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Toriyama never actually explained why Goten and Trunks had it so easy when the older characters had such a difficult time. The issue with the Dragon Ball series is that the rules and/or details that
Toriyama makes earlier in the series are sometimes forgotten, discarded, or changed all together. This creates canon plotholes and inconsistencies, which ultimately makes it harder for us to write these articles. The Super Saiyan concept has been revamped several times by Toriyama himself, as well as other things like Saiyan tails and such. Goten, Trunks, and Bra don't have tails while Gohan did, even though all three characters are of the same percentage of Saiyan heritage. This of course can be contributed to Toriyama's forgetfulness to actually design the characters with tails. It has nothing to do with "human genes being more dominant in those characters" as many fans have fabricated through the years.--
938:
Vegeta. Also
Gotenks is labled as an SSj2 in the Perfect Files, and not labled in the Daizenshuu, even though we all assume that he had the ability to transform because he had access to the third form. And to be more relevant, another error in the perfect files is the one that you pointed out: stating that Pan could transform even though the Daizenshuu stated that she couldn't. Even though we editors are anal about using the Daizenshuu, we also keep in our minds that the Daizenshuu is not perfect, but it is more reliable then the Perfect Files because of the fact that it was not written by Toei like the Perfect Files were, but by Toriyama's manga team. If you feel that this needs to be noted, I suggest putting it on
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never even displayed the ability to become a Full Power SSJ, not like Goku and Gohan anyway, because they were constantly in Super Saiyan form non-stop (until Goku died). Personally, with all the training that he did and his ability to even become a Super Saiyan 2 (Goku & Gohan were the only ones other than Vegeta to get to SSJ2, they were Full Power SSJs), I think he'd have the motivation and commitment to become a Full Power SSJ. But that's just my opinion.
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1370:, has said that the main protagonist of that series has hair of the same style as a Super Saiyan. On the other hand, one source does not account for notability as pertaining to wikipedia. I have no strong feelings either way, and am willing to abide by whatever consensus comes out, provided that it is not a full on redirect to both pages, as a simple merge into one or the other might just be what is needed.
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246:'s journal, Goku's power level was 50 times his regular power level, so it was 6,400,000. Yet Bardock (in regular form) had a power level of 10,000 and yet his power level in Super Saiyan was 30,000 short of being equivalent to Frieza's power level on Namek, so it was 500,000. That means that if Bardock is the "legendary super saiyan", then how is Broly the Legendary Super Saiyan?
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Anime seems to hint that Vegeta became a SSJ around the time when he was searching for Goku in the year between the Frieza Saga and Trunks Saga.), and in regards to Trunk's/Cell's timeline, I don't know if this was in the Manga, but the Anime seemed to hint that Vegeta also became a Super Saiyan in that
Timeline as well (due to the fact that both the opening Narration of the
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Saiyan 3 we saw in Dragon Ball Z. Instead it follows
Legendary Super-Saiyan, (the Golden Monkey also known as the REAL Super-Saiyan form according to the anime)...". The article was written by Greg Werner and this particular issue was the July 2003 edition. Also, where did all of the pictures on this site go? It looks so naked and unexciting without them.--
1257:, with perhaps a brief merging of one or two sentences in the plot section to explain the concept at first mention. Neither is a notable term nor concept on its own. Both articles are primarily original research and plot regurgitation which is simply unnecessary. Only one has even a single reliable, third-party source and then only for a minor point. --
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True, but we use the
Daizenshuu, and try to avoid using the Perfect Files whenever possible. The reason we do this is because the Perfect Files is filled with so called "facts" that contradict the Daizenshuu. One example of this is that the Perfect Files lables Majin Vegeta as a SSj2, and not regular
325:
In regards to whether Vegeta was able to become Super Saiyan when he concieved trunks or not (I'm talking about both timelines), In the Main
Timeline, the Manga doesn't explicitly state how and when he got his Super Saiyan form, (though Vegeta implied that it had to due with being pure evil), but the
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The
Daizenshuu have already revealed that the first SSJ form has 50 times the ki or power level of the base form, but now, what's been going around is that the Official Super Exciting Guide has revealed that SSJ2 has two times the strength of the SSJ form and that SSJ3 has four times the strength of
971:
The reason why I erased the forms is because this is an article about the Super Saiyan, not a guide, therefore there is no reason to point out the different physical traits of every Super Saiyan form. We need to talk more about the evolution of the concept from OOU instead of how each form looks and
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The magazine I was talking about was
Beckett Collector DBZ, volume 4 number 7, page 14. I quote, "...This is even not technically Super-Saiyan 4 per say, rather this is actually what would be called Legendary (True) Super-Saiyan 2. In other words, it is not a form that comes after the "normal" Super
560:
In my opinion, this is kaioken. I saw this first on the first duel between Son Goku and Vegeta when Vegeta went to earth. Also, I think the reason of the yellow aura is because of using two times kaioken which haves the equivalent body of a Super Saiyan 2nd Grade. This needs confirmation though so I
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Sigh, and yet, at least in the Anime, he first transformed into one IN SPACE, where the only way he could have done it was during the Garlic Jr. Saga, since, 1. He stole the ship in the anime once, and I don't think Bulma or Dr. Briefs would allow him to pull off such a stint again, and 2. the Ship
352:
Vegeta became a Super Saiyan not too long before the androids appeared. How could you possibly think he was a Super Saiyan between the Frieze and Trunks saga? Did you not see how obssessed with it he was? How much he talked about finding that power one day, how he mentioned to Goku that during their
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When you think about it, Vegeta never went Full Power SSJ, although there is some speculation about it. I mean, when he was training with Trunks in the gravity room at 150 g, he was a Super Saiyan, and he seemed to handle it pretty well. But afterwards, during the World
Martials Arts tournament, he
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SSj4 was removed by a vandal several days ago, however those edits have since been reverted. None of Dragon Ball GT was manga, the manga ended at the end of Z. Also, none of the movies were manga either, which explains why there is a separate section with Toei (the animation company who made Dragon
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Hey, I was just looking up random resaerch to look up, and come to find that SS4 is not on here! I doubt anyone has any objection to even saying that SS4, while it may not have been in the manga (I'm not sure on that, I've never actually read the manga's, but I don't know if it is in there or not),
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It could be mentioned, but the part about them being able to achieve Super Saiyan so easily because they were concieved after their fathers reached SSj is purely fan speculation. Also, we can't be sure when exactly Vegeta acheived Super Saiyan, or if he was a Super Saiyan when Trunks was concieved.
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I agree with
VorangorTheDemon. But another puzzling thing is the rumors that the Original Super Saiyan was the first legendary super saiyan. The first (original and legendary) Super Saiyan was Bardock, when he fought Chilled, Frieza's ancestor. This would mean Bardock is the Original Super Saiyan,
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Super Saiyan never appeared in the series. That filler episode during the Other World Torunament Saga, that was just Goku in his base form, just powered-up, not even Super Saiyan or Super Kaio-ken or anything else. Oh, and Kaio-ken x2 - that never had even a spark of yellow. The first time we ever
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I'm not entirely convinced that all the info regarding the Legendary Super Saiyan is accurate. I don't think it's proven that the chi increases as battle continues, and I can't find reference supporting the claim that it does. I also can't find any evidence to support the fact that the form has no
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Yeah, I agree, that "dads were Super Saiyan when they were conceived" is just fan speculation, and do I believe that? Well, maybe a little bit, but that couldn't have been the total reason. They got some Super Saiyan genes, but the only reasonable reason is that they just happened to pull it off
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Wouldn't it be worth mentioning how easily Kid Trunks, and Kid Goten managed to achieve super saiyan? I'm notexplicity explained in the anime other than Gohan being surprised by his younger brother transforming so easily, and Goten explaining that he thought everyone could do it. Could this be
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And even IF it was just before the Androids saga rather than between the Frieza and Trunks Saga, it was proven in both Future Trunk's flashback of "Ghosts of the Future" AND the opening scene of "the History of trunks" that Vegeta also became a SSJ in his/cell's timeline (Ironically, those same
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Your welcome, UzEE. Also, I saw the updated information. Doesn't SS4 base some of its energy off of the Sayin tail transformation (the giant ape)? I know I read that somewhere, it may have been a magazine. I assume either that idea is just in the American version, or that there just wasn't a
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Vegeta never used the False Super Saiyan in the first saga, which was the Saiyan Saga. He wasn't even close to going False Super Saiyan, and anyway, he was totally outmatched by Goku in his Kaio-ken x3 form. The only person who ever went False Super Saiyan was Goku in the Lord Slug movie.
1006:
Yeah, the lack of description is what turned me off about the article as well, so I added that Gotenks too achieved Super Saiyan 3 and how draining it was for Goku, please do not delete since I tried to keep it at minimum length whenever possible, as with the Super Saiyan advanced grades
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chi consumption. I've attempted to edit it several times to where it doesn't make those claims, but someone keeps reverting my edits. Just stating the movies or what Daizenshuu it's in isn't enough, we need to site the exact page or exact original Japanese movie quote. Otherwise it's
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There's nothing that states that, it's simply an observation that it is fifty fold for Goku's first transformation. No one is sure if that increase is consistent for all Saiyans, and there's several theories that the power ratio of Saiyan to Super Saiyan decreases as time
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The Dragonball GT Perfect File suggests females can transform, and also states Pan had the potential. The latter does contradict Toriyama's statement that Pan's blood is too diluted, but not whether or not females with at least half saiyan blood can or cannot.
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AND Future Trunk's recollection of the apocalyptic future in the episode "Ghosts from Tomorrow", so I can't say that it was because of Vegeta being an SSJ when Kid Trunks was concieved, whileas he wasn't an SSJ when Future Trunks was concieved due to that.
1279:
I agree with what you're saying... well, if I could understand most of it! Anyway, an old page named Dragon Ball (artifact) was merged so this should be, too (there isn't even a page for the main idea of the series so why should "Saiyan?).
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three year training he would achieve this? When Vegeta tells us how he achieved this before fighting #19 you can see he's wearing his recently updated saiyan armour in the flashback, which he didn't have before the android saga.
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In the SSJ4 section it mentions that Toriyama drew his own version of the form and included it in a DVD set. I think it would be interesting to see this and/or have it in the article, are there any pictures available? -
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I agree that the forms don't need their own sections, but I think the least we could do is give a short description of each in the Appearence part. I don't really see what would be uncyclopedic about it.-
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If they are merged, Super Saiyan should be merged in Saiyan since Saiyan is the primary term. If you want more responses, ask in the wikiproject and add the merge tag. Still none of these articles pass
824:, he gained complete mastery of the form (he did transform into SS2, afterall) and so should be included in the list of confirmed users of Full Power Super Saiyan. Anonymous, well-meaning fan
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is achieved in the series. There's also a reason why there's a box now at the top of the page that states that there's alot of unimportant information regarding this subject. Arguments? --
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it was at least in the American anime. I would just add it myself, but I'm new to this and it would most likely be taken down due to lack of references on my part. Just my opinion. --
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Per Vorangor, (Nice to see you). False Super Saiyan has confirmed sources, Toei for instance. And using two times Kaio-Ken still doesnt warrant the yellow aura. That would simply be
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I would also thank you for NOT just going ahead and editing the article. Instead bringing the matter here is a lot more easier for everyone. I'll drop you a welcome note I made for
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I suppose (if you had a cite) there's the wide range of parodies. I always thought of a Reception section as stating more of how fans reacted to whatever the article is about.--
960:
Good suggestion. Though I've always been curious if females are capable if they have at least half saiyan blood. Should this be brought up or left out due to lack of evidence?
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I think that the article should include it, but I don't think it should be required. O yea, and thanks BulletProof for finding more references about the Legendary SSj. --
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False Super Saiyan was a form invented by Toei for movie 4. It does not appear in the series, other then a filler episode during the Other World Tournament saga. --
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using the SSJ genes. Toriyama probably thought, "Well, every other Saiyan or half-Saiyan can go Super Saiyan, so I'll just make Goten & Kid Trunks do it too."
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368:(or at least one of them) was destroyed by Vegeta when he took his training a bit too far (and he was hospitalized as a result.). THAT'S what I meant by that.
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The issue is that there is no definative pre-requisites for SSj2. And Vegeta has never been confirmed to be a Full Power SSj, so stating that he is would be
673:
Besides all of that, (excellent arguements in their own rights) we have also seen twenty times Kaio-Ken and Super Kaio-Ken, which both retain the red aura.
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Ball) only forms. If you are going to be frequently editing the Dragon Ball articles, might I suggest that you join Knowledge's Dragon Ball project (
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I also agree that it is never stated that Vegeta went Full Power SSJ, although there is some speculation about him having maintained it in the
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page. They should be merged together. Does anyone agree? A lot of Dragon Ball pages are being merged so this should be, too.
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page and not here, her page needs to be expanded anyway or else it is going to be merged into a list. --
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1062:. It doesn't make a whole lot of sense to have a blank section. Get a starting sentence at least.--
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I have a arguement involving vegeta as well, Vegeta uses the false super saiyan in the first saga
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and yet the first Legendary Super Saiyan. That means he also had a weak power level. According to
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the SSJ2 form. Shouldn't this info be verified, and if so, included in the article?
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saw a bit of yellow in a Kaio-ken form was when Goku powered up to Kaio-ken against
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If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the
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The structure of this article is in question. You can help reach a consensus by
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because they are sons of saiyans who had transformed before their conception?
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Yeah. You could probably merge it with the "In other Media" section, too.--
869:. However, with the amount of training that he did, it is not impossible.
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reference for it. I will try to find the magazine in which I read it in.--
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I don't know. Super Saiyan has become at least a little bit notable.
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No. There are no other "Full Power" SSj forms beyond the first form. --
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scroll down to see it. There is a better one out there though.--
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You could leave it removed until you have something to actually
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Couldn't find much of any reception on the net, save for a few
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scenes also depicted his death at the hands of the Androids).
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filled up. Removing it won't help it's case. Any ideas?
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That can be simply explained in th characters articles.
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237:An Odd Thing about the Legendary Super Saiyan
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269:Ease of transformation for young characters
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813:may have utilized an inefficient form of
32:does not require a rating on Knowledge's
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1434:Redirect-Class anime and manga articles
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1439:NA-importance anime and manga articles
1412:Do not edit the contents of this page.
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1253:I think both should be redirected to
434:Info about the Legendary Super Saiyan
116:Knowledge:WikiProject Anime and manga
92:This redirect is within the scope of
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119:Template:WikiProject Anime and manga
561:do not know if this is right yet.
304:Interesting! Thanks for the reply.
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1330:Dragon Ball
1255:Dragon Ball
1213:page and a
1189:continues.-
1183:Mekhatronic
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150:This is an
1428:Categories
1379:Sasuke9031
1368:D.Gray-man
1125:Neko Majin
900:Son Gohan
819:Majin Buu
817:, by the
641:dont want
244:Son Gohan
210:Archive 4
203:Archive 3
198:Archive 2
193:Archive 1
1387:contribs
1375:unsigned
1282:DBZfan29
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181:Archives
30:redirect
1407:archive
1304:Tintor2
1239:Tintor2
1084:. You?
569:Dairyll
306:Grimmie
276:Grimmie
258:undated
153:archive
1211:Saiyan
811:Vegeta
729:WP:DBZ
707:WP:DBZ
525:Kazi22
484:bullet
248:Norris
36:scale.
1139:edits
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1060:write
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940:Pan's
848:WP:OR
489:proof
441:WP:OR
104:manga
100:anime
28:This
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1156:Dude
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1345:千？！
1337:ダイノ
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