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525:. There are several problems in the current title. One is that the disambiguator appears to be a redundant alternative title rather than a type classification or context clarifier. Another is the question mark indicating a lack of confidence about whether the painting's title should be "Self Portrait" or not (or whether the painting fits into the self-portraiture category or not). We shouldn't be using question marks this way. The use of title case and the lack of a hyphen in "Self Portrait" also seem questionable. See also the previous discussion of the title from 2011–2017 on the article talk page. —
603:. Note also that there is no clear evidence that the painting is a self-portrait – that is just the impression that some people have gotten by looking at the painting and trying to interpret the ambiguous text painted on its frame. As far as I know, there are no other paintings that used Van Eyck as the subject, no preserved descriptions of what he looked like, and no writings by those who knew him who said that he was the subject or even that he had painted any portrait of himself. —
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1171:"probably a self portrait" is a phrase in lowercase that does not include a question mark. That would be an improvement over the current "Self Portrait?" (with uppercase and a question mark). Mentioning van Eyck or the headpiece might be a further improvement, since there are probably at least ten thousand portraits of men that are probably self-portraits. —
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There's not disambiguating adequately and disambiguating so poorly that it's laughable! Be honest, if you saw a title like "Portrait of a Man (Self
Portrait?)", would you think "oh yes, that must be the Van Eyck self-portrait"? But if you saw "Portrait of a Man in a Red Turban" you might, if you knew
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Thousands of our paintings titles don't disambiguate adequately - the disambiguation rules don't allow them to. That applies just as much to the proposed titles. We wouldn't be allowed to add "van Eyck" or "National
Gallery" in the absence of other titles of the same form, despite there being two van
1012:
Great, let's just make up a title for one of the best-known paintings in
Western art! If you could be bothered to count the "countless publications and other presentations", you would find that pretty much all the high-quality ones are over 50 years old. "Turban" just doesn't work in 2024, though no
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p. 382 call it "A Man in a Red Turban, Probably a self-portrait". Note all these books are on my bookcases and I'm not finding viewable pages online, plus Ceoil gave
Campbell's title above. It's important to keep the "probably a self portrait" aspect of this for lots of reasons. Suggestions on how
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also includes (Self
Portrait?), though he does mention a turban but not the color. Will try to check other sources & add relevant page numbers when possible, but as JB mentions, there isn't a common name. What does seem to be common is that scholars believe it's a self portrait but it's an old
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I agree that dropping the question mark after the title is a better choice, also the brackets, which just make this title informal. We can think about putting those in the introduction in the article. The name that
National Gallery gives to the artwork also have a perspective thinking of attracting
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Sorry about the spelling error. I don't think any of the suggested article titles are "made-up titles" – as far as I know, they come from sources (except for parenthesized disambiguation terms, which are just context or category type descriptions that
Knowledge typically does not feel obliged to
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There are several "Portrait of a Man (Van Eyck)"s (including one hanging right next to this), but only one generally thought to be a self-portrait. This is also exactly what the label in the gallery says, so I don't know where the distinction between a "formal painting title" and a catalogue one
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Regarding the comment that "these are not titles", the word "title" in this discussion refers primarily to the title of a
Knowledge article, not the concept of a title of a painting. Although these would often be the same, a Knowledge article may, for example, contain a disambiguation term in
827:" in a comment below. It's true that I didn't put the effort into identifying specific sources, but I don't think there's any real question about whether 'turban' is found in sources – it clearly is. If preferred, however, a title that doesn't use 'turban' could be something like
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Which "external sources"? The article doesn't give any for "turban", except for Smart
History in EL, and you haven't given any, which you really need to do to support a move proposal. Also please give the VA project a notice of the proposal.
1109:'s big catalogue of 1998 uses it). I'm sure I'm not the only one. In fact "our titles are meant to disambiguate different things" is barely true at all; the rules explicitly don't allow useful disambiguation, with the results you see at eg
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Good point. I think his headcover was generally referred to as a "turban" up to about WW2, and costume history becoming more developed, since when "chaperon" has gradually taken over. I don't think "turban" is at all acceptable in 2024.
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The word 'turban' is coming from external sources, not from our own OR; no one is saying it's actually a turban. Unfortunately, we have not found sources calling it "Portrait of a Man in a Red
Chaperon with the Dangly Bits Folded In".
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For the moment, the National Gallery still uses this, and we should follow them. Where do these made-up titles come from? We should not be inventing titles. Along with others, they may well be used in various sources, but there is no
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doubt low-grade websites will go on using it for years to come, especially if Knowledge encouyrages them to persist in this cultural appropriation (which actually does get some Asian people rather cross, rightly or wrongly).
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Fair point, though I suggest we consider any alternatives (such as just dropping the question mark) as the question-mark is a headache for links from other websites and invariably ends up as a hex code to avoid URL errors.
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or the Arnolfini portrait. Yes, of course he painted men wearing chaperons - that was the fashion of his period. Note that technically these are not titles but identifiers for scholars, collectors, etc.
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I'm also very uncomfortable with the proposed lets "make up on the fly" a knowingly inaccurate title, because a fastidious we don't like the "?" in the official title. To my mind,
998:." It's hard to see the Gallery's funny parenthetical as part of a title, even if it's their catalog entry, and it's particularly jarring in the context of WP naming conventions.
746:. The current title is utterly meaningless. The National Gallery's title is merely a label on a painting. Our titles are meant to be a little more informative than that. --
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rather than this painting. I'm a bit surprised not to find more, since Van Eyck produced visually interesting work and the copyright rights are long expired. —
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painting and because there are no other images of Jan van Eyck there's no way of knowing - hence the question mark. Personally am opposed to confusing with the
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1267:) indicate it is variously named/described as: a portrait of a man in/with a turban by van Eyck (1433) and that it is probably a self-portrait. Alfred Acres
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at all! It's a chaperon, with the dangly bits folded in, presumably to stop getting paint on them (a pice of evidence to support "self-portrait").
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within an hour of this tag being placed. The discussion may be closed 7 days after being opened, if consensus has been reached (see the
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disambiguating anything? It could be applied to umpteen paintings. It's completely meaningless in the context of an article title. --
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name for this article, we should be guided by how it is named/described in sources (plural) in balance with the naming criteria at
1055:. What some contributors here seem to be forgetting is that our titles are meant to disambiguate different things. How on earth is
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something about art, at least have a clue what was being referred to. We're here to help our users, not to bamboozle them. --
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viewer. Following that "official" name is not a bad idea but it indeed makes this article weird, at least at the first sight.
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250:. The current title with a question-mark is based on the NG catalogue qualification rather than the formal painting title.
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513:(reverting to the title before an undiscussed move in 2007 suggesting a right to naming deriving from ownership) or
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parentheses that is not intended to be considered part of the title of the work discussed in the article. —
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Actually, that doesn't work for me, because I'm used to what has now been the NG's title for over 25 years (
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I remember seeing this painting used as an album cover back in the 1990s. Anyone else remember it?
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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p. 36 all use the parenthesis with the question mark, i.e. (self portrait?). In her monologue
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and he, like most other art historians in the last 30 years, uses the current article title.
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countless publications and other presentations have called it Man in a Red Turban
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the title assigned by the institution that's held the work for almost 200 years
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Eyck portraits of men in red "turbans", never mind plenty by other painters.
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Campbell p. 212 says it was sold at Christies in 1851 under the title
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In addition to what Johnbod and Ceoil have said, particularly
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which says "The National Gallery in London catalogs it as
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I found some mention of an association with Van Eyck for
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Portrait of a Man (Van Eyck possible self-portrait)
625:. Please alert the VA project. It's "chaperon" -
905:Portrait of a man (from the Arnolfini family?)
819:I note that Ham II also referenced a source (
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519:Portrait of a Man (possible self-portrait)
392:It has been proposed in this section that
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355:(1995). But those seem to be referencing
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956:Head of the Artist, in a Red Turban
246:I propose this article is moved to
38:It is of interest to the following
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992:Portrait of a Man (Self-Portrait?)
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543:. The current title is silly.
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510:Portrait of a Man in a Turban
211:and see a list of open tasks.
109:and see a list of open tasks.
877:(traditionally known as the
429:). Please base arguments on
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988:Jan van Eyck within His Art
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1203:. Firstly, I agree with
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887:on the website of the
881:, 1433; London, N.G.).
433:, and keep discussion
357:the Arnolfini portrait
342:(Ray Manzarek, 1983),
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875:Man in a Red Chaperon
1143:Till-Holger Borchert
675:Till-Holger Borchert
462:requested move/dated
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427:closing instructions
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704:BarrelProof
650:BarrelProof
605:BarrelProof
527:BarrelProof
483:direct move
475:current log
446:Please use
361:BarrelProof
214:Visual arts
205:visual arts
164:Visual arts
30:Start-class
1294:Categories
1271:observes:
1205:Necrothesp
1141:, p. 314,
1091:Necrothesp
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885:an article
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479:target log
298:HillmanHan
1211:and many
627:chaperone
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568:chaperone
466:directly.
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1159:Victoria
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1000:Dicklyon
722:Victoria
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595:chaperon
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435:succinct
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869:article
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558:Comment
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139:on the
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