Talk:Shirley Temple/Archive 1

649:

scare quotes are intended to convery), other than making the article more accurate. If I have written something inaccurate, I welcome your pointing it out. If I have expressed myself badly, or offended you, I apologize. Let me try again: Many modern (I welcome your improved word there by the way) film and social critics see many of Temple's films as racist. This has been discussed at great length. Knowledge (XXG) is not the place to take a position on whether or not her films were racist, but it is the place to recognize and summarize the discussion. Ignoring this undermines the credibility of the article, as it leaves the impression (untrue I am sure) that the article is ignoring negative or unpleasent information relating to Temple. I belive that by adding such a section I have strengthened the entire article, though of course it is just a begining, and is in need of much more work and improvement - a task which you have already begun. I think the optimum outcome here would be to have a brief section on this page, and then link to a new page titled something like "racism in film" which could discuss the issue in greater detail.

1160:

Temple's article, and been worked on by more editors, and given the same exposure, the lead for Temple's article may also be expanded to allow for context. I also think that although the award is notable, it crosses to the wrong side of the POV issue, by making the very first adjective about Temple a reference to an award. The main point for the first sentence should be that she was notable for her acting, singing and dancing, and for the fact that she achieved all this as a very young child - she wasn't particularly notable for winning an award. It gives undue weight to one award, when the important thing that we should be talking about is the reason for her notability. This is a different issue however. Just another point about common usage - I'm not disputing this, however in forums such as featured article discussions, "award winning" is almost always removed in favour of something more neutral and/or explanatory, for the reasons I've outlined above, so "common usage" in this case falls short of the higher application of Knowledge (XXG) standards.

2046:. All of your comments and opinions are certainly appreciated and noted. It seems very clear that this is not a popular move; however, I still contend that it is a necessary one. This great lady has been so for her entire lifetime since she was three years old. Any article in any encyclopedia ought to reflect her full and present name that she's held for nearly three-quarters of her life. Her notability should not be based upon just one aspect of her life. Just because much of her lifetime service to people has been "behind the scenes", and therefore fairly invisible to most, does not seem to me to be a good reason to reject this move. Her whole life has been truly notable, and she deserves to be remembered with an article titled with her full name: 1887:- for the reasons given above. If she'd been a minor actress and a more notable diplomat the balance would be opposite and I'd support the move. That's not the case. In fact her degree of success as "Shirley Temple" exceeds that of most entertainers, and even though her career is a long way in the past, it was of such great note, that it and her professional name are widely known, and certainly more widely known and widely used than her married name. It's always been the practice here to use the more commonly known name and there is a gulf of difference in the level at which each name is commonly known. This implies no disrespect to Shirley Temple Black or her achievements of the last 60 years. 604:

would be considered offensive now" does refer to the early films putting children in adult roles and situations, but there has been ample criticism of racist stereotypes and images in her films. Note that simply recognizing this is not the same as accepting the claim that her films were racist - and, particularly given her age, says nothing about Temple's responsibility for it if it is racism. But to ignore this topic undermines the credibility of the entire article. I have added such a section and given two references, that specifically argue that three of her films contain racist images. This is just a begining however, and I welcome and invite other editors to add to and improve it.

662:

racism, but that the claim of most critics of her films is that they were infused with racism) but I agree that such an elaborate discussion is not appropriate to the current article, and so I agree with the revision. I made a small copy edit to SEWilco's revision to make it grammatically correct. Thanks for the help with this. I am going to look for a reference that lists the Temple films that have been identified by critics as racist - I currently note three in the article. If it is only three then it would be good to note that, as it is a small percentage of her total output. If it is more than three it would be appropriate to note that too

255:

has tried to downplay it, when the opposite is the fact - and it is an important fact. Arguably Black's courage and grace in coming out publicly with her breast cancer in the early 70s was more important, and probably saved more lives, than her work has a child star during the depression. But most importantly, this is an encyclopedia, and the primary criteria must be the clear presentation of accurate and relevant information. The previous manner of handling the "breast cancer thing" was far too ambiguous and indirect. I have made a first stab at a clear description of Black and breast cancer, but of course welcome any help in improving it.

2934:(if not fame) in appointed service to her country and to the world. Much of this later notability was achieved less visibly than that which she gathered as a curly-haired, dimpled icon who lifted people's hearts from the depths of despair during the Depression. There is no doubt in my mind that Mrs. Black's notability ought to be measured over her entire great lifetime, and not just over a short span of it. However, I have been "overruled", and I gladly cede the point... for now. (All I mean by this is that if the rename issue is raised in the future independently by another editor, I will probably support that editor.) 3064:

the "T's" to the "B's" in the cat, it shows up as just "Shirley Temple" rather than her full name, "Shirley Temple Black". This is because the appearance of the listing in the cat is governed by the PAGENAME, the name of the article the cat is in. So no matter what you change the DEFAULT name to, it will always appear as "Shirley Temple" in the cat. To get her full name listed, one either must move the appropriate cats to the Redirect page, or rename this article. Renaming isn't an option at this time, so moving the cats to the Redirect page seems to be an acceptable bandaid.

2891:(out) Just to let it be known, upon reflection I have decided to put my task to rename this article on the back burner for the time being. The main technical issue seems to be resolved to satisfaction. I do still consider that the article would be improved by being titled with Mrs. Black's full name; however, I shall keep an eye on this for awhile to see if perhaps another editor may bring up the issue independently. You have all been of tremendous help to me in my personal task to better-learn Knowledge (XXG). Thank you very much! 2534:

page. If a category is just copied to the redirect, then the subject's name appears twice in that category, and this of course ought to be avoided. With no further adieu, I shall go ahead with moving the first 3 above to the redirect. They all apply to Mrs. Black's adult life, and I'm sure that if a reader goes to the Living people cat, they will be hunting for her under her full name. In the future, my fellow editors are welcome to discuss, move, or let alone the cats as you wish. Be bold! <g: -->

1127:

out for an actor's entire body of work rather than any individual film, and are decided entirely at the Academy's whim. Some years there are 2 or more, some years there are none. Also, the Academy could in theory give out 30 honorary awards in a given year, so there's no sense of any competition. Although an honorary award is a nice form of recognition for an actor's overall skills, actors would much rather compete for and win a competitive award because of the immediate prestige they get.

2497:

undoing), but only recently got my Knowledge (XXG) login ID. So I haven't really had time to look into what, if any, alternatives may exist in a case like this. Even you indicated in the previous section that there is no need for me to back off from what I believe is right. So "for the present" simply means that if there are further steps to take, then I intend to take them. I have no intent to be disruptive. But I'm not averse to getting myself into trouble when I know I'm right.

219:

fine, but in other cases I run into, I see sometimes that writers try to insinuate something about the thing referred to because they do not have the guts to put it on the other page and to then duke it out with the people who have that other page on their watchlists. It is not that the minimal reference completely solves that problem, but it helps to avoid it. That is why I made the reference to the drink minimal, but the expanded reference is fine as it is now.

3161: 31: 2748:. It is left to discussion/consensus (general agreement). And if there is no consensus, if agreement is not reached, then there are other avenues to pursue per Knowledge (XXG) policy. With the greatest and sincerest respect for you and all the other involved editors, including the "majority", those editors who do not consider my suggestion an article improvement, I do intend to continue to pursue, to "endeavor to persevere", as 1326:...this did accomplish moving her name from the "T's" to the "B's" on the category page. However, due to the fact that the name that actually appears on the category page is fully governed by the PAGENAME (the name of the article where the category is installed), the name on the category page is still simply "Shirley Temple", even though it's been moved to the "B's". 3063:

Yes, thank you, Peter. That's usually how this sort of thing is dealt with. Just set the default name with the DEFAULTSORT template (or the Lifetime template), and then change the name for appropriate individual cats. However, what happens in this case is that, while Mrs. Black's name does go from

2738:

No reason to be sorry, Ed, for it's just my inexperience that you're enlightening. For this I think a mere "thank you" is deplorably insufficient. But since it's all there is presently at my disposal, you do have my gratitude for your civility and for your instruction. No need to embellish further

2666:

to move the article has not been reached. This also appears to be correct. So precisely speaking, consensus has not determined that the article stays as it's presently titled, or "stays here", as you wrote above. When a consensus has not been reached, then I am finding that there are other avenues

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of service to people, first as a phenomenal child entertainer who lifted the spirits of people during some of the hardest times the United States has known, and then as an adult, she went on in the same spirit of service to people and to her country. She deserves so much better than to be remembered

1159:

won the same award, and in her article, it's given in context to explain what the award was and when she won it. The layout for Garland's article seems to have satisfied a community standard as it is a featured article, and was featured on the main page. It may be that it's had wider exposure than

1154:

It does seem to be common usage, but it's still misleading, and I think the main reason is that the information is given out of context. "Academy Award-winning" is used throughout Knowledge (XXG) as a kind of shorthand, but I think we should try to place it within its true context. As it currently

335:

Every Sunday, I hear Linda Hunt say: Great artists ... blah blah blah .. "often discussing the creating process." THAT is what people want to know. THAT is what Mrs. Black wants people to know. How did she DO THAT? How the heck did get get all those movies made??? She has a great memory and she

254:

I see that Amorrow is proud of how Black's breast cancer is handled in the article, but I strongly disagree. First, the implication is that there is something "untasteful" about getting breast cancer, which is simply not true. Second, it suggests that Black herself is somehow embarrassed about it, or

2466:

is not going to be moved for such a trivial reason as a minor category glitch. Now, I'm entire willing to assume good faith, but that doesn't preclude you explaining to everyone here what you mean by "for the present." If it means that you intend to keep pursuing this, please just stop right there:

2153:

Paine Ellsworth, Ed's right -- your "intense feelings for the issue" are apparent and perfectly fine. But sometimes this creates a problem of perspective. You state that the article should "honor this great lady." This is not true. The article is not here to honor her (nor to criticize). This is an

1808:

The article does need to be renamed, CactusWriter, for the reasons stated above. Those were very interesting advanced searches you performed; however, this begs the question as to how many people who would search for either ST or STB would use just the "regular" Google or the scholarly search? The

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to the lead, which was an excellent step forward. And your idea to begin the lead with her bolded adult and present name is also a great step forward. However the biggest step really should be taken. It is time to recognize this great lady in the same manner as the vast majority of notable people

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the categories from the ST page and added them to the STB redirect (except for "Female diplomats", which is now on both pages). To the admins cutting and pasting might be more acceptable than copying and pasting. However I also note that you may have left some categories behind. How about "Breast

807:

I can believe that she didn't like any of the "Shirley Temple" variations because they were too sweet, but did she really say that one of the reasons she objected to "Shirley Temple" cocktails is because she doesn't get compensation for the use of her name? I would have thought that a celebrity who

222:

In an earlier version (which, BTW, I know I make too many of), I took out the "most famous" thing out becuase I thought I read that you are supposed to avoid that kind of thing. No biggie. I will conceed the point because, I think that most people wold agree and again, it is fine point of style in

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I find that one of the things that makes Knowledge (XXG) is that the references can be so brief. Unless there is a special relationship between this page and the page point to, you need only minimal explanation. The reader can just drill down if they want extra details. The reference is otherwise

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redirect, despite the issue that results from having "Shirley Temple" alphabetized on category pages under "B". As it's one woman, not two, all the categories should be together. This is an area that our naming and categorization guidelines do not appear to address. I'd be surprised if it hasn't

2743:

the power of my conviction that renaming the article would be an improvement. There is no "consensus against" me. How can there be? A consensus was not reached. There was a "vote" against me; I and at least two other editors are apparently in the "minority"; however, Knowledge (XXG) arbitration

2533:

Okay, in the next section it is seen that it is all right to place some of the categories on the STB redirect page. For future reference, it should be remembered that the categories should find a home on just one of the pages, either this Shirley Temple article or the Shirley Temple Black redirect

2506:

of the appropriate cats to the redirect. I've restored the other one that's not controversial (Breast cancer survivors). Then we, together all of us as editors, must decide on some of the remaining cats as to which page they should be on. I say this because there are some cats that obviously can

1632:

a political career at all.) The crux of her fame, and her notability, is her time as a film star, so that the vast majority of people looking up this person will go to "Shirley Temple". Those few who are aware of Temple's later career and go to "Shirley Temple Black" will be redirected anyway. The

1126:

Thanks. The common usage explanation satisfies me. But I quibble with the second statement. Actors hope to be nominated for their performances in individual films, in either Best Actor/ess or Best Supporting Actor/ess categories. They don't compete for honorary awards, which are typically given

822:

I go to wikipedia for all of my history information. I went to look up Shirley Temple, my favorite childhood actress, and I didn't find much. I just thought I would leave this comment because I feel there is so much more information that you could have in your encyclopedia. Thank you for listening.

661:

SEWilco made a helpful change in the text - though I note that I never claimed that the word "infused" was part of Gibron's quote. I think a more complete discussion of racism in Temple's films might justify the use of the word "infuse", (and note here I do not mean that her films were infused with

603:

A section on racism in Shirley Temple's films is clearly not out of place - indeed, the absence of such a section is a serious flaw in the article, given how much this topic has been discussed both in film and in sociological studies. I agree that the comment that "many of these films are dated and

506:

The couple met in 1950 in Honolulu where Black had been working for a shipping company. They married that same year. "He was an intensley interesting and fascinating man to me," Mrs. Black, a former U.S. ambassador to Ghana, said by phone from her home yesterday night. "I fell in love with him at

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Kaufman: I am going to let your deletion about the religious stuff stand, but the situation is complicated. Now I know that Mr. Black was a Ivy-league educated junior executive. I gotta do some more reading about this. I mentioned the explaination about the religious stuff because I anticipated

152:

The list of movies is huge. Let's pare it down to something representative. There has to be ten that are the most famous. The rest are red (no page), just getting in the way, and there are plently of other web sites with the full filmography, including IMDB. I will wait two days for objections.

2933:

Most editors would seem to agree with you Peter. Just a gentle reminder, tho', that "notability" and "fame" are often separate aspects of a person's life. Mrs. Black achieved both as a childstar. Her notable achievements did not stop there, and she spent a good deal of time achieving notability

1934:

per Ed Fitzgerald's rationale. I did know that her name is currently Black, but her early career GREATLY overshadows everything she's done after her name change. Like it or not, people remember her for her youth. Shirley Temple Black is second best behind Shirley Temple, but it does miss the mark.

1294:

you will find several categories listed that include this person within them. Click on the "American diplomats" category and look for her name. I did. And this is why I am here today writing this. When I clicked on these categories, I found that each and every one of them lists this person not

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page of notable greeks, and a library link. And absolutely no google hits for shirley black "delta theta tau." It may be that it is an established fact but I cannot find it anywhere else other than those pages. I think if citation can't be provided then the information needs to be removed. Thanks.

672:

As Gibron says, there are many bits scattered around which would never be used in a remake of her films. Any old media will have a few things which are not presently acceptable (I recently edited some from a 1900 biology book). A significant review would be relevant, but not a list of every film

573:

It is because the black dancers she worked with had to take on clownish, smiling Sambo-like roles. On the other hand, the target audience of seven-year-old girls are unlikely to go out and join the KKK because they watched a S.T. video. The comment is out-of-place. It is, at best, speculation. --

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Born in 1919, Black earned a master's degree in business from Stanford University and served as a naval intelligence officer in the Pacific theater during World War II, earning the Silver Star and other honors. He also served as a regent for Santa Clara University and helped established a charity

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magazine again later that year with some other very fine women. That is what a lady would want. It is elegant. It is honorific. It gives additional information in a compact form and tells the reader how to get even MORE information, if they wish. It is completely legitimate technique, without

2672:

You see, that's what I'm saying, your intention to force a "Round Two", in spite of the clear and obvious consensus against you, is exactly the disruptive behavior I'm referring to. Again, my warning to you is that travelling that path could well lead to your being blocked, so please proceed with

1789:. Even the weight of the article indicates this: it is more heavily skewed towards her acting career than her later career (as it should be) and the section on references in popular culture makes only one mention of her politics. All of these indicate she is most commonly known as Shirley Temple. 904:

I have removed the Trivia section - which seems to be strongly encouraged by wikipedia. I tried to integrate as many of the significant items from this section into the main body of the article as I could. Anyone who contributed items that have been lost may want to try to integrate them into the

707:

I cannot post the video clips of Shirley Temple below because my family owns evtv1.com and there is a :15 commercial in front of the clips. I have spoken with several long-time editors and they suggested I post the appropriate video clips on the article's talk pages for the editors to see if they

513:

After moving to California, Black started a fishing and hatchery company and worked as a consultant on maritime issues. He served on a U.S. Commerce Department advisory committee as well as various National Research Council panels. He also co-founded a Massachusetts-based company that developed

1747:

Search engines will disagree with this and other statements about "hits" below. Shirley Temple may get more hits than Shirley Temple Black on some search engines; however, one will find that the first choices after searching are all pretty much the same for both the ST and the STB entries, with

1267:

While the "Shirley Temple" name is and has been a notable and well-loved name for 75 years or so, this phenomenal lady has attained an esteemed notability as an adult as well. One can read right here in this article about some of her important achievements and contributions as an ambassador, an

648:

I am new to this page and do not know the culture you have developed here - perhaps personal attacks are accepted as the side effects of the hard work that committed editors often put into their articles, and taken in stride. I will do that here. I do not have an "agenda" (I am not sure what the

339:

2. I sat through "The Little Princess" with my daughter at least a half dozen time, and I loved it because I got to spend time with her and she liked it. At the end of the video, they summarize Temple's work style. She could memorize entire scripts. Steel trap memory. She could learn all the

2708:

Sorry, to answer a question you posed earlier "(out)" means that I'm indicating that I've deliberately "outdented" the comment, instead of continuing the usual indentation scheme. This happens either when the conversation is taking a new tack, or when the indentation becomes too great to allow

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name, at least until she changed professions, and her massive popularity as a performer (really, you should look into it sometime -- if anything, the article undersells her impact on the public in her heyday) versus her modest success as a politician/diplomat leaves no doubt whatsoever, except,

1259:

Yes, this is her name, fellow editors. This is her name now and has been her name for many years since her wedding in 1950. So I would like to ask all the editors who are involved with improving this article, "Would you consider it an improvement to retitle this article with this great lady's

919:

I am not sure the heading labels and organization really hold together very well. I think it might be better to go for something like "early film career" "height of film career" and "later film career" or something like that. Right now heading names are taken from one item in the section that

313:

Yes, I de-wikified the Bobby-Soxer link. I want the page to be nice and complete if people look at it next week because of Mr. Black's passing. The red link bothers me. Can anyone put out a quick review of that film? I have already done something (not very good yet) for her first husband.

2496:

Curious, Ed, as to what the "(out)" means at the beginning of your words just above? Okay, I am glad to be crystal clear on what I meant by "for the present". I'm pretty new here as a member of the community. I've been editing Knowledge (XXG) for many years (just minor stuff and vandalism

1333:

The reasons to retitle this article that are listed above include (1) – takes the subject's adult notability into account, (2) – personally appeals to do this living person a justice and good deed, (3) – brings this article more closely into conformance with Knowledge (XXG) policy on naming

1905:

notability is the result of her entire life of service to people and to her country. Her life taken as a whole is what should be honored here. And the best way to honor this great lady is for her article to be named in the same manner as the vast majority of other notable people in this

427:

OK, some of the source suck on the page, like that last Reagan link: That massive document for just one line. But some of those things are better cites about STB than Knowledge (XXG) will EVER be. I was just trying to dredge up some info on Mr. Black. I heard that there was an obit in

1390:. Those people who search for Shirley Temple will still find her just as easily as they can now. Nothing is lost, and yet this esteemed personage receives proper-name mention in every appropriate part – article, categories, etc. – of this great reference work, Knowledge (XXG). 587:, not the later roles. If you watch these short films, they depict small children in very adult situations--in one film Temple (who was about four at the time) plays a prostitute; in another she's tied to a stake and pelted with mud. A lot of reviewers, including Temple herself in 689:

I have a thing about lists: I do not think that they belong in brilliant prose. A long list of wikilinked costars is information, but the value of all that detail is low. Just characterize her has have worked with "many of the most famous" stars and let it go at that. --

2470:

So, I've restored the cats to the redirect, which has a default sort of "Black, Shirley Temple" so they'll alphabatize correctly, and removed the duplicate cat from this article. It seems to me this puts the issue to rest, and we shouldn't need to discuss it any longer.

745:

Mrs. Black has been trying for about five decades now to get beyond the little girl everyone else is in love with. Keep the post-film-career section about her non-film activities only. It is not like she sat around and watched TV or her own movies for five decades. --

965:

In the child star section, it says she worked for Educational Pictures starting at age 3. Later on, the article says she started working in 1928, the year of her birth! I don't know anything about her, so maybe the birth date is wrong, but one of those dates should be

203:

Now, there are lessons in this little episode. Do we go and apply them to Stepin Fetchit or do we not? Antaeus? What do you think? Quill? Raul? Noitall? (You must have some more to say). And, of course, Mr. Kaufman? Come on, wake up! Wake up! What will it be?

1363:

I think renaming the article won't do justice; She had a notable career in politics and as a diplomat, but reading or hearing the name "Shirley Temple" makes most, if not all people, think of a curly-haired six-year old tap dancing in celluoid, and not as an adult.

1295:

under her present name, but under her child-star name. You won't find her in the "B's" under "Shirley Temple Black", as one would expect to find her in the "California republicans" category. No. You will find her only in the "T's" listed under "Shirley Temple".

1597:

in an encyclopedia with an article titled with her child-star name. The Britannica also "redirects" people from the Shirley Temple Black listing to their Shirley Temple listing with a note to "See Shirley Temple". So I suppose that makes it all right, right?

2675:

In the meantime, as a man married to two woman (at different times, of course) who retained their maiden names after marriage, I'm unimpressed by the gender card you're attempting to play. "Shirley Temple" may have been her "maiden" name, but it was also her

1625:

I think contemporary folks may not understand how truly big a star Temple was in her heyday. If this person had never been a huge child star, there would have been very little attention to her later political career. (In fact, she likely would never have

281:

that the reader would assume that there was something wrong because of his not seeing any of ST's films. The guy just passed away and hopefully some decent info will come out in some obits that will allow us to write a page on him. The whole way that

82:

shirley rules and i think thats "what Brittany rocks.." Shirley Temple said!everyone says. shes the best child star in the world she showed that kids can act so that probaly took alot of time.So thank you shirley.Shirley Temple should be honored as the

2590:

Whether you're "right" or "wrong" is irrelevant, since consensus has determined that the article stays here. As for the category questions you ask - frankly, I have little or no interest in them. I'm sure someone will be happy to engage you on this

296:"Later Shirley Temple met Charlie Black, a man who had been raised in a boarding school with extremely restrictive practices limiting exposure to films and even radio. Charlie was completely unaware of her fame and had never seen any of her movies." 2618:

Good for you, Ed, and thank you very much for the wise, cautionary demeanor you suggest. We seem to disagree on the triviality of the issue, and that is, of course, your prerogative. In my worthless opinion, any notable person who is represented

1338:. This article has a history that goes back seven years to May, 2002. Isn't it high time the title reflects the adult and present name of the honorable and notable Mrs. Black? Any and all discourse on this subject is sought and welcomed. 1155:

reads, it could refer to a competitive award, an honorary award, or in Temple's case a special award. She was a performer as a child and as an adult - so when did she win the award? As a child, of course, but the lead doesn't explain this.

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Now, THAT is what I call judgment! Look at that photo they use as NNDB! It is NOT the little girl. It the later teenager! See how they subtly acknowledge that the woman had a life after she got married? Great call! I congratulate them.

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page is merely a REDIRECT to this article. If one puts oneself in the shoes of this person, how would one feel to come to Knowledge (XXG), look up one's name, and find that it merely redirects to an article with one's child-star name for a

2667:

to investigate, and to perhaps utilize, if I consider that the renaming that I suggest is an article improvement. And I do consider the renaming of this article, as I have herein described, to be an improvement. 07:14, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

1131:

was considering refusing to accept his Honorary Oscar, because he thought filmmakers would get the impression his career was at its end - but he had more films to make, and he's since been nominated for another competitive Oscar. --

2057:

So it is hoped that all who have opposed this move will rethink their positions and realize the impact Mrs. Black has had upon the people of the United States, not just when she was 3 - 9 years old, also while she's been an adult.

775:

I am dubious of the honorary alumnae of Delta Theta Tau claim. I've done a google search for '"Shirley Temple" "Delta Theta Tau"' and come back with 2 wiki links, 1 greek101 link (where you can contribute your own information), 1

3132:

names show up in all the categories, or perhaps even because of both these reasons. However, now, since we find that neither reason is a big deal, then why did the admin revert my edits and rm the cats from the Redirect page?

2804:

consensus on that mattter. Bearing in mind that this is not a !vote, 7 editors expressed opinions against moving the page, and only you and 1 other person were in favor of moving it. As these things go, that's overwhelming.

199:

You walk down the street and hit someone with the name "Shirley Temple". We already know the reaction, or the "vote" if you will, is going to be. Why bother even asking? The biographer is suppose to look beyond that.

2235:

There is at least one category, "Female diplomats" that is on both pages. This results in her name listed twice in this category, once as "Shirley Temple" under the "T's", and also as "Shirley Temple Black" under the

502:

Black died at his home in the San Francisco suburb of Woodside, with his wife off 55 years and other family members by his side. He had suffered from the bone disorder myelodysplastic syndrome for nearly three years.

87:, not just the 1930s... She also carries one of the most famous, familiar names on Earth. Simply stating her to be the most famous child star of the 1930s is a serious understatement. It should be changed immediately. 1809:

regular Google gives more hits to Shirley Temple Black if parentheses aren't used and fewer if they are. In both cases however the first links at the top are pretty much the same, with Knowledge (XXG) out in front –

3047:

I think your difficulty can be adequately resolved by putting the categories in the article in the form: ]; I may not have this quite right. This should make it unnecessary to have categories on the redirect page.

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This isn't quite accurate. The Oscar was awarded to her; she did not compete against other people in any competitive category, so I doubt we can say she "won" the award. Any ideas about alternative wording? --

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This seems to say that dual listings in categories for the same person is not only okay, it is "usually considered helpful". So if this is correct, then it should be okay to list all the categories on both the

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Yes, thank you, and somehow I knew that just the italics showing up on the category pages for the STB cats was not really an issue. The real issue that got the cats removed the first time was that they were on

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No need to back off from what you believe is right - your devotion to proper appreciation to Shirley Temple Black's post-show biz achievements seems quite fitting. Others simply have a different perspective.

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I took down the sorority fact since this is a biography and as the tag states unsourced or poorly sourced items shouldn't be left up there. If anybody has a source for that please feel free to add it again!

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However, the category problem is real, and easily resolved. Move relevant categories to the redirect (they may have to go on the same line) and make a comment among the cats here that this has been done.

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is to use the form of the name most commonly used in the English language. Shirley Temple has always been more well-known for her acting career than her political career. A cursory scholar search reveals

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All of these clips are 100% legal from a copyright status. You have to decide if the :15 commercial is too obtrusive or if the clips are worth the "pain" of the commercial. I leave it up to you. -Jaffer

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Now look at how I did the reference to the breast cancer thing. I could have just come out and written she had breast cancer. What did I do instead? I made a reference to her being on the cover of

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categories should be in the article, none in the redirect. We don't have two articles about the same person, we have one article about a person who is eligible for two different sets of categories.

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If number three isn't really an issue, then I or any one of us can easily fix the other two issues. I would like to hear other opinions about number three, though, before these repairs are made.

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the mark. It is the subject's full, present name and has been her name for nearly 60 years. That's almost three-quarters of her entire life that she's been known as a public service notable named

285:'s death was handled at Knowledge (XXG) was so messy. Let's try to do this one more nicely. We need that ten-word summary of what he was: marine research entrepaneur is close, but we need better. 2105:

Redundancy is a usual fault of the minority, Ed. Please forgive me for the repetition. It was spawned by my intense feelings for the issue. I shall try to be more objective from here on out.

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has not been reached. Dekimasu correctly indicated that a consensus to rename the page has not been reached. If I'm not mistaken this also implies a commutative effect, i.e., that a consensus

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I observe that this article uses a large number of sources. Sources primarily discussing what she did after 1950 are right to use her married name, but there are only two - one a news article.

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Charles Black, a businessman, maritime expert, and the husband of former child star Shirley Temple Black, died yesterday of complication of a bone marrow disease, his wife said. He was 86.

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conventions, and (4) – largely a technical reason, because the only acceptable way to see her full name listed alphabetically in these categories appears to be to retitle this article to

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BTW, use "(ec)" at the beginning of your comment to indicate an edit conflict, and to indicate a comment is later in time than the next comment in the thread, used additional indents.

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It is also usually considered helpful to put redirects into the same categories as their targets, allowing the names of both the redirect and the target to appear in the category.

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If you'll check the edit history of the Shirley Temple Black redirect, you'll find that I already tried this. It was reverted by an admin assumably because her name shows up in

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the ST and the STB pages, thus showing her name twice in those cats. As long as a cat finds its home on only one of the pages, it works just fine. Technical issue resolved.

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I will say this, though, that by pressing that trivial issue in the manner that you are, you are almost certainly headed towards disruptive behavior. I'd take care, were I you.

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That sounds like something I might have done to break up an endless chain of paragraphs. If the material is in chronological order, by all means use chronological sections. (

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I am sure that we all enjoy the obvious insinuation that STB drinks a lot of ST cocktails of all varieties. I am laughing at the newly-widowed person, boys. Ya happy now?

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In addition, the usage of the {{Lifetime}} template takes the place of the {{DEFAULTSORT}} template. So I've removed the redundant template from this article's list.

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NPOV problems, and yet it still allows the author to demonstrate his good breeding and do Mrs. Black a tiny, little favor. The nice gesture is simply "tastefully done".

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The question is (or should be) whether she was more famous as an actress or as a politician and diplomat. I would suggest that it was as a chold actress. Accordingly

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Please do forgive me, because I do not want to be corrective; however, I feel it necessary to point out that, as editor Dekimasu concluded in the previous section, a

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There's no particular need to keep repeating the same arguments. You've made your points, others disagree and have made theirs - now let's see what consensus is.

1733:- articles should be titled with the most common English language name for the person. She is most commonly known as Shirley Temple, not as Shirley Temple Black. 1027: 1034:

Per debate and discussion re: assessment of the approximate 100 top priority articles of the project, this article has been included as a top priority article.

3094: 2988:. Both pages suggest placing alternate names on the redirect pages. The example given in the first link is an exact mirror of the Shirley Temple Black issue. 1581:

cancer survivors", for example. You may also want to consider adding back in the {{Lifetime}} template to the STB redirect page. Thank you for your efforts!

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Knowledge (XXG) always at or near the top of the first page. The name Shirley Temple Black works just as well as the name Shirley Temple in the searches.

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After 15 generations a significant number of people are related to anyone. That probably makes a significant number of people's relationship not notable. (

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be attached to the adult Mrs. Black and other cats to the childstar, and there are other cats that are not so obvious. Following are the cats in question:

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I've moved all cats into this article, no cats in the redirect. Those which need it got a sort to "Black, Shirley Temple". Does this not solve the issue?

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Look dear: SHE JUST LOST HER HUSBAND OF 55 YEARS. If she tried to handle it by going on a bender for three months, I would not blame at all. 'nuff said.

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most famous non-alcoholic cocktail contains an "obvious insinuation" that the person they were named for drinks a lot of cocktails, please do speak up. --

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In an article about America's most famous child star...there are no photos of her as a child! Surely (no pun intended) there are some avaliable for use?

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Whether or not an entire section devoted to this subject is appropriate, the above remark strikes me as inflated rhetoric and indefensible. I think this

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Regarding the fourth reason above, over the last several days I have sought remedies for this situation. There is a partial solution I received at the

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Since people have a "thing" about all those links, I am going to start a new practice here at Knowledge (XXG). I will cite my sources (shock, shock).

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anything to be written without taking up a lot of space. You may also see people using "<--" or other symbols to indicate deliberate outdenting.

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The problem with cat sorting is that it alphabetizes "Shirley Temple" as if it were "Black, Shirley Temple". This could lead to reader confusion.

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How many people have to disagree with you before you realize you're fighting a losing battle? Why don't you just accept the fact that most people

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As far as I am concerned, this is journlistic standards applied to an on-line encyclopedia. Together, we will figure out the right thing to do.

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follows, but other items in the same section do not really relate. I have not changed this for now, but suggest that others give it some thought.

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for all time in an encyclopedia entry by her nee, her childhood, unmarried, maiden name, is being misrepresented, and I do consider this a very

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that would be disruptive, and could get you into trouble. The consensus here was clear, and overwhelming - please don't tilt at that windmill.

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I would question the reliability of the website, furthermore, I believe it is irrelavent to mention this tid bit on an enclyopedia website. -

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I changed the intro. The long list of movie is uninteresting. IMDb has that. Why did I do it. It was practically an involutary act.

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Redirect page, don't you agree? And this makes me wonder why an admin reverted my edits back when I first copied all the cats to the

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dance steps (citation: "Codfish Ball"). She could cry on cue, but the rest time... if was as if she was on happy pills all the time.

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And Antaeus, thanks for cleaning up the extra word "image" in the Stepin Fetchit page. That certainly improved on how I had left it.

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It says she is currently dating OJ simpson???? Can someone delete?? That is super stupid whoever wrote that about her and OJ simpson.

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the categories to the STB redirect. So she was listed twice in those categories, once as ST and again as STB. I see that you have

1511:, which I had to look up. The assertion that she is universally referred to by her married name is, as with Alice, patent nonsense. 992: 558:

From the second paragraph of the Film career section: "Many of these films are dated and would be considered offensive now." Why? --

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American diplomat. One would think that this personage is deserving of an encyclopedic entry that begins with her present name,

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Taken as a very valid point. The beauty of this proposal, though, is that nothing is really lost. The article will be called "

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I called my local KR newsdesk and they confirmed Mr. Black's death. Knight Ridder Community Newspapers Inc. (650) 327-9090

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put it. It may get me nowhere. However this possibility does not dissuade me from knowing that renaming this article to

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PS. At great risk of being redundant and repetitive, I brought this up in the previous section as the number 4 issue, the

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Most of the world knows her as Shirley Temple, child actress, and will search for her in Knowledge (XXG) under that name.

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Now I guesss I will have to scrounge for a copy of the rag (it is actually a nice paper, I just like rough humor a lot).

1963:. Don't you think she's earned the notability of being remembered in this encyclopedia by her full and present name? 2627:

issue. And just because "Round One" is ended, there is no reason not to go on to "Round Two", whatever that may be.

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Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

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Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

1503:

Is she most notable as an actress, or as a second-string diplomat? The question answers itself. As a parallel, we use

777: 2981: 1462:. I can see the argument for her maiden name, but today she is almost universally referred to by her married name. 379: 3168: 1369: 196:

For IMDB to have the photo of the little girl works also, because IMDB is only about her movies. That works also.

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There are still categories on the Shirley Temple page that ought to be on the Shirley Temple Black redirect page.

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There might be an issue regarding those categories on the Shirley Temple Black redirect page. Her name becomes

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Black", not "Shirley Black" nor "Shirley Jane Black", so the "Shirley Temple" is retained, both for the sake of

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Shirley Temple's 15th great grandfather is Chaucer. Not sure how reliable this may be; should it be mentioned?

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the dates of her husband's death in this page don't match up. Does anyone know for sure the day and the year?

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On second thought: I am doing it now. There are twelve movies that are blue (they have pages). The rest go.

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encyclopedia. It's not a fansite, or promotional, or a memorial, (I'm sure you know all the other stuff at

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has gained such notoriety that he/she was honored with a namesake beverage would be a bit more gracious. -

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The link for "Poor Little Rich Girl" goes to the Andy Warhol movie -- quite a different story, I imagine.

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If any sane person thinks that observing the perfect true fact that several cocktails including probably

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She was a Republican? Is she no longer a Republican? This is a somewhat abrupt and ambiguous statement.

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article should stay at "Shirley Temple", but should begin with the bolded name "Shirley Temple Black".

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upon the subject of our conversation, except to say that I do not feel there is any "force" involved

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Either put the appropriate categories on the STB Redirect page and settle for her name showing up in

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I read somewhere that Shirley Temple had a fetish for surgery. Does anyone have any proof of this?

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apparently, in your mind, about which of her two names is more appropriate to adorn the article.

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Saw your P.S. concerning consensus. I'm afraid you are incorrect. Deskana said that there was

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are recognized in Knowledge (XXG): by her full, present adult name of Shirley Temple Black.

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The Palo Alto Daily News (the Friday edition, i.e. the August 5, 2005 edition FYI) says this:

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on the category pages. This happens because the categories are listed on a redirect page.

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first sight. It sounds corny, but that's what happened. But I don't think he did with me."

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with one second of obsolete material. And I couldn't find a "racism in film" article. (

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1. I listen to KQED in San Francisco. Every Sunday, they have City Arts & Lectures.

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come up before, but I haven't yet found any precedent for what is done in these cases.

2388: 2021: 1303:. I found that by changing a Category template to include her full name, like this... 1128: 393: 3124:

Redirect page? I thought it was either because the name shows up in the categories in

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That is why I made the changes. In light of the recent events, it also reads well.

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Why don't we have a picture of her as a child, if that is how she is remembered?

1776:- As stated by Ed Fitzgerald and Geraldk, the title does not need to be moved. The 1734: 1421: 1156: 1109: 931: 887: 674: 474: 447: 315: 300: 246: 227: 205: 176: 1859:, anybody searching for "Shirley Temple" would find her article just as easily. 985:

iS SHiRLEy TEMPLE STiLL ALiVE BECAUSE i HAVE N0T HEARD ANyTHiNG ELSE ABOUT HER.

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If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the

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If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the

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in those category lists evidently because it is generated from a redirect page.

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Here is a Shirley site you might like to look at: Shirley Temple: Little Star

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PS. In all honesty, another reason the admin reverted was because I had only

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Actually, that's a good idea, Ed. Another editor recently added the bolded

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But to ignore this topic undermines the credibility of the entire article.

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I would suggest that it may not be a good idea to move categories to the

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Anyone want to mention how SNL and the Simpsons both made fun of her?

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The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal.

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Apologies, I hadn't stumbled across that particular page yet. =)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal.

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Done; undo my edits if moved. I also removed two redundant cats.

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I think Shirley Temple is a really awesome actress and person.

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Shirley Temple Black: it's been an exciting, fulfilling journey

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Now, I feel that I have described part of MY creative process.

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BTW: My citation on the religious stuff (I assume it is true):

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How does it miss the mark, Royalbroil? Shirley Temple Black

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What about the mixed nonalcoholic drink named after her? --

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Could someone elaborate on this? Racism in Temple's Films

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As stated above, since the article would be renamed to "

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Female Frontiers QuestChat Archive: Shirley Temple Black

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the change you proposed and move on to something else?

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and polished it a little. Thank you for your input!

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A Shirley Temple-style dress appeared in an episode of

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unmanned deep ocean search and survey imaging systems.

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which use "Shirley Temple"; only a third even mention

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Knowledge (XXG) talk:WikiProject Actors and Filmmakers

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Mrs. Black, 77, was 22, when she and her husband met.

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http://www.adherents.com/people/pt/Shirley_Temple.html

760:I added the bit about the colorized re-releases. ( 423:Lists Mr. Black, Member - Marine Mammal Commission 2522:Any other cats that editors might like to discuss 3095:Knowledge (XXG):Template messages/Redirect pages 591:, note the controversial nature of these films. 3099: 1906:encyclopedia: Using her full, present name. 160:Why not spin it off into a seperate article -- 496:Shirley Temple's spouse, C. Black, dead at 86 106:Finding copyright-free pictures is difficult. 2327:And BTW, what do you mean "for the present?" 8: 2418:. There are two ways to get her full name, 1239:to move the page, per the discussion below. 981:i'M W0NDERiNG WHAT EVER HAPPENED TO HER NOW. 2980:You will find what you are looking for at 1695:Knowledge (XXG) talk:WikiProject Diplomacy 1691:Knowledge (XXG) talk:WikiProject Biography 729:http://www.evtv1.com/index.asp-itemnum-225 723:http://www.evtv1.com/index.asp-itemnum-223 717:http://www.evtv1.com/index.asp-itemnum-226 629:of the argument Gogh is attempting to make 175:Great idea. Im will do that. Thank you. 2984:(under the "Form of entries" section) or 1263:There are some good reasons to do this: 741:Keep the film career stuff in its section 2422:, into those categories under the "B's": 1188:I agree. I also moved the statement to 522:The famous Shirley Temple dress seen in 3174:Do not edit the contents of this page. 2213:result, regarding the renaming of the 1592:This person is "most notable" for her 1466:'s guidance, I think, supports this. 715:Shirley Temple Dancing With Bojangles 583:Actually, the comment referred to the 148:What is with the giant list of movies? 85:the most famous child star of all time 44:Do not edit the contents of this page. 1703:Knowledge (XXG) talk:WikiProject Film 708:wish to post them in external links. 631:. Gogh seems to me an editor with an 7: 1028:WP:WikiProject Actors and Filmmakers 842:According to IMDb: August 4, 2005. ( 370:Whatever happened to Shirley Temple? 1290:Categories. If you scroll down to 2853:Again, thank you very much, Ed! 2273:There's absolutely no issue here, 2020:As a wider view, Google books has 1434:Thank you for your concurrence! 1285:Knowledge (XXG) naming conventions 543:was transformed into the dress by 406:Lists Mr. Black as Trustee Emeriti 399:Shirley Temple & Charles Black 24: 1787:248 hits for Shirley Temple Black 433:http://www.paloaltodailynews.com/ 271:http://www.paloaltodailynews.com/ 3159: 3144: 3136: 3075: 3067: 3023: 3015: 2945: 2937: 2902: 2894: 2864: 2856: 2767: 2759: 2638: 2630: 2574: 2566: 2545: 2537: 2402: 2394: 2365: 2357: 2260: 2252: 2116: 2108: 2069: 2061: 1974: 1966: 1917: 1909: 1870: 1862: 1824: 1816: 1759: 1751: 1673: 1665: 1608: 1600: 1558: 1550: 1486: 1478: 1445: 1437: 1401: 1393: 1349: 1341: 1203: 1195: 366:Much info, but also sells dolls. 324:Justification for recent changes 214:A fine point about references... 97:http://littlestar.bravepages.com 29: 2784:"no consensus to move the page" 1235:The result of the proposal was 394:I was a Shirley Temple Wannabe! 309:A fine point: News and niceness 1901:Rossrs, as I mentioned above, 1475:Thank you for your support! 1317: 1314: 1307: 727:Shirley Temple’s 6th Birthday 389:Shirley Temple Personal Detail 236:A point of style/Breast Cancer 1: 3093:Somehow I missed this --: --> 2756:is a definite improvement. 1011:s in your title with zeroes. 976:05:43, 31 December 2007 (UTC) 956:20:18, 17 November 2007 (UTC) 813:02:56, 21 November 2006 (UTC) 627:"undermines the credibility" 568:17:59, 27 December 2005 (UTC) 1783:5320 hits for Shirley Temple 1001:01:17, 11 January 2008 (UTC) 905:body of the article as well. 836:07:19, 30 January 2007 (UTC) 803:Use Of Her Name For Beverage 751:12:54, 21 January 2006 (UTC) 695:11:29, 18 January 2006 (UTC) 579:11:27, 18 January 2006 (UTC) 2225:The "categories" issue set: 1170:08:09, 17 August 2008 (UTC) 1142:07:09, 17 August 2008 (UTC) 1118:04:33, 17 August 2008 (UTC) 1103:23:53, 16 August 2008 (UTC) 778:University of North Florida 478:01:24, 10 August 2005 (UTC) 3215: 2961:Categories on the redirect 1778:standard naming convention 1689:This discussion listed at 1420:- the right thing to do. 1292:the bottom of this article 1007:You forgot to replace two 935:05:21, 1 August 2007 (UTC) 891:05:18, 1 August 2007 (UTC) 847:09:07, 15 March 2007 (UTC) 797:21:01, 9 August 2006 (UTC) 786:05:03, 7 August 2006 (UTC) 765:05:01, 19 March 2006 (UTC) 721:Shirley Temple War Babies 700:Shirley Temple Video clips 678:05:16, 1 August 2007 (UTC) 596:08:46, 16 March 2006 (UTC) 465:22:33, 8 August 2005 (UTC) 451:00:57, 8 August 2005 (UTC) 416:Temple: Seventh Generation 319:05:42, 7 August 2005 (UTC) 304:05:35, 7 August 2005 (UTC) 250:16:00, 6 August 2005 (UTC) 231:16:19, 6 August 2005 (UTC) 209:17:45, 5 August 2005 (UTC) 180:16:20, 6 August 2005 (UTC) 162:Shirley Temple Filmography 123:that SNL and the Simpsons 3152:17:34, 20 June 2009 (UTC) 2982:Display of category pages 2519:The {{Lifetime}} template 2460:going to be renamed, and 2433:on the category pages, or 1301:Knowledge (XXG):Help Desk 1044:00:50, 1 March 2008 (UTC) 1021:16:12, 7 March 2008 (UTC) 942:Bad Link. Bad, Bad Link! 925:00:45, 30 July 2007 (UTC) 910:00:45, 30 July 2007 (UTC) 900:Removal of Trivia Section 667:16:21, 29 July 2007 (UTC) 654:07:24, 29 July 2007 (UTC) 640:07:04, 29 July 2007 (UTC) 609:06:52, 29 July 2007 (UTC) 375:Shirley Temple "Religion" 260:23:38, 29 July 2007 (UTC) 3083:02:11, 1 June 2009 (UTC) 3058:21:27, 31 May 2009 (UTC) 3040:00:29, 1 June 2009 (UTC) 3031:17:16, 31 May 2009 (UTC) 3003:15:27, 31 May 2009 (UTC) 2975:13:22, 31 May 2009 (UTC) 2953:02:24, 1 June 2009 (UTC) 2929:21:23, 31 May 2009 (UTC) 2910:17:55, 31 May 2009 (UTC) 2872:08:00, 31 May 2009 (UTC) 2849:07:24, 31 May 2009 (UTC) 2825:07:24, 31 May 2009 (UTC) 2775:08:00, 31 May 2009 (UTC) 2729:07:00, 31 May 2009 (UTC) 2703:06:58, 31 May 2009 (UTC) 2646:05:58, 31 May 2009 (UTC) 2613:03:38, 31 May 2009 (UTC) 2582:02:04, 31 May 2009 (UTC) 2553:17:34, 31 May 2009 (UTC) 2491:01:21, 31 May 2009 (UTC) 2410:00:37, 31 May 2009 (UTC) 2384:23:22, 30 May 2009 (UTC) 2373:00:46, 31 May 2009 (UTC) 2352:Please assume good faith 2347:21:35, 30 May 2009 (UTC) 2323:21:35, 30 May 2009 (UTC) 2299:21:29, 30 May 2009 (UTC) 2268:21:06, 30 May 2009 (UTC) 2195:Please do not modify it. 2181:07:32, 29 May 2009 (UTC) 2149:06:19, 29 May 2009 (UTC) 2124:04:48, 29 May 2009 (UTC) 2101:04:20, 29 May 2009 (UTC) 2077:04:06, 29 May 2009 (UTC) 2038:15:24, 28 May 2009 (UTC) 2007:19:29, 29 May 2009 (UTC) 1982:03:42, 29 May 2009 (UTC) 1949:02:35, 29 May 2009 (UTC) 1925:03:42, 29 May 2009 (UTC) 1897:22:03, 28 May 2009 (UTC) 1878:03:42, 29 May 2009 (UTC) 1851:20:09, 28 May 2009 (UTC) 1832:03:42, 29 May 2009 (UTC) 1804:19:19, 28 May 2009 (UTC) 1767:03:42, 29 May 2009 (UTC) 1743:18:31, 28 May 2009 (UTC) 1724:18:23, 28 May 2009 (UTC) 1681:03:10, 29 May 2009 (UTC) 1653:18:13, 28 May 2009 (UTC) 1616:02:52, 29 May 2009 (UTC) 1566:02:52, 29 May 2009 (UTC) 1539:16:31, 28 May 2009 (UTC) 1525:15:16, 28 May 2009 (UTC) 1509:Alice Liddell Hargreaves 1494:03:10, 29 May 2009 (UTC) 1471:12:20, 28 May 2009 (UTC) 1453:03:10, 29 May 2009 (UTC) 1430:12:43, 21 May 2009 (UTC) 1409:08:43, 21 May 2009 (UTC) 1374:06:47, 21 May 2009 (UTC) 1357:04:04, 21 May 2009 (UTC) 1249:15:17, 30 May 2009 (UTC) 1227:Please do not modify it. 1063:15:55, 3 June 2008 (UTC) 882:08:04, 28 May 2007 (UTC) 870:18:30, 25 May 2007 (UTC) 333:http://www.cityarts.net/ 265:The passing of Mr. Black 188:Look at that NNDB entry! 140:22:21, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC) 131:07:13, 25 Feb 2004 (UTC) 110:07:00, 17 Aug 2003 (UTC) 2513:Kennedy Center honorees 2436:Rename this article to 1211:05:13, 2 May 2009 (UTC) 3109: 3097:before, which reads: 2986:Categorizing redirects 2510:American Presbyterians 2160:completely neutral POV 1903:Shirley Temple Black's 421:Reagan Appointee Files 404:NDNU Board of Trustees 3172:of past discussions. 2787:, not that there was 2205:Requested move result 2164:our personal feelings 2162:-- without regard to 1857:Shirley Temple" Black 1275:Instead of this, the 1180:Political affiliation 826: 553: 489:Obituary on Mr. Black 127:both made fun of? -- 42:of past discussions. 3118:Shirley Temple Black 2967:Shirley Temple Black 2754:Shirley Temple Black 2438:Shirley Temple Black 2420:Shirley Temple Black 2416:main technical issue 2219:Shirley Temple Black 2051:Shirley Temple Black 2026:Shirley Temple Black 1961:Shirley Temple Black 1659:Shirley Temple Black 1501:Very strongly oppose 1336:Shirley Temple Black 1277:Shirley Temple Black 1270:Shirley Temple Black 1255:Shirley Temple Black 1049:Pictures as a child? 2790:no consensus as to 2158:). Articles have a 1030:priority assessment 810:Grammaticus Repairo 593:Mademoiselle Sabina 412:Submitted Geneology 276:What was Mr. Black? 18:Talk:Shirley Temple 2054: 1623:Very strong oppose 1418:Concur with change 1388:search engine hits 518:that helps youth. 3202: 3201: 3184: 3183: 3178:current talk page 3150: 3081: 3029: 2951: 2908: 2870: 2773: 2644: 2580: 2551: 2408: 2371: 2266: 2122: 2075: 2049: 2036: 1980: 1923: 1876: 1830: 1765: 1726: 1679: 1614: 1564: 1537: 1523: 1492: 1451: 1407: 1355: 1247: 1209: 1003: 991:comment added by 857:Famous Relatives? 733:Unsigned post by 72: 71: 54: 53: 48:current talk page 3206: 3193: 3186: 3185: 3163: 3162: 3156: 3148: 3140: 3134: 3107: 3079: 3071: 3065: 3027: 3019: 3013: 3001: 2997: 2994: 2949: 2941: 2935: 2906: 2898: 2892: 2868: 2860: 2854: 2847: 2823: 2771: 2763: 2757: 2727: 2701: 2642: 2634: 2628: 2611: 2578: 2570: 2564: 2549: 2541: 2535: 2502:You've restored 2489: 2406: 2398: 2392: 2369: 2361: 2355: 2345: 2321: 2297: 2264: 2256: 2250: 2197: 2179: 2175: 2172: 2147: 2120: 2112: 2106: 2099: 2073: 2065: 2059: 2032: 1978: 1970: 1964: 1945: 1940: 1921: 1913: 1907: 1874: 1866: 1860: 1828: 1820: 1814: 1802: 1798: 1795: 1763: 1755: 1749: 1722: 1688: 1677: 1669: 1663: 1651: 1612: 1604: 1598: 1562: 1554: 1548: 1533: 1519: 1490: 1482: 1476: 1449: 1441: 1435: 1405: 1397: 1391: 1386:for the sake of 1353: 1345: 1339: 1322: 1315: 1312: 1260:present name?" 1243: 1229: 1207: 1199: 1193: 986: 462:Antaeus Feldspar 63: 56: 55: 33: 32: 26: 3214: 3213: 3209: 3208: 3207: 3205: 3204: 3203: 3189: 3160: 3141:Paine Ellsworth 3108: 3105: 3091: 3072:Paine Ellsworth 3020:Paine Ellsworth 2995: 2992: 2989: 2963: 2942:Paine Ellsworth 2899:Paine Ellsworth 2861:Paine Ellsworth 2845: 2830: 2821: 2806: 2764:Paine Ellsworth 2744:is not left to 2725: 2710: 2699: 2684: 2635:Paine Ellsworth 2609: 2594: 2571:Paine Ellsworth 2542:Paine Ellsworth 2487: 2472: 2399:Paine Ellsworth 2362:Paine Ellsworth 2343: 2328: 2319: 2304: 2295: 2280: 2257:Paine Ellsworth 2207: 2202: 2193: 2173: 2170: 2167: 2145: 2130: 2113:Paine Ellsworth 2097: 2082: 2066:Paine Ellsworth 2030:Septentrionalis 2015: 1971:Paine Ellsworth 1943: 1938: 1914:Paine Ellsworth 1867:Paine Ellsworth 1839:Strongly oppose 1821:Paine Ellsworth 1796: 1793: 1790: 1756:Paine Ellsworth 1720: 1705: 1670:Paine Ellsworth 1649: 1634: 1605:Paine Ellsworth 1555:Paine Ellsworth 1531:Septentrionalis 1517:Septentrionalis 1483:Paine Ellsworth 1442:Paine Ellsworth 1398:Paine Ellsworth 1346:Paine Ellsworth 1257: 1225: 1219: 1182: 1070: 1051: 1032: 983: 963: 948:Pittsburgh Poet 944: 917: 902: 859: 829: 827:husband's death 820: 805: 794:ImmortalGoddezz 783:ImmortalGoddezz 773: 771:Delta Theta Tau 758: 743: 702: 687: 556: 529: 491: 444: 352: 326: 311: 278: 267: 238: 216: 190: 166:John Barleycorn 150: 77: 59: 30: 22: 21: 20: 12: 11: 5: 3212: 3210: 3200: 3199: 3194: 3182: 3181: 3164: 3114:Shirley Temple 3103: 3090: 3087: 3086: 3085: 3045: 3044: 3043: 3042: 3033: 2962: 2959: 2958: 2957: 2956: 2955: 2889: 2888: 2887: 2886: 2885: 2884: 2883: 2882: 2881: 2880: 2879: 2878: 2877: 2876: 2875: 2874: 2837: 2813: 2779: 2778: 2777: 2717: 2691: 2670: 2669: 2668: 2621:for any reason 2601: 2585: 2584: 2560: 2559: 2558: 2557: 2556: 2555: 2526: 2525: 2524: 2523: 2520: 2517: 2514: 2511: 2499: 2498: 2479: 2452: 2451: 2450: 2449: 2448: 2447: 2446: 2445: 2444: 2443: 2442: 2441: 2434: 2424: 2423: 2377: 2376: 2375: 2335: 2311: 2287: 2247: 2246: 2245: 2244: 2237: 2233: 2227: 2226: 2215:Shirley Temple 2206: 2203: 2201: 2200: 2189: 2188: 2187: 2186: 2185: 2184: 2183: 2151: 2137: 2089: 2048: 2047: 2014: 2011: 2010: 2009: 1999:209.247.22.164 1987: 1986: 1985: 1984: 1929: 1928: 1927: 1882: 1881: 1880: 1843:209.247.22.166 1836: 1835: 1834: 1771: 1770: 1769: 1712: 1686: 1685: 1684: 1683: 1641: 1620: 1619: 1618: 1587: 1586: 1585: 1584: 1583: 1582: 1569: 1568: 1527: 1498: 1497: 1496: 1457: 1456: 1455: 1414: 1413: 1412: 1411: 1380:Shirley Temple 1366:Blake Gripling 1360: 1359: 1324: 1323: 1313: 1297: 1296: 1288: 1281: 1273: 1256: 1253: 1252: 1233: 1232: 1220: 1218: 1217:Requested move 1215: 1214: 1213: 1181: 1178: 1177: 1176: 1175: 1174: 1173: 1172: 1147: 1146: 1145: 1144: 1121: 1120: 1069: 1066: 1050: 1047: 1031: 1025: 1024: 1023: 982: 979: 968:69.177.232.182 962: 959: 943: 940: 939: 938: 916: 913: 901: 898: 897: 896: 895: 894: 884: 858: 855: 851: 850: 844:JosephASpadaro 828: 825: 819: 816: 804: 801: 800: 799: 772: 769: 757: 754: 742: 739: 701: 698: 686: 683: 682: 681: 659: 658: 657: 656: 643: 642: 620: 619: 601: 600: 599: 598: 555: 552: 545:Mother Mae-Eye 528: 520: 490: 487: 485: 483: 482: 481: 480: 468: 467: 443: 440: 436: 435: 425: 424: 418: 413: 407: 401: 396: 391: 386: 377: 372: 367: 361: 351: 348: 325: 322: 310: 307: 283:Andrea Dworkin 277: 274: 266: 263: 237: 234: 215: 212: 189: 186: 185: 184: 183: 182: 170: 169: 149: 146: 142: 134: 133: 132: 119:Why? Is there 113: 112: 111: 100: 93: 89: 76: 73: 70: 69: 64: 52: 51: 34: 23: 15: 14: 13: 10: 9: 6: 4: 3: 2: 3211: 3198: 3195: 3192: 3188: 3187: 3179: 3175: 3171: 3170: 3165: 3158: 3157: 3154: 3153: 3149: 3147: 3142: 3138: 3131: 3128:, or because 3127: 3123: 3119: 3116:page and the 3115: 3102: 3098: 3096: 3088: 3084: 3080: 3078: 3073: 3069: 3062: 3061: 3060: 3059: 3055: 3051: 3050:Peterkingiron 3041: 3038: 3034: 3032: 3028: 3026: 3021: 3017: 3011: 3006: 3005: 3004: 3000: 2998: 2987: 2983: 2979: 2978: 2977: 2976: 2973: 2968: 2960: 2954: 2950: 2948: 2943: 2939: 2932: 2931: 2930: 2926: 2922: 2921:Peterkingiron 2918: 2914: 2913: 2912: 2911: 2907: 2905: 2900: 2896: 2873: 2869: 2867: 2862: 2858: 2852: 2851: 2850: 2846: 2844: 2840: 2836: 2835: 2834:Ed Fitzgerald 2828: 2827: 2826: 2822: 2820: 2816: 2812: 2811: 2810:Ed Fitzgerald 2803: 2802: 2801: 2796:-- there was 2795: 2794: 2793: 2786: 2785: 2780: 2776: 2772: 2770: 2765: 2761: 2755: 2751: 2747: 2746:a mere "vote" 2742: 2737: 2734: 2733: 2732: 2731: 2730: 2726: 2724: 2720: 2716: 2715: 2714:Ed Fitzgerald 2707: 2706: 2705: 2704: 2700: 2698: 2694: 2690: 2689: 2688:Ed Fitzgerald 2681: 2680: 2671: 2665: 2661: 2657: 2654: 2651: 2650: 2649: 2648: 2647: 2643: 2641: 2636: 2632: 2626: 2622: 2617: 2616: 2615: 2614: 2610: 2608: 2604: 2600: 2599: 2598:Ed Fitzgerald 2589: 2588: 2587: 2586: 2583: 2579: 2577: 2572: 2568: 2562: 2561: 2554: 2550: 2548: 2543: 2539: 2532: 2531: 2530: 2529: 2528: 2527: 2521: 2518: 2516:Living people 2515: 2512: 2509: 2508: 2505: 2501: 2500: 2495: 2494: 2493: 2492: 2488: 2486: 2482: 2478: 2477: 2476:Ed Fitzgerald 2468: 2465: 2464: 2459: 2458: 2439: 2435: 2432: 2428: 2427: 2426: 2425: 2421: 2417: 2413: 2412: 2411: 2407: 2405: 2400: 2396: 2390: 2387: 2386: 2385: 2382: 2378: 2374: 2370: 2368: 2363: 2359: 2353: 2350: 2349: 2348: 2344: 2342: 2338: 2334: 2333: 2332:Ed Fitzgerald 2326: 2325: 2324: 2320: 2318: 2314: 2310: 2309: 2308:Ed Fitzgerald 2302: 2301: 2300: 2296: 2294: 2290: 2286: 2285: 2284:Ed Fitzgerald 2278: 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565: 561: 551: 550: 549:User:Angie Y. 546: 542: 538: 534: 527: 526: 521: 519: 515: 511: 508: 504: 500: 497: 494: 488: 486: 479: 476: 472: 471: 470: 469: 466: 463: 459: 455: 454: 453: 452: 449: 442:I am laughing 441: 439: 434: 431: 430: 429: 422: 419: 417: 414: 411: 410:Charles Black 408: 405: 402: 400: 397: 395: 392: 390: 387: 385: 381: 378: 376: 373: 371: 368: 365: 362: 360: 357: 356: 355: 349: 347: 344: 341: 337: 334: 329: 323: 321: 320: 317: 308: 306: 305: 302: 297: 294: 293: 289: 286: 284: 275: 273: 272: 264: 262: 261: 258: 252: 251: 248: 243: 235: 233: 232: 229: 224: 220: 213: 211: 210: 207: 201: 197: 194: 187: 181: 178: 174: 173: 172: 171: 167: 163: 159: 158: 157: 154: 147: 145: 141: 139: 130: 126: 122: 118: 117: 116: 109: 105: 104: 103: 99: 98: 92: 88: 86: 81: 75:Headline text 74: 68: 65: 62: 58: 57: 49: 45: 41: 40: 35: 28: 27: 19: 3190: 3173: 3167: 3146: 3137: 3129: 3125: 3121: 3117: 3113: 3110: 3100: 3092: 3077: 3068: 3046: 3025: 3016: 3009: 2964: 2947: 2938: 2916: 2904: 2895: 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