Talk:Political positions of Barack Obama/Archive 4

3001:

article editors... The neutral point of view is a means of dealing with the conflicting verifiable perspectives on a topic found in reliable sources. The policy requires that where multiple or conflicting perspectives exist within a topic, each must be presented fairly... all of the various significant published viewpoints are made accessible to the reader, and not just the most popular. An article should not assert that the most popular view is the correct one, nor should this be implied by mentioning some views only pejoratively. Readers should be allowed to form their own opinions... Knowledge is filled with reliably sourced non-neutral statements, so the elimination of article content cannot be justified under this policy solely on the grounds that it is "POV". Article content should clearly describe, represent, and characterize disputes within topics, but should not endorse any particular point of view. Instead, articles should provide background on who believes what, and why, and on which points of view are more popular. Detailed articles will often contain evaluations of each viewpoint, but these, too, must studiously refrain from taking sides... All editors and all sources have biases (in other words, all editors and all sources have a point of view) — what matters is how we combine them to create a neutral article. Unbiased writing is the fair, analytical description of all relevant sides of a debate, including the mutual perspectives and the published evidence... Assert facts, including facts about opinions—but do not assert the opinions themselves... When we discuss an opinion, we attribute the opinion to someone and discuss the fact that they have this opinion..."

3259:

experience, education, and number of years on the job." However, even though the claim that "women make 76 cents on the dollar" that liberals frequently make is also based on "a matter of title and seniority rather than sex discrimination," this has not stopped liberals from constantly, repeatedly, complaining about the this gender pay gap, again and again and again. Obama should be held to the same standards that Obama holds other employers to. Just as Obama's gender pay gap is "a matter of title and seniority rather than sex discrimination," so is the gender pay gap of employers that Obama accuses of gender pay discrimination. Obama should be held to the same standards that Obama holds other employers to. Therefore, this criticism of Obama should included in the article. It is incredibly hypocritical that the only time liberals attribute the gender pay differential to "a matter of title and seniority rather than sex discrimination," is when the accusation of discrimination is made against a liberal politician. In all other cases when an employer is accused of paying women less than men, liberals, including Obama, never blame this pay differentiatial on "a matter of title and seniority rather than sex discrimination." Therefore, to not include this in the article is just one more example of how this article is biased against including viewpoints that are critical of Obama, and thus violates

2290:. Further, there is usually no contradiction between believing a criminal law should be changed, and enforcing the current law as long as it remains on the books. If city council decides to increase the speed limit from 30 to 50 miles per hour on a road, the cops will give out tickets for cars going 40 until the signs are changed. Even if one could find reliable secondary sourcing, that is not the subject of the article. So there is a weight and relevancy issue here. The subject here is what Obama's political positions are, not characterization of Obama as being hypocritical, indecisive, contradictory, or whatever. In an article on medical marijuana in California, or the federal drug policy, this one raid might deserve a brief mention. If we do decide that this is important enough to include, a neutral way to say it would go something like "In June, 2008 the DEA announced that it would no longer lead raids against medical marijuana dispensaries. A clinic in San Francisco was raided the next week" (after which, no raids were performed for x years? or "a series of raids were conducted over the next month" or whatever the future brings - this should be updated when we know more). 3301:

show on a daily basis that temporary topic bans and personal declarations of restraint mean nothing and have no effect on your editorial state of mind or behavior. You should be banned not only from editing political articles but from participating on their talk pages, as you have shown repeatedly that you prefer to absolutely flood them with trumped up partisan synthesis to proper editorial sourcing, and you intend to hold talk pages hostage to deflecting your inane and unfounded "suggestions", compelling us to call you on every shred of your disingenuousness and explain issues to you rather than you reading more than one screed to learn about them yourself. Because of you, each archive of an Obama article contains more discussion of and links to your puerile presentations of unfounded synthesis than of real issues; indeed, more than the articles themselves contain links to accurate sources. Any further discussion of this issue with you would be absolute insanity. Any editor familiar with the protocol of doing so should instead request an administrative review of your actions to implement a

1742:

with the use of words like "However" when expressing the differences between Obama's rhetoric and his actions, which tends to create a false dichotomy by highlighting the differences. There is also going to be situations where an action complies with one bit of rhetoric while also violating another. An example of this would be the "cigarette tax" that Grundle tried to push in earlier as showing that obama violated his "No new taxes for anyone making less than 250k". Even though Obama was talking about payroll taxes, some have interpreted that as being no taxes at all and as a result, when Obama signed the bill that raised cigarette taxes, they pointed at that tax and did the hand waving and complaining about Obama violating his campaign promise. However, even if he did violate the no new taxes promise, the raising of the cigarette tax is in compliance with his promise to lower health care costs. The higher a pack of smokes cost, the less people smoke, the less likely they are to get lung cancer and the other health care issues they incur, thus reducing health care costs, etc. --

4780:

structure of the articles is with respect to how federal / tribal summits and presidential initiatives are described. Tribal-state and tribal-federal relations is a very rich subject and presidents themselves have often been substantially involved, e.g. Eisenhower and Nixon. Also, I see there is an article devoted to the conference itself, which would be where all of the detail goes. The question, then, is where else if anywhere should there be a link and a brief description. I might suggest the "presidency of..." over the "political positions of..." article because it's more of a presidential act than a presidential policy (despite the positive quote, actions are more telling than words). However, as a bit of a caution both this article and that other one are a slightly harsh editing environment and people often simply delete things that they consider too biased, trivial, irrelevant, or weakly sourced. Anyway, I'll sit on this and give it some more thought. As they say Knowledge has no deadline. -

4799:. The promise "You will not be forgotten as long as I'm in this White House," however, seems a bit vague for articles so broad. Perhaps there's a transcript available on the C-SPAN website, or a video presentation there that could be reviewed for substantive quotes? Part of the point was to listen and request input, upon which hopefully they will build and execute plans. If there are specific changes in the way the government and the tribes interact, these should be noted to some extent. I vaguely recall a few comments about some such changes already made, but as I had not yet read this and was otherwise engaged with that on in the background, the specifics slip my mind. The general subject certainly bears mentioning; as I assume is the case with Wikidemon, my interest is that its mention be tightly substantive. I should think that leaving out the quote and noting the cabinet members who participated would be a reasonable start. 3613:, "Although cast as a tax on gold-plated insurance policies for the well-heeled, it has prompted anxiety among the middle class... The supposedly Cadillac insurance policies include ones that cover many of the nation’s firefighters and coal miners, older employees at small businesses — a whole gamut that runs from union shops to Main Street entrepreneurs... Under the Baucus plan, insurers selling a plan costing more than $ 8,000 for an individual and $ 21,000 for a family would have to pay a 35 percent excise tax on the excess amount... The tax would be levied on insurers — or on employers that act as their own insurers. Either way, the tax would very likely be passed along to workers in even higher premiums than they pay now... On Sunday, President Obama... defended the tax." This should be mentioned in this article, because it contradicts Obama's claim that he would not raise taxes on anyone making less than $ 250,000 per year. 3233:

repeat this criticism tens of thousands of times. It's a complex issue having to do with the lingering effects of historical discrimination, the composition of the workplace, availability of candidates, and in some cases, the career choices made by people of different sexes. None of that is specific to Obama. Off-Knowledge, those who are criticizing Obama on this score are doing so for their own political agenda, whether that be conservative opposition or liberals who want him to do something, or just people for whom that is their major issue. Even if we could source this, the fact that a criticism is made is of only marginal relevance to Obama's actual positions. To get into any article it would have to be sourced as a significant enough issue per

1635:

getting into the article unless there is strong, reliable, neutral sourcing that indicates that this is a major position of Obama's. There probably won't be because it probably isn't. Although the leader of any organization is to some extent responsible for every act of the organization, every act of the organization does not make it into the biography, for reasons that should be obvious. You can pick up the newspaper every day and perhaps 5-10% of the news copy is about something done by the executive branch of the American federal government. If we put all of it into the article, the article would have tens of thousands of sections, and would not tell the reader in any useful way about Obama's political positions.

2144:

Secondarily, I think that the structure of the article is flawed, which only makes it harder. I mentioned this a few times months ago. That when Obama says or does something, is it a "position", an "opinion", a "belief", a "policy goal", a "promise", a Presidential "act", etc? The word "position" is kind of murky and nonspecific. So the whole premise of the article is a bit off. Perhaps candidates for office can be said to have "positions", i.e. formally stated principles, credos, or indications of approval or disapproval of given issues, plans, and laws. But once someone is in office, what really counts is what they do, what they say, and how they operate, not what they formally say as their position on things.

1417:: Here is a quote from Michael Shaffer, a deserter from the Vietnam War: “After six months in the Army, my application for CO status was denied and I was told that I would be going to Vietnam. I refused to draw my weapon and was ordered court-martialed. On Labour Day 1970 I was able to escape and cross into Canada....During President Ford’s Clemency Program in 1975, I went to Fort Dix seeking the “Undesirable Discharge” offered to deserters who turned themselves in. The Army decided that I wasn’t eligible and court-martial proceedings were resumed. With help from the ACLU, I was released and two years later a Federal Court ordered the Army to discharge me Honourably as a Conscientious Objector” See 603:

including it. That is as true for Iraq as it is for an education policy. There are certainly more central places to include Iraq troop drawdown material, e.g. the article about the war, or the presidency article. However, on the face of it the Iraq war issue seems closer to a cognizable and important policy of Obama', whereas the school voucher issue is a relatively small issue much farther afield from major policy questions, and only hints of a partisan issue that has been getting relatively less attention recently, namely school vouchers.

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which brought an end to a successful voucher program for nearly 2,000 students in Washington D.C. Although the Washington D.C. public school district spends nearly $ 13,500 per student, and the vouchers for private schools were only $ 7,500 per student , a federal study of the voucher program concluded that the voucher program was a significant success at providing students with a better education than that of the city's public schools.

2596:(D-New York) that asks Obama's administration to clarify its position on the subject. Hinchey stated, "I've been greatly encouraged by what President Obama and Attorney General Holder's public statements in support of state's determining their own medical marijuana, but remain concerned about the matter since the federal government has still continued raids in states that permit the use of marijuana for medicinal purposes." 1822:, where he had said, "I can make a firm pledge... Under my plan, no family making less than $ 250,000 a year will see any form of tax increase. Not your income tax, not your payroll tax, not your capital gains taxes, not any of your taxes... you will not see any of your taxes increase one single dime." It was reported that the tax disproportionately affects the poor, who are more likely to smoke than the rich. 560:

about education in the District of Columbia, or something specific like that. It does not seem to be noteworthy in proportion to the overall weight of Obama's presidency or political outlook so I wouldn't include it in the Obama summary articles. But see our earlier discussion - I really wish there were a timeline or some better way to jump quickly to a chronicle of all of Obama's acts as President.

3287:. Encyclopedias do not purposely place untruths in articles to make a political point, or to balance out other perceived untruths. To reek of partisanship and antipathy for the subject of an article, as you do, is one thing. But when you openly acknowledge that you intend to knowingly place untruths into a political Obama article for a personal partisan vendetta against perceived hypocrisy 3323:, "Starting right now, I am taking a voluntary break from editing all political articles for the next 96 hours. I am doing this as a gesture of good will. Grundle2600 (talk) 02:29, 28 September 2009 (UTC)." I never said anything about the talk pages. The purpose of this is so I can concentrate 100% on discussion and establishing consensus, instead of just haphazardly editing articles. 545:. Are you arguing that actions the Obama administration takes regarding it's declared political positions does not belong in an article on Obama's Political Positions? Then you better get to editing the Iraq section, because it does just that. Information on what the administration DOES regarding its political positions is as pertintent as the positions themselves.-- 1795:. Hinchey stated, "I've been greatly encouraged by what President Obama and Attorney General Holder's public statements in support of state's determining their own medical marijuana, but remain concerned about the matter since the federal government has still continued raids in states that permit the use of marijuana for medicinal purposes." 3191:

are not. That is not the point. The point is the pay discrepancies exist and it did create some controversy. Also, the entire point of the second article was to criticize Obama on this issue. It was clear because the author clearly stated that equal pay begins at home. So please tell me what your problem with the second article was.

1726:

of Congress asking Obama to clarify his position, someone else erased it. When a politician says he takes one side on an issue, and his actions are in support of the other side, the article should mention both. The fact that the Bush article and the Obama article are being treated differently is quite interesting.

4816:

positions, removing third-party editorial commentary and vague soundbites or quotes (for instance "Americans deserve a jobs recovery" is not a political position but "we should extend unemployment benefits another 20 weeks" is). I'm not saying this doesn't belong on wikipedia, just not in this article. --

3531:

For a long time, the article has cited Obama's opposition to offshore drilling, and no one ever complained about it being in the article, or removed it. Unless anyone can reasonably justify why the article should not be updated with adding Obama's new action in favor of drilling, I will add it to the

3452:

A search for "environment" hits twice: a tangential remark about Antarctica, and a link to an external website. The link is broken. Barrack Obama has positions on the environment, they are political ones, and they're important. They are of course tied into his energy and other policies, but should

3340:

Wikidemon, you said that this is "not a political position." The "Equal pay" section of this article has been in the article for a very long time, and you have never criticized it or erased it. Only when an Obama critic holds Obama to the same standards that Obama holds everyone else to, do you claim

3190:

FACT: Barack Obama paid women on his senate staff less than the men on his senate staff. FACT: Barack Obama had more men in senior positions on his senate staff than women. FACT: Barack Obama was criticized for this. None of this is disputed. Maybe the pay discrepancies are legitimate, maybe they

2958:

And there are videos, statements, and responses that says he doesn't believe it anymore. This is mainly a game of dirt digging to provide more fuel for a political fire. We are not here to fuel various lobbying groups fight against health care reform nor do we report every little bit of dirt on the

2878:

new article on this topic, which quotes Obama as having said, "I don’t think we’re going to be able to eliminate employer coverage immediately. There’s going to be, potentially, some transition process: I can envision a decade out, or 15 years out, or 20 years out." That's a very reliable source, and

2645:

article. It says "George W. Bush's political positions have been expressed in public statements, and through his actions as President of the United States." So, if Pres Obama's stated position and his actual policies don't merge, is it SYNTH to mention them both? If not, which should be the preferred

1634:

Okay, at this point people are just repeating their arguments. In case it wasn't clear before, I object to inclusion of any of this in any form, due to lack of sourcing, relevance, weight, NPOV policy, and SYNTH. Each of those is a formidable barrier, and I do not see the remotest possibility of it

1489:

Josiah, in order to address the military tribunals here, you will have to beat back those who say what Obama *does* as president is irrelevant to his "political positions". If you attempt to post Obama's policy actions regarding Gitmo you will find it necessary to mention what he promised previously.

559:

I would say yes, that one should not try to infer political positions from acts of governance. The voucher thing is an event, not a position. As for placement, assuming it is notable (looks like it is), it might fit in an article about the program, the bill or regulation that enabled it, an article

397:

Illinois law already required medical care in such situations " (bold is Schrandit's addition). No, it it not an assertion, it is a plain matter of reading what Illinois law actually says. Obama was reciting what the law says, it is not a matter of opinion. The National Review is hardly a reliable

4183:

You said that Obama's statement was taken out of context, but you did not explain what Obama did mean when he said it. Since I already asked you what he meant three times, and you did not answer, I will not ask you again. Obama's quote appears in the text of the Politico article, which is a reliable

3936:

Newross, I asked you, "Since you claim the quote was taken out of context, please explain what Obama meant when he said those words." So far, you have not answered my question. Since Politico is a reliable source, if you continue to not answer my question, I will eventually put the quote back in the

2613:

This article is not going to become your personal laundry list of "Obama did this, but some people say that happened, "Obama said this, but some people say he did that instead" criticisms. It is simply not going to happen, grundle, and until you understand the why's and the how's of editing policy,

1725:

Manawyddan - thank you for pointing that out. When I added the quote of Obama's campaign promise to stop DEA raids on states that legalized medical marijuana, no one objected. But when I later added that the raids were still continuing after Obama's inauguration, and a quote from a Democratic member

1358:

Logically speaking, he can't have it both ways: He logically has only two options: Either he is proud of being head of an organization which is out of his control, or he must accept, as his "political position" the actions of that organization--especially actions as strong as jailing someone for a

680:

I think we agree. I was just heading towards a, and you're heading towards b. Also, I might be alone in this but I would add "party platforms", "actions", "campaign promises", and a few other things that are related but not quite the same thing as a political position. To jumble them all together

140:

Added information to this sentence clarifying that it was in the Illinois state legislature, and briefly described the purpose of the act. New version: "In the Illinois state legislature, Obama opposed the Induced Infant Liability Act, which would have extended legal protection to infants born alive

4779:

Interesting question. I don't know either but I can take a look. I would start by checking to see whether there are any categories, portals, and/or wikiprojects focusing on Native Americans or indigenous / tribal people more broadly, and then following the article links from there to see what the

4418:

Someone has removed the Associated Press citation of the DEA drug raid. Such removal of relevant, well sourced information is inexcusable. When a politician says he has one position on an issue, but he acts the opposite of his claim, the article should cite both of those things. Obama said he would

3278:

You have just stated that you know the accusation in your proposed edit is untrue, but you intend to place the accusation into the article anyway because these edits and suggestions of yours are part of a larger battle with liberals that you feel ceaselessly compelled to wage at Knowledge. Bro, you

2681:

I think we should use that statement in the Bush article (which has been in existence many years longer than the Obama article) as an example of how to write the Obama article. Since it's OK for the Bush article to include actions as well as words, then it's also OK for the Obama article to mention

2285:

I don't support this as presently worded. The edit summaries seem to suggest that this is introduced as evidence of "flip flopping" or actions contradicting words. It is not for us to make those claims, and the source does not tie this raid to Obama's drug policy (but rather the announcement last

2143:

No, I'm right!!!! (just kidding, I haven't even said anything yet) Anyway, I think the main problem with the article is that it's at a deadlock, because every single change gets a lot of scrutiny and discussion, so we can't keep the article updated as fast as events are occurring. It's outdated.

1858:

785:

The article said that Obama's tax increases would lead to increased tax revenue. In the name of balance, I have added other sources which claim that such tax increases would create incentives that would cause people to alter their behavior in ways that would lead to tax revenues going down, not up.

627:

explicitly states that Barack Obama does not support vouchers. The stated policy of the administration was to totally defund the D.C. voucher program. Under POLTICAL pressure by D.C. Democratic politicians and protesting parents who almost certainly voted for Obama, his modified position is to fund

221:

That's not enough. This article is under Obama article probation, meaning that major edits should be discussed and consensus reached before making them. If edits have been reverted by two editors, that means that this matter needs to be discussed, and other editors weigh in, and consensus reached.

4794:

There was some coverage of the 11/5 event today on one of the C-SPAN networks. As with the "inaugural" characterization, it was noted during the event that this was the first time a president had brought important cabinet members with him to meet and discuss issues with tribal representatives. I

3714:

Grundle, don't pretend this hasn't been explained to you repeatedly. It is not up to other editors to convince you not to add something. It is up to you to convince other editors why it should be added. The fact that many editors grow weary of your antics and don't respond to every single thing

3000:

states, "All Knowledge articles and other encyclopedic content must be written from a neutral point of view, representing fairly, and as far as possible without bias, all significant views that have been published by reliable sources. This is non-negotiable and expected of all articles, and of all

2547:

Do you have a reliable source that says that Obama has a current active policy of enforcing the marijuana laws, that Obama has stated a policy position not to enforce these laws, and that the two are in contradiction (or are in any way related)? If you don't find that all in the same source, it's

1741:

Beyond the all important "If you have a problem with how things are done on the GWB article, take it up there, not here, otherwise stop whining about it" reminder, how one handles rhetoric vs. actions is always going to be a difficult issue. One of the areas where Grundle2600 got into trouble was

1586:

Therefore, in a way, my information about the one year imprisonment of Clifford Cornell is a truism. You might ask, “why bother posting a truism on Knowledge?” The reason: to clarify Obama’s position as stated in the important first paragraph of the entire article (not just the section on Iraq).

1554:

The fact that Obama claims to be honoured to be Commander in Chief of the US military means to me that his position is the same as the Military’s position until he states otherwise. Imagine if Obama, in his Iraq war speech of Feb 27, 2009, had said the following: “I feel honoured to be your head

1373:

This is veering off into the absurd. A soldier was convicted for desertion by the USMJ. Standard practice. That is all there is to the story. You appear to believe that this sets up a conflict between Obama's anti-war position and his being CiC when a deserter was sentenced. That supposition is

739:

Regarding school vouchers, in February 2008, Obama said, "If there was any argument for vouchers it was, all right, let's see if this experiment works, and then if it does, whatever my preconceptions, my attitude is you do what works for the kids." However, in March 2009, Obama signed legislation

3693:

Again, Grundle: Editors make suggestions all the time but not always get a positive feedback or in this case, there is only a negative feedback to it. So I (personally) would hold back with any edit in this regard and would go for more (mildly aggressive?) discussion before adding anything to the

3300:

that got an arbitration request closed by the requesting editor—you are making a mockery of everything you say, promise, do or intend, and a mockery of every sincere and patient effort in good faith (and there have been many) to explain an encyclopedic standard or elucidate an issue for you. You

2026:

All Knowledge articles and other encyclopedic content must be written from a neutral point of view, representing fairly, and as far as possible without bias, all significant views that have been published by reliable sources. This is non-negotiable and expected of all articles, and of all article

1961:

It's definitely getting heavy and if not now, within the next 6 months will need to be split. Another possibility (as the majority of the article concerns campaign positions) is to split it into the campaign positions versus the presidential policies. This might make more sense as we've kind of

1755:

First of all, I don't have any problem with the Bush article. It's the Obama article that I have a problem with, for not being as honest about hypocrisy as the Bush article is. Secondly, on the cigarette tax thing, no one has ever cited proof that Obama was only talking about income taxes. Third,

1694:

article says "George W. Bush's political positions have been expressed in public statements, and through his actions as President of the United States." So, if Pres Obama's stated position and his actual policies don't precisely merge, is it SYNTH to mention them both? If not, which should be the

1260:

for guidelines on use of talk pages. This article is about political positions. There is another article that covers the presidency overall. However, the material you are proposing does not appear to involve Obama to any significant degree, except by your own personal reasoning. Please review

1212:

However, the problem is that this article is on the political positions of Barack Obama, not his actions. It's understandable that you may not like Obama or you may not like some of his actions. That is understandable. Yet, this talk page, and even Knowledge itself, is not the place to debate

4815:

Yes, but it still isn't a political position. It's an event, and a notable one, but there is no position or policy produced by the event. "You will not be forgotten" can't be called a political position in any sense of the word. We've been pretty strenuous about limiting this article to just

4737:

I am okay with the notion of covering Obama's Native American tribe-related policies here in a sentence or three, and using the meeting to illustrate that milestone. It's a significant presidential policy area even if it's not always on everyone's mind. Do be patient please - valid content is

4558:

One guy, I think the earliest one, had apparently $ 100,000 in cash confiscated from his home. If true, that sounds to me like a slight possibility that there was indeed something "wrong" with his business, but we don't judge, we don't do our own research, right? So this is just to add on to my

3232:

on an issue that has little to do with Obama, is not a "political position", and is best discussed on some other page relating to gender pay disparity. One could probably find tens of thousands of people and organizations in the US that have been criticized on the subject, and we don't need to

2032:

In cases where Obama has taken one position on an issue, and then later taken the opposite position, NPOV requires that the article cite both positions. To cite one position without citing the other, violates NPOV. I have cited examples of this in the talk page (some of which is now archived).

1760:

that suggested that by raising the cigarette tax, Obama may have been breaking his promise. Fourth, I think it's open to interpretation if Obama broke his promise or not, and I just wanted the readers to have all the facts so they could make up their own mind. Fifth, I eventually cited a single

958:

As Commander in Chief of a military that sentenced Cornell to one year in prison, Obama has assumed ultimate political responsibility for declaring the Iraq war “not dumb” until he ends it in 2010. This is informative to Knowledge readers who assumed that Obama may have thought the Iraq war was

848:

I agree with Wikidemon that it hardly matters what Obama promised anymore and editorializing about the presuppositions of his promises is only compounding the problem. On the other hand, Obama *does* have an established political position from the campaign regarding the raising of taxes and the

652:

it has a chance to be something useful and not accomplished elsewhere: a middle ground between Obama's political positioning in the campaign and executive policies that documents how Barack Obama's campaign positions affected his policy decisions and how (and to the degree) his policies carried

2618:

for example. The Iraq war is arguably the most divisive position the man took in his 8 years in office. All it gives is a blurb about what he did and why he did it. I'd be just as opposed to a parade of lefties cramming stuff in there about yellowcake, the Surge, or al-Qaeda as I am opposed

944:

This is a significant clarification in policy because it shows that he does not think that it is a “dumb war” until the date comes that he set for ending it. This clarifies the statement he made on Oct. 2, 2002, about the war in Iraq, in which he said, “What I am opposed to is a dumb war.” See

602:

I'm not sure what specifically you are referring to. If it is a plan, proposal, position, etc., and suitably sourced as such, it makes some sense to work that in. If it's simply an act, with no sourcing as to how that relates to what his position is on the subject, then there is no basis for

4201:

Politico is a reliable source, and the text of their article cites the Obama quote. Furthermore, although Newross states that the quote was taken out of context, he has refused my multiple requests to explain what the quote actually means. Therefore, I am adding the quote back to the article.

4945: 4921: 2431:

spokesman Matthew Miller said the Department's official policy is: "We will not prioritize federal resources to target medical marijuana facilities unless they are violating state and federal law." "We're not enforcing state law," Miller said. "We're enforcing federal law, but only for those

412:

In Neutrally worded language, how would you describe what happens to children who are born despite attempts at late term abortion? I think the above language is about as accurate as one can get to the truth and I'm not really sure how else one would describe an infant "born alive". Per his

3258:

entitled "Gender Wage Gap Is Feminist Fiction" from the libertarian Independent Women's Forum stated: "A study of the gender wage gap conducted by economist June O' Neill, former director of the Congressional Budget Office, found that women earn 98 percent of what men do when controlled for

1817:

Early in his presidency, Obama signed a law raising the tobacco tax 62 cents on a pack of cigarettes. The tax is to be "used to finance a major expansion of health insurance for children", and "help some to quit and persuade young people not to start". Some considered this tax increase to

964:

If the military, of which Obama is Chief, had turned a blind eye to Clifford Cornell, then there would be no policy set. But the acts of charging, convicting, and sentencing to one year in prison are all very strong “active” acts of policy. They are not passive, nor neutral acts. They are

4599:

In May 2008, Obama campaign spokesman Ben LaBolt told the San Francisco Chronicle that Obama would end DEA raids on medical marijuana suppliers in states with their own laws. However, on August 12, 2009, federal DEA agents raided two medical marijuana facilities in Culver City, California.

3391:

requires that the article mention both of these things: "All Knowledge articles and other encyclopedic content must be written from a neutral point of view, representing fairly, and as far as possible without bias, all significant views that have been published by reliable sources. This is

1238:

I am curious: Are there any other Knowledge editors out there who see "actions" and "political positions" as completely divorced from each other? If Knowledge is dominated by people who take that position so strongly that they jump to quickly delete a well referenced contribution (within 5

1464:

a political issue, because they have been widely discussed in a political context, and Obama has been criticized both from the right and the left for his Guantanamo policies. Obama and his spokespeople have addressed the military tribunals on mulitple occasions. Has the president or any

938:

I agree that Obama has made a commitment to end the war in Iraq. But that is a political position of the future. No one knows the future. But we do know the past. The past shows us that he intends to punish conscientious objectors to that war until the date comes that he set for ending

929:

In fact, just four days after that Obama-governed military charged Cornell with desertion for refusing to fight in the war in Iraq, Obama made a speech about exactly that war, and said, “I want all of you to know that there is no higher honor or greater responsibility than serving as your

4656:

The Associated Press article mentions the DEA raiding medical marijuana growers in a state where medical marijuana is legal. Obama promised that he would stop these raids. This wikipedia article would be better if it was updated with the new information that Obama did not stop the raids.

441:

We all have our points of view, I'm pretty open about mine. We follow the rules and talk things out to come to the closest version of the verifiable truth we can cobble together. I'm not pretending to come at this issue without preconceptions but I think my requests were reasonable. -

473:“If we’re placing the burden on the doctor that says you have to keep alive even a previable child as long as possible and give them as much medical attention as – as is necessary to try and keep that child alive, then we’re probably crossing the line in terms of unconstitutionality.” 4738:

removed all the time from these summary articles, often on the theory that it is already well-treated in a more detailed article or that it is better to put the information somewhere else. The boundary for when an event or piece of news becomes a presidential policy is a fuzzy one. -

4348:

The section on medical marijuana in not supposed to be a puff piece to make Obama look good. Instead, it is supposed to accurately report his positions the issue - even the ones that might make him look bad. Without the bad stuff, the section is POV and looks like an advertisement.

804:

are POV for sure (arguing that Obama said X, "although he had been told" Y", especially when Y is a controversial economic claim. I continue to think the entire article is mis-focused, but getting into arguments and editorials against Obama's positions goes even farther afield.

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pretty easily: "President Obama, who had pledged to back off federal raids on medical marijuana users and sellers...despite some Drug Enforcement Agency raids that were conducted soon after Obama transitioned into office.". I assume more digging would yield more of the same. -

3015:

I'd have to say the only problem here is your own POV and how it seems you have issues separating your own bias from editing neutrally. NPOV does not mean we must go and counter every good thing with every bad thing. The one portion of NPOV you are forgetting is the issue of

3921:

The section on health care in not supposed to be a puff piece to make Obama look good. Instead, it is supposed to accurately report his positions the issue - even the ones that might make him look bad. Without the bad stuff, the section is POV and looks like an advertisement.

3162:

So clearly you do not dispute that the core of what I was saying is true. If I posted a link to a video where a person who introduced Sarah Palin at a rally criticized Obama for this issue, would that be sufficient evidence for you that Obama attracted controversy?

3341:

that it's "not a political position." Please explain why you do think it's a "political position" when Obama makes the claim of discrimination against employers, but it's "not a political position" when the exact same claim of discrimination is made against Obama.

3119:

It is a distorted factoid; the reference itself indicated that the matter was not important. Hallet87 has not been forthcoming with edit summaries or talk contributions, which is a bad sign. Let's wait till he digests the warnings you and wikidemon left for him.

4090:, which is very reliable. The quote is in the text of the Politico article, which is very reliable. The quote is one of Obama's political positions, and this wikipedia article is about his political positions, so the quote is relevant to this wikipedia article. 3409:

Once again you find a lone, minuscule, irrelevant and (of course) partisan voice that caterwauls about a perceived "controversy". Also once again, you do not have the slightest comprehension of ] if you think that that policy justifies adding this material.

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and arrested the owner. The Los Angeles County district attorney's office says drug task force agents served a state search warrant at the Organica Collective in Culver City, at the Overland Gardens Collective in West Los Angeles and at a home on Wednesday.

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consistency on wikipedia topics has always been a huge problem. for the love of god people, If the article of the president you hate isn't held to the same standard of the one you love and you don't fight to get them consistent then you are worthless as an

2584:

It's relevant that a U.S. House member who supported Obama's original statements has expressed concern over the ongoing raids, and gave Obama an official written request for him to clarify his position on the subject, so I have added this to the article.

3142:

Your post said the issue had "attracted some controversy" when it hadn't. In fact, a main point of the article you first cited was that the pay differential was a matter of title and seniority rather than sex discrimination, and that a representative of

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resulting revenue. When asked about whether it would be better to cut taxes in order to raise more revenue, he said that raising them on the upper income brackets was preferable anyway because it is more fair. Perhaps a subsection could be added for this.

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My point is that when a politician says he holds one position on an issue, and then acts the opposite way, the article on his political positions should cite both of those things. For the article to only cite what he says, and not what he does, violates

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That's a possibility - then one of the articles would be permanently stable, and one would grow, perhaps to split next year as you say. But it would mean two articles, both still very big. Let's see what other people think before we rush into this.

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regarding placing content on a page that the sources do not directly attribute to the subject of the article. There may be an article on the individual in question, in which case that would be the appropriate place to add content relating to the

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reports, "Last week, the Drug War Chronicle reports, the Drug Enforcement Administration made its first arrests related to medical marijuana since Attorney General Eric Holder promised not to prosecute people who are complying with state law."

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That some staffers who happen to be male make more money than staffers who happen to be female? No, that is not the dispute. The dispute is you giving spin to an issue and claiming controversy where there is none to be seen, which is called

2963:. On a final note: this dirt digging of yours Grundle2600 is getting a bit old. Every time you try to bring up some "new" piece of dirt on Obama, weakens your argument and causes us to ignore you more. Please take that as a helpful hint. 893:

relevant to an article about the political positions of Barack Obama? This user claims that it is since it happened during Obama's term of office. A rationale which I find to be a bit weak, as it simply isn't a political matter. Thoughts?

1217:. I suggest, that instead of arguing this issue, focus instead on the content and how to improve this specific article. If you feel that this issue/topic should be placed in Knowledge, then it should first be discussed at this talk page: 1831:

Please note that it's all from one source, so there is no synthesis. And also please note that Obama said "any of your taxes." Therefore, your claim that he was only talking about income taxes is exactly the opposite of what the source

2816:, in 2007, Obama said that his plan would eliminate private health insurance. In 2009, he said that his critics who claimed that his plan would eliminate private health insurance were wrong. This should be included in the article. 3034:

I'm asking for a few short quotes to be included in the article, not a 20 page essay. When a politician cites two opposing positions on an issue, the article should cite both. To cite one but not the other is a violation of NPOV.

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for the actions of an organization of which he is the head? What is the difference between “being responsible for the actions of your organization” and “holding the same position as your organization?” Not much, as far as I can

1443:(as opposed to a matter of military justice) and noted Obama's responsibility for it. As far as I can tell, the sources you provide do not treat this incident as a political matter, nor do they note Obama's responsibility. (The 180:

again reverts my edits and insists I take this to the talk page, so, if anyone could provide information as to which edits are incorrect/biased/unsubstantiated/otherwise controversial, it would be appreciated. Thanks. -- Brandon

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The information that Obama was given is relevant, because it shows that he's more interested in punishing success than he is in raising tax revenues. If he really wanted to raise tax revenues, he would cut the capital gains tax.

393:, a portion of the overall edit. I think we can do without overly-wordy "born alive after a failed attempt at an induced abortion", especially as the whole "born alive" phrasing is a particular POV of anti-abortionists. Also, " 4756:

I did look around before, albeit not for too long, for a better article, and this was as good as I saw, but I'm no expert in this wiki field, hence the request for suggestions of a better location if someone knows it exists.

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Maybe I missed one but the "raids" I checked don't make clear if the "inraided" ones where acting within the law or not. So unless this is cleared up there is no sense at all even discussing it. Did I miss something? Let me

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Breitbart is a legitimate source. The quotes are accurate - they even have a video of Obama saying it. They did not "cherry pick" anything. The information is relevant and well sourced, and should be included in the article.

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The answer strikes me as quite simple. Candidates and private citizens have political positions. Elected executives have policies. If we are only going to cover political positions here, then the article should be retitled

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Also, to add onto what wikidemon said: this discussion is veering off into personal debates over Obama, war, and deserters. Let me remind everyone that this talk page is not the place for these types of discussions per

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OK. It's been more than 10 says since I first made this suggestion, and no one has provided a reasonable explanation for why the article should not be updated with this new information, so I will add it to the article.

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Just because you agree, doesn't mean you should have reverted the edit. I'm putting it back where it was, and suggest that arguments be made about why the wording should be in or not, discussion, then edit as agreed..

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This is an article about Obama's political positions. The evidence from breitbart and politico shows that Obama said those exact words regarding a political position. Therefore, the statement should be in the article.

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So, would you say that the details of Obama's decision to draw down troops in Iraq to 50,000 should not be included here, and only his declared positions during the campaign regarding draw-downs should be included?

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made during his entire political career, including stuff while he was not holding public office" (my bolding). The current wording is biased, in that it fails to include the actions of Obama's administration.

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facilities that violate both state and federal law," he added. Miller said the new policy was a significant departure from the Bush administration, which went after dispensaries that did comply with state law.

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And certain contributors here feel very strongly that what is promised is all that matters. If you proceed in this fashion, you will likely face an edit war from those who will claim that you are engaging in

4722:(it was only by chance I came back to look at the article and noticed this dumping of valid content), I would like to see suggestoins of how it can be reworded, or an alternative location, for this line. 2901:

Sorry, still nope. Heck, if you actually read the article you would have read that article, you would have read that the statement is being called a misstatement and is actually refuting the statement.

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That's a really good idea. But do we need a section called "party platforms"? I mean platforms rarely conform to the positions of the presidential candidate, even incumbent candidates. I'm still open to

148:-- The second part of the sentence presents Obama's position as factual and undisputed, so I clarified that it had, indeed, been disputed, with a link to one such opinion which provided an explanation. 4305: 4013: 146:

Obama is reported to have opposed it because of technical language that might have interfered with a woman's right to choose and because Illinois law already required medical care in such situations.

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Newross, I asked you, twice so far, "Since you claim the quote was taken out of context, please explain what Obama meant when he said those words." Now this is the third time that I am asking you.

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But even this is an Obama administration U.S. Department of Justice policy—not a political position personally articulated by and sourced to Obama—and so, like Grundle2600 and Dr.enh's DEA raid

2332:(→Marijuana decriminalization and medical marijuana: Reason magazine claims that a news article in the San Francisco Chronicle proves that Obama has not kept his promise to stop the DEA raids) 347:

OK, it looks like this is back up for dispute again. Any reason that the introductory sentence is objectionable? I really don't see how the term "a woman's right to choose" isn't POV. -

2378:(→Marijuana decriminalization and medical marijuana: Maurice Hinchey (D-New York) asked Obama to clarify his statements, because the DEA conducted a raid after Obama said they would stop) 4596:

In this particular situation, I think using the word "however" is perfectly appropriate, because it contrasts a statement with an action that is the complete opposite of the statement:

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It should be included. Of course Obama's pay differential between women and men is "a matter of title and seniority rather than sex discrimination," as PhGustaf accurately claims. An

2423:(→Marijuana decriminalization and medical marijuana: remove misleading, out-of-context statement; restore statement of official policy; restore four of six references supplying context) 4573:

Medical marijuana is legal in California, and Obama's spokesperson said he would stop the DEA raids in states where it's legal. I wasn't aware that owning U.S. currency was a crime.

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Since the concern was that the source was not reliable, I added a brand new Accociated Press citation about a brand new, different DEA raid that names a brand new, different person.

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Thank you for you comments. It appears that you are saying that "actions" and "positions" are completely divorced from each other. On the other hand, I see them as one and the same.

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Fair enough. The current wording contains highly POV language and is not necessarily factual. The proposed change uses neutral terms and is factually accurate. Anyone object? -

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kb long. I propose that its three main sections be split off into Economic, Foreign and Social political positions of Barack Obama, with a precis of each left here. What say you?

834:

The purpose of this article is to describe Obama's political positions. Your opinion of those positions is irrelevant. This been explained to you dozens of times in the past. --

2075:

And it's perhaps unwise to approach wikipedia editing with a "plan". If your plan involves a return to your old posting modus, your return from your ban is likely to be short.

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The charge, conviction, and indeed the sentencing, of Clifford Cornell are a clarification of that statement. Clarification is what Knowledge is all about, as I understand it.

1256:

Please do not use this page to complain about other editors or the state of Knowledge. The talk page is for discussing within reason proposals for improving the article. See

4474:, which says, ""All Knowledge articles and other encyclopedic content must be written from a neutral point of view, representing fairly, and as far as possible without bias, 4419:

stop the raids, but his true position is that he is still continuing them. If he truly wanted to stop them, he would have issued a simple one page executive order to do so.

3877:"In March 2007, Obama said, "I don’t think we’re going to be able to eliminate employer coverage immediately. There’s going to be, potentially, some transition process..." " 4878:

It's not clear from the first paragraph on affirmative action whether Obama supports or opposes it, or whether the "ballot initiatives" are pro or anti affirmative action.

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In March 2007, Obama said, "I don’t think we’re going to be able to eliminate employer coverage immediately. There’s going to be, potentially, some transition process..."

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Both the charge and the conviction of Clifford Cornell occurred over a month after Obama became Commander in Chief of the Military that did the charging and the convicting.

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Well, I am still slightly confused of what you are talking about, could you please clarify and elaborate a bit more of why you think this controversy should be included.

2358:(→Marijuana decriminalization and medical marijuana: I'm the one who created this section. Now I'm adding this new info for balance, to show that Obama has flip flopped.) 3237:. The fact that criticism is made, and that it is based on real facts, is not nearly enough to pass the hurdles of noteworthiness / relevance, neutral POV, and so on. 801:

It's all rather impertinent because it seems to concern early campaign era tax policy, which has little to do with what happens after he is elected. Also, these changes

4031:

During the 23-minute Obama question-and-answer session, one 2-minute answer by Obama was in response to a 1-minute question from Tumulty that referenced the bipartisan

2981:. Since he did say it at one time, and since it was quoted by politico, and since there is video evidence of it cited by breitbart, it should be added to this article. 4426:

states, "All Knowledge articles and other encyclopedic content must be written from a neutral point of view, representing fairly, and as far as possible without bias,

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the proposed new wording here. I also fully endorse the policy of seeking consensus for potentially-contentious changes on this talk page before implementing them. --

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I'm confused by this stance, Tarc. Hasn't it been agreed that a Political Positions article has nothing to do with actual actions of Pres Obama, and only to do with

930:

Commander-in-Chief.” By stating that, Obama was acknowledging his policy-making role in the military in the prominent second paragraph of that Iraq War speech. See

312:(unindent) The new wording is better, and I'm not sure how the prior stuff got in there. "maintain the middle ground"? Sorry, but that was a complete falsehood. — 1505:

Boyd Reimer is wrong, because he is ascribing a non-action as a policy position, even though Obama (to my knowledge) has never taken a position regarding deserters.

4390:

The person named in that source is different than the person named in my other source. That means I can put it in the article without it being a revert. Whoo hoo!

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reverted the edits in question, with "POV edit" given as reasoning. I contended they were all factual and consistent with NPOV policy, so I restored them. User

527:

How about Wikinews? In any case, it is not a political position so it doesn't belong here. In fact, this isn't even the right place to pose that question. --

4376:

from several agencies seized about 100 pounds of marijuana, about 200 live plants and about $ 100,000 in cash." Why should this not be cited in the article?

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Obama's stated policy: his administration will not enforce these laws. Obama's currect, actual policy: his administration is enforcing these laws. To quote

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week that such raids would not happen). Introducing the sentence with the word "however" is a clue that we're performing SYNTH and creating POV here. See

1534:

You say that “Obama (to my knowledge) has never taken a position regarding deserters” I should point out that Clifford Cornell was jailed for deserting a

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Has Obama articulated any positions, either in his statements or by actions? Or is he just paying respects and promising that it will be a priority? -

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I agree with you, FWIW, not because Gitmo has been discussed in a political context but because the actions of an executive are his political positions.

1435:

The question is not whether Obama has the authority to change the army's policies on conscientious objection and desertion. The question is whether any

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regarding the need in a summary article such as this to cover issues if at all only in proportion to their relative importance. Further, please review

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If an organization can jail someone for a year without the head of that organization having any control over that jailing, then that organization is,

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6. Clarified that he said he would support banning some late-term abortions, as long as the woman's mental and physical health were not in question.

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And sometimes a man is hired for a position instead of a woman. Does that automatically make it a sexist decision? No. Again, you appear to be

1608:

Clarification is one of the main functions of any encyclopaedia- especially clarification about the introductory paragraph of an entire article.

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02:00, 9 April 2009 (UTC) above on this talk page: the scope of this article is "Political positions of Barack Obama - for political statements

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If no one provides a reasonable explanation for why the article should not be updated with this new information, I will add it to the article.

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Breitbart and Politico are reliable sources, and anything that they cite, including the quote and video, are valid material for the article.

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on the White House "Health Insurance Reform Reality Check" webpage as an example of intentionally misleading, out-of-context disinformation.

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Structures where two alternatives are contrasted are more likely to have this problem than situations where the word is used to emphasize a

1507:

If he had taken a position, it is probably the opposite of pardoning them, since he is currently engaged in a GWB-like Surge in Afghanistan.

1465:

Administration representative addressed this specific case, or the issue of military desertion on the grounds of conscientious objection? —

333:

Alright then, with that in mind I'll revert to the newer wording. Sorry if I disrupted the vetting process for changes to the material. -

2117:

PhGustaf, if Obama expresses two differing positions on an issue, why do you think the article should only mention one and not the other?

4451:

Ok, What exactly is your point and your intention, as far as I'm concerned almost all politician's say one thing and do something else..

2750:

In May 2008, Obama campaign spokesperson Ben LaBolt said that Obama would end DEA raids on medical marijuana in states where it's legal.

1413:? The only reason I can think of is that it's Obama's "political position" to allow the USMJ to imprison conscientious objectors to the 4879: 4718:

for being 'an event, not a position'. Aside from the fact it pretty clearly sets out a political position, and the blatant disregard of

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I plan to fix this problem as a way to improve the article. The wikipedia policy that I just quoted says that this is "non-negotiable."

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Barack Obama has attracted some controversy for paying his male sentate staffers more than he paid the women on his senate staff.

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If no one provides a reasonable explanation for why the article should not include this information, I will add it to the article.

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If no one provides a reasonable explanation for why the article should not include this information, I will add it to the article.

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If no one provides a reasonable explanation for why the article should not include this information, I will add it to the article.

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Policy (ie “politics”) is carried out through actions. Therefore actions dictate what is, or isn’t, a “political (policy) matter.”

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Please notice that my contribution contains nothing about "liking" or "disliking" anyone. It is simply a contribution of facts.

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For those who claim that Reason magazine and the San Francisco Bay Times are not reliable sources, here are some more sources:

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On the contrary, you have not reasonably justified (or even explained) whatever it is you're seeking to add to the article. --

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Your anti-abortion push around the Knowledge is quite clear, going by your edit history. It isn't gonig to fly here, however.

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Yet Obama stated in his speech that he is proud to be the head of that organization....that is (logically) not in his control.

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should think the mere fact that his is the first administration to do such a thing is worth noting here, and perhaps even at

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It is a verifiable fact, from reliable sources, that Obama said those words. There's even a video of him saying those words.

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It looks like, in your never-ending quest to find defamatory material about Obama, you've confused him with Max Baucus. --

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You know full well that opinion articles are not reliable sources for anything other than the opinions of their author. --

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year for conscientiously objecting to a war which was a central issue in his election campaign of "political positions."

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I added the POV and Advertisement tags to the Health Care section because this paragraph was removed from that section:

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article. If I have a good point it will find it's way into the article by consensus with other editors. Get the "drift"?

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Newross, since you claim the quote was taken out of context, please explain what Obama meant when he said those words.

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that the quote was "ridiculously misleading." Loonymonkey, please explain how the quote is "ridiculously misleading."

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However, throughout the course of his candidacy, Obama has avoided labelling himself as either pro-life or pro-choice.

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House Panel Approves Hinchey Provision Requesting Clarification from Obama Administration on Medical Marijuana Policy

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House Panel Approves Hinchey Provision Requesting Clarification from Obama Administration on Medical Marijuana Policy

4284:"In August 2009, the DEA raided a medical marijuana grower in California, a state where medical marijuana is legal." 3064:

This discussion is continued in the section of this talk page titled, "Politico and Breitbart are reliable sources."

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does not seem like a terribly major change in the article, and I don't really see either version as an NPOV problem.

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I have opened a discussion for this article to be deleted at . Essentially, I think this topic should be handled at

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I see that someone has removed the tags. I thought that wasn't supposed to be done until the dispute was resolved.

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It has been a week, and Loonymonkey has not answered my question about how the quote is "ridiculously misleading."

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I see that someone has removed the tags. I thought that wasn't supposed to be done until the dispute was resolved.

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source that pointed out Obama's hypocrisy on the marijuana thing, so there was no need to use the word "however."

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when Associated Press quoted Obama's promise not to raise taxes on people making less than $ 250,000, it was the

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That first paragraph speaks of a policy which will “end the war in Iraq.” Clifford Cornell was a deserter from a

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Obama's widely reported on education policy regarding opportunity scholarships has been removed from the article

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Jerry picked snippets don't mean shit. (excuse my french but the latter is my favorite phrase). Are there any

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I made a few corrections and additions to the section, "Abortion and contraception," including the following:

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minutes--and in teams of three experienced editors), then perhaps I have placed false hopes in Knowledge.

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around here. And no, political opponent's stump speeches would not be worthy additions to the article.

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supported this point. There is no controversy involved that except that which you've created yourself.

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Thank you, Tarc, for initiating this discussion. I, too, would like some other opinions on this matter.

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Referring to opponents label "born alive" abortions: Could we add this statement Obama stated in 2001:

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In August 2009, the Obama administration committed $ 2 billion in loans to support offshore drilling.

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SHOCK UNCOVERED: Obama IN HIS OWN WORDS saying His Health Care Plan will ELIMINATE private insurance

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SHOCK UNCOVERED: Obama IN HIS OWN WORDS saying His Health Care Plan will ELIMINATE private insurance

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assertion, can you find a source to back that claim? I'll change the unchallenged language back. -

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Obama was the first co-sponsor of the Fair Elections Now Act when he was in the Illinois senate.

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No one has reasonably justified why the article should not be updated with the new information.

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accused Obama of hypocrisy for paying his female Sentate staffers less than his male staffers.

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website—featuring intentionally misleading, out-of-context quotes by Obama and others—is not a

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When a politician says he favors one side on an issue, and his behavior is the opposite, then

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I am saying that Obama should be held to the same standards that he holds everyone else to. I

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Tarc, wikipedia's NPOV policy is stated very clearly, and my understanding of it is accurate.

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Throughout much of the campaign, Obama had managed to maintain the middle ground on the issue.

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Grundle, you are under the impression that Obama himself ordered the raid, which is amusing.

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Obama has stated that if it were proven that vouchers worked, he would be in favor or them.

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No one has objected to my suggestion that the article be updated with the new information.

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This discussion is continued on the section of this talk page called, "Medical marijuana."

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link is dead, so I can't check that one.) But no matter how sound your logic may be, it's

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federal and local agents raided two medical marijuana dispensaries in the Los Angeles area

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I added the POV and advertising tags to this section because this part has been removed:

889:) appears to be ready and willing to edit war over it, let's get some more opinions. Is 632:

I don't understand why the line shoud be drawn on how "big" an issue is considered to be.

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In order to make it easier to refer to the facts, I have included my contribution below:

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BTW – I note that there is labeling going on here thus I want to be clear upfront I am

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Grundle, this whole section is about discussing your inclusion. You need consensus to

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On the chance that this does get put back in, I am suggesting it be changed to this:

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Seems very reasonable. The some might be needed to be directly attributed to avoid a

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http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/27/us/politics/27obama-text.html?_r=1&pagewanted=1

542: 528: 512:. Where in the encyclopedia would it be appropriate to include this notable content? 362: 313: 289: 4981:

U.S. Loan to Brazilian Oil Company Riles Conservatives in Favor of Offshore Drilling

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I'm with the anon on this one, terms like "a woman's right to choose" are loaded. -

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They aren't saying that he "doesn't believe it anymore" - they are saying that he

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meshed two different subjects here under the umbrella of "political positions." --

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can end a war and declare a clemency for deserters from that war, then, why can’t

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was shown to you earlier. We cannot take sources and apply our own distillation.

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http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=NmEzMTZmNTk5MDI0NTZmNjUwMjllN2ZlZTc0MWFmYzY

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If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the

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Although I disagree that "a woman's right to choose" is a loaded term, I fully

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contradict a previous statement that Obama had made on September 12, 2008, in

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article. Please note that it's all from one article, so there is no synthesis:

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the program for the next 12 years until those currently in it have graduated.

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I said the same thing in my comment above. I endorse your revised wording. --

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Please tell me what about the post you found to be distorting of the facts.

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even though your actions don’t reflect my position.” Does that sound right?

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where it is more appropriate then here in the political positions article.

997: 895: 766: 428: 399: 224: 1308:, "out of control." (ie out of the control of its head) This is pure logic. 5005:

Obama Explains How His Health Care Plan Will ‘Eliminate’ Private Insurance

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And so is the video of Obama that is linked to from one of those sources.

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That's why I think the article should cite their words and their actions.

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An editor can't say "2 + 2 = 4". He needs a reliable source for the "4".

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of the 23-minute Obama question-and-answer session at the March 24, 2007

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this is is just going to run on and on in endless frustration. Look at

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There seems to be some quick editing on this - latest version is here.

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Obama put forward his health care reform plan on May 29, 2007 at the

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Drug Enforcement Administration spokesman Jose Martinez says agents

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The criticisms of my edit are flawed readings of Knowledge policy.

959:“dumb” in the present—as opposed to “dumb” only after Aug 31, 2010. 642:

Poltical Positions of Barack Obama in the 2008 Presidental Election

637:"what is the difference between a POLITICAL POSITION and a POLICY?" 4639:

add something. The CBS News article mentions nothing about Obama (

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Obama announced his candidacy on February 10, 2007 and nine weeks

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policy-setting, and therefore they establish a political position.

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that had been introduced nine weeks earlier on January 18, 2007.

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be explicitly laid out. Also, the dead link should be removed.

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Protip; whenever you begin to formulate an addition of the form

155:-- Opinion-based term; replaced with "abortion's legal status." 4969:

How Team Obama Pays Women: Pay equity for thee, but not for me.

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non-negotiable and expected of all articles and all editors."

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it's very relevant, so it should be included in the article.

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http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=88988093

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As an alternative to these edits by Grundle2600 and Dr.enh:

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http://www.ilga.gov/senate/transcripts/strans92/ST033001.pdf

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It appears to be the latter, which is why I removed it. --

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unless a reliable third party has made the same connection.

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By contrast, the military tribunals at Guantanamo Bay are

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I put the quote back in. Then Loonymonkey erased it, and

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source as to the matter; their bias is abundantly clear.

123:-- Removed this sentence; it is factually incorrect. See 3289:

the very week you come off a three-month Obama topic ban

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Therefore, I propose that this be added to the article:

704:. I'll settle for whichever is more likely to happen. -- 4971:, by Deroy Murdock, National Review, September 12, 2008 4874:

First paragraph on Affirmative action should be clearer

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A Pam Key NakedEmperorNews.com video does not become a

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A Pam Key NakedEmperorNews.com video does not become a

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A Pam Key NakedEmperorNews.com video does not become a

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your personal pledge not to edit Obama-related articles

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On November 5 2009, Obama hosted the inaugural annual

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in 2004. And I don't love McCain either - I voted for

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you post shouldn't be mistaken for a green light. --

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So, how do you suppose the (apparently aptly named)

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approved a provision written by U.S. Representative

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approved a provision written by U.S. Representative

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Evaluation of the DC Opportunity Scholarship Program

1568:Would anyone go so far as to say that Obama is not 5041:First DEA Medical Marijuana Arrests by Obama Admin 5029:DEA Arrests Medical Marijuana Grower in California 3206:you cite is an OpEd, which does not qualify as as 3083:Paying females staffers less than males assertion. 1374:not supported by the sources though, which is why 2641:? You bring up a good point with the George Bush 1154:"U.S. war deserter, who lived in B.C., sentenced" 1057:"U.S. war deserter, who lived in B.C., sentenced" 781:Projected tax revenues from Obama's tax increases 4934:Promises, Promises: Obama tax pledge up in smoke 3202:a "controversy" where there is none to be had. 2053:Again, a fundamentally flawed interpretation of 141:after a failed attempt at an induced abortion." 133:-- Removed this sentence; violates NPOV policy. 85:Opening Discussion on this Article to be Deleted 4482:and expected of all articles and all editors." 4434:and expected of all articles and all editors." 3642:It says that Obama supports Baucus's proposal. 138:Obama opposed the Induced Infant Liability Act. 4478:that have been published by reliable sources. 4430:that have been published by reliable sources. 3980:At the March 24, 2007 presidential candidates 3583:Obama wants to raise taxes on the middle class 3305:reinstatement of your political article ban. 2619:to...pretty much everything you've done here. 253:As a process matter, indeed so. Although this 1419:http://www.letthemstay.ca/michael_shaffer.htm 1113:. The Associated Press (also Sun News Canada) 270:So would you support the proposed changes? - 8: 5055:, Accosiated Press/CBS News, August 13, 2009 3737:Politico and Breitbart are reliable sources. 2959:president. We are also not here to publish 2479:WP:AVOID#However, although, whereas, despite 2288:WP:AVOID#However, although, whereas, despite 648:utterly redundant and should be excised, or 635:I think the disagreement here comes down to 5053:Feds Raid Two Los Angeles Pot Dispensaries 5043:, San Francisco Bay Times, August 27, 2009 4270:The following discussion has been closed. 4258: 3752:The following discussion has been closed. 3740: 3598:The following discussion has been closed. 3586: 3441:The following discussion has been closed. 3429: 2801:The following discussion has been closed. 2789: 2721:The following discussion has been closed. 2709: 2451:, does not really belong in this article. 2271:The following discussion has been closed. 2262: 2201:The following discussion has been closed. 2189: 2010:The following discussion has been closed. 1998: 169:, consistent with his pro-choice policy. 125:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3_mqxFmPlU 4707:, meeting delegates from each one of the 3801:features it on his Breitbart.com website. 914:The root word of “political” is “policy.” 4715:It was summarily removed by Loonymonkey 3505:OK. That's an excellent point. However, 2427:On March 26, 2009, Obama administration 1521:Thank you for your comments, Manawyddan. 620:All positions in politics are partisan. 18:Talk:Political positions of Barack Obama 4914: 1012: 4169:The end. This discussion in finished. 4137:if you want to understand the context. 4016:who answered questions from moderator 2469:"However" is appropriate and not POV. 1182: 1171: 1135: 1124: 1085: 1074: 1032:Obama Vouches Only for Teachers Unions 988:During the first few months Obama was 871:Insistence on a story about a deserter 761:, you've washed ashore on the Isle of 91:Barak Obama Presidential Campaign 2008 44:Do not edit the contents of this page. 4705:White House Tribal Nations Conference 2643:Political positions of George W. Bush 2616:Political positions of George W. Bush 2186:Reason magazine is a reliable source. 1692:Political positions of George W. Bush 1020:Obama Open to Private School Vouchers 7: 1160:, Nanaimo Daily News. April 28, 2009 1063:, Nanaimo Daily News. April 28, 2009 700:, although I was enthusiastic about 3833:White House Office of Health Reform 3355:This is how the original appeared: 2500:in my contritution. I did not say, 1772:Political positions of Barack Obama 5066:"Obama pledge to Native Americans" 5031:, Reason magazine, August 28, 2009 4014:Democratic presidential candidates 3827:reports that it has been cited by 3461:to support offshore oil drilling. 3459:has committed $ 2 billion in loans 1181:Cite has empty unknown parameter: 1134:Cite has empty unknown parameter: 1084:Cite has empty unknown parameter: 891:a story about an Iraq War deserter 24: 4936:, Associated Press, April 1, 2009 3835:director of communications) in a 1910:I don't "love" Bush. I voted for 1804:And this is what I wanted in the 97:(section Political Positions). -- 4699:I recently added the following: 4695:View/actions on Native Americans 2979:never said it in the first place 1770:This is what I had added to the 29: 4900:Sure this is worth a mention?-- 3998:University of Nevada, Las Vegas 3364:Conservative opinion columnist 2752:Source: San Francisco Chronicle 2266:Close as stale (4+ months old) 2022:Knowledge:Neutral point of view 1219:talk:Presidency of Barack Obama 5017:Barack Obama vs. Drudge Report 4993:Barack Obama vs. Drudge Report 4569:23:54, 27 September 2009 (UTC) 4554:23:47, 27 September 2009 (UTC) 4527:22:55, 27 September 2009 (UTC) 4514:22:21, 27 September 2009 (UTC) 4492:22:06, 27 September 2009 (UTC) 4461:21:33, 27 September 2009 (UTC) 4446:21:23, 27 September 2009 (UTC) 4414:14:25, 27 September 2009 (UTC) 4400:14:13, 27 September 2009 (UTC) 4386:14:10, 27 September 2009 (UTC) 4359:13:52, 27 September 2009 (UTC) 4344:13:49, 27 September 2009 (UTC) 4330:13:48, 27 September 2009 (UTC) 4296:13:22, 27 September 2009 (UTC) 3932:13:53, 27 September 2009 (UTC) 3917:13:49, 27 September 2009 (UTC) 3903:13:26, 27 September 2009 (UTC) 3889:13:25, 27 September 2009 (UTC) 3867:13:14, 27 September 2009 (UTC) 3853:21:42, 26 September 2009 (UTC) 3773:15:41, 26 September 2009 (UTC) 3652:14:03, 23 September 2009 (UTC) 3638:02:05, 22 September 2009 (UTC) 3623:22:31, 21 September 2009 (UTC) 3519:14:06, 23 September 2009 (UTC) 3493:02:21, 22 September 2009 (UTC) 3471:22:40, 21 September 2009 (UTC) 3247:23:56, 28 September 2009 (UTC) 3220:23:10, 28 September 2009 (UTC) 3185:22:09, 28 September 2009 (UTC) 3157:21:21, 28 September 2009 (UTC) 3130:18:19, 28 September 2009 (UTC) 3114:16:52, 28 September 2009 (UTC) 3045:14:13, 23 September 2009 (UTC) 2590:House Appropriations Committee 2249:22:25, 26 September 2009 (UTC) 2234:15:38, 26 September 2009 (UTC) 2168:12:29, 24 September 2009 (UTC) 2154:00:13, 24 September 2009 (UTC) 2127:22:11, 23 September 2009 (UTC) 2105:22:11, 23 September 2009 (UTC) 2085:20:12, 23 September 2009 (UTC) 2067:18:50, 23 September 2009 (UTC) 2048:17:17, 23 September 2009 (UTC) 1932:14:10, 23 September 2009 (UTC) 1785:House Appropriations Committee 1034:, Human Events, March 23, 2009 1022:, nysun.com, February 15, 2008 112:Various abortion-related edits 1: 4910:21:19, 16 February 2010 (UTC) 4888:19:14, 18 November 2009 (UTC) 4854:21:43, 13 November 2009 (UTC) 4840:18:55, 13 November 2009 (UTC) 4826:15:54, 13 November 2009 (UTC) 4809:00:02, 13 November 2009 (UTC) 4790:22:31, 12 November 2009 (UTC) 4767:20:56, 10 November 2009 (UTC) 4748:20:40, 10 November 2009 (UTC) 4732:18:35, 10 November 2009 (UTC) 1460:a matter of military justice 780: 161:7. Cited his endorsements by 4681:21:28, 12 October 2009 (UTC) 4561:The Magnificent Clean-keeper 4546:The Magnificent Clean-keeper 4245:21:16, 12 October 2009 (UTC) 3986:Center for American Progress 3696:The Magnificent Clean-keeper 3571:00:44, 13 October 2009 (UTC) 3557:21:31, 12 October 2009 (UTC) 3483:rates as a reliable source? 2837:The Magnificent Clean-keeper 2298:) 19:19, 16 June 2009 (UTC) 1995:This article is unbalanced. 1109:Bynum, Russ (Feb 26, 2009). 174:The Magnificent Clean-keeper 5007:, Breitbart, August 3, 2009 4983:, Fox News, August 20, 2009 4948:, enewspf.com, June 9, 2009 4924:, enewspf.com, June 9, 2009 4893:Public funding of elections 4709:federally recognized tribes 4667:20:57, 1 October 2009 (UTC) 4652:13:50, 1 October 2009 (UTC) 4626:11:16, 1 October 2009 (UTC) 4612:11:03, 1 October 2009 (UTC) 4583:08:01, 1 October 2009 (UTC) 4230:23:12, 5 October 2009 (UTC) 4212:22:05, 5 October 2009 (UTC) 4194:22:51, 1 October 2009 (UTC) 4179:21:29, 1 October 2009 (UTC) 4117:20:53, 1 October 2009 (UTC) 4078:20:17, 1 October 2009 (UTC) 3975:11:16, 1 October 2009 (UTC) 3961:11:06, 1 October 2009 (UTC) 3947:08:58, 1 October 2009 (UTC) 3725:03:06, 6 October 2009 (UTC) 3704:23:46, 5 October 2009 (UTC) 3685:23:28, 5 October 2009 (UTC) 3669:11:12, 1 October 2009 (UTC) 3542:11:11, 1 October 2009 (UTC) 3420:21:16, 1 October 2009 (UTC) 3404:11:20, 1 October 2009 (UTC) 3380:10:57, 1 October 2009 (UTC) 3351:08:48, 1 October 2009 (UTC) 3333:20:25, 1 October 2009 (UTC) 3315:09:35, 1 October 2009 (UTC) 3291:—and do it concurrent with 3273:08:31, 1 October 2009 (UTC) 3074:11:24, 1 October 2009 (UTC) 2777:11:25, 1 October 2009 (UTC) 2763:16:10, 30 August 2009 (UTC) 2746:06:03, 30 August 2009 (UTC) 2481:, bolding is mine.) Saying 1987:18:48, 18 August 2009 (UTC) 1972:18:38, 18 August 2009 (UTC) 1956:17:40, 18 August 2009 (UTC) 1914:for President in 2000, and 1905:23:21, 13 August 2009 (UTC) 653:through on his positions. 5093: 5019:, Politico, August 4, 2009 4995:, Politico, August 4, 2009 4797:Presidency of Barack Obama 3297:as a gesture of good faith 3030:22:16, 4 August 2009 (UTC) 3011:22:02, 4 August 2009 (UTC) 2991:21:49, 4 August 2009 (UTC) 2973:21:20, 4 August 2009 (UTC) 2938:20:47, 4 August 2009 (UTC) 2912:13:11, 4 August 2009 (UTC) 2889:12:59, 4 August 2009 (UTC) 2864:00:29, 4 August 2009 (UTC) 2845:23:19, 3 August 2009 (UTC) 2826:18:11, 3 August 2009 (UTC) 2682:actions as well as words. 2429:U.S. Department of Justice 1859:actions as well as words. 1806:Presidency of Barack Obama 541:Let me get this straight, 3509:has also reported on it. 3457:The Obama administration 3283:, and you need to get it 2692:22:12, 27 June 2009 (UTC) 2667:20:22, 22 June 2009 (UTC) 2629:13:51, 18 June 2009 (UTC) 2608:02:26, 18 June 2009 (UTC) 2577:06:22, 17 June 2009 (UTC) 2558:05:08, 17 June 2009 (UTC) 2542:04:13, 17 June 2009 (UTC) 2461:21:33, 16 June 2009 (UTC) 2308:19:13, 16 June 2009 (UTC) 1887:02:38, 30 July 2009 (UTC) 1869:22:12, 27 June 2009 (UTC) 1850:21:55, 27 June 2009 (UTC) 1747:18:10, 27 June 2009 (UTC) 1736:17:53, 27 June 2009 (UTC) 1720:15:45, 24 June 2009 (UTC) 1705:15:31, 24 June 2009 (UTC) 1672:20:01, 11 June 2009 (UTC) 1645:19:43, 11 June 2009 (UTC) 1618:19:33, 11 June 2009 (UTC) 1517:07:05, 11 June 2009 (UTC) 765:. Paddle away, quickly. 452:03:07, 4 April 2009 (UTC) 437:02:54, 4 April 2009 (UTC) 423:02:47, 4 April 2009 (UTC) 408:16:18, 3 April 2009 (UTC) 371:15:56, 3 April 2009 (UTC) 357:14:49, 3 April 2009 (UTC) 343:00:47, 3 April 2009 (UTC) 329:16:15, 2 April 2009 (UTC) 298:11:25, 2 April 2009 (UTC) 280:07:01, 2 April 2009 (UTC) 266:05:49, 2 April 2009 (UTC) 249:05:39, 2 April 2009 (UTC) 235:05:10, 2 April 2009 (UTC) 213:04:05, 2 April 2009 (UTC) 197:03:48, 2 April 2009 (UTC) 4559:comment and point above. 4273:Please do not modify it. 4012:—Obama was one of seven 3755:Please do not modify it. 3609:The New York Times just 3601:Please do not modify it. 3444:Please do not modify it. 2804:Please do not modify it. 2724:Please do not modify it. 2639:declarations of position 2274:Please do not modify it. 2204:Please do not modify it. 2013:Please do not modify it. 1942:This article is now 160 1481:17:35, 9 June 2009 (UTC) 1439:have treated this issue 1430:15:14, 9 June 2009 (UTC) 1388:12:18, 9 June 2009 (UTC) 1369:12:07, 9 June 2009 (UTC) 1280:21:26, 8 June 2009 (UTC) 1252:21:19, 8 June 2009 (UTC) 1231:20:43, 8 June 2009 (UTC) 1208:20:41, 8 June 2009 (UTC) 977:20:31, 8 June 2009 (UTC) 904:19:11, 8 June 2009 (UTC) 859:04:24, 7 June 2009 (UTC) 844:19:30, 5 June 2009 (UTC) 830:18:18, 5 June 2009 (UTC) 815:17:37, 5 June 2009 (UTC) 796:16:50, 5 June 2009 (UTC) 775:19:32, 21 May 2009 (UTC) 752:19:16, 21 May 2009 (UTC) 500:02:34, 22 May 2009 (UTC) 163:NARAL Pro-Choice America 107:19:59, 12 May 2009 (UTC) 4068:do you not understand? 714:01:02, 9 May 2009 (UTC) 691:18:31, 8 May 2009 (UTC) 674:13:59, 8 May 2009 (UTC) 613:06:57, 8 May 2009 (UTC) 596:04:24, 8 May 2009 (UTC) 570:22:51, 7 May 2009 (UTC) 555:22:46, 7 May 2009 (UTC) 537:21:09, 7 May 2009 (UTC) 522:20:54, 7 May 2009 (UTC) 153:woman's right to choose 5068:. BBC News. 2009-11-05 4713: 4480:This is non-negotiable 4432:This is non-negotiable 4159: 4067: 2442: 994:United States Military 475: 4701: 4476:all significant views 4428:all significant views 4143: 4041: 2588:On June 9, 2009, the 2520:cited. No synthesis. 2512:(not cited). I said, 2493:are notable changes. 2425: 1783:On June 9, 2009, the 1441:as a political matter 471: 42:of past discussions. 4147:NakedEmperorNews.com 4045:NakedEmperorNews.com 3984:co-sponsored by the 3784:NakedEmperorNews.com 3228:This all looks like 1820:Dover, New Hampshire 505:Removed from article 3823:when Matt Allen at 3812:features it on his 2508:(cited), therefore 2408:19:25, 16 June 2009 2383:18:41, 16 June 2009 2363:04:05, 16 June 2009 2343:01:37, 16 June 2009 1695:preferred position? 681:can confuse them. 625:www.barackobama.com 389:What I removed was 4635:something, not to 4318:stopthedrugwar.org 4162:WP:Reliable source 4125:You can watch the 4033:Wyden-Bennett bill 4010:University of Iowa 3782:by Pam Key on her 2489:, and then saying 2317:19:13, 10 May 2009 1449:original synthesis 990:Commander in Chief 227: 167:Planned Parenthood 4692: 4691: 4367:, "Officials say 4363:Associated Press 4306:Los Angeles Times 4255:Medical marijuana 4252: 4251: 4135:health care forum 4026:and the audience. 3982:health care forum 3734: 3733: 3580: 3579: 3087:Input desired on 3080: 3079: 2783: 2782: 2703: 2702: 2670: 2653:comment added by 2256: 2255: 2183: 2182: 1793:medical marijuana 1479: 1213:these issues per 677: 660:comment added by 599: 582:comment added by 233: 223: 187:comment added by 93:or possibly at a 82: 81: 54: 53: 48:current talk page 5084: 5077: 5076: 5074: 5073: 5062: 5056: 5050: 5044: 5038: 5032: 5026: 5020: 5014: 5008: 5002: 4996: 4990: 4984: 4978: 4972: 4966: 4960: 4955: 4949: 4943: 4937: 4931: 4925: 4919: 4648: 4523: 4310:Lake County News 4302:Associated Press 4275: 4259: 3814:DrudgeReport.com 3799:Andrew Breitbart 3757: 3741: 3603: 3587: 3446: 3430: 2806: 2790: 2726: 2710: 2706:Another DEA raid 2669: 2647: 2276: 2263: 2206: 2190: 2015: 1999: 1916:Michael Badnarik 1686:When Is It SYNTH 1469: 1437:reliable sources 1191: 1190: 1184: 1179: 1177: 1169: 1167: 1165: 1158:Montreal Gazette 1150: 1144: 1143: 1137: 1132: 1130: 1122: 1120: 1118: 1106: 1100: 1094: 1093: 1087: 1082: 1080: 1072: 1070: 1068: 1061:Montreal Gazette 1053: 1047: 1041: 1035: 1029: 1023: 1017: 676: 654: 598: 576: 326: 321: 316: 229: 199: 78: 56: 55: 33: 32: 26: 5092: 5091: 5087: 5086: 5085: 5083: 5082: 5081: 5080: 5071: 5069: 5064: 5063: 5059: 5051: 5047: 5039: 5035: 5027: 5023: 5015: 5011: 5003: 4999: 4991: 4987: 4979: 4975: 4967: 4963: 4956: 4952: 4944: 4940: 4932: 4928: 4920: 4916: 4895: 4876: 4697: 4646: 4521: 4271: 4257: 4160:which is not a 4142:Your source is: 3753: 3739: 3599: 3585: 3442: 3428: 3279:need an outlet 3208:reliable source 3085: 2802: 2788: 2733:Reason magazine 2722: 2708: 2648: 2594:Maurice Hinchey 2404:I substituted: 2272: 2261: 2218:Reason magazine 2214:Chicago Tribune 2202: 2188: 2011: 1997: 1940: 1789:Maurice Hinchey 1688: 1411:President Obama 1194: 1180: 1170: 1163: 1161: 1152: 1151: 1147: 1133: 1123: 1116: 1114: 1108: 1107: 1103: 1097: 1083: 1073: 1066: 1064: 1055: 1054: 1050: 1042: 1038: 1030: 1026: 1018: 1014: 873: 783: 655: 577: 514:ChildofMidnight 507: 324: 319: 314: 182: 114: 87: 74: 30: 22: 21: 20: 12: 11: 5: 5090: 5088: 5079: 5078: 5057: 5045: 5033: 5021: 5009: 4997: 4985: 4973: 4961: 4950: 4938: 4926: 4913: 4894: 4891: 4875: 4872: 4871: 4870: 4869: 4868: 4867: 4866: 4865: 4864: 4863: 4862: 4861: 4860: 4859: 4858: 4857: 4856: 4772: 4771: 4770: 4769: 4751: 4750: 4696: 4693: 4690: 4689: 4688: 4687: 4686: 4685: 4684: 4683: 4594: 4593: 4592: 4591: 4590: 4589: 4588: 4587: 4586: 4585: 4556: 4534: 4533: 4532: 4531: 4530: 4529: 4516: 4497: 4496: 4495: 4494: 4464: 4463: 4277: 4276: 4267: 4266: 4256: 4253: 4250: 4249: 4248: 4247: 4199: 4198: 4197: 4196: 4166: 4165: 4139: 4138: 4122: 4121: 4120: 4119: 4103: 4102: 4101: 4100: 4094: 4093: 4092: 4091: 4081: 4080: 4037: 4036: 4028: 4027: 3872: 3871: 3870: 3869: 3842: 3841: 3840: 3829:Linda Douglass 3817: 3802: 3759: 3758: 3749: 3748: 3738: 3735: 3732: 3731: 3730: 3729: 3728: 3727: 3709: 3708: 3707: 3706: 3688: 3687: 3657: 3656: 3655: 3654: 3605: 3604: 3595: 3594: 3584: 3581: 3578: 3577: 3576: 3575: 3574: 3573: 3526: 3525: 3524: 3523: 3522: 3521: 3498: 3497: 3496: 3495: 3474: 3473: 3448: 3447: 3438: 3437: 3427: 3424: 3423: 3422: 3338: 3337: 3336: 3335: 3281:someplace else 3252: 3251: 3250: 3249: 3223: 3222: 3188: 3187: 3165:User:Hallett87 3160: 3159: 3137:User:hallett87 3133: 3132: 3084: 3081: 3078: 3077: 3062: 3061: 3060: 3059: 3058: 3057: 3056: 3055: 3054: 3053: 3052: 3051: 3050: 3049: 3048: 3047: 2998:Knowledge:NPOV 2993: 2947: 2946: 2945: 2944: 2943: 2942: 2941: 2940: 2919: 2918: 2917: 2916: 2915: 2914: 2894: 2893: 2892: 2891: 2869: 2868: 2867: 2866: 2848: 2847: 2808: 2807: 2798: 2797: 2787: 2784: 2781: 2780: 2728: 2727: 2718: 2717: 2707: 2704: 2701: 2700: 2699: 2698: 2697: 2696: 2695: 2694: 2674: 2673: 2672: 2671: 2632: 2631: 2582: 2581: 2580: 2579: 2473:notable change 2464: 2463: 2445: 2444: 2443: 2402: 2401: 2400: 2380: 2360: 2337: 2336: 2335: 2334: 2278: 2277: 2268: 2267: 2260: 2257: 2254: 2253: 2252: 2251: 2220:is one of the 2208: 2207: 2198: 2197: 2187: 2184: 2181: 2180: 2179: 2178: 2177: 2176: 2175: 2174: 2173: 2172: 2171: 2170: 2134: 2133: 2132: 2131: 2130: 2129: 2110: 2109: 2108: 2107: 2090: 2089: 2088: 2087: 2070: 2069: 2017: 2016: 2007: 2006: 1996: 1993: 1992: 1991: 1990: 1989: 1939: 1936: 1935: 1934: 1892: 1891: 1890: 1889: 1855: 1854: 1853: 1852: 1836: 1835: 1834: 1833: 1826: 1825: 1824: 1823: 1812: 1811: 1810: 1809: 1799: 1798: 1797: 1796: 1778: 1777: 1776: 1775: 1765: 1764: 1763: 1762: 1750: 1749: 1723: 1722: 1687: 1684: 1683: 1682: 1681: 1680: 1679: 1678: 1677: 1676: 1675: 1674: 1625: 1624: 1623: 1622: 1621: 1620: 1601: 1600: 1599: 1598: 1597: 1596: 1579: 1578: 1577: 1576: 1575: 1574: 1561: 1560: 1559: 1558: 1557: 1556: 1547: 1546: 1545: 1544: 1543: 1542: 1527: 1526: 1525: 1524: 1523: 1522: 1498: 1497: 1496: 1495: 1484: 1483: 1453: 1452: 1407:President Ford 1403: 1402: 1401: 1400: 1399: 1398: 1397: 1396: 1395: 1394: 1393: 1392: 1391: 1390: 1345: 1344: 1343: 1342: 1341: 1340: 1339: 1338: 1337: 1336: 1335: 1334: 1320: 1319: 1318: 1317: 1316: 1315: 1314: 1313: 1312: 1311: 1310: 1309: 1291: 1290: 1289: 1288: 1287: 1286: 1285: 1284: 1283: 1282: 1240: 1236: 1193: 1192: 1145: 1101: 1095: 1048: 1036: 1024: 1011: 1010: 1009: 1008: 1007: 1005: 986: 980: 979: 966: 961: 960: 955: 954: 950: 949: 941: 940: 935: 934: 926: 925: 921: 920: 916: 915: 911: 910: 872: 869: 868: 867: 866: 865: 864: 863: 862: 861: 782: 779: 778: 777: 731: 730: 729: 728: 727: 726: 725: 724: 723: 722: 721: 720: 719: 718: 717: 716: 633: 506: 503: 489: 481: 477: 467: 466: 465: 464: 463: 462: 461: 460: 459: 458: 457: 456: 455: 454: 380: 379: 378: 377: 376: 375: 374: 373: 310: 309: 308: 307: 306: 305: 304: 303: 302: 301: 300: 216: 215: 113: 110: 86: 83: 80: 79: 72: 67: 62: 52: 51: 34: 23: 15: 14: 13: 10: 9: 6: 4: 3: 2: 5089: 5067: 5061: 5058: 5054: 5049: 5046: 5042: 5037: 5034: 5030: 5025: 5022: 5018: 5013: 5010: 5006: 5001: 4998: 4994: 4989: 4986: 4982: 4977: 4974: 4970: 4965: 4962: 4959: 4954: 4951: 4947: 4942: 4939: 4935: 4930: 4927: 4923: 4918: 4915: 4912: 4911: 4907: 4903: 4899: 4892: 4890: 4889: 4885: 4881: 4880:12.165.250.13 4873: 4855: 4851: 4847: 4843: 4842: 4841: 4837: 4833: 4829: 4828: 4827: 4823: 4819: 4814: 4813: 4812: 4811: 4810: 4806: 4802: 4798: 4793: 4792: 4791: 4787: 4783: 4778: 4777: 4776: 4775: 4774: 4773: 4768: 4764: 4760: 4755: 4754: 4753: 4752: 4749: 4745: 4741: 4736: 4735: 4734: 4733: 4729: 4725: 4721: 4717: 4712: 4710: 4706: 4700: 4694: 4682: 4678: 4674: 4670: 4669: 4668: 4664: 4660: 4655: 4654: 4653: 4650: 4649: 4642: 4638: 4634: 4630: 4629: 4628: 4627: 4623: 4619: 4614: 4613: 4609: 4605: 4601: 4597: 4584: 4580: 4576: 4572: 4571: 4570: 4566: 4562: 4557: 4555: 4551: 4547: 4542: 4541: 4540: 4539: 4538: 4537: 4536: 4535: 4528: 4525: 4524: 4517: 4515: 4511: 4507: 4503: 4502: 4501: 4500: 4499: 4498: 4493: 4489: 4485: 4481: 4477: 4473: 4468: 4467: 4466: 4465: 4462: 4458: 4454: 4450: 4449: 4448: 4447: 4443: 4439: 4435: 4433: 4429: 4425: 4422:Furthermore, 4420: 4416: 4415: 4411: 4407: 4402: 4401: 4397: 4393: 4388: 4387: 4383: 4379: 4375: 4370: 4366: 4361: 4360: 4356: 4352: 4346: 4345: 4341: 4337: 4332: 4331: 4327: 4323: 4319: 4315: 4311: 4307: 4303: 4298: 4297: 4293: 4289: 4285: 4282: 4279: 4278: 4274: 4269: 4268: 4265: 4261: 4260: 4254: 4246: 4242: 4238: 4234: 4233: 4232: 4231: 4227: 4223: 4219: 4214: 4213: 4209: 4205: 4195: 4191: 4187: 4182: 4181: 4180: 4176: 4172: 4168: 4167: 4163: 4158: 4156: 4152: 4148: 4141: 4140: 4136: 4132: 4129:and read the 4128: 4124: 4123: 4118: 4114: 4110: 4107: 4106: 4105: 4104: 4098: 4097: 4096: 4095: 4089: 4086:My source is 4085: 4084: 4083: 4082: 4079: 4075: 4071: 4066: 4064: 4060: 4059: 4054: 4050: 4046: 4040:What part of: 4039: 4038: 4034: 4030: 4029: 4025: 4024: 4019: 4018:Karen Tumulty 4015: 4011: 4007: 4003: 3999: 3995: 3991: 3987: 3983: 3979: 3978: 3977: 3976: 3972: 3968: 3963: 3962: 3958: 3954: 3949: 3948: 3944: 3940: 3934: 3933: 3929: 3925: 3919: 3918: 3914: 3910: 3905: 3904: 3900: 3896: 3891: 3890: 3886: 3882: 3878: 3875: 3868: 3864: 3860: 3856: 3855: 3854: 3850: 3846: 3843: 3838: 3834: 3830: 3826: 3822: 3818: 3815: 3811: 3807: 3803: 3800: 3796: 3792: 3791: 3789: 3785: 3781: 3777: 3776: 3775: 3774: 3770: 3766: 3761: 3760: 3756: 3751: 3750: 3747: 3743: 3742: 3736: 3726: 3722: 3718: 3713: 3712: 3711: 3710: 3705: 3701: 3697: 3692: 3691: 3690: 3689: 3686: 3682: 3678: 3673: 3672: 3671: 3670: 3666: 3662: 3653: 3649: 3645: 3641: 3640: 3639: 3635: 3631: 3627: 3626: 3625: 3624: 3620: 3616: 3612: 3607: 3606: 3602: 3597: 3596: 3593: 3589: 3588: 3582: 3572: 3568: 3564: 3560: 3559: 3558: 3554: 3550: 3546: 3545: 3544: 3543: 3539: 3535: 3529: 3520: 3516: 3512: 3508: 3504: 3503: 3502: 3501: 3500: 3499: 3494: 3490: 3486: 3482: 3478: 3477: 3476: 3475: 3472: 3468: 3464: 3460: 3456: 3455: 3454: 3450: 3449: 3445: 3440: 3439: 3436: 3432: 3431: 3425: 3421: 3417: 3413: 3408: 3407: 3406: 3405: 3401: 3397: 3393: 3390: 3385: 3382: 3381: 3377: 3373: 3369: 3367: 3366:Deroy Murdock 3362: 3359: 3356: 3353: 3352: 3348: 3344: 3334: 3330: 3326: 3322: 3318: 3317: 3316: 3312: 3308: 3304: 3299: 3298: 3294: 3290: 3286: 3282: 3277: 3276: 3275: 3274: 3270: 3266: 3262: 3257: 3248: 3244: 3240: 3236: 3231: 3227: 3226: 3225: 3224: 3221: 3217: 3213: 3209: 3205: 3201: 3197: 3196: 3195: 3194: 3186: 3182: 3178: 3174: 3169: 3168: 3167: 3166: 3158: 3154: 3150: 3146: 3141: 3140: 3139: 3138: 3131: 3127: 3123: 3118: 3117: 3116: 3115: 3111: 3107: 3103: 3100: 3097: 3094: 3090: 3082: 3076: 3075: 3071: 3067: 3046: 3042: 3038: 3033: 3032: 3031: 3027: 3023: 3019: 3014: 3013: 3012: 3008: 3004: 2999: 2994: 2992: 2988: 2984: 2980: 2976: 2975: 2974: 2970: 2966: 2962: 2957: 2956: 2955: 2954: 2953: 2952: 2951: 2950: 2949: 2948: 2939: 2935: 2931: 2927: 2926: 2925: 2924: 2923: 2922: 2921: 2920: 2913: 2909: 2905: 2900: 2899: 2898: 2897: 2896: 2895: 2890: 2886: 2882: 2877: 2874:Politico has 2873: 2872: 2871: 2870: 2865: 2861: 2857: 2852: 2851: 2850: 2849: 2846: 2842: 2838: 2834: 2830: 2829: 2828: 2827: 2823: 2819: 2815: 2812:According to 2810: 2809: 2805: 2800: 2799: 2796: 2792: 2791: 2785: 2779: 2778: 2774: 2770: 2765: 2764: 2760: 2756: 2753: 2748: 2747: 2743: 2739: 2734: 2730: 2729: 2725: 2720: 2719: 2716: 2712: 2711: 2705: 2693: 2689: 2685: 2680: 2679: 2678: 2677: 2676: 2675: 2668: 2664: 2660: 2656: 2652: 2644: 2640: 2636: 2635: 2634: 2633: 2630: 2626: 2622: 2617: 2612: 2611: 2610: 2609: 2605: 2601: 2597: 2595: 2591: 2586: 2578: 2574: 2570: 2565: 2561: 2560: 2559: 2555: 2551: 2546: 2545: 2544: 2543: 2539: 2535: 2530: 2526: 2521: 2519: 2515: 2511: 2507: 2503: 2499: 2496:There was no 2494: 2492: 2488: 2485:, then doing 2484: 2480: 2476: 2474: 2467: 2462: 2458: 2454: 2450: 2446: 2441: 2440: 2438: 2436: 2434: 2430: 2424: 2420: 2416: 2412: 2409: 2406: 2405: 2403: 2399: 2395: 2391: 2387: 2384: 2381: 2379: 2375: 2371: 2367: 2364: 2361: 2359: 2355: 2351: 2347: 2344: 2341: 2340: 2339: 2338: 2333: 2329: 2325: 2321: 2318: 2315: 2314: 2312: 2311: 2310: 2309: 2305: 2301: 2297: 2293: 2289: 2284: 2280: 2279: 2275: 2270: 2269: 2265: 2264: 2258: 2250: 2246: 2242: 2238: 2237: 2236: 2235: 2231: 2227: 2223: 2219: 2215: 2210: 2209: 2205: 2200: 2199: 2196: 2192: 2191: 2185: 2169: 2165: 2161: 2157: 2156: 2155: 2151: 2147: 2142: 2141: 2140: 2139: 2138: 2137: 2136: 2135: 2128: 2124: 2120: 2116: 2115: 2114: 2113: 2112: 2111: 2106: 2102: 2098: 2094: 2093: 2092: 2091: 2086: 2082: 2078: 2074: 2073: 2072: 2071: 2068: 2064: 2060: 2056: 2052: 2051: 2050: 2049: 2045: 2041: 2037: 2034: 2030: 2028: 2023: 2019: 2018: 2014: 2009: 2008: 2005: 2001: 2000: 1994: 1988: 1984: 1980: 1975: 1974: 1973: 1969: 1965: 1960: 1959: 1958: 1957: 1953: 1949: 1945: 1937: 1933: 1929: 1925: 1921: 1917: 1913: 1909: 1908: 1907: 1906: 1902: 1898: 1888: 1884: 1880: 1876: 1872: 1871: 1870: 1866: 1862: 1857: 1856: 1851: 1847: 1843: 1840: 1839: 1838: 1837: 1830: 1829: 1828: 1827: 1821: 1816: 1815: 1814: 1813: 1807: 1803: 1802: 1801: 1800: 1794: 1790: 1786: 1782: 1781: 1780: 1779: 1773: 1769: 1768: 1767: 1766: 1759: 1754: 1753: 1752: 1751: 1748: 1745: 1740: 1739: 1738: 1737: 1733: 1729: 1721: 1717: 1713: 1709: 1708: 1707: 1706: 1702: 1698: 1693: 1685: 1673: 1669: 1665: 1661: 1657: 1653: 1648: 1647: 1646: 1642: 1638: 1633: 1632: 1631: 1630: 1629: 1628: 1627: 1626: 1619: 1615: 1611: 1607: 1606: 1605: 1604: 1603: 1602: 1594: 1590: 1585: 1584: 1583: 1582: 1581: 1580: 1571: 1567: 1566: 1565: 1564: 1563: 1562: 1553: 1552: 1551: 1550: 1549: 1548: 1541: 1537: 1533: 1532: 1531: 1530: 1529: 1528: 1520: 1519: 1518: 1514: 1510: 1506: 1502: 1501: 1500: 1499: 1493: 1488: 1487: 1486: 1485: 1482: 1477: 1473: 1468: 1463: 1459: 1455: 1454: 1450: 1446: 1442: 1438: 1434: 1433: 1432: 1431: 1427: 1423: 1420: 1416: 1412: 1408: 1389: 1385: 1381: 1377: 1372: 1371: 1370: 1366: 1362: 1357: 1356: 1355: 1354: 1353: 1352: 1351: 1350: 1349: 1348: 1347: 1346: 1332: 1331: 1330: 1329: 1328: 1327: 1326: 1325: 1324: 1323: 1322: 1321: 1307: 1306:by definition 1303: 1302: 1301: 1300: 1299: 1298: 1297: 1296: 1295: 1294: 1293: 1292: 1281: 1277: 1273: 1268: 1264: 1259: 1255: 1254: 1253: 1249: 1245: 1241: 1237: 1234: 1233: 1232: 1228: 1224: 1220: 1216: 1211: 1210: 1209: 1205: 1201: 1198: 1197: 1196: 1195: 1188: 1175: 1159: 1155: 1149: 1146: 1141: 1128: 1112: 1105: 1102: 1099: 1096: 1091: 1078: 1062: 1058: 1052: 1049: 1045: 1040: 1037: 1033: 1028: 1025: 1021: 1016: 1013: 1006: 1003: 999: 995: 991: 987: 984: 983: 982: 981: 978: 974: 970: 967: 963: 962: 957: 956: 952: 951: 948: 943: 942: 937: 936: 933: 928: 927: 923: 922: 918: 917: 913: 912: 908: 907: 906: 905: 901: 897: 892: 888: 885: 882: 878: 870: 860: 856: 852: 847: 846: 845: 841: 837: 833: 832: 831: 827: 823: 818: 817: 816: 812: 808: 803: 800: 799: 798: 797: 793: 789: 776: 772: 768: 764: 760: 756: 755: 754: 753: 749: 745: 741: 737: 734: 715: 711: 707: 703: 699: 694: 693: 692: 688: 684: 679: 678: 675: 671: 667: 663: 659: 651: 647: 643: 638: 634: 631: 626: 623: 619: 616: 615: 614: 610: 606: 601: 600: 597: 593: 589: 585: 581: 573: 572: 571: 567: 563: 558: 557: 556: 552: 548: 544: 540: 539: 538: 534: 530: 526: 525: 524: 523: 519: 515: 511: 504: 502: 501: 497: 493: 487: 482: 480: 474: 470: 453: 449: 445: 440: 439: 438: 434: 430: 426: 425: 424: 420: 416: 411: 410: 409: 405: 401: 396: 392: 388: 387: 386: 385: 384: 383: 382: 381: 372: 368: 364: 360: 359: 358: 354: 350: 346: 345: 344: 340: 336: 332: 331: 330: 327: 322: 317: 311: 299: 295: 291: 287: 283: 282: 281: 277: 273: 269: 268: 267: 263: 259: 255: 252: 251: 250: 246: 242: 238: 237: 236: 232: 226: 220: 219: 218: 217: 214: 210: 206: 202: 201: 200: 198: 194: 190: 189:71.196.97.194 186: 179: 175: 170: 168: 164: 159: 156: 154: 149: 147: 142: 139: 134: 132: 127: 126: 122: 117: 111: 109: 108: 104: 100: 96: 92: 84: 77: 73: 71: 68: 66: 63: 61: 58: 57: 49: 45: 41: 40: 35: 28: 27: 19: 5070:. Retrieved 5060: 5048: 5036: 5024: 5012: 5000: 4988: 4976: 4964: 4953: 4941: 4929: 4917: 4896: 4877: 4714: 4702: 4698: 4644: 4636: 4632: 4615: 4602: 4598: 4595: 4519: 4479: 4475: 4436: 4431: 4427: 4421: 4417: 4403: 4389: 4373: 4368: 4362: 4347: 4333: 4299: 4286: 4283: 4280: 4272: 4215: 4200: 4151:video mashup 4144: 4057: 4056: 4049:video mashup 4042: 4021: 4005: 4001: 3994:Cox Pavilion 3964: 3950: 3935: 3920: 3906: 3892: 3879: 3876: 3873: 3825:Politico.com 3762: 3754: 3658: 3608: 3600: 3530: 3527: 3480: 3451: 3443: 3394: 3386: 3383: 3370: 3363: 3360: 3357: 3354: 3339: 3302: 3296: 3295: 3288: 3284: 3280: 3253: 3189: 3161: 3134: 3095: 3086: 3063: 2978: 2811: 2803: 2766: 2749: 2731: 2723: 2638: 2598: 2587: 2583: 2548:synthesis. 2528: 2522: 2517: 2516:(cited) and 2513: 2509: 2505: 2504:(cited) and 2501: 2498:WP:SYNTHESIS 2495: 2490: 2486: 2482: 2472: 2470: 2468: 2465: 2449:WP:SYNTHESIS 2426: 2422: 2397: 2377: 2357: 2331: 2281: 2273: 2211: 2203: 2038: 2035: 2031: 2025: 2020: 2012: 1979:Totnesmartin 1948:Totnesmartin 1943: 1941: 1912:Harry Browne 1897:71.82.133.21 1893: 1874: 1758:same article 1757: 1724: 1689: 1588: 1569: 1535: 1504: 1461: 1457: 1445:Edmonton Sun 1444: 1440: 1404: 1305: 1162:. Retrieved 1148: 1115:. Retrieved 1104: 1098: 1065:. 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