987:″==Demographics section tagged to initiate discussion== Source 4, a webpage, is used pervasively, as the near single source in this section and for several additional subsections and paragraphs in History. This is problematic in two ways, first, as a Danish language source (acceptable, but see main point), and second, as a webpage providing substantial historic and demographic information without (a) clear presentation of content authorship/curatorship and scholarly credentials, and (b) without clear attribution/direct sourcing of the purported factual information presented. (E.g., the long list of population data presented in simple stacked text format does not indicate its original governmental or other source.)
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1092:(misses the forest for the trees). About the language, I noted "Danish language source (acceptable". The point regarding the language is simply to say, that if the original editor—whose job it is to provide verifiable reliable, scholarly sourcing for his information, not based on trust of the editor/author—does not do this work, then language serves as a further
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Here, it seems, we ask readers to trust us, and we ourselves are likewise overly trusting, and so unscholarly, in our selection of sources—conveying that it is better to say something, even if we cannot be sure of its accuracy, than to leave a subject unaddressed for inability to track information to
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No, the historical demographic data are not going to be possible to get through online sources, my guess is that the local historians in Skagen built it based on church books. One would have to visit the society to find out with certainty. So it probably stands and falls with the quesiton of whether
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There's a new "Today" section which has a few issues in it: the first paragraph is unsourced, the dates are of an inconsistent format and some of the language is unencyclopaedic, "as celebrities conquer Skagen" conquer? Other parts need re-writing: "As in other outskirts of
Denmark" is not good. I'm
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I think it is quite unreasonable to expect
English language sources for demograpics of locations in non-English speaking countries. But yes, the point about using governmental data by preference is well taken. I have not contributed to this article in a major way, but being a Danish speaker I will
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Taken together, these two aspects make it difficult, if not impossible, to verify the accuracy of the cited data. Hence, as this cited websource approaches the question of the veracity and verifiability of its data in the manner of "Just trust us," this standard is transferred to
Knowledge in its
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Skagen is not even one of the major cities in
Denmark. There is absolutely no chance that there's going to be English language sources for local things like population. It's not even a requirement that sources must be in English anyway! Can we ever be 100% sure of accuracy anyway? We're here to
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source), and not this webpage. Hence, I would argue, at this stage, such parts of the article are "student draft" pieces of work, half completed (finding the first research hint regarding reliable information, but not taking the critical further step of finding and sourcing the actual reliable,
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But I do wish that individuals who write, ostensibly at an encyclopedia, would understand standards generally associated with encyclopedic writing. With regard to the population data, I would argue that we, as an encyclopedia, would wish to cite the governmental or other source of the data (a
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Hello dpv. Sometimes the editor misedits, which is why editors and writers ought to communicate amicably. I'm all for it. You introduced an error, which I fixed. No harm done but I imagine interested readers were pretty confused for a while. Tastris is the unknown word. You can look up
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Yeah, just for the record I am not an important policy influence in any way. I have no particular authority or importance. I think the source should be considered reliable until proven otherwise - but if you think its reliability requires further discussion then I suggest the
1173:. Key distinction. Self-published, blog-like information of any type is disallowed at WP, and I would argue (i) that unreliable and unverifiable apply to any web-sourced population data that is not governmental or similarly solid, or that appears at a site,
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I'd rather
English, but I noticed Ipigott had been using harbor so I figured he was using American English, which I generally tend to use I must admit, given that Americans form the majority on here and it is an American website. Ian any preference?♦
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I think so: it makes more sense to be able to link from a specialist section, rather than have to hunt back up the page. Frederikshavn seems to be linked three or four times, so may be worth a look, but I think you've caught most of them. -
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In short, this and other reputable online, open encyclopedias (absent expert authors as at EB) are "just trust us" venues to the extent that they lack reliable, verifiable sourcing worthy of respect, and this very often is the case at
607:"Skagen's economy has been based on its fishing industry which continues to prosper today, thanks to its fishing harbour": I think it's probably "thanks to" fishermen and market conditions, but helped or facilitated by the harbour.
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You should go for consistency in whether you have full biblio and the shortened refs which link down to them, or whether you have the full book details in the refs section (I think there are seven books listed in the
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Thanks, I'll try to reduce this today. Is it OK though if we also keep the names linked in the Skagen painters section as I think it's more convenient to link them than not. I've delinked most of the others though.♦
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489:"In 1644, Swedish troops occupied the town during the Torstenson War." I think we need a bit more here in the way of context: why, for how long, etc. not too much, but just a line or so extra.
1192:; moreover, the citing of sources that cannot be seen as an ultimate reputable origin of information is just a dodge (hiding the "just trust us" message one further layer deeper). Le Prof
407:) 08:33, 6 November 2013 (UTC) I'll pick this one up; should have some solid comments in a day or so, but one thing that springs to the eye is that there is some overlinking here. -
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Ah, ok that makes more sense. Except of Course Jimmy Wales doesnt have any authority on these matters either, and is unlikely to take any interest in it.m RSN is the way to go.
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I do not expect you to change this, or even allow the tag to stand (because this manner of sourcing information is so widespread in this article, and at WP in general).
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The website by the way belongs to the Skagen historical society. I don't know why that wouldn't be considered a reliable source for historical demography of Skagen.
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also not sure of the wisdom of splitting it away from the 20th century: the previous section of "20th century-present" was fine, as "Today" is slightly misleading.
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And he disagrees with you anyway, and considers it to be a reliable source for population, not that he actually makes policy decisions around here. Let it rest.♦
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972:. Did a first pass on this, based on an online pronunciation service in Europe, with good track record for Danish names. See edit from today. Le Prof
642:"However" isn't needed; this sentence also works backwards: starts off with "today", and then works back to the 1960s – could do with a bit of a tweak.
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Was trying to keep to
British English. The irritating automatic spell checker on IE probably changed harbour to harbor (as it is trying to do now!)--
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What version of
English is this? Color and jeweler versus centre and harbour: I don't mind which version, but it needs consistency throughout
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The town (Skagen) no longer forms its own municipality (kommune) but merged in
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I have pinged and important policy influence at WP, and asked him to look in to the general argument. Let's see if he responds.
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It would be helpful for a pronunciation of the name to appear, which is, I understand, counterintuitive to
Americans.
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as the pronounciation is identical. Perhaps someone could look into the etymology of the name Skagen; especially the
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The following
Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
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Reads pretty well, with only a little polishing needed. Review on hold until the above is sorted. Cheers -
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What is the literal transiation of "Skaw"? I ask because that's the name of the most northerly village in
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I cannot offer any meanings of the names Skagen or Skaw, but the Danish word for a person from Skagen, a
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a local historical society is considered a reliable source for local history. I think it should be.
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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I and I believe the IP were referring to Jimmy Wales, who he left a post about this to.♦
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where other editors will be able to comment on whether they consider it reliable or not.
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With regard to the "well taken" point: any luck with the better sourcing of this,
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try to find the governmental source on which the data is presumably based.
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Sorry it's been a bit of a slow start, but a few points to think on:
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Please see the discussion about using official municipality names at
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is it necessary to hold to high sourcing standards from the start.
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re-use of the information so pervasively, and without checking.
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I think publishing years are probably better than specific days.
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barrier to any that would try to verify or provide sourcing.
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In re: that, "We're here to report what has been reported"…
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all the more, in articles based on foreign language sources
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its true reliable origin. Cheers, bonne chance. Le Prof.
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Double image at the top - bad sandwiching of the text here.
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All good. Passes all the criteria as currently listed at
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Done to the end of the painters: more to follow soon. -
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FNs21 and 26: you need to finish off the page ranges.
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Capitalisation needs sorting out on one or two books.
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No such thing as a Frederikshavn (2007-) municipality
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256:(literally " Skagen dweller") is sometimes spelled
45:. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can
1171:yes, but only from reliable, verifiable sources
1315:Participate in the deletion discussion at the
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302:on Knowledge. Best wishes, keep on editing.
262:`Swedish skägg (pronounced sheg), "beard".´
236:. I guess it's the same name, coming from
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1090:ikke kan få øje på skoven for bare træer
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828:Not quite: FN 15 is still wrong. -
240:or some other scandic language? --
92:It is of interest to the following
1348:Geography and places good articles
1167:Issue is the sourcing of the data.
33:Geography and places good articles
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567:There's a lot of white space here
264:suggestion seems far-fetched. --
41:. If you can improve it further,
1139:report what has been reported.♦
1003:verifiable information itself).
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927:. Well done to all concerned. -
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901:03:07, 10 November 2013 (UTC)
864:11:17, 10 November 2013 (UTC)
838:08:47, 10 November 2013 (UTC)
820:03:07, 10 November 2013 (UTC)
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169:Knowledge:WikiProject Denmark
163:and see a list of open tasks.
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1240:Reliable Sources Noticeboard
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717:Refs & Bibliography
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57:: November 10, 2013. (
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858:
851:
844:Now ref 13,
806:
770:
735:
716:
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676:
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366:Instructions
296:
278:
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257:
253:
223:
215:
190:
150:
94:WikiProjects
52:
43:please do so
31:
30:
26:
1259:Dr. Blofeld
1226:Dr. Blofeld
1157:Dr. Blofeld
1143:Dr. Blofeld
1000:WP:reliable
859:Dr. Blofeld
470:Dr. Blofeld
426:Dr. Blofeld
380:transcluded
1337:Categories
333:Authorship
319:GA toolbox
37:under the
1104:Le Prof
893:Rosiestep
812:Rosiestep
776:Rosiestep
741:Rosiestep
701:Rosiestep
626:Rosiestep
586:Rosiestep
562:Geography
392:Reviewer:
356:Templates
347:Reviewing
312:GA Review
266:Hestemand
234:Shetlands
1094:post hoc
929:SchroCat
910:SchroCat
830:SchroCat
512:SchroCat
439:SchroCat
409:SchroCat
405:contribs
395:SchroCat
361:Criteria
258:"skawbo"
254:"skagbo"
232:in the
226:Scotland
84:GA-class
47:reassess
1276:snunɐɯ·
1272:·maunus
1248:snunɐɯ·
1244:·maunus
1153:Again,
1124:snunɐɯ·
1120:·maunus
1073:snunɐɯ·
1069:·maunus
1031:snunɐɯ·
1027:·maunus
661:Ipigott
602:Economy
546:Ipigott
497:Ipigott
193:on the
166:Denmark
157:Denmark
113:Denmark
1181:Maunus
1046:Maunus
793:refs).
300:Cimbri
90:scale.
54:Review
27:Skagen
382:from
285:SFDan
283:. --
1325:talk
1212:talk
1198:talk
1110:talk
1056:talk
1013:talk
978:talk
969:Done
953:talk
933:talk
914:talk
897:talk
888:Done
852:Done
834:talk
816:talk
807:Done
780:talk
771:Done
745:talk
736:Done
705:talk
696:Done
665:talk
656:Done
630:talk
621:Done
590:talk
581:Done
550:talk
541:Done
516:talk
501:talk
443:talk
413:talk
399:talk
304:Dave
246:Talk
238:norn
230:Skaw
1319:. —
1165:).
1050:?
925:GAN
185:Mid
49:it.
1339::
1327:)
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1189:WP
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96::
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