Talk:Paul Whelan (security director)

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denied admission. Also visa requirements differ by passport. Gaining visa free access to just one other country with passport B not offered by passport A can pay for the cost and effort to get passport B. In addition there can be safety benefits to presenting a Canadian or Irish passport instead of an American passport in some places that are hostile to Americans. The speculation about his motives from an unnamed person appears way off base and maybe even harmful to the subject who is sitting in a Russian jail.

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Until Brexit, a British passport also meant a better immigration status in Europe, which is, I suspect, the reason for the Irish passport. You do usually need a grandparent but the Irish sometimes approve applications based on more distant ancestors on a case-by-case basis, I have been told. Bottom line, it's not that astonishing, even if it has managed to

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someone and not allow them the chance to argue it is false. Knowledge always insists on both sides of a conflict. So if you include the defamatory Russian-language source, you must also include Whelan's brother not only calling it a grotesque lie but mentioning that he personally tried to edit Knowledge to remove it.

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I don't think it is valid or useful to transliterate the Russian into English as 'Tramp.' Transliteration seeks to preserve sounds to aid in pronunciation across languages and alphabets. The Russian 'трамп,' therefore, would not be traded letter by letter as in 'Tramp,' but transliterated as 'Trump.'

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The fact that the CIA wouldn't recruit such a person doesn't bear much relevance to the charge - spying. Doesn't matter who for. Might not be government at all. It's plausible he might have been spying for purely corporate purposes - a computer security corporation could benefit greatly from having a

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Doesn't mean the same thing. Common sense is a rare thing these days.Former suggests he was a marine. His actions prove he was never a marine. Period.at least ex marine implies he was booted as he was. Your "former" suggest years of loyal service and an "HONORABLE DISCHARGE". Clearly your part of the

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You won't be aware, then, of right-wing Twitter, which is outraged that the US would prisoner trade for a Black queer athlete imprisoned by a racist, homophobic state on obviously trumped-up charges, rather than someone they call "a Marine who served our country", even though he was a grifter and has

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This Knowledge entry suggests there is a Kingsmead Arsenal retail location but there isn't one to the extent "retail location" means "storefront". The addresses listed for Paul's purported business are an apartment complex. I realize you may still refer to his apartment, to the extent there are any

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The footnote does seem to be poorly phrased. Took me a while to work out what exactly it's saying, and I still don't know why it's saying it. We already separately note that the tweet is misspelled -- 'Troomp' rather than 'Tramp', roughly I suppose -- I don't really see what this is adding. Maybe

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I think after an editor is aware of the vociferous claims of David Whelan, anyone who continues to publish this single obscure Russian-language source -- which could very well have gotten its facts wrong -- without allowing for the strenuous rebuttal by Paul's family -- is acting with actual malice.

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In addition to being a violation of wikipedia policy, I believe it is also a violation of law and would subject the editor to a libel lawsuit. Per the NYT v. Sullivan standard, it is libelous to publish untrue defamatory information with "actual malice", which is defined as publishing "with reckless

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Thanks for your help. The "dishonorable" was entirely my fault. I apologize – I should know better. And I knew the Buzzfile source was inadequate but expected it would be improved upon, but unfortunately it was so off target that it remained the one and only source. As for "solitary", those who want

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The news sources pulled his education and work history from a Jan 2013 court disposition - a primary source for what he claimed. Daily Mail says "He has a bachelor's degree in criminal justice and a master's in business administration, he said in a 2013 deposition for an age discrimination suit that

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It's not so much a requirement as it is that documenting a citizenship in that country avoids lots and lots of questions and paperwork and time. And nobody travels on a US passport if they have a choice in the matter. Canada and UK would also mean better visa possibilities in Commonwealth Countries.

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The Kingsmead Arsenal name is widely reported and displays on the ATF record, so I’ve included it. One problem a Knowledge editor faces is the need to be defensive and assume other editors will see the KA info missing and want to add it. Including KA as I have may prevent the return of the Buzzfile

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The information about Kingsmead Arsenal is unverified and, I believe, impossible to verify by anyone except Paul, who may have meant any online mentions of it as a joke. That is the family's perception. "Kingsmead" is the nickname my parents gave their farm house. Some news articles appear to be

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It is not "trouble" if you travel a lot - it is required. Generally any citizen of any country is expected/required to enter that country using a passport issued by that country. If he shows up at the Canadian border and presents an American passport he is committing an offence or at least could be

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There was an interview with some Canadians who became US Marines that was published in Maclean's magazine in 2004. In that article there is a Paul Whelan at al-Asad who was quoted. Is that the same guy? My cousin was the security escort for the reporter and she thinks it's the same guy, but he was

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Canada citizenship because born in Canada US citizenship likely because the family moved there UK parents gave him UK citizenship at birth Not totally clear where the Irish citizenship came from but it was not via marriage (never married) and nothing suggests he lived there so it most likely is by

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Per BLP, I think the likely defamation must be removed. But if some editor wants to keep it, I think you must let readers know that Whelan's family insists this claim of 80,000 dollars (as opposed to roubles) is libelous, as I've done in my current version. You cannot put in a vicious claim about

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Whelan claimed in a 2013 statement that he was a former sheriff's deputy in Washtenaw County and a policeman for the city of Chelsea. Washtenaw County told the Post that they had no record of Whelan's job, and Chelsea police records showed that he was working as a "part-time police officer," as a

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and acquainted with the family. Your other assertions aren’t quite serious. If Whalen were eligible for Irish citizenship through a grandparent but never requested the passport, would he be required to use an Irish passport to enter Ireland? And your assertions about passport requirements are, of

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A single Russian-language source MBK claims Whelan had 80,000 dollars on him, as opposed to 80,000 roubles ($ 1,147). Obviously if Paul Whelan had that much money on him, it would look suspicious. Paul says it was roubles. So does his brother David, who insists this single Russian publication is

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It is an affront to the Marine Corps and every honorably discharged Marine to show the photo of someone who was thrown out of the Corps with a Big Chicken Dinner (bad conduct discharge) in his Marine Corps uniform. He’s not a “former” Marine, he’s an “ex” Marine. I was married to a Marine for 15

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The subject was born in Canada = Canadian. His parents were UK citizens so he was also born UK. He was raised in the US which suggests the family immigrated when he was a child. No surprise he is an American. For a British person to get an Irish passport is easy. I'm failing to see what the

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But it's not being represented as a current photo -- and shouldn't be, clearly -- and the USMC doesn't require the destruction of all such photographs. It shouldn't be be used with undue prominence if there's a better alternative, but nor should we insist on Marine Core PoV editorially.

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to see if that would clarify, since one would think a business in Michigan (and, subject to taxes or licensing) would be in there, but the absence of a filing is still just pitted against the broader reporting. I suppose Paul can clear it up when he's home. Thanks for the explanation.

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The 2013 deposition top of page 7, contains the part about working in Chelsa and for the Washtenaw County Sheriff's Office exactly as the Daily Mail reported it and how I put it in the article. His marine service reported in the deposition is different from how we state it now.

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I put it in sourced to the Daily Mail when that was one of the only detailed sources. It may not be true, as often happens in cases like this where someome shoots from obscurity to the news worldwide. Do you a have a source saying the Department denied he worked there?

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recently summarized the rules very briefly: "Anybody in the world born to an Irish citizen is entitled to an Irish passport while those with grandparents born in Ireland also qualify. Britons living in Ireland can also qualify under residency rules."

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Despite the popular saying, "Once a Marine, always a Marine", "former Marine" is the appropriate way to refer to someone who is no longer a member of the Marine Corps and is not legally retired from the Marine Corps. The USMC Museum itself refers to

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Not sure why the Maclean's thing matters. First an editor would need to find the source, then decide if what is said matters in any way, and then if it is this Paul Whelan. Saying "was quoted" isn't enuf info to send this editor on that chase.

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I've used the Daily Mail to support some bio details because they currently have the most indepth coverage. They cite public records and I have no reason to doubt the info, but as better sources become available they should be substituted.

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But it is definitely unusual to collect 4 citizenships with passports. The Irish citizenship should probably be seen in light of Brexit, because it gives him the advantages that EU citizens have, which would have been lost through Brexit.

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He has multiple citizenships because of his birth situation and family move to the US. The passports are only a matter of filling out applications. It is not like baseball card collecting. We should definitely include his citizenships.

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It is very relevant; unless things have changed since I was last there, Russia doesn't charge corporate espionage cases as seriously. He got 16 years, do you really think he was charged with stealing secrets from their auto industry?

1926:). Therefore he was likely entitled to the Irish passport from birth. No evidence on how he got US citizenship (immigration or because a parent held it) but the other three are either definately or nearly definately gained at birth. 1969:. Why bother? One can acquire multiple passports just because one can — as the simply rivalry with his sister suggests — or because one anticipates needing consular services or because one enjoys playing identity games. So far the 1977:. The point made by the person who is quoted is that there’s nothing suspicious or nefarious about having four passports, which seems to be the point you are making when you say it’s easy to do. But only the quote addresses the 1835:

The fact that he has multiple passports has been widely noted. Therefore the fact that there is – at least according to one witness – an innocent explanation, seems worth including. And I put it in a note so as not to distract.

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which use unsubstantiated measures on revenue and employee count. References should be removed unless they can be verified by actual public documents or something more concrete than aggregators. In this case, there aren't

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I'm in favour of using encyclopaedic language in an encyclopaedia. "Former" and "ex" mean the same thing: was, but no longer is. "Former" is more formal than "ex". Your argument for removing the picture is nonsensical. –

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And how he acquired his Irish citizenship/passport is still unclear. NYT: "It was not clear how Paul Whelan obtained Irish citizenship, though people with Irish ancestors are frequently eligible." Perhaps a grandparent?

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According to THIS OFFICIAL MARINE PUBLICATION -- ELIGIBILITY FOR BENEFITS CHART those who have had a BCD are INELIGIABLE to wear their uniform. Therefore it is NOT appropriate to display a photo of him in uniform.

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which you can read above. They were for editors to consider and in general pointed out places where our writing could be more careful. He was discreet as could be and made no edits. You can read the conversations

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I'm Paul Whelan's twin brother. It is not my intent to suggest you adopt any edits, merely to point out things that might help your efforts or call attention to things that I don't think are properly sourced.

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other parties had filed against one of his former employers. From 1988 to 2000 Whelan served as a police officer on the Chelsea, Michigan, force, and as a deputy in the Washtenaw County Sheriff's Office."

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All 4 countries have seen Whelan and given embassy consular services and given diplomatic notes to Russia, so they definitely are dealing with him in a manner consistent with him being a real citizen. --

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Some people have multiple citizenships. And some of them have more than one passport. Yet the fact that he took the trouble / did the paperwork / provided the documentation / paid the fees to acquire

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https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/american-paul-whelan-charged-with-espionage-in-russia-news-agency-reports/2019/01/03/51dab55a-0f6a-11e9-8f0c-6f878a26288a_story.html

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about engaging in a game with his sister provides the only rationale. And it's the innocent explanation of a family rivalry that's the point of the quote, not the single word

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defaming Paul with a lie. David told the Ann Arbor Observer that he has repeatedly tried to take this libel out of Knowledge but unscrupulous editors keep putting it back.

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So you’re in favor of glorifying the former military status of someone who was thrown out of the service for dereliction of duty? What branch did you say you were you in?

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years and she said she learned at Parris Island that the only “ex Marines” are the ones that were thrown out. He’s an ex Marine! I’m changing that photo as soon as I can!

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Provided directly to Knowledge? If so then the provider does seem to be biased to show him in the best light possible and with a good reason to play the military card.

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If you need a photo of Paul, or photos showing him in his Washtenaw County Sheriff's Department uniform, among others, the family has provided an online album of

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Since there is a Paul Whelen page already in existence. This page needs a disambiguation between the other established page or this page should be deleted.

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who was arrested in Russia on December 28, 2018, and accused of spying. Whelan, who has U.S., British, Irish, and Canadian citizenship, served in the

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This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Paul Whelan article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. --

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citations that confirm that he bought or sold weapons there. It would probably be most accurate if you took the Firearms Dealer License number found

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details now can follow the sources. It's rather complicated. Thank you for helping us. Your clarifications and corrections are much appreciated.

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Thank you for your reply. Unfortunately, I still see this name 'Tramp', in Footnote 19. It is not a great issue, but I see it as a distraction.

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course, undocumented — they’re not something everyone knows even if obvious to you and news to me — so the reader may reasonably wonder, as the

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Doesn't really matter what they sat at Parris Island. He's a former Marine. Don't bother removing or changing the photo, you'll be reverted. –

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within an hour of this tag being placed. The discussion may be closed 7 days after being opened, if consensus has been reached (see the

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Interviewer: There's all sorts of claims on Knowledge ... David Whelan: You can see on the talkapge how I've had to deal with defamation

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https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6544581/amp/PICTURED-American-citizen-Paul-Whelan-arrested-spying-allegations-Russia.html

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Some sources say that the Washtenaw County Sheriff's Department says that he never worked for them. What is the upshot on this?

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We were born in March 1970, and so Paul is 48. This has been widely reported - search the internet for '"paul whelan" 48'.

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multiple nationalities. Which is kind of ironic since they just voted down citizenship for honourably discharged veterans.

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It is incorrect to state that Paul was dishonorably discharged or to quote me as saying that he was. The article you cite

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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the ongoing discussions.

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He is not in solitary confinement. I'm not sure it's accurate to say that he was ever in solitary confinement, based on

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does not use the words "dishonorable discharge" because that is inaccurate. A bad conduct discharge is different; see

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for this article as its inclusion will substantially increase the significance of the article. Please remove the

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https://www.clickondetroit.com/news/michigan-company-releases-statement-regarding-employee-detained-in-russia_

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https://whatsnew2day.com/american-charged-by-russia-with-being-a-spy-cultivated-contacts-in-moscow-for-years/

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passports seems to be newsworthy. However easy it may be, you still have to make the effort. New York Times:

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to be something Whalen said in "court documents", which is where his erroneous education info came from.

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Not to mention that the CIA has every reason to lie and zero reasons to tell the truth, if he was cia.

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My own rule is to avoid tabloids and TV news as much as possible, especially for breaking coverage.

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