place a "center". I could argue the exact opposite, that older companies are far more stable and therefore last longer than
2021:
I never suggested annexation makes SJ less of a city, just that it was unique in the Bay Area for covering so much land area. It is the least dense part of the urban ring that goes around the bay. Also, San Francisco has not annexed anything since the 1800s (not for lack of occasionally trying) and
1617:
with the change and agree with EndlessCoffee54. I am a native of the Bay Area (though not of either SF or SJ), and have lived in both cities and elsewhere in the Bay. To discredit the significance of population in assessing San Jose's status is to discredit the fact that SJ is the core city for the
3174:
I concur with User:Minh Nguyá»…n on this. The CSA and MSA information should be briefly mentioned somewhere in this article. In the alternative, the separate articles on the MSAs and CSA should be restored. Describing MSAs and CSAs as mere trivia reflects a fundamental lack of understanding of the
3058:
I removed the MSA codes and the MSA division-level delineations, I don't think that level of detail is in-scope for a general encyclopedic article on the Bay Area writ large. This table serves as a good quick visual and summary table for those looking to identify the names of the counties quickly,
2284:
This seems perfectly reasonable to me. I say we do it. Sorry for my slow replies this month, work got crazy busy and I figured it couldn't hurt to give people plenty of time to write feedback. Now, unless there are any further thoughts on this I'm gonna put the Core Cities in alphabetical order at
2140:
A list of like this seems perfectly reasonable to me and I appreciate your efforts towards it here. To be blunt: I did not make this change unilaterally. I left it up on the Talk page for discussion for two weeks before changing it and there was no attempt at dissenting discussion on the Talk page
1951:
You are still comparing San Jose by itself to San Francisco. When taken together with Silicon Valley, the South Bay represents a commuter region with a chunk of the commuter population comparable to San Francisco in that it has a positive commuter population. The Valley's daytime population swells
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No one in this conversation has at any point disputed anything in my initial thread. San Francisco is the only one of the major cities in the Bay Area with a positive commuter population and this daytime population surge is in line with other major cities around the United States. San Francisco is
1451:
While I agree with San Francisco's historical cache, I think that is too subjective of a metric. We can have endless debates, as people on all these Bay Area pages have had, over which city reigns supreme. In my opinion, that debate is pointless given the scattered and uncentered nature of the Bay
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San Francisco has the region's primary and by far busiest airport, its primary and by far busiest transit agencies, numerous embassies and consulates, the Supreme Court of California and many of the HQs for federal agencies within CA, is one of the most visited cities in the US, and is the primary
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San Francisco has a normal, and even notably high, core city daytime population increase of 21% from commuters. San Jose sees a -5.5% drop, making it the only major city in the US with a negative daytime population (the word city, in fact, is generally not the word we use when labeling places that
1216:
My goal here is not to slam San Jose, which is obviously a core city of the area (and a place I very much like), but the closer you get to SF and Oakland, the denser and more crowded (and more populated) the area becomes with very little exception. It makes the article inaccurate to imply that the
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The dates of inclusion are relevant because the table, once corrected, will display the 2010 populations of each county, potentially misleading a reader to determine the overall CSA's 2010 population by summing that column. (I understand the difficulty of presenting this information accurately in
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The dates of inclusion don't have to be part of the chart; they could just as well be part of the section that contains the chart, if that would be clearer. Here are the dates each MSA or county was added to the CSA or its predecessors, the San Francisco–Oakland–San Jose consolidated metropolitan
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There's also some solid precedent for it. NYC's boroughs are listed in alphabetical order. You could even argue that the alphabetical list best represents what our passionate discussion really gets at: the Bay Area is a unique place in which you could argue a number of different cities are "core"
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Aside from the ordering of names in the CSA, it does not reflect lived reality to list San Jose as the first "core" city of the Bay Area. The San Francisco Metro contains most of the Bay Area's population and counties. If SJ was the first core city of the Bay Area then the size of its metro would
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for the 2020 census that includes some counties for the first time.) I think we could indicate the dynamic nature of this CSA in an unintrusive way, by adding an asterisk to Merced, San Benito, and Stanislas counties under the "2010 Census" column, and perhaps by citing each of the rows with the
2212:
Totally reasonable. Alphabetical order is also not what I wanted. So where that leaves us is the majority of this conversation supports listing San Francisco first with two people arguing that consensus on that point only exists if they agree. I stepped away from this to allow plenty of time for
1699:
This does not ignore San Jose's contribution to the metro and my point about commuters was not disproven. I never said that everyone in the Bay Area commutes to San Francisco (which is not true, it's also not true of Atlanta or Chicago or any other core city), just that San Francisco is the only
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Academic articles and book reviews on cultural influence do not reflect lived reality, nor are they the sole arbiter of reality. And population is not the only metric I've cited. The truth is that no Bay Area city-- not SF, not SJ-- has a cultural, financial, or political monopoly on the region.
2155:
Excellent. I'll leave it up here for others to comment on before we make a change to the page. And I understand where you're coming from. I reverted to the original because the edit was relatively recent and you did get opposition from one user (Cristiano) which you should have noted instead of
2029:
Simple population is not the only objective number to look at for cities. Putting San Francisco first in a list of the three largest Bay Area cities reflects objective reality based on commute patterns (when directly comparing cities), population density both in the city and around it, tourism,
1965:
Your point also still ignores the arguments about culture, geography, land mass, total population, etc.-- all of which are equally important as commuter patterns and economy in determining what is a "center" of the Bay Area. And none of those swing in SF's favor, while the economic and commuter
1755:
I've never set out to list San Francisco as the only core city, just as the first one in a list of three. Culture is not completely centered around SF, but it's still the first cultural point ahead of Oak and SJ. Which we can certainly dive into. Just as it has more TV stations and tourists and
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There is a considerable inertia built up by the previous 150 years of power in SF in terms of cultural influence, and SJ may never catch up. It's not just about who has the most people. (Fun fact: SJ in the 1970s welcomed so many new people that the school district went broke in 1983.) Counting
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I suppose I still don't understand the argument for why simply listing out the MSAs (as my table does) isn't sufficient. Why the need for metro divisions (which essentially mirrors the MSAs in almost every instance)? Why the need for the CSA entry date? What purpose do these facts bring to the
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into this article. The infobox and definitions section of this article already reference the CSA, and frankly, the CSA article substantively does not have anything else that is not covered in this article. Even the CSA article's "see also" links link back to the Bay Area. Additionally, looking
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This completely ignores San Jose's contribution to the Metro. Let's delve into the commuter argument you make (which should never be the only metric used to list cities in an infobox). Multiple studies continually show that Silicon Valley's population is largely insular and commutes within the
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in the country and largest Viet population in the world outside of Vietnam doesn't mean anything about San Jose as a city, but says more to the Viet-American community as an entity or Chinese-American community as an entity. SF gets more tourists, SJ has more people. SJ has more land, SF more
1586:
My point being that no city has a "capital" cache on this diverse region. There is no parallel anywhere in the United States or Canada. And this is why you can't list SF, San Jose, or any other city "first". And it's why I'm arguing for the removal of the entire core cities list in favor of a
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You're misunderstanding my point. The table that I made clearly shows which counties are in the CSA as well as the various MSAs that make up the CSA, which I believe addresses your concern. What I am objecting to is by taking it a step further and including columns regarding the metropolitan
1370:
with this change and am reverting the page back to its original until there is further consensus on this matter. The Bay Area has no true "core" city. San Francisco and San Jose are completely different areas, as is Oakland, and they have their own cultural caches separate from each other. I
1220:
Using the simple ordering within the CSA label to determine the "core" city order here makes no sense in an article about a region that doesn't even include all the counties in the CSA. SF should be listed first both in the sidebar and in the Bay Area footer that is attached to most Bay Area
2051:
If you look more closely, I was not the one who made that change. It was another editor who did so, and there happened to be a lone dissenter in that process. Here, you have two dissenting. That's far more significant that I'm joined by someone else who opposes this change AND has explained
2004:
I continue to talk about SF and San Jose because that's what this discussion is about. Again, SJ and Silicon Valley are not synonymous. Saying that San Francisco by itself has has many jobs as well over a dozen cities covering hundreds of square miles all combined together is a point in San
1474:
All serious students of the Bay Area know that it has many important cities and no city totally dominates the region like New York, Chicago, Los Angeles, Denver and Atlanta do in their regions. But that does not mean that the region lacks its most important city and I contend that it is San
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A reader should be able to use this article to determine, say, which metropolitan statistical area San Mateo County belongs to. This article defined the CSA and mentioned the five MSAs but didn't define the MSAs. After separate articles about the combined statistical areas and metropolitan
1961:
tech companies are headquartered in the Valley. It is entirely subjective to say that "momentum" is headed to San Francisco when more people and companies left SF during 2020 than any other major city in California. If we're going to go with the momentum argument (which is again completely
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companies. The vast majority of established (not startup) tech companies are still in San Jose and Silicon Valley. Facebook is in Menlo Park, Oracle in Redwood Shores, Apple in Cupertino, EBay in San Jose. In fact, if we're going to go with your well-known argument (which IMO is incredibly
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Area. If you look at job centers and commute patterns, they're all over the place. San Francisco is great but it's not what New York or Chicago are to their respective metros (the end all, be all city). We had an entire discussion on this on the SF page itself when we chose to call it
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restores the section but moves it to the bottom of the article. I don't know if this fully addresses Haha169's concerns, but I'd welcome a discussion about how else to ensure that this information is reasonably accessible on Knowledge (XXG) without putting too much emphasis on it.
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To me, the most important thing is to ensure that the breakdown of counties by MSA is explicitly included somewhere in the article, such as in this table, not just implied as it was. I'm willing to concede the omission of metropolitan divisions if it makes the table easier to lay
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has, for example, but the current list you created is as long as the entire "Government and Politics" section. And quite frankly, is it necessary to have one bullet say "Merced metropolitan statistical area", and underneath it say "Merced County"? It takes up two lines and looks
2444:
I would like to see something new: the evolution of the CSA described in steps, starting with 11 counties, going to 12, then 14. So that's not really a merge, is it? The fact of the 12-county CSA was erased when editors updated to 14 counties. I understand it was 11 counties in
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removed the information, along with a historical detail that had previously been present in this article, in favor of a sentence that is hardly equivalent. Even if the MSA section gave too much prominence to this locally unaccepted scheme, I believe this was an overreaction.
1273:
The Bay Area becomes more populated and dense the closer you get to SF. I can lay all this out if needed, but I'm pretty confident everyone here knows that Oakland and Daly City are denser than Sunnyvale and Santa Clara (and both Sunnyvale and Santa Clara are denser than San
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There is a journal article that might be more accessible: "The Gabriel Moraga Expedition of 1806: The Diary of Fray Pedro Muñoz". It is a journal article in the Hunting Library Quarterly. It uses as its primary source, Fray Pedro Munoz's actual written account. It can found
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into this article, details about the MSAs were apparently removed from this article. That left no article on Knowledge (XXG) to explain which Bay Area counties are in which MSAs and no articles about the MSAs themselves – an anomaly among metropolitan areas.
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I agree that the Census Bureau's purely data-driven method of listing largest residential population as first in rankings is not something that always reflects the on-the-ground reality, as is the case here, and we shouldn't necessarily just follow along.
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Wanted to give this plenty of time for comment and it looks like there is no comment (at least so far). Shall we move forward with the alphabetical list on Monday? We can then all take our time considering whether or not that's the right permanent fix.
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Alphabetical isn't what I wanted (I would prefer a list of largest to smallest cities), but like Cowboywizard said, "A list of like this seems perfectly reasonable to me", it also seems reasonable to me, even if it's not my most preferable option. In
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Francisco's favor, not in San Jose's. Oakland, SF, and the inner East Bay are at least as tied together as Silicon Valley. I mean, downtown Oak and downtown SF are connected by a ten minute subway ride. Should I start lumping them all together here?
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that the main city of the area has always been SF. I think SF is the leader in progressive ideas, for instance in 1964 the first movement for legalization of marijuana started in SF, and in 1989 it was the first place in the world to declare itself a
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Again, my point stands. Metrics pointing to SF being the undisputed center of anything in the Bay Area beyond finance are murky, subjective, and up to individual POV. Facts on the ground and statistics show a dispersed region with multiple centers.
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These purely subjective tests are precisely why I propose we scrap the whole "core cities" listing, and just give either an alphabetical list of 5-6 major cities or list the top 5-6 by population. These are objective measures, not subjective ones.
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Your point is relevant, that San Jose and Silicon Valley are not the same thing. A lot of sources discuss how Silicon Valley has become the economic center as measured in this way or that way, but far fewer make the case about San Jose by itself.
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Your statement that SF shrank and SJ grew over the past year is in no way true. San Francisco and San Jose were in second and third place for population loss in 2020. At -1.42% and -1.3% respectively, neither of them lost all that many people:
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This all doesn't mean San Jose is not A core city, but San Francisco is THE first core city for all the reasons listed above, just as Manhattan has fewer people than Brooklyn, Queens, and the Bronx but is still clearly the core borough of New
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FYI, I am the creator of the CSA article, for reasons that seemed appropriate at the time. Some folks were trying to change the SFBA article into the CSA article, confusing the local nine-county definition with the larger federal definition.
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Looks like the table still has some errors towards the bottom. Only Merced and Stanislaus counties should have a †. The OMB bulletins don't explicitly state the changes; instead, you need to compare the document with the previous document:
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the Mission, you're losing that argument. You continue dismissing SF as a cultural center when it is, in fact, a cultural center for the US in ways that SJ simply is not (at least not at this time). This is not subjective. It is reality.
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I was never in favor of alphabetical order. Alpha order is always the last resort. An encyclopedia should provide more information than that, when possible, for instance listing things in chronological order, or order of importance, etc.
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Francisco. Take a look at a variety of generalst books about the history and culture of California, and you will consistently find much more attention paid to San Francisco than to San Jose or Oakland. That is not subjective. It is fact.
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MSAs. But if we are going to list out the divisions (again, unclear why we would since that information is not generally used anywhere but at the OMB) then I think it should also be done in Table Format and not as a long bulleted list.
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have negative daytime populations). San Francisco's job growth this decade has also been over four times higher than San Jose's, which means there is likely even more of a disparity now compared to this data from the 2010 census:
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SJ functions (in this one way) more like a busy exurb of greater Silicon Valley. Its percentage decrease is even slightly larger than Oakland's and it is the only major city in the US that has a negative daytime population.
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Additionally, it's very odd to treat CSAs and MSAs as the same thing, when they are very much not. They don't need separate articles again, but ideally the MSAs for the area would be listed in the sidebar for this article.
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Muñoz, Fray Pedro, et al. “The Gabriel Moraga Expedition of 1806: The Diary of Fray Pedro Muñoz.” Huntington Library Quarterly, vol. 9, no. 3, 1946, pp. 223–248. JSTOR, www.jstor.org/stable/3816007. Accessed 12 Nov.
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attempted to explain this when the edits were made, but was overridden unilaterally without any formal vote on the talk page. Per Knowledge (XXG) policy, the old revision stands until a new consensus is reached.
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subjective), SF was the only city in the Bay Area to see its average rents fall in price due to the lack of demand over the last year. Oakland and San Jose saw rents rise and population continued to increase.
3131:; just because another article does something is not an argument for doing so here. (And even the NY metro article doesn't even go into the detail of listing the dates when counties were added to the CSA).
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was the first to list San Benito as part of the San Jose–Sunnyvale–Santa Clara MSA. Since this table doesn't go back as far as the 2000 census, there's no need for a †on San Benito County. Sorry for the
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more visitors, and four times the population density. Most of the local TV stations (ABC, CBS, CW, PBS, Univision) are based in SF and the city's budget is nearly three times higher. I could go on.
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That's an interesting point I I hadn't thought of. In that case, we could just use an asterisk for those three counties to state that they were not in the CSA yet in 2010. Would that be sufficient? --
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I looked at the two OMB documents you sent over, and I didn't see anywhere where they listed additions to the CSA or anything like that. Did I miss it or could you point it out to me? --
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I made the updates. If it all looks good now, then the only thing left is to fill in the data and format the citations. I could look into doing that later when I have more time. --
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while at the same time, I hope, serves to include the MSA definitions that you want. I feel that this dual-use is much better than one simply listing out the MSA delineations. --
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Alright, it's been a week and there's been no comment on this. I'm going to give it three more days and make this change. This is primarily based on these factors (among others):
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Any other points made in this endless debate about SF vs SJ/SV (a point we have beaten to death over the last few days) don't further any arguments and are mostly subjective.
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Also, we should not lose track of the fact that the CSA was 12 counties at first, then 14 counties. We should not misrepresent the CSA as always having been 14 counties.
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3419:: There's no disagreement about using a table. I just included a bulleted list above for convenience, not because I want to see that exact presentation in the article.
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You do not get to unilaterally decide this. And it will need to be arbitrated if this continues. In the interim, we should absolutely make the list alphabetical.
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I agree with you. The "Moraga Explores the Valley", although likely an accurate precise of the Gabriel Moraga Expedition of 1806, is not Knowledge (XXG) reliable.
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both SF and Oakland are, in fact, the only cities in the US to have gained population since the end of WWII that also did not annex any land in the process.
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is a reliable source. I've read through wp:reliable and lack confidence that this source should be considered reliable. I look forward to hearing from you.
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discussed this issue in a talk page for the MSA article years ago, so pinging them here. I couldn't find anyone other discussion relevant to this issue. --
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Therefore, we don't list any city on top by matter of subjectivity. We use an agreed-upon objective metric, such as population or alphabetical order.
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Perhaps you could change my mind if you have a non-intrusive proposal on how to present the dates. But I still don't see why it is necessary.--
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Haha169, you removed the chronology, and now the reader might conclude (incorrectly) that the CSA has always included these listed entries.
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statistical area (CMSA) and standard consolidated statistical area (SCSA) and the San Francisco–Oakland standard metropolitan area (SMA):
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subdivide the Bay Area. In the absence of adequate detail about how the CSA is broken down, assumptions can take hold. For example, in
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OMB delineations for importance and give them such prominence over the other definitions or even other Bay Area topics in this article.
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into this article as well. I noticed that the MSA article suffers many of the same problems as the CSA, and none of the other MSAs at
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as the CSA article contains mostly redundant material, aside from stats. The CSA content can easily be hosted at the SFBA article.
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update the Economy section of this article to reflect SF's growing position in tech relative to and in tandem with Silicon Valley.
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2350:, I noticed that none of the top 10 (at least) CSAs have their own articles, but link to a "metro area" article for that region.
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on Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the ongoing discussions.
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This article is or was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment. Further details are available
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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The book "The Gabriel Moraga Expedition Of 1806: The Diary Of Fray Pedro Munoz" would be more appropriate for a reference.
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that have recently gone public that were recently on this list: Uber, Lyft, Pinterest, Square, Slack, Cloudflare, etc.
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go, in order: Oakland, San Francisco, San Jose; and then the Other Municipalities section would have their own list. --
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cultural center of NorCal. I recommend we scrap the whole section and just list major cities in alphabetical order.
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NOTE: This discussion began on the Teahouse page. It seemed that this discussion should be on the talk page for the
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ephemeral startups, thus making the Valley and SJ the economic center. But I don't say that. I say that they are
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Many thanks for the assistance. Improving the article was an easy manner using the kind assistance you provided.
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is an example of an MSA/CSA outline that lists metropolitan divisions in the very first section of the article.
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just like SF does, indicating a positive commuter area. That list you cited? It's heavily misleading. It's only
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You can read it free by creating an account with Jstor (it doesn't cost anything to create the Jstor account).
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on Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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Stanislaus County (aka Modesto MSA) and Merced County (Merced MSA) have been part of the CSA since
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recommend scrapping the entire "core city" section and just having a list of major cities instead.
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made "San Benito" unsearchable somehow. (Lesson: always consult the plain-text files first.) The
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for refugees. San Jose generally serves as a feeder city, though it is now larger in population.
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people isn't the last word on who is the "core" city. Author Daniel A. Cornford, writing in
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I am just pushing back on adding trivia to this article. In the second paragraph of
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You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. —
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mostly tech companies and a great many of them will go on to be publicly traded:
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Santa Cruz County has been part of the CSA since 1983, so it doesn't need a †.
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Valley. In fact, more people commute *to* Silicon Valley than live within it:
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per square mile. And lower density does not mean any place is less of a city.
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dropped down to its 50 square mile core it'd be a bit bigger than Fremont.
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importance of CSA and MSA-based data in the social sciences (especially
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I think that article has a non-notable topic, and should be redirected.
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were a country, it would be ranked sixteenth in the world in terms of
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https://www.jstor.org/stable/3816007?seq=1#metadata_info_tab_contents
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depending on which particular set of topics you're discussing.
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for perspective, because the back matter I'm arguing for is
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Combined_statistical_area#List_of_combined_statistical_areas
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San Jose–San Francisco–Oakland, CA Combined Statistical Area
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It's been six days; no one has commented against merging. --
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San Jose–San Francisco–Oakland, CA Combined Statistical Area
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Updating the table, collapsed the earlier version above:
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removed them from the article to avoid further confusion.
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For San Joaquin County (aka Stockton–Lodi MSA), compare
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I got the reference for San Benito County wrong because
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Template:Did you know nominations/San Francisco Bay Area
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Knowledge (XXG)'s spirit of compromise and cooperation
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Knowledge (XXG):WikiProject Urban studies and planning
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https://www.cbinsights.com/research-unicorn-companies
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Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment
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Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.
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Knowledge (XXG) level-5 vital articles in Geography
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Was there anything else that needs to be merged? --
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1312:would probably agree with your points He wrote in
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2341:I wanted to bring up a proposal to merge the
2318:A summary of the conclusions reached follows.
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4005:. U.S. Census Bureau. August 12, 2021.
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2494:Do you have any thoughts on merging
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960:on 6 January 2021. The result of
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104:New to Knowledge (XXG)? Welcome!
41:. If you can improve it further,
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1155:22:26, 12 November 2020 (UTC)
1056:16:24, 12 November 2020 (UTC)
907:and see a list of open tasks.
689:This article is supported by
684:San Francisco Bay Area portal
625:and see a list of open tasks.
508:and see a list of open tasks.
96:Put new text under old text.
4235:All WikiProject Cities pages
4180:GA-Class California articles
4106:18:37, 4 November 2022 (UTC)
3982:02:42, 12 October 2021 (UTC)
3441:Cincinnati metropolitan area
2529:15:27, 7 February 2021 (UTC)
2512:08:06, 7 February 2021 (UTC)
2474:04:01, 4 February 2021 (UTC)
2459:15:15, 3 February 2021 (UTC)
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2396:04:29, 3 February 2021 (UTC)
2378:10:10, 2 February 2021 (UTC)
2332:04:02, 8 February 2021 (UTC)
1516:Working People of California
1032:article and wonder if this
1010:08:38, 17 January 2022 (UTC)
3968:05:12, 8 October 2021 (UTC)
3904:03:07, 8 October 2021 (UTC)
3497:18:06, 7 October 2021 (UTC)
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3427:05:43, 6 October 2021 (UTC)
3411:22:44, 5 October 2021 (UTC)
3395:06:18, 5 October 2021 (UTC)
3368:00:53, 5 October 2021 (UTC)
3280:Contra Costa County: 1950–
3243:21:32, 4 October 2021 (UTC)
3189:17:02, 4 October 2021 (UTC)
3158:08:20, 4 October 2021 (UTC)
3107:06:54, 4 October 2021 (UTC)
3087:23:20, 3 October 2021 (UTC)
3069:21:15, 3 October 2021 (UTC)
2589:05:51, 3 October 2021 (UTC)
2279:01:50, 31 August 2021 (UTC)
2257:20:53, 12 August 2021 (UTC)
2242:19:01, 12 August 2021 (UTC)
2223:18:21, 12 August 2021 (UTC)
2109:This would look like this:
1456:cultural center instead of
919:WikiProject Cities articles
916:Template:WikiProject Cities
357:column on 5 November 2017 (
4251:
3320:Santa Clara County: 1983–
3310:San Joaquin County: 2009–
3257:New York metropolitan area
2208:16:12, 7 August 2021 (UTC)
2192:15:32, 7 August 2021 (UTC)
829:project's importance scale
657:project's importance scale
540:project's importance scale
511:Urban studies and planning
502:Urban studies and planning
458:Urban studies and planning
3677:
3559:
3529:2020 Density (per sq mi)
3345:Stanislaus County: 2018–
3330:Solano County: 1950–1963
3325:Santa Cruz County: 1983–
3300:San Benito County: 2013–
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2151:22:26, 19 July 2021 (UTC)
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1985:12:48, 19 July 2021 (UTC)
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1819:23:16, 18 July 2021 (UTC)
1802:22:13, 18 July 2021 (UTC)
1683:20:54, 18 July 2021 (UTC)
1652:19:21, 18 July 2021 (UTC)
1633:21:14, 16 July 2021 (UTC)
1597:14:53, 16 July 2021 (UTC)
1528:07:35, 16 July 2021 (UTC)
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1470:05:46, 16 July 2021 (UTC)
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1356:03:45, 14 June 2021 (UTC)
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134:Be welcoming to newcomers
4034:"OMB BULLETIN NO. 18-03"
4017:"OMB BULLETIN NO. 18-04"
3444:source I provided above.
3315:San Mateo County: 1950–
2601:of list similar to what
2538:Please do not modify it.
2312:Please do not modify it.
1333:05:52, 26 May 2021 (UTC)
1301:05:14, 26 May 2021 (UTC)
1238:02:10, 18 May 2021 (UTC)
764:United States of America
4140:GA-Class vital articles
3831:Santa Cruz–Watsonville
2985:Santa Cruz–Watsonville
2575:Special:Diff/1047905185
2564:Special:Diff/1044427203
2560:Special:Diff/1044054951
2550:statistical areas were
3275:Alameda County: 1950–
2285:the end of this week.
2056:cultural center, it's
1315:Imperial San Francisco
1030:San Francisco Bay Area
1022:San Francisco Bay Area
809:United States articles
669:
608:WikiProject California
568:San Francisco Bay Area
397:
370:San Francisco Bay Area
345:San Francisco Bay Area
129:avoid personal attacks
79:San Francisco Bay Area
27:San Francisco Bay Area
4022:. September 14, 2018.
3340:Sonoma County: 1983–
3290:Merced County: 2018–
988:. Student editor(s):
668:
431:on Knowledge (XXG)'s
424:level-5 vital article
395:
253:Auto-archiving period
154:Neutral point of view
57:: October 25, 2017. (
39:good article criteria
3779:Santa Rosa–Petaluma
3305:San Francisco: 1950
3285:Marin County: 1950–
2927:Santa Rosa–Petaluma
1391:User:Cristiano Tomás
751:United States portal
321:relevant style guide
317:varieties of English
159:No original research
3919:April 2018 bulletin
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3295:Napa County: 1983–
3251:I am well aware of
3179:) and business. --
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777:Articles Requested!
637:California articles
489:Architecture portal
319:. According to the
4098:Community Tech bot
4065:Community Tech bot
3753:Vallejo–Fairfield
3511:
3255:, but I mentioned
2898:Vallejo–Fairfield
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1016:Source reliability
986:on the course page
899:and various other
888:WikiProject Cities
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880:Cities portal
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720:United States
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695:(assessed as
694:
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185:
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178:
177:Find sources:
174:
173:
165:
164:Verifiability
162:
160:
157:
155:
152:
151:
150:
141:
137:
135:
132:
130:
126:
123:
121:
118:
117:
111:
107:
106:Learn to edit
103:
100:
95:
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91:
90:
86:
80:
76:
72:
71:
61:
56:
55:
48:
44:
40:
36:
35:
34:
28:
25:
22:
18:
17:
4091:
4081:
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4011:
3997:
3989:
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3874:
3848:
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3796:
3770:
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3718:
3695:
3669:
3646:
3623:
3600:
3577:
3566:Contra Costa
3551:
3507:
3446:
3437:
3433:
3417:Cowboywizard
3403:Cowboywizard
3384:
3380:
3260:
3037:
3008:
2979:
2950:
2921:
2892:
2863:
2837:
2808:
2782:
2756:
2730:
2704:
2687:Contra Costa
2675:
2612:to be fixed)
2580:
2573:
2557:
2548:
2537:
2486:
2383:
2352:
2340:
2317:
2311:
2308:
2287:Cowboywizard
2267:
2249:Cowboywizard
2215:Cowboywizard
2184:Cowboywizard
2180:
2143:Cowboywizard
2096:Cowboywizard
2077:
2065:
2057:
2053:
2036:Cowboywizard
2032:
2028:
2024:
2020:
2015:
2011:
2007:
2003:
1968:focal points
1967:
1958:
1953:
1911:Cowboywizard
1794:Cowboywizard
1644:Cowboywizard
1614:
1515:
1483:
1477:
1457:
1453:
1429:
1423:
1417:
1387:no consensus
1386:
1367:
1314:
1310:Gray Brechin
1293:Cowboywizard
1230:Cowboywizard
1227:
1223:
1219:
1215:
1211:
1206:
1202:
1198:
1035:
1019:
994:
978:
965:
939:
936:
886:
824:
788:Project Talk
776:
757:
690:
652:
616:
606:
535:
495:
439:WikiProjects
422:
368:
365:Did you know
364:
354:Did you know
352:
344:
343:A fact from
312:
308:
304:
297:
256:
238:
225:
219:
211:
204:
198:
192:
186:
176:
148:
73:This is the
52:
43:please do so
31:
30:
26:
4087:Eq-prob.jpg
3837:San Joaquin
3684:Santa Clara
3079:Binksternet
2991:San Joaquin
2820:Santa Clara
2521:Binksternet
2490:Binksternet
2451:Binksternet
2417:Binksternet
2403:Binksternet
2388:Binksternet
2364:Ladygaga328
2200:Binksternet
2124:Santa Rosa
1811:Binksternet
1520:Binksternet
1325:Binksternet
1221:articles.
901:settlements
359:check views
298:written in
202:free images
85:not a forum
4114:Categories
3990:References
3941:confusion.
3863:Stanislaus
3811:Santa Cruz
3658:San Benito
3210:Coolcaesar
3181:Coolcaesar
3146:WP:HTRIVIA
3125:WP:HTRIVIA
3020:Stanislaus
2962:Santa Cruz
2791:San Benito
2606:redundant.
1959:well-known
628:California
618:California
613:U.S. state
563:California
37:under the
3870:514,453 â€
3792:255,793 â€
3691:1,781,642
3688:1,936,259
3635:San Mateo
3629:18,629.1
3573:1,049,025
3570:1,165,927
3547:1,510,271
3544:1,682,353
3352:Sources:
2824:1,762,754
2765:San Mateo
2691:1,037,817
2662:1,494,876
2464:2018." --
2034:is not?
427:is rated
349:Main Page
142:if needed
125:Be polite
75:talk page
3883:Modesto
3701:1,499.7
3652:1,704.0
3583:1,626.3
3335:, 1983–
3121:User:Mxn
3043:Modesto
2649:Density
2346:through
2121:San Jose
1615:disagree
1368:disagree
1002:PrimeBOT
966:to merge
429:GA-class
313:traveled
240:Archives
110:get help
83:This is
81:article.
47:reassess
3974:haha169
3896:haha169
3867:552,878
3844:685,306
3841:779,233
3818:262,382
3815:270,861
3805:Merced
3789:281,202
3766:483,878
3763:488,863
3740:413,344
3737:453,491
3714:136,484
3711:138,019
3642:718,451
3639:764,442
3619:805,235
3616:873,965
3596:252,409
3593:250,666
3557:2,281.3
3540:Alameda
3526:Change
3517:County
3482:Haha169
3468:haha169
3387:haha169
3235:haha169
3150:haha169
3093:Haha169
3061:haha169
3024:478,551
2995:478,551
2966:478,551
2956:Merced
2937:478,551
2908:478,551
2879:411,620
2850:135,377
2795:478,551
2769:711,622
2743:870,887
2717:250,666
2658:Alameda
2643:Change
2634:County
2603:Porland
2568:Haha169
2504:haha169
2466:haha169
2432:haha169
2370:haha169
2356:Zzyzx11
2324:haha169
2271:haha169
2115:Oakland
2112:Fremont
1954:startup
1792:order.
1348:haha169
1171:Osomite
1149:Osomite
954:merging
827:on the
655:on the
538:on the
351:in the
309:defense
257:91Â days
208:WPÂ refs
196:scholar
3964:Nguyá»…n
3849:+13.7%
3785:Merced
3759:Sonoma
3733:Solano
3670:+16.2%
3665:55,269
3662:64,209
3606:504.1
3578:+11.1%
3552:+11.4%
3493:Nguyá»…n
3451:Nguyá»…n
3423:Nguyá»…n
3364:Nguyá»…n
3103:Nguyá»…n
3038:+29.9%
3009:+29.9%
2980:+29.9%
2951:+29.9%
2933:Merced
2922:+29.9%
2904:Sonoma
2893:+23.6%
2875:Solano
2864:+22.7%
2838:+23.9%
2809:+29.9%
2783:+31.9%
2757:+47.0%
2731:+36.2%
2705:+24.8%
2676:+42.3%
2585:Nguyá»…n
2552:merged
1478:Cullen
1424:Cullen
1274:Jose).
1177:Hu Nhu
1067:Hu Nhu
1048:Hu Nhu
1040:Hu Nhu
910:Cities
893:cities
852:Cities
793:Alerts
435:scale.
180:Google
54:Review
4037:(PDF)
4020:(PDF)
3962:Minh
3880:369.6
3875:+7.5%
3854:559.6
3828:608.5
3823:+3.2%
3802:145.1
3797:+9.9%
3776:310.3
3771:+1.0%
3750:551.8
3745:+9.7%
3727:Napa
3724:184.4
3719:+1.1%
3696:+8.7%
3647:+6.4%
3624:+8.5%
3601:+3.9%
3589:Marin
3491:Minh
3449:Minh
3421:Minh
3362:Minh
3101:Minh
3033:21.6%
3030:51.5%
3027:54.7%
3004:21.6%
3001:51.5%
2998:54.7%
2975:21.6%
2972:51.5%
2969:54.7%
2946:21.6%
2943:51.5%
2940:54.7%
2917:21.6%
2914:51.5%
2911:54.7%
2888:25.0%
2885:48.6%
2882:51.1%
2869:Napa
2859:24.2%
2856:46.9%
2853:56.2%
2833:21.7%
2830:45.6%
2827:46.5%
2804:21.6%
2801:51.5%
2798:54.7%
2778:19.4%
2775:51.3%
2772:50.7%
2749:55.6%
2746:62.4%
2726:18.2%
2723:54.4%
2720:61.5%
2713:Marin
2700:21.8%
2697:50.4%
2694:58.5%
2671:14.1%
2668:56.4%
2665:54.6%
2646:Area
2583:Minh
2445:2002.
2384:Merge
1418:agree
1286:York.
1127:2020.
956:with
897:towns
416:This
305:color
223:JSTOR
184:books
138:Seek
4102:talk
4069:talk
3978:talk
3950:2013
3946:2009
3900:talk
3707:Napa
3675:46.2
3472:talk
3435:out.
3407:talk
3391:talk
3261:much
3239:talk
3185:talk
3154:talk
3083:talk
3065:talk
2846:Napa
2752:8.6%
2652:MSA
2525:talk
2508:talk
2470:talk
2455:talk
2436:talk
2421:talk
2407:talk
2392:talk
2374:talk
2360:and
2328:talk
2291:talk
2275:talk
2253:talk
2238:talk
2219:talk
2204:talk
2188:talk
2162:talk
2147:talk
2130:talk
2100:talk
2086:talk
2040:talk
1981:talk
1915:talk
1815:talk
1798:talk
1679:talk
1648:talk
1629:talk
1593:talk
1524:talk
1466:talk
1400:talk
1377:talk
1352:talk
1329:talk
1297:talk
1234:talk
1181:talk
1052:talk
1044:talk
1036:HERE
1006:talk
964:was
216:FENS
190:news
127:and
4096:. —
3948:to
3533:MSA
2558:In
2054:the
1458:the
1090:at"
1000:by
819:Low
647:Top
615:of
530:Low
375:GDP
230:TWL
49:it.
4116::
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