Talk:Seikilos epitaph - Knowledge (XXG)

2210: 2071:

version is usually regarded as more authoritative.) As it stands, it must be regarded as a hybrid amongst Jan 1899, Wagner 1921, and Pöhlmann-West 2001, which means that it involves a certain amount of "original research" (that is, choices made by a Knowledge (XXG) editor amongst several options). You may have noticed that the dots and overbars are rhythmic notation, with the dots transcribed as quavers (eighth notes), overbars as crotchets (quarter notes), and the "hooked overbar" as dotted crotchets. (I do not understand the addition of dots to the overbars, however.) Unmarked notes are quavers by default, so the dots are mainly precautionary. This means that there is one discrepancy in the current version, since the hooked overbar on the Φ over the word "ζῆν" corresponds to an undotted crotchet. Pöhlmann-West's decision to extend the overbars to two symbols seems like a conceptual error to me, though in fact it results in no confusion, so long as the reader/musician understands that only the last note of the ligature is to be lengthened. (It is entirely coincidental that this principle also applies to certain European notational conventions found between the 13th and 16th centuries.)—

2214:%% \new ChoirStaff \midi { \tempo 8 = 150 %\set Staff.midiInstrument = #"flute" %%please feel free to change to something else \set Staff.midiInstrument = #"synth voice" %%\set Staff.midiInstrument = #"voice oohs" %%\set Staff.midiInstrument = #"choir aahs" } \layout { \context { \Lyrics \override VerticalAxisGroup.staff-affinity = ##f \override VerticalAxisGroup.staff-staff-spacing = #'((basic-distance . 0) (minimum-distance . 1) (padding . 1)) } \context { \Staff \override VerticalAxisGroup.staff-staff-spacing = #'((basic-distance . 0) (minimum-distance . 2) (padding . 2)) } } } "/: --> 2643:(maybe "for life is brief"?). In the score, I was going for a word-for-word transliteration, sacrificing any attempt at colloquiality. In English "living" as a noun is usual in the sense of "I don't edit Knowledge (XXG) for a living" and "Seikilos is no longer among the living". In the epitaph, I think the author used the present active infinitive form, "ζῆν", not "ζωή", the noun. I tried to convey this with the clumsy very mid-twen-cen verb "alive-being" (I don't even know what "-making" formations like that are called, but they seem to have been a pretty brief fad). I guess "aliving" would also work, but that sounds even less natural. If the consensus is that "for little it is, the living" is better, we could use that instead. 1905: 3004:

the pronunciation is supposed to be representing, and mixes up pronunciations of different centuries. (3) It changes pitch accents to stress accents, when the music itself proves that the pitch accent was very much alive at the time of its composition. (4) There are various other errors; for example, τὸ ζῆν is transliterated as to zɛːn when probably tozze:n would be more accurate, since the open quality of the eta had changed by this period and zeta was a double letter. Naturally, the 5th-century BC transliteration conventionally given doesn't represent the 1st century pronunciation exactly, but it is possible for readers to adjust it as they wish.

1519:

that we are dealing with two scholars of ancient Greek who have different native languages (German and English), shich you might think would help to cancel out any modern-language prejudice. I do have one further resource which I have not mentioned: I am employed in a clerical capacity in the office of a university Department of Classics, where I can ask the opinions of a dozen or so specialists in Ancient Greek. Perhaps they can throw some light on why Pöhlmann and West break that word as they do. After all, despite their credentials it is always possible that they simply made a mistake! As the saying goes, "Even Homer nods".—

1034: 2110:

segments were not necessarily equal in length. When they were unequal, the 'down' part of the measure the thesis, to use what became the established term was usually the longer. Theoreticians classified rhythms according to the ratio between the segments (1 : 1, 1 : 2, etc.). Their writings provide us with a quantity of information on how the division was made in the case of various rhythms, and we can supplement it from indications in the musical texts, where the arsis is often marked by dots above the note-symbols. This evidence will be cited later when particular rhythms are discussed

1785:...; the latter though is where I learned ancient Greek from at school), not peer reviewed articles published in some obscure journal every other day-month-year; I'd say, following a instantaneous constructionist impulse in me (the positivist, realist, rationalist, empiricist etc in me is crying foul), that at least in this case, these are the books that construct the norms, the rules... P.S. I've provided the links not just for you (yes you've told me you don't speak Greek, I know), but for any present or future reader of this and for your mates down the corridor... ;-) :D 1674:; it was only during the Roman period that scribes started to worry about such things, and even then there were no fixed rules, which only came into existence in comparatively recent (post-medieval) times. As a result, the situation with Ancient Greek is "wide open" in modern scholarship (the professor says he could find citations to support this assertion, if need be), and every specialist publisher has to develop their own house style on this matter. Breaking syllables for singing a musical setting is even rarer. Evidently, Oxford University Press decided to break 2031:

annotated in Pöhlmann and West 2001, especially Jan 1899 and Wagner 1921. I have also minutely compared the photograph of the squeeze. In the process, I have found five undoubted errors in the present version, all in the last row: (1) the double dot over the OΦ is simply not there in the squeeze, and none of the published editions show a double dot anywhere; (2 & 3) in the sequence O I Z, both the iota and the zeta should have dots over them (all sources agree, and they are plain in the squeeze—this is obviously just an oversight); (4) the hook at the

2094:

arsis when it has the point'. Where the arsis embraces two or three notes, each of them commonly has the stigme, but sometimes only one of them has it. Some texts, such as the Delphic Paeans, have no pointing, and in others it is sporadic. Sometimes it is difficult to make sense of, and seems to have become confused. A mere point was especially vulnerable to faults of transmission: it was easily overlooked, and on the other hand it was possible for a stray spot of ink, or of some alien substance, to be mistaken for a stigme.

1079:

in the scores between this and the cited sources(as symbols the meaning of which I don't (semantically) understand but the form of which is different); as I've already explained here and at the image-file summary, I've made this using the available herein (wikipedia-wikicommons) score(s)(copy/paste image,add/align text,etc) not the scores per se of the books-sources.As for the books using a transliteration, I may add this in the future.Let me first fix this and let's worry about the transliteration then.

245: 1719: 1279:

the millenia of the life of the Greek language(written or oral) or even have been common but not universal in usage at earlier times. The problem is that these books-sources don't explain this, don't deal with this, but instead in effect oppose this presently very,very,very strongly, very,very,very commonly (e.g. in Greece, where in dealing both with ancient and modern Greek it is universal;every -good- school-boy-girl learns it at school very early) held and used "convention".

3091:

meanings under the words. By the way, I don't think the word "transliteration" is being used correctly here. What you mean perhaps is a literal translation. As for the IPA transcription, it is very difficult. Scholars argue, for example, about how the letter zeta was pronounced; and one must also take into account that in several languages (such as French or Persian) the pronunciation used when reciting or singing poetry is more conservative than that used in ordinary speech.

929:

culturally-acceptable byname, but if so, the line might be the composer's name. We really don't have enough context to parse this. Unless the railway story is true and someone wrote down/traced the text before it was flower-pot-optimized, or recorded the find site properly, and we re-find that record, which seems unlikely if it hasn't been done already... Your could probably couldn't get any additional constraints on the burial location from geochemistry.

2424:. You overestimate my scholarship; I have negligable understanding of this field, and I'm working from sketchy and inadequate references. I've added the IPA you recommend. I've also changed "brief" to "small" because I think it might be a better match for the vagueness of ὀλίγον, but not in the article text, yet. I hope the English (and German, which I added because SOV and inflections made it a lot easier) transliterations are reasonable. 2664:, and I also very much like his recording. For clarity, my comment that "singers who don't know sometimes sound really bathetic" was in no way intended to apply to him (I wasn't intending to discuss his recording). On the contrary, he shifts the beat you'd expect in the conventional transcription in a way that takes it off the definite articles (articles almost never take the stress in English verse, not sure about Koine Greek): 190: 1746:, revised edition, 2 vols. Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1990–91) basically agrees with what you have said: "In dividing words into syllables, single consonants go with the following vowel …; a group of consonants that cannot stand at the beginning of a word is divided between two syllables …; and double consonants are divided between syllables" (vol. 1, p. 208). However, I notice that this source does not actually 1934: 299: 278: 1935: 236: 1936: 1937: 3072:, I notice you changed "the end/death, the time requires it" to "the end, the time requires it". While superior as a translation, I'm a bit worried about this missing something as a transliteration. Given the context, I thought the meanings of "death" and "lifetime" were likely to be heard by a historic native listener; I could of course be wrong. Opinions welcome. 1896: 371: 2156:

discusses the tune as though referring to the version starting with an A, which is confusing when the reader sees the alternative version starting with a G just above. Could the version with A be put in the article instead perhaps? As for ἐστι it should presumably be divided ἐσ-τι not ἐ-στι, since the first syllable is long.

3053:, that looks like useful information for the article; could we qualify an IPA rendering suitably with links? If you are reading Knowledge (XXG) offline, you can't listen to the recording; we don't have sources for the recording or for the article's free translation (though there are probably PD professional translations). 877:;google books preview doesn't allow me to see the bibliography thereof to further research this, to find out what book this refers to). Someone with access to complete clear pictures or view of the stele and to the relevant bibliography, if possible hard copies of the books, needs to research this more... 2170:

Transcription of ancient-Greek into modern notation is not an absolute matter, but this particular tune is conventionally transcribed to begin on A, for reasons not important enough to go into here. Your point is well taken, however, that Winnington-Ingram's text becomes confusing when an alternative

2155:

Perhaps I missed something when reading the discussion, but is there a reason why the transcription at the top of this paragraph, which starts with an A and has two sharps, has been replaced with a version starting with a G? When you read the quotation from Winnington-Ingram quoted in the article, he

2093:

Another symbol of frequent occurrence is the single point (stigme) added above or just to the right of note-signs (and above any diseme or triseme symbol). This marks the arsis or up-beat, as the Anonymus states: 'The thesis is indicated when there is simply the note-symbol without the point, and the

2070:

Wow, that was fast! It looks fine to me. The version exactly corresponding to the Pöhlmann-West transcription would be better still, since it can then be attributed to a reliable source. (In this respect, a version corresponding exactly to Jan 1899 would be just as good, but of course the most recent

2035:

of the overbar on the last single C is a mistaken reading of the swallow-tail serif on the sigma in the line above; (5) the very last character is not a J, but rather a reversed gamma (again all the sources agree and the squeeze shows this clearly—the error is apparently a mistaken reading of the end

1737:

You are very welcome! As for the two sources you offer, I cannot read Greek well enough to assess what they say, but I notice that one was published in 1971, the other by an author active only since about 1980. With the greatest respect, these are modern sources, not ancient ones, even though they do

1490:

use and teaching of the language; perhaps also to a very common or the commonest rule, teaching and use.Dealing with unofficial rules and usage would make this discussion extremmely more complex; unofficially, as I've already said, since all rules are made and meant to be broken, almost anything goes

1167:

The difference in rhythmic interpretation has nothing to do with the text underlay. The last three notes all set a single syllable, but there is some disagreement whether they should all be the same length (as shown here), or whether the first two should be faster, in order to create a stronger sense

1078:

Is this difference due to me placing the text at a wrong place or due to the score used being different from the one(s) inside the books-sources? If it's the former please tell me whereto to put the text so that I can fix the image, upload it etc.If it's the latter I've already noticed the difference

2542:

As for the syllable division of ἔστι I think we should follow the inscription itself, as was pointed out above, namely ἔσ-τι. A similar instance where a short vowel has a long note comes in the immediately following word τὸ, where the syllable counts as long because zeta is a long consonant (whether

442:

As far as I know--as far as current research shows--there is no reliable evidence for any kind of chordal accompaniment in any ancient Greek music. There is a bit of conflicting evidence about use of a drone (though it sure sounds good to play it with one) but even this is usually disputed. At any

2528:

Concerning the singer, his version is very beautifully sung with excellent pronunciation. I don't have any objection to the initial "N", which is obviously just a trivial mistake. However, I don't think he's correct in adding an unwarranted fall in pitch in the word ζῇς, and he pronounces the first

732:

The article says that the tombstone and the epigrams were dedicated from Seikilos to his "(most probably) wife, Euterpe.", because "Seikilos Euterpei" means "(from)" Seikilos to Euterpe". However, Euterpe is the name of the Greek muse of music. So, perhaps Seikilos dedicated the musical composition

532:

hey guys! I was just wondering about the transliteration of the lyrics. It appears that they've been transliterated using the reconstructed Classical Attic pronunciation system. This seems a little strange to me, considering that the song is dated to the second or third century AD, and by this time

3090:

Well, I don't think χρόνος really means "lifetime" in this context, but simply "time". As for τέλος, it could of course imply death, but the basic meaning is "end". One scholar has pointed out that it could also mean "what is due" (like a customs tax). But I can't see the point of adding all these

3003:

I have removed the IPA version from the transcription for various reasons. (1) It isn't justified in the literature; there is no citation to any scholarly source; it seems to have just been invented but not by anyone who has a good knowledge of what they are doing. (2) It is not clear what century

1634:

s and lowercase throughout the text so that the transcribed Greek text, would not mislead the reader into thinking that different symbols (initial-intervocalic (σ) and final (ς) sigma; a much later convention) had been used in the inscription itself and at the same time would not be aesthetically

1278:

On the other hand as all rules are made to be broken, there might be a reason that I don't know of or an exception to this rule.Heck, this rule might even be a later construct-convention and I might be wrong claiming that it has been used for ever.Or it might e.g. have had exceptions to it through

893:

Glad this has been brought up already. Euterpe may well have been a relative, but as Euterpe is specifically the muse of music as opposed to the other arts the muses represented severally, I think it's at least likely enough to merit a mention if speculation about unknown family members is getting

578:

I made a short recording - it's not brilliant, but it's decent. I've taken a few artistic liberties (including using the musical intro to Mesomedes' "hymn to the muse" as an opening riff), but nothing too far out of the box. The problem is, we really aren't completely sure how the music would have

2375:

on vowels and diphthongs, I'd keep the vowel length distinction unless it's a very late dating, I'd keep eta as ɛː (mɛːden, zɛːn; if not move to /eː/, then /iː/, then /i/, depending on date), make long diphthongs monophthongs (zɛːs, then as before...), also monophthongize /ai̯/ to /ɛː/ (pʰɛː.nuː,

1518:

Thanks for the lesson in Greek syllabification. As I said, I have no Greek at all, though I am comfortable in several other modern European languages and am well aware of the principles you mention, and how they vary from one language to another. It is interesting in the case of Pöhlmann and West

2229:

I've been rather bold by including a transliteration, to give the reader an idea of what each word means (since singers who don't know sometimes sound really bathetic). I hope someone with expertise will tear it apart and come up with a better version. I also hope I haven't made any error in the

1852:

treated as undivided ..." (my emphasis). This list of exceptional combinations does not include -στ-. A plosive + a liquid is one of these exceptions: hence ὁ χρό-νος, not ὁχ-ρό-νος. The syllabification used in Pöhlmann–West should in any event be used here, as it is the "authoritative scholarly

2248:

For instance, "τὸ τέλος ὁ χρόνος ἀπαιτεῖ" has an obviously parallel structure, grammatically and musically; does the transliteration convey that? Would " thou grieve" be a better way of clumping multiple English words translating a single Greek one, or is that clear? Any improvements welcome.

3023:

The dating of the Seikilos epitaph itself is uncertain and lies in a period when Greek was in great flux. Afaict there is no total certainty or scholarly agreement (within a broader consensus of course) on the dating (or locating) of the relevant sound changes in the Greek of the period or the

2109:

From the second half of the fifth century BC, if not earlier, it was customary to divide each measure into 'up' and 'down' segments (ano, kato), later called 'lift' and 'step' (arsis, basis) or 'lift' and 'placement' (arsis, thesis), corresponding to the raising and lowering of the foot. These

1848:(Oxford, 1983) 8: "Where two consonants occur together, it is in most cases only the second that releases the following vowel: the first is treated as belonging to the previous syllable and adding to its length." In the same book, 17f., West catalogues "Certain other consonant combinations are 2610:

My impression was that "χρόνος" means "time" in the infinitely-divisible English sense, but also has a discrete sense of "a duration" or "a timespan", and when specifically applied to humans "lifetime" or "lifespan". This gives the nice parallel contrast of end and duration, death-moment and

2497:

above is quite right. You have transliterated it with an open e (zɛːs) in the same way as yοu have transliterated αι (ˈfɛː.nuː), but I believe that by the 1st or 2nd century CE eta was a closer sound. At all periods including modern Greek it was different from the sound represented by αι. In

2030:

Sorry for coming back to this after so long a time, but I have at last taken the time to carefully examine the music notation in the above image. There are a great many differences from the Pöhlmann-West transcription, but many of them are debatable and in fact conform to some other readings

928:

It also seems possible that the person commemorated by the stela was fond of music, in which case might they have been nicknamed "Euterpe" or "Euterpes"? Or, more simply, it could mean "Σεικίλος Εὐτέρ "Seikilos of Euterpe", that is, "Seikilos, dedicated to Music". Not sure if this would be a

2230:

accentuation or anything; I just copied from the article text. It's really easy to alter this format, any change requests welcome if you don't want to do it (in the article) yourself. I've used the "flute" midi instrument; I'd appreciate any help picking something more appropriate from this

1669:

I have consulted two professors, one of whom threw up his hands and said, "Who knows? I certainly don't!" It seems that, in scholarly publications, one does not ordinarily break Ancient Greek words at line-ends, so this professor referred me to another, who has considerable experience with

542:

I'm hesitant to change it in the article without consultation, because I'm not sure if there's a specific reason it's been transliterated Classical Attic in the first place. Also,I've been studying and singing this music for about a year now - I'd be happy to make a short recording.

1670:

typesetting texts in a variety of non-Roman alphabets. He told me that there are no established rules for syllabification breaks of Ancient Greek, in part because in that historical era texts were usually carved in stone. If the carver ran out of space on one line, a break could be made

1176:) gives two sixteenths (semiquavers) and a quarter (crotchet) instead of the three eighths (quavers) in this version. As I said, the difference is inconsequential for your purposes. The authoritative scholarly source is Pöhlmann and West's 2001 collection, to which you refer, which has 595:

The score was written in modern-day D major, which is at odds with the midi tune, that appears to be in Aeolian mode (no C#). I wonder if there was a mistake. If so, it could be easily fixed by keeping the notes and change the key to C Major. Of course, the midi tune could be wrong...

716:

which currently works; listening, it's definitely the Seikilos epitaph (comparing it to the MIDI in the article) and the lyrics sound like the Greek, so it seems very reasonable to assume that that is the same MP3. Should we link the MF page or someone's copy on Dropbox or something?

1717:

though as it seems, on cases of three consonants, the rule is not exactly as I remembered it to be (the two first consontants suffice), mea culpa; both are Ancient Greek grammar books officially used (at least in the past; don't know about the present) at Greek schools, published by

422:

so that people who are more knowledgable on ancient greek music can write the actual article. If you follow the link to the score image, you will get the source code for lilypond if you want to make edits. You could also load the midi into a midi based editor or run it through the

2119:

I've updated the score after doing a check and realising I had missed differences from Pöhlmann-West; I think it now is faithful to this source irrespectively of whether that's good or bad as far the musicological stuff per se are concerned. Please check and report back.

1263:), form a syllable with the second vowel (i.e belong to the second syllable) except when these two (or three) consonants are not allowed to form , don't form, a word in Greek that has them as initial letters.You can read an indirect definition-instance-version of this rule 1933: 3135:

I don't think the information itself is that complex, but I agree that the tone in which its written (and some of the chosen vocabulary) does lean much specialist than widely accessible vocab. The lack of links doesn't help either, neither does the lack of context.

3020:

I don't care much about the inclusion or removal of an IPA transcription. I think it's something helpful to have provided we have a caveat emptor but its absence does not make me lie sleepless on my bed at nights. Having said that I think you're asking for way too

1889:

1.Sorry to bother you again but since you say Poehlmann-West is the authoritative souce I've made some changes following their syllabification throughout the score(without really understanding why it differs at places). Therefore I ask you to please check again and

2611:

lifespan; I was trying to convey that. But the slash is inappropriate, as "χρόνος" certainly does not mean "life"; I've now replaced it with square brackets. Thank you. Yes, "the alive-being" is a horrible translation. The translation currently in the article runs:

3119:

The Scholarly Views section is unnecessarily technical and dense. I appreciate highly detailed information as much as the next user, but this either needs expansion for clarification or editing down for readability. It’s absurdly opaque to non-specialist readers.

1932: 1843:

In prosodic syllabification, consonant combinations, whether internal or word-initial, are split between syllables, unless they are one of a small group of exceptions or something about the meter of the passage makes for an unusual division. M. L. West,

2052:

P.S.I've also created but not uploaded a version of the image that afaict is identical to the one of Pöhlmann–West's ancient score, i.e. including corrections that you've not mentioned above. Do you want me to upload that replacing the one that's there

1990:

or a comma. If we want to say that we're following Pöhlmann–West faithfully, then I'd switch it to a comma, but if we're just saying that out transcriptions are "after" Pöhlmann–West, then it's within your editorial discretion which punctuation to use.

2963:

is also shortened, shortening it for the remaining two bars. Essentially the conventional rhythymization is used for the first and third bars, the D'Angour for the second and fourth; this may be deliberate. I think would be fairly easy to remove the

894:

one, sourced from books or not. Euterpe was fairly well known as a deity; it seemed like an obvious omission to me as soon as I saw the mention of possible family and not even a note regarding the muse, given that the article's subject is a song.

751:

Google for "seikilos epitaph" and select books.When text is mentioned I think that most authors say that it's a dedication to his wife.Morevover one claims it's not a dedication but that the Euter is a patronym;I guess that would mean it's

1005:

12-tet is actually a fairly good approximation of the ptomelaic scale. However, I honestly don't know how the people who wrote this down knew the scale that was being used or approximated it in 12-tet, as the article doesn't go into their

1758:

be divided. In any case, this is also a modern text, and does not claim to represent Ancient Greek rules on syllable division, though it is published by the same firm who produced the Pöhlmann and West anthology, where the word is broken

3032:

article to see the giant mess out of which you want an exact answer to be derived. We're dealing with simplifications and approximations (again within a broader consensus); if you then add on top of all that the musical stuff, well...

1258:

The relevant here syllabisation rule which as far as I know has been used for ages, both on ancient and modern Greek, is that two (or tree, that's btw the maximum in Greek) consonants placed between two vowels-diphthongs (i.e. being

647:

I've added the greek text of both the song and the "statement".Had to change the style a bit to line by line original text-transliteration-translation.Punctuation used was the one of the already present score image.Any objections???

1742:, New York: Fordham University Press, 1992), which seems to agree with what I have been told, since it ducks the question entirely, merely giving examples without explaining them. Another text (Maurice Balme and Gilbert Lawall, 1911:

one which I've created (based on the former, changing syllabification, moving around elements etc, trying to make it more readable, trying to make separate syllables-notes more apparent etc) and uploaded. Please also check and

2386:, to zɛːn, to ˈte.los not (h)o zen, (h)o ˈte.los (???) and /ˈte.los/, /es'ti/, why tɛ.los, ɛsˈti (do you go by Allen? if so wouldn't also epsilon, among others, have to become more open?)? So let's say something like this: 1196:

really should be broken "sa-tsu-ma", though we often see it done (incorrectly for Japanese, but perhaps correctly as an English loan word) "sat-su-ma". On the other hand, Pöhlmann and West use a different form of the letter

1678:(and presumably other, similar words) between the two consonants, in spite of the Modern Greek rules. On the other hand (and I am still quoting the professor), you are perfectly justified in doing it the other way.— 1091:

P.S.I would happily use a score that would be faithful to secondary and tertiary more "serious", more official, sources, cause I don't know whther this score is correct, valid; but this is the only available to use

153: 1554:

I have to repeat, thank you very much for your help; my musical education is close to 0; hence, I wouldn't know what to do with this file and I see noone else but you volunteering to help, answering my call(s)!!

430:

I've also heard media files on the web that have this melody set to chords, but I don't know enough to know whether the chords are accurate or supposition. If they're accurate, I'll add them to the files too.

2171:

transposition level is used, and this could easily be the case for other text citations as well. The conventional transcription with two sharps and the melody beginning on A should be restored in the article.—

555:

Yes on both counts! It needs a recording, and your explanation looks good to me. By all means update the transliteration, and if you're willing to release a recording as public domain or GFDL that would be

1059:

where, however, the Greek is rendered in Roman transliteration. There is also a minor difference in the rhythmic interpretation of the last three notes, but this does not matter. I hope this is not too much

2376:

a.pɛːˈtei̯) if not to /eː/ (/a.peːˈtei̯/), certainly monophthongize the by now absorbed by the spurious diphthong ει (a.pɛːˈteː), if not go further (depending on dating) to /a.peːˈtiː/ and then /a.peˈti/;

2968:

of the "nóson" with sound editing. But honestly, I'm not that worried. The midi file gives the notated timing and pitches, but it's a computer beeping. The recording is an actual human singing and it's

561:

As far as I know the date of the stele is somewhat in doubt, with estimates ranging from about 200BCE to 100CE (unfortunately there was nothing to carbon-date; it was just a stone monument). Thanks!

1536:

FYI and for any future reference:Just to be as much clear as possible,crystal clear, I've added above a post scriptum on unofficial rules and usage; it's trivial but it doesn't hurt to include it...

349: 1542:

Note that I'm writing this, I'm uploading files, editing articles, discussing in wikipedia about things that are completely irrelevant to my studies, instead of writing/completing my thesis...

2036:

of the ligature under the group as part of the final letter). It would be nice to have these fixed. It would probably be overkill to annotate all the honest differences of opinion elsewhere.—

1220:

I'm aware that in English how the breaking of syllables (syllabisation-syllabification-syllabication) is done is different and that it affects the way you treat words of other languages; btw

3206: 339: 2529:

syllable of μηδὲν with a quaver instead of a crotchet (i.e. too short). (In Delphic hymn 2 we also find syllables with circumflex on a non-descending note.) Apart from that it's excellent.

1704:

just Modern Greek rules unless this is to be understood as referring to what modern Greeks do about Ancient Greek language grammar rules, not as referring to rules of modern Greek per se;

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in their transcription, and break the word as "es-ti". Since they are both eminent scholars of the language, perhaps there is a difference here between Classical and Modern Greek rules?—

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which I don't think is that common or anyway that commonly attested.BUT on the other hand you're right,the book you've cited(whence the patronymic possibility I've cited before) reads

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Well, if it would not be (very) inconvenient or troublesome to you, it wouldn't hurt to ask them, you might as well do this; they're right next door, next office door, right?!?!?! :D

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I think it's noteworthy that the melody is used as the basis for Nero (Peter Ustinov)'s song in the film "Quo Vadis". Unfortunately, I hdon't have a citeable quote, only this video:

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I was hoping that others would also comment; but anyway since they haven't, thanx; I might remove the ano teleiai and semicola some time in the future from both article and images.

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2. The application in musical texts of the symbol -, which we know signified a 'diseme', a doubling of the normal 'monoseme' short note, to notes on which a long syllable was sung.

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and/or orthographically unpleasing-wrong, like e.g. some texts (usually of authors alien to the field(s) and/or language) that transcribe sigmas in e.g. Greek quotations-words, as

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Sounds right to me. Both the score and the MIDI tune are exactly the same, and correct. Remember it starts and ends on E. Both contained a C#. What exactly seemed not right?

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Well, on the links of this page, i read 2 books wich clearly states Euterpe was probably his father or for his father, and that he probably camed from a family of musicians.

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I would personally prefer the voice synth, as this is a song after all. I also wonder if some space can be put between the systems as they seem kinda crammed at the moment.

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most of the major phonological changes between ancient Attic and Koine Greek had already taken place. I think that the transliteration should look something more like this:

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I agree, it's irrelevant and it's clearly also a controversial claim. This article is not the place to expound on various hypotheses. So, two good reasons for removing it.

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sounded - we can only make educated guesses. I'd certainly be willing to release it as public domain - I've converted it to ogg, but I'm not sure about how to upload it!

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Since, as you say, this score-lyrics-image is fine, since there doesn't seem to be a problem, I guess I'll make use of it inside the article; in due time, that is.

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I'd guess a possible exception to this, however rare, would be some compound (or hyphenated) words that (could or would) have as a second part words of the initial

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is not important or relevant here.It's just a script difference.There has been an endless variety of Greek scripts-alphabets through space and time; read e.g.

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Oh also forgot this; another possibility or guess is the following; in fact it's pretty silly of me not to have mentioned it before: the syllabisation of

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I've taken the liberty of giving what I think is a more faithful translation (especially with regard to "shine" instead of "dance and sing, be joyful").

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I'm not an expert but is this really the "oldest surviving example of a complete musical composition"? What about Hurrian Song which, according to

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Further, χρόνος doesn't mean "life/time". It just means "time". And "the alive-being" is a horrible translation. It just means "life" or "living".

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should be done according to the rules for Greek, of course. I am ignorant of Greek, and so can have no opinion at all. For what it is worth, the

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is intervocalic or even word-final, you seem to generally have no problem pronouncing it, e.g. (using only Greek words or words of Greek origin)

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On vowel sounds, are you saying the "eː" representing "εῖ" in "ἀπαιτεῖ" ("a.pɛː.ˈteː") should be used for "ζῇς", "ζῆν", and maybe "μηδὲν" too?

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In Greek there are consonant or consonant cluster rules allowing (or not) the placement-occurence of them in a word; think in comparison about

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P.S.Removed punctuation excluding full stop as per discussion above (taken place some time in the past); will remove it also from the article.

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Looks good to me -- thank you for working on this. No objection to the transliteration; anyway I can't think of any improvements right off.

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breaks it as "es-ti", perhaps because to an English speaker it looks correct this way. We have a similar problem with Japanese words, where

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I'm not sure why older compositions are mentioned? This is not an article on ancient musical compositions, but a specific composition.

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chronological development of Attic vowels and (short and long) diphthongs inside Allen's Vox Graeca (pages 74 and 82) or just read our

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Kindly provide a serious source pointing to Euterpe herself so that we can see whether it's possible or worth mentioning. Thanx... ;-)

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on consonants, I'd ditch the daseia (/o.son/) and consider, depending on dating, frivatives (feː.nuː, ˈxro.nos, oˈli.ɣon); also it's

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ADDENDUM: On a different but related issue: should we remove the ano teleiai and semi cola from both the article and the images??

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By the way I've added s to show that the last syllable is missing(from what I understand and have read, I've never seen per se).

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the division of two consonants that may stand at the beginning of a word, but rather formulates only the negative: if the group

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I believe Jerome Kohl is right, but you need to have a Hellenist look at this. The two best I know of on Knowledge (XXG) are

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all the time, this being happening let's say due to etymology(i.e. due to the words in English of mainly Greek origin), e.g.

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Strongly agree, for same reasons; I've restored it (hadn't noticed it had changed). Conventional transcription begins on A.

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ome of the voices, and I've increased the spacing, maybe too far. I could also put some of the lyrics above the staff.

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Also a thought of mine that is again totally a guess(it's anyway of secondary or tertiary+ importance): The authors of

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treat the Ancient Greek language. I have checked the text used in my institution (Hardy Hansen and Gerald M. Quinn,

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sequence of the changes or even the sounds themselves at many cases. Take a look for example at the two tables of

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I think Davidiad is taking a holiday today, but I left a note in case he hadn't added this page to his watchlist.

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Thanx Davidiad! If Pöhlmann–West is indeed considered the authoritative scholarly source, if ..., I cannot object.

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So concluding, both a mousikos-mousikologos and a philologos have commented; I've uploaded a new version reading

1393:, but 99.99% of the time you are not allowed to, you don't pronounce both of the letters; you only pronounce the 212: 1093: 1226:

I think that both the former and the latter are near-universal phaenomena or certainly not exclusive to English

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I don't see why the conjecture of hypothetical Chinese music is included. It's not relevant to this article.

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noteserver to get guido code to edit. Or leave me a message and I will fix any errors and reupload the files.

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So unless someone else justifiably objects to this, I'll let this image be, unchanged, as it presently stands.

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Please help! Btw that means replying in English or even Greek; not in musicolingo.I'm not a musician... Thanx!

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in the article. The rhythmic interpretation there is the same as in the example here. The syllable break of

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this is what the (at least modern) Greek Ancient Greek grammar books say and prescribe, see e.g. these two:

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That's my understanding too ... scholarly opinion is pretty unanimous that it was dedicated to his wife.

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My mistake. I don't know why I heard C natural (not sharp) yesterday. Sorry! Should I remove this entry?

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Professor Allen has a table indicating when the vowels changed their sounds. This should be consulted.

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influences present here but also irritation at Greek-Greece not being anywhere mentioned there :) );

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These are officially used grammar books (OK the first one isn't any more; inter alia, having been in

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It looks good, and is much easier on the eyes. I think it's your call on whether that should be an

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I don't understand why the sound sample is using equal-temperament which didn't exist at the time.

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P.P.S. The graphics changes needed this time were much, much simpler and therefore easy and quick.

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Oson zis, phainou Miden olos si lupou Pros oligon esti to zin To telos o chronos apaitei

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http://books.google.com/books?id=jVud8Fz6wTMC&lpg=PP1&pg=PA88#v=onepage&q&f=false

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http://books.google.com/books?id=5kzYwVosDUMC&lpg=PP1&pg=PA79#v=onepage&q&f=false

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Please help fix the broken anchors. You can remove this template after fixing the problems. |

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Oops forgot something very troubling to me: What I myself find very problematic is splitting

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but nobody has replied.So let me ask it again here: Am I the only one that is hearing here

3144: 2451: 1712: 975: 830: 718: 690: 629: 506: 849:, a female name that I think is very common(see e.g. the Muse), the latter probably sing. 3077: 3058: 2978: 2472: 2429: 2391: 2360: 2346: 2336: 2304: 2291: 2272: 2254: 2239: 2186: 991: 960: 934: 779: 709:) is broken and I can't find it in the Internet Archive or anywhere else on that site. 671: 607: 562: 444: 443:

rate the tune chiseled on the stone is purely monophonic. Good work putting this up!

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in the aforementioned sources, might have been done because of the stele itself! See

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Now that the score extension exists and is working again, I've made a new version:

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People who know their music please help. Please check new score-lyrics-image below.

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M. L. West, Ancient Greek Music, 1992, pages 268, 266, 131, 133-134 respectively.

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I remind you that you can find-read the relevant Poehlmann score-syllabification

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Yes, this is correct. At least, it corresponds to the text-underlay given in the

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such scores are available at wikicommons;both are as far as I can see the same).

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Well one could say that anything is possible;but,heck, it's a tombstone...;-)

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this was my guess on the reason behind how these authors-sources treat this.

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On the one hand it certainly depends on whether the missing part would read

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If I've missed anyone interested, or pinged the unintersted, my apologies.

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because there are no words in Greek (it is't allowed to) having an initial

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Perhaps somebody knows where to look for information to back this up... --

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http://www.biblicallanguagecenter.com/Sound_files/SEIKILOU_WDH_2006.mp3

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This article links to one or more target anchors that no longer exist.

1491:(albeit perhaps in different frequencies and/or probabilities)... ;-) 1039:

Is it valid, correct?Are the lyrics correctly placed under the notes?

834: 2973:(plus it's a much better way of giving the pronunciation than IPA). 1895: 1806:, who I suspect will have something precise to say about the above. 1301:

because there are words in Greek (it is allowed to) with an initial

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with me at present but I don't think the transliteration of eta in

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is shortened, shifting the beat for two bars; the second note of

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Or put in another way it's time people learned Greek again!!! :D

1874:, the score is fine, so I think we're done; thank you all!!! :) 1133:

does the same) but I find it very wrong in a philologic sense...

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It's in A Mixolydian, which contains the same notes as D major

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2.Following our discussion, I've replaced in the article this

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Apologiai for not replying sooner (obviously there are some

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In order to help you understand the above, let me note this:

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is a part of the second syllable and not of the first; e.g.

314:. If you need assistance from a classicist, please see our 1125:

does too, rightly so impov.I've done this split following

2219:

Audio playback is not supported in your browser. You can

1192:

is regarded as a single sound, and therefore a word like

760:(dative).Guess anything is possible however improbable... 2572:, I agree and that's what I did on the syllablification. 2099:- 'two-time long' (diseme) └ 'three-time long' (triseme) 1030:

image-file-score that is already used at this article):

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Is this reasonable? Which alternatives are preferred?

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Addendum: I've now changed the image to reflect this:

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Knowledge (XXG):WikiProject Classical Greece and Rome

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at the time (June 9, 2020). There are suggestions on

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which seems more specialised in epigraphy and reads

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Being Hellenistic Greek but also keeping it simple,

2281:(h)oˈtɛ.los/ˈte.los(h)oˈkʰro.nos/ˈxro.nosa.pɛˈtei̯] 174: 2050:Done. Please check for errors etc and report back. 1656:Are there no news? Have you consulted with them?? 216:for improving the article. If you can improve it, 3207:Mid-importance Classical Greece and Rome articles 33:for general discussion of the article's subject. 3212:All WikiProject Classical Greece and Rome pages 2926: 2839: 2767: 2693: 2621: 3192:Knowledge (XXG) level-5 vital articles in Arts 2373:I'd keep the move from pitch to stress accent, 327:Template:WikiProject Classical Greece and Rome 2620: 8: 2279:prosoˈli.ɡos/oˈli.ɣosɛsˈti/esˈti(h)ozen/zin 3202:B-Class Classical Greece and Rome articles 1744:Athenaze: An Introduction to Ancient Greek 1495:So returning to the main subject before us 1344:; there are instead words with an initial 272: 1600:are pretty much or somewhat aligned with 1117:when the syllables in Greek are commonly 2673: 2017:How about the strange Initial N sound?? 1074:Thank you very much for the quick reply. 733:to music itself, and not to a woman... 685:The Hurrian page says that it is only ' 452:No reason to mention older compositions 274: 233: 3182:Knowledge (XXG) vital articles in Arts 3177:Knowledge (XXG) level-5 vital articles 3115:Scholarly Views section too scholarly? 2232:a list of alternative midi instruments 1925:ADDENDUM2: I had left a question-note 1696:Btw, again, just to be crystal clear ( 1455:category , for example something like 2925: 2838: 2766: 2692: 2682: 2390: 2271: 1754:stand at the beginning of a word, it 1382:in English: you may write an initial 714:http://www.mediafire.com/?jintmzijttn 307:WikiProject Classical Greece and Rome 189: 7: 2685: 2679: 2676: 668:http://en.wikipedia.org/Hurrian_song 662:Is this really the oldest surviving? 304:This article is within the scope of 2593:, comments? I know nothing of this. 418:I created the score and midi using 263:It is of interest to the following 23:for discussing improvements to the 2955:As you say, the first syllable of 2628:life exists only for a short while 1430:word-final(in spelling or sound): 330:Classical Greece and Rome articles 14: 1168:of closure. The transcription in 395:] The anchor (Ionian (Iastian)) 50:New to Knowledge (XXG)? Welcome! 1616:Documents of ancient Greek music 1127:Documents of ancient Greek music 1032: 369: 297: 276: 243: 234: 188: 45:Click here to start a new topic. 2277:meˈden/miˈðen'(h)o.lɔːssylyˈpuː 2265:International Phonetic Alphabet 712:Googling the filename, I found 344:This article has been rated as 3197:B-Class vital articles in Arts 3187:B-Class level-5 vital articles 2133:17:59, 11 September 2013 (UTC) 2081:16:10, 11 September 2013 (UTC) 2066:06:28, 11 September 2013 (UTC) 2046:05:55, 11 September 2013 (UTC) 1853:source", as Jerome Kohl says. 1724:Thank you again,very much! CU 1501:Thanks, again, very much!!!!! 1026:I've just created this (using 1016:06:29, 18 September 2012 (UTC) 657:01:26, 23 September 2010 (UTC) 528:22:59, 27 September 2005 (UTC) 1: 3101:13:54, 17 February 2022 (UTC) 3082:05:11, 17 February 2022 (UTC) 3063:05:11, 17 February 2022 (UTC) 3046:00:49, 12 February 2022 (UTC) 3014:13:25, 10 February 2022 (UTC) 2983:03:49, 10 February 2022 (UTC) 2688:(no original word divisions) 2400:toˈte.losoˈxro.nosa.pɛː.ˈteː] 1174:Historical Anthology of Music 1057:Historical Anthology of Music 1000:22:05, 24 February 2012 (UTC) 904:15:15, 11 November 2013 (UTC) 42:Put new text under old text. 3167:Former good article nominees 2553:21:07, 28 January 2022 (UTC) 2477:19:28, 21 January 2022 (UTC) 2456:00:01, 18 January 2022 (UTC) 2434:20:05, 17 January 2022 (UTC) 2416:00:17, 17 January 2022 (UTC) 2367:19:26, 15 January 2022 (UTC) 2351:18:08, 15 January 2022 (UTC) 2216: 1698:it might of interest to them 1328:) gets syllabised like this 1297:) gets syllabised like this 965:16:31, 7 February 2012 (UTC) 813:03:30, 30 January 2013 (UTC) 786:02:42, 22 October 2011 (UTC) 772:00:31, 22 October 2011 (UTC) 743:21:46, 21 October 2011 (UTC) 2677:Conventional rhythmization 2543:pronounced dz, zd, or zz). 2296:23:54, 9 January 2022 (UTC) 2259:20:24, 8 January 2022 (UTC) 2244:20:02, 8 January 2022 (UTC) 939:21:09, 9 January 2022 (UTC) 519:A more exact translation... 493:18:03, 8 January 2010 (UTC) 3228: 3152:06:25, 24 March 2024 (UTC) 3130:00:31, 24 March 2024 (UTC) 2630:and Time demands his due. 2193:21:25, 30 April 2017 (UTC) 2181:21:04, 30 April 2017 (UTC) 2166:13:04, 30 April 2017 (UTC) 1945:approximate pronunciation. 1740:Greek: An Intensive Course 886:01:19, 25 March 2013 (UTC) 724:17:11 19 April 2011 (GMT) 680:09:47, 14 April 2011 (UTC) 624:15:06, 7 August 2007 (UTC) 614:01:10, 7 August 2007 (UTC) 601:01:08, 7 August 2007 (UTC) 511:00:56, 5 August 2011 (UTC) 472:23:26, 13 April 2008 (UTC) 350:project's importance scale 206:, but it did not meet the 2398:proso.ˈli.ɣones.ˈtitozɛːn 1957:Thank you all very much. 980:18:50, 19 July 2022 (UTC) 696:17:09 19 April 2011 (GMT) 343: 321:Classical Greece and Rome 292: 284:Classical Greece and Rome 271: 80:Be welcoming to newcomers 2686:Original line divisions 2396:mɛː.ˈden'o.lɔːssyly.ˈpuː 2275:ˈ(h)o.sonzɛːi̯spʰai̯.nuː 2026:18:16, 9 June 2013 (UTC) 2001:17:15, 27 May 2013 (UTC) 1980:17:03, 27 May 2013 (UTC) 1966:14:30, 27 May 2013 (UTC) 1883:00:04, 22 May 2013 (UTC) 1863:23:29, 21 May 2013 (UTC) 1816:14:47, 21 May 2013 (UTC) 1794:18:27, 20 May 2013 (UTC) 1777:18:01, 20 May 2013 (UTC) 1733:04:17, 20 May 2013 (UTC) 1688:01:05, 20 May 2013 (UTC) 1665:08:26, 19 May 2013 (UTC) 1648:04:35, 13 May 2013 (UTC) 1564:03:48, 13 May 2013 (UTC) 1529:03:12, 13 May 2013 (UTC) 1510:02:40, 13 May 2013 (UTC) 1211:21:20, 12 May 2013 (UTC) 1163:10:54, 12 May 2013 (UTC) 1142:10:01, 12 May 2013 (UTC) 1105:09:28, 12 May 2013 (UTC) 1070:19:47, 11 May 2013 (UTC) 1050:14:15, 11 May 2013 (UTC) 638:22:57, 30 May 2009 (UTC) 586:10:21, 18 May 2006 (UTC) 569:15:02, 16 May 2006 (UTC) 550:12:32, 16 May 2006 (UTC) 438:21:39, 5 Jul 2004 (UTC) 2680:D'Angour rhythmization 2221:download the audio file 2085:Done...Please check... 970:I found a reference. -- 871:cεικιλοcευτερ(που) ζη { 447:21:54, 5 Jul 2004 (UTC) 3172:B-Class vital articles 2942: 2923: 2836: 2764: 2634: 2633: 1946: 1909: 1900: 756:(genitive) instead of 75:avoid personal attacks 2624:While you live, shine 2301:It's been a week, so 2212:%% \new Staff : --> 1940: 1907: 1898: 1692:Thank you very much! 1121:. The latter is what 257:on Knowledge (XXG)'s 250:level-5 vital article 208:good article criteria 100:Neutral point of view 2626:have no grief at all 2388:Greek pronunciation: 2269:Greek pronunciation: 1908:The Seikilos "score" 1899:The Seikilos "score" 1480:Note - Post Scriptum 1283:Example of this rule 105:No original research 2463:, I've switched to 2116:Hope this helps... 1618:et al may be using 1320:(Counter-)Example: 1289:The aforementioned 643:Greek text addition 198:was nominated as a 2394:ˈo.sonzɛːsˈfɛː.nuː 1947: 1910: 1901: 906:Anonymous Browser 259:content assessment 202:Music good article 86:dispute resolution 47: 2946: 2945: 2929:oson zeis phainou 2225: 2203:New score version 1985: 1941:Melody sung in a 1938: 1087:Thank you, again! 803:comment added by 483:comment added by 474: 462:comment added by 411: 410: 386:in most browsers. 364: 363: 360: 359: 356: 355: 228: 227: 220:; it may then be 183: 182: 66:Assume good faith 43: 3219: 3149: 3147: 3142: 2674: 2489:I don't have my 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