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Talk:Shannon number

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166:... that is, the total number of ways of arranging 32 distinguishable pieces on a board of 64 spaces. But I didn't consider the affect of promoting pawns, and all the various choices that might be available in that case, and the extra board positions that this would create... still though, if promoting pawns was disallowed, it would limit the positions to 64!/32! (as well as noticably changing the dynamics of the game)... just a curious thought. ( 22: 74: 53: 84: 209:
There are several possible problems with this page. First, "One novemtriginillion is known as the Shannon number." It seems like the Shannon Number is actually 900, which is 1.478...×10, for which 10 is a poor approximation. If 900 is indeed the Shannon Number, then that doesn't really belong in this
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Will Entriken proved an upper bound of 23937533792747905898433845980097921846050276105440 on the number of chess diagrams (roughly 2^164). The following Haskell program, if correct, improves this to just under 2^155 for the number of positions, which includes side-to-move, castling, and en-passant
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because it appears (considered very charitably) merely to be a restatement of Shannon's estimate from the first sentence of the article, adding nothing to the article, which is not a general article on combinatorial estimates relating to chess. (Considered uncharitably, with "unique games" taken
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Yes, it's wrong, and I'll change it. While it is unclear exactly what the Shannon number is, whether it's 900^40 or some more accurate estimate, this article does not state that 10^120 is the Shannon number, so its title is misplaced. In general, you should trust the more specialized Knowledge
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could not excede 64!/32! ^ 6^32; this would be the total thirty two pieces maximum on the board, each of which can be one of six types. The game-tree complexity may be larger than this, I'm just saying that the total number of board positions could not (I believe) excede this.
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I think that Shannon knew that some games might last 41 moves, which gives 900=1.3x10 so he just rounded it off to 10. However it is true that for him to say that 900 "will be 10 variations" is pretty sloppy mathematics. Was he using a slide rule at the time?
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It only seems pretty close because the exponents are pretty close, but really it is larger than the Shannon Number by a factor of about 67...saying that this is pretty close would be like saying that pi is pretty close to 200 (3.14...×10 vs. 2×10).
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Approximating 118 with 120 is hardly the same as approximating 0 with 2. A better picture is pi to 10 (10 vs 10) More importantly; when dealing with that large numbers approximating the exponent is usual, and frequently
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I restored the number 10^120, with a quote from the paper. Sure, it's an approximation, but it's Shannon's number so we should use Shannon's approximation, not Ardric47's approximation!
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I know it's not, I was just posting some musings on the derivation of said number... but here's a few more while I'm thinking of it... I think the total number of
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How in the world can a large number about chess variants be an analog to a joking reference about how close you are to a mathematician? I don't understand.
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This article is about the Shannon number. Now that it has been decided that the Shannon number is not 10^120, shouldn't the article be moved back to
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site when mentioning the lower bound of an estimate of all the atoms in the universe. However, the following calculation on that page is incorrect:
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article, it says "The Shannon number is a rough estimate of the number of possible chess games, and is more than a googol: 10120". Is it wrong?
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isn't deleted, it will retain a record of this page's early history, which includes so many moves that it might be best forgotten anyway.
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I've changed where it claimed that it was the Shannon number. While it might not be the Shannon number, it's pretty close in size to it.
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Do you know offhand if there was ever anything about 10 (and not the Shannon number) that might need to be moved to its own article?
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article. Also, for the number of atoms in the universe: can that figure really be estimated with so much precision?
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If this other Shannon number were important it should have its own article. The reference doesn't belong here.
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64! / 32! = 482219923991114978843459072919892677776312893440000000, but that's not what Shannon's number is.
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Hmmm... well, it occured to me that the total number of posible board positions couldn't be more than
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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Due to confusing redirects, this page has been mirrored (and then added to by me...) at
273: 387:, in which 10 is equated with the so-called "Shannon number". Let me add though, that 2099: 2087: 615: 401: 392: 373: 357: 353: 340: 322: 301: 277: 249: 231: 211: 192: 178: 167: 89: 606: 2053: 79: 2090: 2070:
Just in case it's not clear, the program above (allegedly) computes an
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needed to calculate the game-theoretic value of the initial position.
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estimates that there are 10 unique games of chess possible.
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is now (as of 21:46, 8 April 2006 (UTC)) a redirect to
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The redirect at 10^120 should be reverted and then 101:, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of 2047:-- 45193640626062205213735739171550309047984050718 1618:-- 22124621884617108585387385940828998876019391612 665:2006 posting to newsgroup rec.games.chess.computer 585: 552: 519: 486: 614:literally, the claim is of course quite false.) 487:{\displaystyle 1*10^{57}*4*10^{11}=5*10^{68}} 8: 2116:Start-Class chess articles of Mid-importance 300:article above other articles mentioning it. 19: 2078:, whereas Shannon was estimating a simple 47: 577: 565: 544: 532: 511: 499: 478: 459: 440: 428: 715:-- max number of pawns and initial rooks 49: 7: 95:This article is within the scope of 38:It is of interest to the following 605:Page 70 in “The Immortal Game” by 601:I cut this text from the article: 14: 415:Calculation error in refered page 82: 72: 51: 20: 389:I'm sure the creator meant well 383:The root of the problem is the 135:This article has been rated as 619:10:31, 25 September 2008 (UTC) 331:Actually, as I type this, the 196:02:53, 28 September 2005 (UTC) 182:16:01, 26 September 2005 (UTC) 1: 2111:Mid-importance chess articles 2074:bound on the number of chess 109:and see a list of open tasks. 638:15:27, 2 February 2010 (UTC) 586:{\displaystyle 3.2*10^{79}} 171:08:36, 17 August 2005 (UTC) 115:Knowledge:WikiProject Chess 2137: 2121:WikiProject Chess articles 2106:Start-Class chess articles 2091:00:24, 4 August 2010 (UTC) 339:on top of Shannon number. 141:project's importance scale 118:Template:WikiProject Chess 653:18:10, 26 July 2010 (UTC) 553:{\displaystyle 5*10^{68}} 520:{\displaystyle 4*10^{68}} 405:21:53, 8 April 2006 (UTC) 396:21:52, 8 April 2006 (UTC) 377:21:53, 8 April 2006 (UTC) 361:21:46, 8 April 2006 (UTC) 344:21:41, 8 April 2006 (UTC) 333:page history is at 10^120 326:21:14, 8 April 2006 (UTC) 305:19:23, 8 April 2006 (UTC) 295:13:02, 8 April 2006 (UTC) 281:01:49, 8 April 2006 (UTC) 235:02:05, 8 April 2006 (UTC) 225:00:55, 7 April 2006 (UTC) 215:05:18, 6 April 2006 (UTC) 158:Number of Board Positions 134: 67: 46: 670: 494:. The correct answer is 263:14:42, 6 June 2007 (UTC) 253:19:55, 13 May 2007 (UTC) 2082:bound on the number of 2062:17:32, 5 May 2010 (UTC) 593:atoms in the universe. 419:This article refers to 587: 554: 521: 488: 28:This article is rated 588: 555: 522: 489: 564: 531: 498: 427: 319:Talk:10^120 (number) 1267:-- black p captured 1189:-- white p captured 313:Confusing redirects 583: 550: 517: 484: 34:content assessment 155: 154: 151: 150: 147: 146: 98:WikiProject Chess 2128: 2048: 2045: 2042: 2039: 2036: 2033: 2030: 2027: 2024: 2021: 2018: 2015: 2012: 2009: 2006: 2003: 2000: 1997: 1994: 1991: 1988: 1985: 1982: 1979: 1976: 1973: 1970: 1967: 1964: 1961: 1958: 1955: 1952: 1949: 1946: 1943: 1940: 1937: 1934: 1931: 1928: 1925: 1922: 1919: 1916: 1913: 1910: 1907: 1904: 1901: 1898: 1895: 1892: 1889: 1886: 1883: 1880: 1877: 1874: 1871: 1868: 1865: 1862: 1859: 1856: 1853: 1850: 1847: 1844: 1841: 1838: 1835: 1832: 1829: 1826: 1823: 1820: 1817: 1814: 1811: 1808: 1805: 1802: 1799: 1796: 1793: 1790: 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708: 705: 702: 699: 696: 693: 690: 687: 684: 681: 678: 675: 672: 661: 626: 599: 597:Cut restatement 573: 562: 561: 540: 529: 528: 507: 496: 495: 474: 455: 436: 425: 424: 417: 370:10^120 (number) 350:10^120 (number) 315: 270: 207: 188:board positions 160: 120: 117: 114: 111: 110: 88: 81: 61: 32:on Knowledge's 29: 12: 11: 5: 2134: 2132: 2124: 2123: 2118: 2113: 2108: 2098: 2097: 2094: 2093: 2066: 671: 660: 657: 656: 655: 625: 622: 611: 610: 598: 595: 580: 576: 572: 569: 547: 543: 539: 536: 514: 510: 506: 503: 481: 477: 473: 470: 467: 462: 458: 454: 451: 448: 443: 439: 435: 432: 416: 413: 412: 411: 410: 409: 408: 407: 381: 380: 379: 314: 311: 310: 309: 308: 307: 274:Shannon number 269: 266: 260:199.125.109.62 246: 245: 244: 243: 242: 241: 222:152.163.100.10 206: 205:Shannon Number 203: 202: 201: 200: 199: 159: 156: 153: 152: 149: 148: 145: 144: 137:Mid-importance 133: 127: 126: 124: 121:chess articles 107:the discussion 94: 93: 77: 65: 64: 62:Mid‑importance 56: 44: 43: 37: 26: 13: 10: 9: 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2075: 2071: 2065: 2051: 1732:-- Positions 662: 630:Practicality 627: 612: 600: 418: 316: 292:64.194.43.49 271: 256: 247: 208: 187: 163: 161: 136: 96: 90:Chess portal 40:WikiProjects 1591:-- Diagrams 659:Upper bound 624:Other uses? 607:David Shenk 30:Start-class 2100:Categories 2084:variations 366:Not really 240:necesarry. 2076:positions 1030:listArray 193:The Swami 168:The Swami 402:Melchoir 393:Ardric47 374:Melchoir 358:Ardric47 341:Melchoir 323:Ardric47 302:Melchoir 278:Melchoir 232:Ardric47 212:Ardric47 1771:countep 1624:countep 1000:Integer 688:getArgs 400:Right. 286:In the 164:64!/32! 139:on the 1615:count0 1537:count0 1450:pspace 1432:pspace 1420:return 1357:bproms 1336:wproms 1264:bproms 1222:armies 1207:bproms 1186:wproms 1144:armies 1129:wproms 1075:pspace 997:-: --> 901:return 700:armies 694:import 682:System 679:import 673:import 668:info. 645:Lubrom 527:, not 288:googol 36:scale. 2080:lower 2072:upper 2054:Tromp 1741:print 1702:count 1666:count 1600:print 1594:main0 1564:count 1531:bprod 1525:wprod 1495:space 1477:space 1405:fixbr 1399:fixwr 1375:space 1360:<= 1351:guard 1339:<= 1330:guard 1303:fixbr 1297:fixwr 1237:fixbr 1219:<- 1213:bprod 1159:fixwr 1141:<- 1135:wprod 1081:fixbr 1078:fixwr 1069:count 1051:scanl 1024:fac64 1021:where 1012:fac64 937:proms 898:<- 889:<= 886:proms 880:guard 853:prom3 847:proms 841:<- 811:prom2 805:prom3 799:<- 769:prom1 763:prom2 757:<- 727:prom1 721:<- 697:Array 663:In a 337:moved 268:Move? 112:Chess 103:Chess 59:Chess 2058:talk 2023:1952 1999:1448 1735:main 1507:bpcs 1501:wpcs 1393:fixp 1369:caps 1348:caps 1327:bpcs 1321:wpcs 1291:fixp 1273:caps 1195:bpcs 1117:wpcs 1111:fixp 1072:fixp 649:talk 634:talk 421:this 2088:Gdr 2020:),( 1996:),( 1975:212 1939:),( 1909:),( 1879:),( 1822:),( 1798:),( 1768:map 1762:sum 1726:fbr 1723:fwr 1690:fbr 1687:fwr 1657:mul 1648:fbr 1642:fwr 1630:mul 1612:map 1606:sum 1558:mul 1543:mul 1516:div 1489:fac 1483:div 1474:fac 1444:fac 1438:div 1429:fac 1372:let 1363:wpx 1342:bpx 1270:let 1246:bpx 1243:let 1168:wpx 1165:let 1096:let 1087:sum 1003:fac 994:Int 988:fac 979:fac 970:fac 961:fac 952:fac 943:fac 859:max 844:let 817:max 802:let 775:max 760:let 733:max 724:let 616:Gdr 568:3.2 250:Gdr 179:Soo 131:Mid 2102:: 2060:) 2052:-- 2044:)] 1969:), 1948:44 1918:11 1888:43 1846:), 1774:[( 1765:$ 1717:ek 1711:42 1696:14 1681:ek 1675:46 1636:ek 1609:$ 1579:ek 1573:46 1549:ek 1510:)) 1465:)) 1462:bp 1456:wp 1423:$ 1417:bp 1411:wp 1381:62 1354:$ 1333:$ 1315:bp 1309:wp 1279:30 1258:bp 1252:np 1225:np 1201:bp 1180:wp 1174:np 1147:np 1123:wp 1099:np 1093:do 1090:$ 1042:64 991::: 892:np 883:$ 787:ir 712:do 706:ir 703:np 651:) 636:) 579:79 575:10 571:∗ 546:68 542:10 538:∗ 513:68 509:10 505:∗ 480:68 476:10 472:∗ 461:11 457:10 453:∗ 447:∗ 442:57 438:10 434:∗ 391:. 356:. 321:. 276:? 173:) 2056:( 2041:0 2038:, 2035:0 2032:, 2029:0 2026:, 2017:0 2014:, 2011:0 2008:, 2005:1 2002:, 1993:0 1990:, 1987:0 1984:, 1981:2 1978:, 1972:( 1966:1 1963:, 1960:0 1957:, 1954:1 1951:, 1945:* 1942:4 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1138:) 1132:, 1126:, 1120:, 1114:( 1108:- 1105:8 1102:= 1084:= 1066:) 1063:1 1060:) 1057:* 1054:( 1048:( 1045:) 1039:, 1036:0 1033:( 1027:= 1018:n 1015:! 1009:= 1006:n 985:) 982:p 976:* 973:n 967:* 964:b 958:* 955:r 949:* 946:q 940:, 934:, 931:p 928:, 925:n 922:+ 919:b 916:+ 913:r 910:+ 907:q 904:( 895:p 877:0 874:) 871:2 868:- 865:n 862:( 856:+ 850:= 838:n 835:0 832:) 829:2 826:- 823:b 820:( 814:+ 808:= 796:b 793:0 790:) 784:- 781:r 778:( 772:+ 766:= 754:r 751:0 748:) 745:1 742:- 739:q 736:( 730:= 718:q 709:= 691:) 685:( 647:( 632:( 535:5 502:4 469:5 466:= 450:4 431:1 198:) 191:( 143:. 42::

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Chess
the discussion
Mid
project's importance scale
The Swami
08:36, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
Soo
16:01, 26 September 2005 (UTC)
The Swami
02:53, 28 September 2005 (UTC)
Ardric47
05:18, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
152.163.100.10
00:55, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
Ardric47
02:05, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
Gdr
19:55, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
199.125.109.62
14:42, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
Shannon number

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