1343:. By the same token I donât think the âproto-fascistâ accusation belongs in the lead; although not in WPâs voice it has undue prominence there. I think that it belongs in the History section, and that it should be accompanied by some statement to provides contextâIIRC it was provoked by the schism of SnG from the SNP, whose leader would scarcely be expected to be complimentary under the circumstances. (I havenât reviewed all the sources in the article, but I wouldnât be surprised if such info is already there.) Further, although the racism claim is cited, ISTM that âanti-English racismââby fellow âwhiteâ northwestern Europeansâis scarcely the first kind of racism that comes to mind nowadays, so should be qualified as such, as the source does. In fact I think Iâll
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404:"Dangerous Fascists, Criminal tendencies and links to drug culture"? I don't know that we are talking about the same organization here. This isn't the IRA.They have no secret military order. How do you define dangerous? They have no weapons, have never made overtones to overthrow any government whether in Edinburgh or in London, nor threatened to carry out any kind of terrorist activity. As for links with the drug culture, any evidence for that ridiculous statement? They don't take sides between Protestants and Catholics and much of what you say is rumor, hear say or own paranoid delusion.
1286:*sÄlon "seed", from which English "seed" is also derived. It's primary meaning is seed (plant or animal), but it also has the strong secondary meaning of "breed" or "genealogical line". Which is presumably why the author of this article went on a spree of explaining why there's no equivalant. I think with a good explanation of the root (I can do that some time next week), most instances of "sĂŹol" in the text could then be replaced with "line".
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457:- well, that's worse I suppose. More neutral language may be in order, but I think the information that Martin Shipway has added is interesting, and most of it should remain in some form. p.s. If you look, you will see I have edited plenty of articles on different subject areas, in case you're wondering. p.p.s. I am only going to leave one NPOV notice, because that's enough. --
400:(on the political right). In short even some SNP MSP's are known to hold beliefs outside of the official SNP manifesto. If I had to some up the SnG - I would call them dangerous Fascists with criminal tendancies with links to the drug culture, who have successfully recruited from within the SNP. Realistically they have no support in Scotland their numbers are small.
380:
crook and nothing more) who ran the SnG by brute force and violent threats. He fancied himself as some kind of
Gangster or Godfather and there were rumours of him being involved in Drug dealing in Edinburgh. Yet he is glorified and whitewashed by the SnG as some kind of political saint or hero. In my opinion Ultranationalist is very apt and to the point.
384:
version of the
Knights Templars which they called the Black Chapter (all invention and hokum on their part) but sought to use this as a secret military wing of their group. I can tell you that I have sat in SNP branch meetings and heard members of that party openly discuss their membership of SnG and attempt (usually unsuccessfully) to recruit others.
1450:
described in the mainstream press as ultra-nationalist, crypto-fascist or proto-fascist, does not address this in the opening paragraph. I rewrote the lead to add what I thought was a fairly balanced and well-cited summary of SnG's political views, but it has been moved to the bottom of the article. Can we keep this in the lead too?
392:
Americans and
Canadians who appeared to be sympathetic to their causes were fed a course of misinformation and exaggeration of the situation in Scotland, as a way to keep their support and financial contributions flowing. The SnG was in fact a money making racket, which preyed on Romantic Nationalist sentiments.
1385:
I don't think they are seriously classified as "fascist" or if that term has any meaning in a
Scottish setting. They are not tied to the mainline UK far-right (BNP, NF, loyalist) politics. Obviously, they are Gaelic nationalists... apparently in a sense closer to the Irish model. I'm not sure that we
441:
Indeed, it is exaggerated propaganda at best. At worst I can think of a four letter word for it. I don't consider a handful of deluded young men, who Jackie Stokes once surrounded himself with as boys (for whatever reason and no good one I can think of) to be a Kilted column. I am always wary when
379:
Not at all, I was previously a member of the SNP (Scottish
National Party) in the 1990's and through that political party came into contact with people who were linked to these dangerous fruitcakes. What is not said here is that Stokes was a convicted felon (for non-political reasons - just a common
849:
s.n.g. state "the patent existence of a
Scottish Ethnicity from the English Border to the Pentland Firth and from Harris to Buchan". Having identified the Scots as a separate ethnic group they state that "a bustling English Settlement located within Scotland is not a healthy viable community at all.
918:
I kept reverting this back as I was annoyed at the sweeping changes made to it by someone who had condensed it to a very small version. I was made aware by a friend that this person re-wrote the article to contain accusations of racism and it was my idea that said person was biased toward Siol nan
868:
As for the multiple IP addresses, there is nothing "suspicious" or "dodgy" about connecting to the internet though a dynamic proxy server. It is of particular use, however, if one is trying to protect oneself from groups such as the "Nine of
Diamonds Project". This is a shadowy republican campaign
470:
Ok, I wasn't seriously suggesting that my having heard of something is an actual criteria for including it in wikipedia (if that were true goodness knows what it would look like :P ). My point is that if you take what is there at face value you get a grossly exaggerated impression of sng's size and
399:
The SnG exploits the fact that the SNP ranks contain people of various political schisms, They range from
Extremist Republican Marxists (1979 group) who sought to set up a left-wing Socialist Republic - membership of which included Alex Salmond the current SNP leader, anti-monarchists, to ex-Tories
1306:
I'm reverting to socialist for now. I'm NOT saying it's either but at the moment, the only refs I can find say "ultranationalist" and "socialist" except a quote by some SNP guy calling them proto fascists. If they are, of course it's ok to add that but we really need a ref before labelling a party
391:
The SnG attempted to find funding in the USA and Canada, by promoting their websites there and utilizing (as so many extremist groups have done) the US 1st
Amendement to publish their opinions. Their 'Black Chapter' also sought to delude Americans into parting with cash to be 'knighted' by them.
383:
Scotland to her credit has since the 19th century had a history of peaceful protests and honest open political movements, the SnG however advocated violence as a means to an end and this is in the face of democracy and the wishes of the
Scottish people. They also had invented their own ridiculous
857:
During the course of this article SnG identify the Scots and the English as two distinct races and advocates the preferential treatment of one race over the over. In the above case this consists of forcibly handing property owned by English people in Scotland to Scots who would be asked to return
395:
I put it to you that the SnG are indeed Ultranationalist, that they are racist, politically extreme right of centre, that they were prepared to arm themselves and drill in military array. I consider the SnG to be an ongoing threat to Scotland, in that they claim that after Independence they will
387:
It is true that the SnG modelled itself on the IRA, preached terrorism as a means to an end, and are pro-Roman Catholic, but let's face it the situation is quite different. Scotland is not Ireland, and the majority of Scots are not RC, but in fact protestant. The majority of Scots are actually
914:
As the person who wrote the article which is now under heated discussion, I admit it appears to be biased in various places and has few citations. This was the first article I put on Knowledge (XXG) and I take the neutral point of view seriously. I will re-write the article to a more acceptable
853:
The article also advocates forced repatriation. It states that "should we swap our English for it would offer the exciting and interesting prospect of so many Scots returnees, qualified primarily by their nationality, having to manage and administer a thousand projects formerly run by English
898:
So, to the whole "flag burning" business. I understand your question but I feel that this particular area is irrelevant to this article as public burnings do not seem to be their forte, though I'm partial myself. Either suggest another venue for this discussion (proxies welcome) or e-mail me @
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There seems to be some dispute around the content of the article's lead section, namely whether it should contain a description of the group's political character or not. I think it would be absurd if the Knowledge (XXG) article for Siol nan Gaidheal, a very political group which is normally
646:
The article also makes a passing reference to the Calton Hill vigil. Granted this is seen through the things-I-have-heard-of filter, but I'd have thought if sng organised this, it would be their one activity that received the most media coverage and should get more attention in the article.
1390:
in the introduction. His opinion should be mentioned in the article perhaps, but not the introduction. It is worth remembering that Wilson's machinations propped up Thatcher's Tory government and he ripped out of Scottish nationalism the interesting elements (the radical socialists of the
718:
1. I am co-organiser of the Glencoe Rally where the picture was taken (Copyright issues regarding that photograph are pending) and it is organised by the Scottish Republican Socialist Movement and NOT Siol nan Gaidheal. This picture is misrepresentative and probably breaches copyright.
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May I also say that I did not lift anything from the 'History of the Scottish National Party' page. Most of the stuff came from the Siol nan Gaidheal site, specifically an article entitled 'History of our Movement'. Other stuff came from the sources cited in the article.
1395:, republican elements and the Gaelic nationalists), replacing it with pedestrian, Lowland Scots, capitalist, monarchist, Tartan Tory crap. So he had his own agenda as well. SĂol nan GĂĄidheal's Sinn FĂ©in-esque politics was apparently a frightening prospect for him.
1508:
said earlier: there is no good reason to use "proto-fascist" as a qualification; it seems that the only person calling them that was Gordon Wilson. And even if that was somehow a properly verified and valid observation, it should be qualified--and it's not. So
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I therefore believe that SnG are indeed a racist organisation, by merit of believing one racial group deserving of better treatment than another. I further believe that SnG admit this freely in their promotional literature, specifically their official website.
670:
A heated, but ultimately constructive, argument concerning this article is preserved below. The version to which you reverted it was biased to the point of being a communication from the organisation itself. Please understand that statements such as:
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The offending picture and references to "racism" have been removed. Altering this article was not meant as a partisan act or meant to be the opening salvo of flame war. Please, please consider point 2 above before another knee-jerk "RV vandalism".
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for example), now I don't know much about this organization but from the description in the article they don't sound particularly Ultranationalist to me. Radical Nationalists would perhaps be a better term, I mean these guys seem very similar to
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Scottish "ultra nationalism" and its relationship with mainstream nationalist politics is a genuinely interesting topic, which is worth documenting in the wikipedia. Perhaps a larger article on the topic as a whole would be more appropriate.
976:
I have amended this article to make it more neutral, taking into account the points made above. I have removed the 'disputed neutrality' banner although if you have any problems with the new article, please let me know. Thanks.
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Since you seem to be knowledgeable on this topic I suggest you devote your efforts to increasing the factual accuracy and overall quality of this article, rather than simply reverting it to a previous version and abandoning it.
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1 hatred, rivalry or bad feeling between races. 2 belief in the inherent superiority of a particular race or races over others, usually with the implication of a right to be dominant. 3 discriminatory treatment based on such a
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1353:, as described by that article, once Iâve finished this post. Anyway, I would invite the users who have been edit-warring over this content to make their arguments here, rather than in edit summaries, please.â
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I should be angry and defensive, but I'm not. It's most ingenious your post. I'm most impressed. (n.b. you don't see everything about the nine of diamonds project, but then you weren't meant to).
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748:"anyone seeing the drum beating, black banner waving , Colour Party in their Black Shirts and kilts couldnât fail to be impressed and old and young alike flocked to join the ever-swelling ranks"
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680:"anyone seeing the drum beating, black banner waving, Colour Party in their Black Shirts and kilts couldnât fail to be impressed and old and young alike flocked to join the ever-swelling ranks"
419:. I've certainly never felt "feelings of excitement and expectation" when the "kilted S.N.G. columns appeared", nor have I "flocked to join the ever-swelling ranks of Siol nan Gaidheal."
1282:
Moving on to the etymology, that's a no. A definite one. As a rule of thumb, such random similarities of surface forms are generally just that, random coincidences. SĂŹol has its root in
816:
I must, however, defend the use of material from another article. The history of the SNP article is well written and uncontested and using this material is a good way of avoiding bias.
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I am very confused as to why a discussion (and therefore a supposed consensus) has been established on the SNP page instead of this one. It's not legitimate to do that in my view.
1322:
I've removed the fascism label. If a SNP guy once calls a group fascists that doesn't qualify to label them in Knowledge (XXG)'s voice as such. And there seems to be a fair bit of
781:
I find it strange, as well as suspicious that a series of different IP addresses should want to refocus an article from a semi-neutral standpoint to an "anti-English" standpoint.
1264:
and is, perhaps, more easily understood by English speakers as to its true meaning, if I understand the article correctly. At the very least, it could be more concisely stated.
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The argument concerning the neutrality of the existing article is possibly a case in point. If people list them here then there wouldn't be problem and we could debate them.
1043:
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It is simply an intrusive English violation of our National Territory". The page concludes that "every English incomer at present is suspect, the good along with the bad".
1430:
It is very obvious what you are doing. I am no expert but I am not a fool. The party has oonly recently been described as proto fascists in the infobox, as you well know.
1103:
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3. The more recent version of the article does cite sources, or rather a source, s.n.g's own website. In particular a page entitled "Race, Ethnicity & Nationality".
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Is the lack of grĂ ves in Siol nan Gaidheal (as opposed to SĂŹol nan GĂ idheal) down to typographical probs or is this a deliberate non-use in the name, does anyone know?
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895:
The fact you compromised shows character. Fantastic. Thanks. This has been most fulfilling. If the Siol want to revert back to what was, then it is their business.
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5. I really have to question the worth of this article. For all the evidence presented (i.e. none) this group could simply consist of a few people and a website.
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992:
Why has a lengthy and informative article been reduced by someone to a mere paragraph? This is not in the least bit informative. What was the point in this?? --
114:
715:
Would the Korean (IP address lookup) Users currently defacing this article please desist as the defacements have no basis in fact, evidence or sources cited.
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If this is true it should be easy to verify. Just cite a specific poll and the organisation that carried it out, or a news outlet that published it results.
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the SNP's. There didn't seem to be any opposition to both articles sharing the same phrasing, but if you want to re-open the debate I won't oppose you. â
784:
Racist claims are VERY serious and must be backed up with hard, verifyable evidence. At best the citations were spurious and at times misrepresentative.
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become active, and note that they dote on certain SNP MSP's such as Roseanna Cunningham - whom they believe share their extremist Republican opinions.
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There has also been a questioning of the Calton Hill vigils for devolution. Again, very well known in Scotland, as were the mass marches organised by
223:
787:
Whether an organisation has two people or two thousand, it does not justify irrelevantly labelling them racist without the first shred of evidence.
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2. If said organisation maintains a website featuring an extensive article on the issue of race, then they become slightly more difficult to defend.
821:
Whether an organisation has two people or two thousand, it does not justify irrelevantly labelling them racist without the first shred of evidence.
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Gaidheal. I also admit that parts of it were taken from the site although the National Organiser of Siol was aware of this and granted approval.
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tag lightly. Large sections of the article still read like propaganda and/or make sweeping claims that could simply be fabricated. For instance:
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Finally, a personal question: As someone who considers allegations of racism extremely serious, why do you spend your free time burning flags?
771:
875:. Of course you would know all this as you are its "Chief of External Relations". (A word to the wise, most secret agents do not keep blogs.)
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I'm never going to admit something is racist when it's not, but you're clearly very bright. Your Intelligence and persistance impresses me.
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And there are reliable sources which say that SnG "spawned both Scottish Watch and Settler Watch", both of which could be mentioned here.
1231:
Please note that I do not speak any GĂ idhlig whatsoever and therefore cannot speak reasonably to the etymology of words within GĂ idhlig.
865:
In the spirit of constructiveness I have left any potentially inflammatory references to race out of the current version of the article.
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Ok, to begin with, I didn't write this article, I just tweaked some of the Gaelic. Generally, I agree that it could be written better.
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Dodgy IP addresses, badly written edits, irrelevant photographs... and all to justify an accusation of racism against the English.
442:
anyone starts wearing Black Shirts - which was the symbol of Nazism in the UK before WWII worn by followers of Sir Oswald Mosley.
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This article is very biased and doesn't cite any sources. In fact, I've lived in Scotland all my life and have never even heard of
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1242:, which is perhaps somewhat archaic. I took the liberty of looking it up in the OED, and found that it is thought to be from the
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558:"a whole new generation of young people enthusiastically committed themselves to the cause of radical Scottish Nationalism."
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799:
I'm sorry, but I believe the "anti english" article version to be poppycock and does a disservice to this whole website.
675:"Whenever the kilted S.N.G. columns appeared, a shiver of excitement and expectation spread among friends and foes alike."
388:
pro-Unionist and vote for Unionist political parties - historically at the ballot box they reject the SNP every time.
947:
Again, very easy to verify, just cite two different editorials from that newspaper stating the two different opinions.
617:
Again, very easy to verify, just cite two different editorials from that newspaper stating the two different opinions.
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shows that he has only ever altered this article. I think he is a member of SNG using this article for propaganda.
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I thought your lead was fine and would support its inclusion in the lead. I wouldn't worry about the reversion by
1249:(and the usual variety of spellings found in any archaic document, which needn't be repeated here), specifically
1006:
This page sounds rather more like a 'history' section on an organisation's website than an encyclopaedia entry.--
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Amending this as per the SNP talk page; "ultranationlist" seems to be the best compromise that's sourced â
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The change was half-badly written, half lifted from another article with an irrelevant photograph added.
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on Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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on Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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on Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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2. I have compared the two versions of the article. Are you seriously suggesting that phrases such as:
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are simply personal points of view rather than verifiable facts and fly in the face of wikipedia's
515:"Flocked" and "young and old" have no actual meaning, a number should be given as well as a source
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should be quoting the partisan opimions of the more or less nauseating Tartan Tory/Masonic-type
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Pure propaganda. How many young people committed themselves? And how do you measure enthusiasm?
547:"not one member of Siol nan Gaidheal was ever arrested by the police and charged with anything"
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are written from a neutral point of view and not simply statments by the organisation itself?
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This is an incredibly broad claim to make without any evidence of the size of sng membership.
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Whose country? Whose ancestors? Sng's supporters have actually lapsed into the first person.
511:"certainly young and old alike flocked to join the ever-swelling ranks of Siol nan Gaidheal"
345:
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939:
I again suggest that instead of leaving "fact" notices everywhere, that one will suffice.
743:"it is remarkable that this particular organisation was not destroyed by the British State"
688:"it is remarkable that this particular organisation was not destroyed by the British State"
1250:
964:
458:
453:." - well you have now. ;) There's a guy who claims to be Scottish who had never heard of
370:
Your probably right about this - the term is misleading, and I have altered the article.--
178:
943:"the Sun newspaper turned overnight from the Unionist to the Scottish Nationalist cause"
623:
And, in my opinion, the most damning evidence of this page being written as propaganda:
613:"the Sun newspaper turned overnight from the Unionist to the Scottish Nationalist cause"
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I will review the article and write something more professional as soon as possible.
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4. A large portion of the new article is, in fact, lifted from the existing article
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2. No relevant evidence has been cited for using this article to bash the Siol with
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seems a pretty strange word to use for this group. Ultranationalism usually means
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1. If an organisation has only two people it does not belong in an encyclopedia.
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602:"first time opinion polls showed more than 50% support for total independence"
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1253:. Perhaps a GĂ idhlig speaker could offer their opinion as to the etymology.
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I think he died years ago. Don't really have info, but seem to recall that.
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which were supported by three out of four of the major Scottish parties. --
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If this is actually true there'd be newspaper coverage that could be cited
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Still, I'm glad people are taking an interest in this neglected article.
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That is just a political diatribe that has no place on Knowledge (XXG).
774:. Are you suggesting this is an instance of "vandlism" and "defacement"
1016:
True. But there are third party sources which could be used to fix it.
1476:, he's a long-term sockpuppet user and frequent spammer of this page.
500:"...Siol nan Gaidheal was broken up by the force of the British State"
955:- I remember this well, but it was partly a ploy to undermine Labour.
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involved in using the label. For further discussion see my comments
846:
On their page entitled "Demography: The White Flighter Phenomenon",
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1. If the picture is irrelivant it should, of course, be removed.
760:
country was in mourning for its lost sovereignty and nationhood."
449:"I've lived in Scotland all my life and have never even heard of
486:"what opponents disparagingly labelled "Jacobite Romanticism" "
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Who said this and when? (also shouldn't it be "Anglicising")
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has reverted it several times without explaination and his
636:"the determination of our Celtic-Gaelic warrior ancestors"
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Knowledge (XXG):WikiProject Politics of the United Kingdom
631:"the explanation being that our country was in mourning"
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Low-importance Politics of the United Kingdom articles
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361:, and nobody has ever called them Ultranationalist.--
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Start-Class Politics of the United Kingdom articles
1234:But as a native English speaker, I immediately saw
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1561:, I'd be fine with it being reduced to "fascist".
823:" I agree entirely with this statement. However:
522:"what was known as "The Englishing of Scotland" "
1536:, please be more careful with throwing the term
869:group which uses its namesake as a calling card
1592:You are correct that this article's descriptor
1256:However, I would certainly argue strongly that
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1486:12:41, 10 May 2018 (UTC)
1420:23:33, 10 May 2018 (UTC)
986:15:16, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
968:21:14, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
930:20:18, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
909:21:47, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
807:19:11, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
730:12:23, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
594:be verified but aren't:
580:"most incredible of all"
1504:I'm picking up on what
1500:"Proto-fascist", again.
1460:01:24, 8 May 2018 (UTC)
196:Scotland-related topics
476:{ {totally disputed} }
411:Neutral Point of View?
28:This article is rated
1594:doesn't have to match
1517:just doesn't cut it.
105:organization articles
32:on Knowledge (XXG)'s
1426:edit warring by liar
1302:Socialist vs Fascist
836:Chambers Dictionary
584:A matter of opinion.
474:I haven't added the
455:Jock Tamson's Bairns
187:WikiProject Scotland
1540:around. Thank you.
839:defines racism as:
664:User:Martin Shipway
427:contibution history
423:User:Martin Shipway
1227:Lack of etymology?
340:Ultranationalists?
34:content assessment
1513:, I'm sorry, but
451:Siol nan Gaidheal
417:Siol nan Gaidheal
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1515:"it's sourced"
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539:peacock terms
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96:Organizations
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87:Organizations
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59:Organizations
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1448:
1445:Lead section
1432:177.72.1.102
1429:
1384:
1371:
1358:
1348:
1305:
1261:
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1255:
1246:
1239:
1238:and thought
1235:
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1127:
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994:195.93.21.42
990:
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867:
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854:flighters".
852:
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655:IslaySolomon
652:
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583:
579:
573:By how many?
572:
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537:Meaningless
536:
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499:
491:Weasel Words
489:
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434:IslaySolomon
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80:
40:WikiProjects
1538:"vandalism"
1511:User:Czello
1474:ApolloCarmb
1350:anglophobia
1339:Thank you,
1163:free images
1104:free images
1044:free images
906:Jarvisbaird
804:Jarvisbaird
727:Jarvisbaird
696:principle.
30:Start-class
1616:Categories
1307:fascitst.
965:MacRusgail
459:MacRusgail
354:these guys
1345:WP:BOLDly
1309:Akerbeltz
1288:Akerbeltz
1214:Akerbeltz
590:Two that
363:Hibernian
359:Sinn Fein
344:The term
1557:As I've
1478:Brough87
1468:Zcbeaton
1452:Zcbeaton
1412:Brough87
1393:79 Group
1355:Odysseus
1324:WP:SYNTH
983:Shippers
927:Shippers
703:Thanks.
372:Shippers
350:Neo-Nazi
205:Scotland
192:Scotland
148:Scotland
1169:WPÂ refs
1157:scholar
1110:WPÂ refs
1098:scholar
1050:WPÂ refs
1038:scholar
953:Comment
732:Jarvis
321:on the
232:on the
123:on the
1600:Czello
1580:Alssa1
1567:Czello
1542:Drmies
1519:Drmies
1506:zzuuzz
1341:Zzuuzz
1332:zzuuzz
1251:Picard
1199:(Talk)
1141:Google
1082:Google
1022:Google
842:belief
666:et al.
36:scale.
1330:. --
1258:scion
1240:scion
1208:Typo?
1184:JSTOR
1145:books
1125:JSTOR
1086:books
1065:JSTOR
1026:books
592:could
1584:talk
1546:talk
1532:And
1523:talk
1482:talk
1456:talk
1436:talk
1416:talk
1401:talk
1328:here
1313:talk
1292:talk
1270:talk
1262:siol
1247:cion
1236:siol
1218:talk
1177:FENS
1151:news
1118:FENS
1092:news
1058:FENS
1032:news
1002:Tone
694:NPOV
684:and
407:-CM
194:and
1191:TWL
1132:TWL
1072:TWL
758:our
313:Low
224:Low
115:Low
1618::
1586:)
1548:)
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1216:(
1187:·
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1173:·
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1107:·
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1084:(
1068:·
1062:·
1054:·
1047:·
1041:·
1035:·
1029:·
1024:(
819:"
325:.
236:.
127:.
42::
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