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2198:. No action was taken against me and you were warned as well. Your behaviour has frankly been well before par of that expected of an admin. Once again I am not asking for the article to be changed to FC, you have muddied the water for yourself and frankly I want an apology. My argument is a clear one that in this case no disambiguation is required in anyway and common name clearly indicates that
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1188:, because i failed to back up the evidence of my correct claims. You made a statement which was entirely false and have provided no evidence to back it up. Therefore yes you were evasive and you did lie. Even after you were called out on your lies you have failed to withdraw the claim against me. So sorry but its you who showed bad faith not me.
1813:(aka St Mirin), to which it redirects. A sporting club should not displace the entity after which it is named, so a disambiguator is added. The std disambiguator for football clubs in Britain is "F.C.", and a change would affect hundreds of articles. If you wanted to make such as widespread change, it would require an
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But here's the clincher. The choice between "St" and "St." is unrelated to any choice between "FC", "F.C.", and no suffix. If you want to pursue that idea, then my proposal above is for this discussion to be closed with a decision between "St" and "St." ... and that you or any other should be free
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Similar issues apply to many of the hundreds of other football clubs in the UK which use the "F.C" suffix. You have offered no evidence that St Mirren FC is more likely to be named without the FC than say Dundee United FC or Bolton
Wanderers FC. Unless you can demonstrate that St Mirren F.C. is an
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I have changed the club's record victory back to the long accepted 15-0 v
Glasgow University, Scottish Cup, 1960 as listed by sources eg. Soccerbase. A couple of years back someone replaced this with a 16-0 win over Port Glasgow OBU in the Renfrewshire Cup. While this is correct, it was a youth team
1985:
This case has also been complicated by the late addition of a notion to change "F.C." to "FC". Discussion has stalled for 5 days, so may I suggest to the closer that this discussion could be closed on whatever the outcome of the initial proposal to remove the dot from "St.", without prejudice to any
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Both changes would break the convention that associated football clubs in the UK are named "Foo F.C" (or in some cases "Foo A.F.C."). I have not checked whether that convention is documented as a formal guideline, but is easily demonstrable in practice, with only a tiny number of exceptions. This
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As I understood it at the time the problem was with red tape. When signing a player on load you need to get permission from the parent FA, in
Ronaldinho's case this was the Brazilian FA, unfortunately for saints when they tried to contact the Brazilian FA to get clearance they were told it was a
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In the meantime, your argument seems to be that this article's title should use "St." with a dot contrary to the MoS and to common usage because there is an unrelated issue whose fix you think would be pointless. That's all a bit silly. We can fix the "st." issue now, regardless of the rest.
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I disagree that what I've said is untrue, but let's not delve into that as I do agree that the majority will just write 'St' so I understand why a move has been suggested but shouldn't we at least be consistent? The most widely used spelling will probably always be 'St Mirren' so by applying
507:). Whilst one of the arguments maintained by opposition was that this may cause consistency issues in other articles in this topic, there is sufficient clarity here that assessments may be made on an individual case-by-case basis as one size does not necessarily fit all at all times.
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Nothing misleading. It is an undocumented convention, demonstrable in usage. I used the word "convention" rather than "policy" or "guideline". I did not claim that it was a convention of some set of football clubs; it is a wider convention across all topics, including towns such as
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is proven. As you've said to me show me your evidence to back up your lies. As for I dont like it thats just you trying to hide the fact you are being evasive. If you can prove common name applies to a ., then please go ahead. However done make false statements. The . is good
2056:, you seem to be deliberatly missing my point. I have not suggested "F.C." to "FC". So dont say I'm muddying the watters. What I am saying is that clearly per the evidence above that your common name argument is false. The common name per evidence provided is
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Stevie, why should very different things be treated in the same way? That's like saying that a cow should be cooked in the same way as a lettuce. The comparison with NATO is misplaced, because it is not just an initialism, it is an acronym. "F.C." is not an
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Note: this request only asked with the question asked about removing the dot from "St.", which is what participants have commented on, so the closure limits focus to that question without prejudice to any other proposals which may be made in a separate RM or
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So your original post was certainly misleading then. Common name really doesnt apply to a . in my opinion. Your original post read like we had a naming convention stating Saint should be abbreviated to St rather than St. In this case I am definitly
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You now seem to be trying to find flaws in my comments as if you were an advocate conducting a cross-examination, rather than a fellow en.wp editor trying to reach a consensus. Your latest statement, with its accusation of "lies" is a direct
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who said that if we were going by standard naming policy the dots should be removed from FC, not me. Frankly you should be ashamed at badgering on at me about muddying the waters and removing the dot. My proposal was clearly to move page to
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to enact consensus. Despite the large amount of text generated during this RM discussion, 9 editors supported the move proposal (including the proposer) and 2 editors opposed it. The principal basis for the consensus to move were per
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is not the place to change a convention which applies to so many hundreds articles (an RFC would be needed for that), and you offered no reason to treat St Mirren as an exception to the convention. Two reasons why that is the case:
1512:. What I'm trying to say is that we should either consistently keep the full stops or remove them. I don't see much point in changing every football team with 'F.C.' so why should we change 'St. Mirren F.C.' to 'St Mirren F.C.'
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195,000 results. Its pretty overwhelming evidence that if common name is being applied as a policy then the wrong name is being suggested. In addition the St. implies a shortened name, ST does not. ST is a shortened version of
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for why). b) They do not take account of the cases where the "F.C." is unused because it is implicit in the context (such as a an article solely about that days football results) or because it has been used earlier in the
1655:, both now and when I first started editing. I understand the difference between an abbreviation and an acronym/initialism but I don't think you've understood me properly. What I'm saying is that we be consistent, as per
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I have NEVER seen St. Mirren without the full stop in my life, except in cases of laziness. Perhaps ask
Stewart Gilmour rather than the right-wing fascism that people on here display... P.S. I support their derby rivals
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Knowledge (XXG) does not necessarily use the subject's "official" name as an article title; it generally prefers to use the name that is most frequently used to refer to the subject in
English-language reliable
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In any case, the unqualified name "St Mirren" and "St. Mirren" are ambiguous: they are an abbreviation of "Saint Mirren", which is one of the spelling variants of the saint whose article is entitled
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You have repeatedly accused me of muddying the waters, both here and on my page and specifically over the F.C, or FC debacle. So please don't blame others. I have no interest in that whatsoever.
1883:, then the common name policy can be discounted as an argument. There is an overwhelming difference in page targets. I looked at page hits in previous stats so lets look at Google news as well.
1508:, we should be removing the 'F.C.' as well. I know you'll probably think I'm just being pedantic but anywhere that I've seen 'F.C.' used at the end of a football clubs name it's just 'FC' eg-
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So you are threatening to block a user who oposes your view when involved. Sorry but you started this by attacking me. Secondly saying you lied is not a personal attack. You did lie. You said
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The convention does not seem to be documented, but it is longstanding practice on.wp not to use the dot in "St.", as reflected for example in the names of the other
Scottish football clubs. --
2009:, whereas this is a discussion around a contraction, therefore any conclusions drawn from this and the other RMs noted above cannot inform any discussion on future F.C. / FC discussions.
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BS, there is a clear naming convention to apply the "F.C." to articles on football clubs. If you want to change such a widespread convention, that needs a broad consensus through an RFC.
800:. Plus the club's official website actually uses Saint Mirren as well, so you could argue that rather than St Mirren. Plus can you link to the naming convention you are referring to.
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Dots are rarely used in the St abbreviation. The F.C. debate is another matter, and as it affects thousands of other articles, this is not an appropriate place to discuss it.
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you get double at 156,000,000. This will be repeated across the majority of football clubs. Therefore common name would clearly indicate that the correct target would be
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Does common name apply to a . Please provide the evidence it does. Also St. Mirren use the . in their logo, so i would argue thats what they officially call themselves.
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as these are clearly terms you do not fully understand if you are applying them to a free and open discussion to which all could input such as the one above. Thanks.
1819:
So, the question for this discussion remains a choice between "St. Mirren F.C." and "St Mirren F.C." ... and the form without the full stop is supported by both the
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did not include the dot and that this aligns to standard UK abbreviation format I would suggest you haven't been looking that hard. I would also suggest you look at
2032:- The club's website uses St without the dot, although the club badge still uses dot. (The FC vs F.C. argument is completely separate and just muddies the waters.).
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I concur with the above and would also observe that the F.C. / FC discussion is in fact a completely different point since that is a discussion around around an
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First of all your opening statement mentioned nothing about commonname, so yes it was very misleading. You've also maid very incorrect statements such as
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match played at the training ground in a minor local competition, and misleading to list as a first team record unless reliable sources decide to do so.
503:(sources and links listed refer to St Mirren without the dots, including the team's own website), and as per English language convention (also found in
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The Google searches which you offer above are flawed, because a) they are general searches, rather than of reliable sources such as news or books (see
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1663:). I understand this would require moving the vast majority of football club articles and I can't see the point in that but we should be consistent.
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1760:. If you move to ST Mirren then every football club would need moved to their name minus FC. That would be a massive precedent. For instance take
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1659:. We should either use the full stop, and leave as is, or we remove all the full stops (as is the case with some other acronyms on wikipedia eg-
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I disagree that any form of RFC is needed. I think you are just discounting without contrary evidence any evidence I provide. What entity would
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gives no special weight to "the people who use the clubs common name most". What matters is the overall balance of usage in reliable sources.
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Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a
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public holiday in Brazil and as such no-one was available, that was on the deadline day and so scuppered the deal. Thats from memory,
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1109:, so I will not discuss any further with you. If you persist with such a personalised approach, I will consider seeking sanctions. --
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I looked for "I looked for "St. C" on the first 7 search pages of result listings (70 hits), and found zero uses of "St." with a dot.
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1612:"in standard British and Australian usage no stop is used if the abbreviation ends in the last letter of the unabbreviated form "
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955:?. I have provided evidence from the club's own websites and -- crucially -- from reliable sources. You offer only assertion.
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Buddie = Body. Just the way that the word body in the past sounded in a scots accent. Should be something in the
Paisley page.
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Almost half of the page is dedicated to ticket prices for the current season. I say it should be removed as it is advertising.
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I moved the article back to the original page after realising it was re-directed by an anonymous user with no reason given. -
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redirects to the football club, which it should not do. The club is named in honour of the saint, not the other way round. --
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Have a look at the club's logo on the website though as It clearly says St. Mirren
Football Club, as does the logo we use on
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2076:, which is a different name. Frankly if a disambig was needed then I could see your point, however it is not in this case.
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clearly indicates we should use common name and no disambiguation is required in this case. We have no other article named
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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You have already been asked to stop the personal abuse and discuss substance, but instead you repeat the abuse. Enough. --
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I have provided evidence of common usage, and of usage by the club itself. That is what matters in
Knowledge (XXG) policy.
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If you want to argue the widespread use of "F.C." should be changed, then go and start the RFC. It might be a good idea.
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1208:. That's not an attack -- the basis of policy-based consensus forming is that editors offers arguments based in policy.
1142:. It is not reflected in the names of other Scottish football clubs. You have yet to withdraw your claim or back it up.
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BS, it wasn't me who accused you of muddying the waters -- that was the IP above. I agree with the IP, and also with
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1418:. Can't see many instances of the full stop being used and it certainly isn't used by the club. Also support per
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Two alternative proposals were presented above. One was to change "F.C." to "FC"; the other is to use neither.
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I did not "attack" you. You called me a "evasive" and a "liar", which is a personal attack and allegation of
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as 'St.' implies the word has been shortened whereas 'St' implies that it hasn't. The club website address (
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says, is that we be consistent and either keep the full stops or remove them all i.e. from 'F.C.' as well.
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2140:. To move these pages to an ambiguous title, you would need to demonstrate that the football club is the
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listed call them St Mirren, including the team's own website. Therefore, this shows that St Mirren is the
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The policy and evidential issues in this case are identical, although the debate here became more heated.
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call them. Reliable sources seem to call them "St Mirren" not "St. Mirren", so I believe we should too.
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on
Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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on Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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1488:"St Mirren" is still the more commonly used, and the latter part of your first sentence is not true. —
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And i stand firmly by those words. You showed bad faith against me when saying i was showing signs of
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You have offered no evidence in support of any other names, and so as noted, your comments are just
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are the only SPFL clubs with Saint in their name and both use the . You've also requested a move to
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exceptional case, then what you are seeing is a change to the convention -- and that needs an RFC.
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you or any other should be free to open a new RM to choose between "FC", "F.C.", and no suffix.
1803:. A disambiguator is needed here, and "F.C." is the std disambiguator for articles such as this.
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729:– to remove the dot from "St." per wikipedia naming convention and per the club's own website
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Well given that the lengthy discussion included a number of observations confirming that the
2313:, it's v v v simple. If you don't want to muddy the waters, then separate the two issues. --
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908:. Please tell me the precedent of Scottish clubs that done use St., as I'm failing to see it.
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which outlines clearly the conventions around British use of full stops in abbreviations.
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BS, it would be very helpful if you would try for once to follow wikipedia policy and
1776:. I am against a move however if a move does happen, then logically it can only be to
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So out of six only 2 is named without the St. So please BrownHairedGirl show me where
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The discussion has been closed, and the result will be found in the closer's comment.
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Been deleted for some reason. If someone could upload one ASAP that would be great.
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Also can you explain why are you preempting the admins closure by creating redirects
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Why are they called "The Buddies"? Could someone cover this in the History section?
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1961:. Two similar nominations which I made on the same day have been closed as "move":
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Those sources overwhelmingly abbreviate the word "Saint", as does the club itself:
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Is the reasoning behind Ronaldinho's rejection correct. I've heard passport issues
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Are you really a Scot? Using a dot is the American way. Same with Mr, Mrs, etc. —
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Images from the recent game against Motherwell and others are available on flickr
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in the championship. Outside the SPFL in Junior football there is another four,
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a totally separate page target. Clearly evidence provided would indicate that
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2376:: "For names of towns, churches, etc, abbreviate St (no point) eg St Mirren"
2272:, then why not separate the suffix from the removal of the dot from "St."? --
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I appreciate what you're saying in point 1. For point 2 all I'm saying, like
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as reflected for example in the names of the other Scottish football clubs.
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as reflected for example in the names of the other Scottish football clubs
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as reflected for example in the names of the other Scottish football clubs
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if you remove the full stops to make FC. So actually if you are going on
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If you have no policy and no evidence, then there is nothing left but
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are the only SPFL clubs with Saint in their name and both use the .
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1470:), the people who use the clubs common name most, also use 'St.'
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Without some evidence to support your claim, your oppose is just
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to open a new RM to choose between "FC", "F.C.", and no suffix.
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uses "St Mirren" in its site header and in every usage I found.
1780:. I feel the whole argument is slightly flawed from the start.
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is the correct title. The article does not require FC or F.C.
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per the rational provided by Super Nintendo Chalmers above.
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For the policy on when to use full stops and when not, see
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If you bothered to actually read you will see that it was
1458:) supports this and the St. Mirren club shop uses 'St.' (
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English language convention. Note the example chosen in
2112:. You have been asked before and warned before; enough.
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Not seeing the common name argument at all. If this was
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It was proposed in this section that multiple pages be
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Seriously? Are you really called Flim Fan. Ridiculous.
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Uploaded badge is incorrect - text font is different
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That way each proposal can be discussed separately.
1299:, then you may have a point. However this is St. v St
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1922:redirects to the saint whose name is also spelt as
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no difference if . removed to become St Mirren F.C.
1439:as this seems to be the most widely-used spelling.
489:. No further edits should be made to this section.
1817:. So that's outside the scope of this discussion.
2270:you are genuinely not trying to muddy the waters
2156:you are genuinely not trying to muddy the waters
763:and its subcats should be speedily renamed per
2250:, who also notes that the issues are separate.
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475:The following is a closed discussion of a
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1381:We don't use official names, we use what
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2257:what I wrote. My proposal above is that
1653:WP:Manual of Style#Full_stops_and_spaces
1617:"F.C." is not an abbreviation. It is an
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1545:WP:Manual of Style#Full_stops_and_spaces
364:Just wondering why, since the full-stop
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2265:your preference to remove any suffix.
2064:. I see no need for an RFC in any way.
1986:subsequent discussion on FC vs F.C.? --
1768:you only get 73,300,000 but search for
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945:What is your basis for claiming that
847:http://www.stcuthbertwanderers.co.uk/
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1756:then it actually should be moved to
675:St. Mirren F.C. in European football
494:The result of the move request was:
265:Knowledge (XXG):WikiProject Scotland
241:This article is within the scope of
132:Knowledge (XXG):WikiProject Football
112:This article is within the scope of
1875:. Therefore if you are discounting
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49:It is of interest to the following
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759:: If these pages are moved, then
702:Template:St. Mirren F.C. managers
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2553:Mid-importance football articles
2408:The discussion above is closed.
1460:http://www.stmirrendirect.co.uk/
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285:This article has been rated as
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2588:All WikiProject Scotland pages
1959:Note to closer, and suggestion
897:. As for other Scottish clubs
720:Template:St. Mirren F.C. squad
666:2015–16 St. Mirren F.C. season
657:2014–15 St. Mirren F.C. season
648:2013–14 St. Mirren F.C. season
639:2012–13 St. Mirren F.C. season
630:2011–12 St. Mirren F.C. season
621:2010–11 St. Mirren F.C. season
612:2009–10 St. Mirren F.C. season
603:2008–09 St. Mirren F.C. season
594:2007–08 St. Mirren F.C. season
585:2005–06 St. Mirren F.C. season
468:Requested move 20 January 2016
368:be part of the contraction. -
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2578:Start-Class Scotland articles
2573:WikiProject Football articles
2548:Start-Class football articles
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1893:St Mirren has 171,000 results
1748:879,000 results and there is
942:and lots of Scottish schools.
794:Comment leaning to don't move
724:Template:St Mirren F.C. squad
670:2015–16 St Mirren F.C. season
661:2014–15 St Mirren F.C. season
652:2013–14 St Mirren F.C. season
643:2012–13 St Mirren F.C. season
634:2011–12 St Mirren F.C. season
625:2010–11 St Mirren F.C. season
616:2009–10 St Mirren F.C. season
607:2008–09 St Mirren F.C. season
598:2007–08 St Mirren F.C. season
589:2005–06 St Mirren F.C. season
528:10:03, 16 February 2016 (UTC)
438:13:44, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
383:21:50, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
373:21:46, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
350:13:32, 16 December 2008 (UTC)
268:Template:WikiProject Scotland
259:and see a list of open tasks.
174:This article is supported by
135:Template:WikiProject Football
126:and see a list of open tasks.
2417:The name change (my opinion)
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2365:17:47, 8 February 2016 (UTC)
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2306:18:54, 7 February 2016 (UTC)
2290:18:26, 7 February 2016 (UTC)
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2184:23:53, 6 February 2016 (UTC)
2104:22:46, 6 February 2016 (UTC)
2088:22:43, 6 February 2016 (UTC)
2072:and the club is named after
2042:05:52, 6 February 2016 (UTC)
2019:08:18, 5 February 2016 (UTC)
1948:02:26, 30 January 2016 (UTC)
1912:21:53, 29 January 2016 (UTC)
1887:116,000 results & again
1845:00:00, 29 January 2016 (UTC)
1792:22:17, 28 January 2016 (UTC)
1734:Alternative target suggested
1703:12:01, 29 January 2016 (UTC)
1673:00:06, 29 January 2016 (UTC)
1639:23:41, 28 January 2016 (UTC)
1589:21:46, 28 January 2016 (UTC)
1565:21:32, 28 January 2016 (UTC)
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1395:21:24, 24 January 2016 (UTC)
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881:19:05, 23 January 2016 (UTC)
812:16:31, 23 January 2016 (UTC)
785:20:44, 20 January 2016 (UTC)
751:20:44, 20 January 2016 (UTC)
412:19:57, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
2518:21:06, 19 August 2023 (UTC)
1809:is the abbreviated form of
1456:http://www.saintmirren.net/
1023:St. Cuthbert Wanderers F.C.
906:St. Cuthbert Wanderers F.C.
853:183 hits for "Saint Mirren"
731:http://www.saintmirren.net/
107:Association football portal
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2499:21:28, 22 April 2023 (UTC)
2066:Knowledge (XXG):Commonname
1963:St Cuthbert Wanderers F.C.
291:project's importance scale
158:project's importance scale
328:05:51, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
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2410:Please do not modify it.
2374:The Guardian style guide
2223:User:Stevie fae Scotland
1738:User:Stevie fae Scotland
857:360 hits for "St Mirren"
761:Category:St. Mirren F.C.
693:Template:St. Mirren F.C.
482:Please do not modify it.
463:22:05, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
2378:Super Nintendo Chalmers
1107:assumption of bad faith
1019:St. Andrews United F.C.
1005:in the Premiership and
697:Template:St Mirren F.C.
422:cites another reason.
253:Scotland-related topics
1762:Manchester United F.C.
170:
39:This article is rated
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120:Association football
115:WikiProject Football
18:Talk:St. Mirren F.C.
1926:. For some reason
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1472:Stevie fae Scotland
1764:If you search for
1657:WP:Manual of Style
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389:Ticket Prices
388:
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367:
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351:
347:
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333:
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320:210.23.146.66
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258:
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180:(assessed as
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2254:
2194:
2153:
2152:
2138:Saint Mirren
2034:92.26.171.54
2029:
2007:abbreviation
1958:
1920:Saint Mirren
1897:Saint Mirren
1881:Saint Mirren
1869:Saint Mirren
1857:Saint Mirren
1811:Saint Mirren
1800:
1733:
1611:
1604:
1533:two points:
1489:
1451:
1436:
1416:WP:COMMONAME
1411:
1341:
1328:Most of the
1316:
1275:
1267:
1162:. Enough. --
1139:
1047:
1026:
994:
894:
889:
840:
820:
793:
756:
728:
558:
553:
545:
532:
501:WP:COMMONAME
495:
493:
481:
474:
448:
430:213.1.215.66
409:82.9.197.121
406:
395:Winterbottom
392:
365:
363:
342:195.11.198.1
314:— Preceding
311:
286:
242:
175:
153:
113:
51:WikiProjects
2074:Saint Mirin
2052:Once again
1924:Saint Mirin
1861:Saint Mirin
1740:is correct
1651:I did read
1536:The policy
833:WP:OFFICIAL
562:current log
520:Ncmvocalist
487:move review
424:—Preceding
380:Dudesleeper
370:Dudesleeper
336:—Preceding
41:Start-class
2542:Categories
2451:Fenix down
2443:Right wing
2318:HairedGirl
2297:Blethering
2277:HairedGirl
2248:Fenix down
2233:Blethering
2205:Blethering
2171:HairedGirl
2160:Fenix down
2095:Blethering
2079:Blethering
2011:Fenix down
1991:HairedGirl
1935:HairedGirl
1903:Blethering
1832:HairedGirl
1783:Blethering
1690:HairedGirl
1626:HairedGirl
1619:initialism
1552:HairedGirl
1424:Fenix down
1387:Joseph2302
1368:Blethering
1350:Joseph2302
1302:Blethering
1216:HairedGirl
1191:Blethering
1167:HairedGirl
1145:Blethering
1114:HairedGirl
1062:Blethering
1033:Blethering
967:HairedGirl
940:St Andrews
911:Blethering
868:HairedGirl
803:Blethering
772:HairedGirl
738:HairedGirl
566:target log
420:ESPN Story
402:Ronaldinho
2424:Salty1984
2228:St Mirren
2200:ST Mirren
2070:St Mirren
2058:St Mirren
1928:St Mirren
1877:St Mirren
1865:St Mirren
1853:ST Mirren
1807:St Mirren
1778:St Mirren
1774:St Mirren
1766:that term
1758:St Mirren
1742:ST Mirren
1297:Friedhelm
1160:bad faith
2472:Jellyman
2326:contribs
2285:contribs
2179:contribs
2127:article.
1999:contribs
1943:contribs
1840:contribs
1698:contribs
1678:acronym.
1634:contribs
1603:did you
1560:contribs
1492:Film Fan
1319:Film Fan
1278:Film Fan
1224:contribs
1175:contribs
1122:contribs
1050:Film Fan
1030:English.
975:contribs
876:contribs
842:sources.
839:is that
780:contribs
746:contribs
426:unsigned
338:unsigned
316:unsigned
308:Buddies?
262:Scotland
249:Scotland
205:Scotland
129:Football
75:Scotland
70:Football
2447:Fascism
2391:Support
2370:Support
2346:Support
2253:Please
2162:and by
2030:Support
1975:closure
1967:closure
1444:Snowman
1437:Support
1412:Support
1342:support
1268:Support
890:Opposed
455:Nanonic
289:on the
156:on the
2485:Top 6?
2395:JMHamo
2351:Number
2322:(talk)
2281:(talk)
2175:(talk)
2060:, not
1995:(talk)
1969:) and
1939:(talk)
1900:Saint.
1836:(talk)
1694:(talk)
1630:(talk)
1556:(talk)
1466:&
1452:Oppose
1414:- per
1220:(talk)
1171:(talk)
1118:(talk)
1021:&
971:(talk)
872:(talk)
855:, but
776:(talk)
765:WP:C2D
742:(talk)
559:Links:
366:should
47:scale.
2504:Badge
2316:Brown
2275:Brown
2169:Brown
2124:WP:AT
1989:Brown
1933:Brown
1830:Brown
1801:Reply
1688:Brown
1624:Brown
1550:Brown
1441:Giant
1214:Brown
1165:Brown
1112:Brown
965:Brown
866:Brown
821:Reply
770:Brown
736:Brown
2529:talk
2514:talk
2495:talk
2476:talk
2455:talk
2445:and
2428:talk
2399:talk
2382:talk
2302:Scot
2255:read
2238:Scot
2210:Scot
2166:. --
2100:Scot
2084:Scot
2038:talk
2015:talk
1908:Scot
1827:. --
1823:and
1788:Scot
1669:talk
1661:NATO
1621:. --
1605:read
1585:talk
1547:. --
1518:talk
1476:talk
1428:talk
1391:talk
1373:Scot
1354:talk
1332:and
1307:Scot
1270:per
1196:Scot
1150:Scot
1105:and
1067:Scot
1038:Scot
999:SPFL
962:. --
916:Scot
808:Scot
767:. --
757:Note
524:talk
510:RfC.
459:talk
451:here
445:pics
434:talk
346:talk
324:talk
251:and
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2177:• (
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1815:RFC
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148:Mid
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1895:,
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20:)
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