74:
53:
449:
understood by all native speakers of
English who aren't kidding themselves. For example, if you attack me, and I punch you in the face, I'm using pain to stop you. This is pain compliance. If you yield, and the emergency is over, and I decide to keep on kicking you while you're down until you apologise, then I'm torturing you. If I lock you in my cellar and calmly continue over the next couple of days, then it is even more clearly torture.
84:
22:
357:"Lawful sanctions" refers to punishment after trial, not to the "lawful" taking of suspects into custody; this is what the expression means. If you can find a reference stating that "lawful sanctions" includes "taking a suspect into custody", please do so; in the many discussions of "lawful sanctions" I've looked at online, none mention anything like such an interpretation.
453:
amputate a gram of your body tissue every hour until you died or made a false confession, and this wouldn't be torture, just as long as they passed a law authorising enhanced interrogation. The UN is a band of governments, and therefore has a get-out clause for governments. UN documents should not be taken to have precedence over the
English language.
556:
In many ways, the
American moral panic regarding âPCPâ resembles the hysteria surrounding the âcrack epidemicâ, âcrack babiesâ, etc. That one also trickled up from law-enforcement, and the consequences were devastating: knee-jerk legislative changes produced a sentencing disparity now widely accepted
417:
I would not be surprised if my interpretation of "lawful sanctions" is completely wrong. I tried a quick search just now, but didn't find a definition. If pain compliance is torture according to the UN definition or a reasonable interpretation thereof, shouldn't we be able to find a reliable source
542:
As far as I can tell, belief in the supposed effect of these drugs upon compliance with law enforcement originates in a sort of urban legend or moral panic, perhaps originating among
American police officers. If you search the internet for information about âPCPâ and violent crime, the stories you
452:
The false distinction is that lawfulness is the difference. That's very stupid. It would mean that no government or king has ever tortured, because rulers virtually always pass laws to cover their actions where necessary. According to the false distinction, the police could take you away, and
448:
Pain compliance is not what is normally called âtortureâ. However, a spurious justification for this is offered above. The true reason why pain compliance is not torture is that torture is slow and cold-blooded, whereas pain compliance is fast and in the heat of the moment. This is clear and
456:
This article could correctly note that pain compliance is like a very fast, short-term version of torture. It could then go on to say that pain compliance can be abused, and thus become true torture (e.g. the cops come into your cell and tase you until you sign the confession). â
366:
Moreover, "pain compliance" is widely used by law enforcement not only for protection from bodily harm, but also, quite frequently, to compel obedience to orders. That is, the intentional infliction of extreme pain for the purpose of coercion. This, by the plain language of
547:
The claim as it appears in this article is cautiously worded, but the stories about âPCPâ one encounters elsewhere go a lot further. Criminal suspects believed to be affected by âPCPâ are presented not only as invulnerable to pain, but as possessing superhuman
330:
Since pain compliance is used in the lawful action of taking a suspect into custody, one may argue that the UN definition therefore excludes pain compliance. Note that this is not in the article either. Without sources, either interpretation of the UN text is
418:
to support that, possibly a clarification from the UN itself? As I wrote above, I had looked for statements from
Amnesty International (and probably the ACLU, but I don't remember) and found nothing saying "pain compliance is torture".
380:
I see that you removed well-sourced references to abuse of Tasers because "a taser does not use pain for compliance". But, a taser in "drive stun" mode *is* using pain (only) for compliance, so those references should not have been
289:
Flatcan has undone my recent edit, referencing the definition of torture, as given by the UN Committee against
Torture; Flatscan's justification was "needs an explicit source". I find this puzzling: what part of
148:
114:
110:
106:
589:
138:
526:
use may alter the subject's perception of pain or willingness to submitâ is of dubious veracity. Claims of this nature should be treated with extreme skepticism.
96:
594:
584:
201:
I have been unable to find a statement from a human rights group that directly ties pain compliance to torture. I have removed the sentence from the article.
429:, prior to your reworking around the full sentence quotation. My base objection is the same: we do not have a source to support the implied direct link.
368:
323:
101:
58:
425:
at this article removed (1) the UN torture definition we're discussing here and (2) the UN Committee
Against Torture text that I had reverted at
543:
will come across are more folkloric in nature than encyclopaedic: the kind of lurid, unsourced claims that were once spread by chain emails.
238:
332:
561:
That, I think, makes clear the potential cost of presenting dangerous nonsense as fact to a readership numbering in the millions.
261:
causes pain; since it does both, it doesn't rely on pain compliance alone. If you think this point should be made clearer in the
33:
479:
406:
310:
340:
231:
I removed the taser reference, as a taser does not use pain for compliance. Check the taser page for more info.
474:
538:
somebody might add so bold a claim to a
Knowledge (XXG) article without any evidence to support it: folklore.
39:
21:
530:
Why? Most immediately, this claim should be treated with skepticism because it is asserted without evidence.
242:
394:
298:
234:
205:
328:
It does not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in or incidental to lawful sanctions.
562:
390:
You have asked me (elsewhere) not to revert edits under discussion; please follow your own policy.
291:
566:
483:. Other possibilities discussed pain compliance briefly in non-law enforcement contexts, including
175:
398:
302:
500:
434:
348:
274:
217:
187:
402:
306:
73:
52:
211:
209:
515:
458:
171:
578:
519:
496:
430:
344:
270:
213:
183:
492:
488:
523:
83:
266:
89:
79:
208:
that mention "pain compliance" and potential abuse with regard to Tasers:
534:
But there is something else going on here, and it helps us to understand
570:
504:
463:
438:
410:
352:
314:
278:
246:
221:
191:
336:
426:
254:
179:
15:
182:
have somewhat increased pain compliance's public profile.
421:
I'm not sure which edit you mean, please provide a diff.
422:
557:
to be a de-facto instrument of racial discrimination.
510:
Regarding the effects of certain drugs upon compliance
174:
to its own stub article. I did this primarily to add
343:that explicitly said "pain compliance is torture".
514:This articleâs claim that âaltered states such as
337:#Torture and opposition by human rights activists
197:Torture and opposition by human rights activists
265:article, feel free to leave a note here or at
257:. Briefly, the Taser disrupts motor function
8:
253:Thanks for editing the article. Please see
123:Knowledge (XXG):WikiProject Law Enforcement
19:
170:I changed this article from a redirect to
47:
485:Handbook of hospital security and safety
204:I did find two recent (2007) statements
590:Low-importance Law enforcement articles
49:
7:
595:WikiProject Law Enforcement articles
585:Start-Class Law enforcement articles
126:Template:WikiProject Law Enforcement
477:for possible sources. The best was
172:Grappling hold#Pain compliance hold
38:It is of interest to the following
14:
322:Please read the last sentence of
82:
72:
51:
20:
335:. I've looked for sources (see
143:This article has been rated as
333:unacceptable original research
178:as a method of applying pain.
1:
571:04:50, 24 December 2023 (UTC)
279:06:39, 27 February 2009 (UTC)
247:04:04, 27 February 2009 (UTC)
222:20:29, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
285:"Pain Compliance" is torture
192:02:58, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
102:WikiProject Law Enforcement
95:This article is within the
611:
505:04:01, 9 August 2009 (UTC)
464:04:19, 28 July 2009 (UTC)
142:
67:
46:
129:Law enforcement articles
480:Criminal Justice Ethics
439:04:24, 6 May 2009 (UTC)
411:02:33, 6 May 2009 (UTC)
353:04:32, 5 May 2009 (UTC)
315:23:16, 4 May 2009 (UTC)
28:This article is rated
475:searched Google Books
206:Amnesty International
32:on Knowledge (XXG)'s
339:above) and found no
176:electroshock weapon
294:is not explicit?
34:content assessment
423:My initial revert
414:
397:comment added by
318:
301:comment added by
237:comment added by
163:
162:
159:
158:
155:
154:
602:
495:hobbyist books.
413:
391:
341:reliable sources
317:
295:
255:Taser#Drive Stun
249:
149:importance scale
131:
130:
127:
124:
121:
92:
87:
86:
76:
69:
68:
63:
55:
48:
31:
25:
24:
16:
610:
609:
605:
604:
603:
601:
600:
599:
575:
574:
512:
471:
392:
296:
287:
232:
229:
199:
168:
128:
125:
122:
120:Law Enforcement
119:
118:
88:
81:
61:
59:Law Enforcement
29:
12:
11:
5:
608:
606:
598:
597:
592:
587:
577:
576:
560:
555:
546:
541:
533:
529:
516:mental illness
511:
508:
470:
467:
446:
445:
444:
443:
442:
441:
419:
385:
384:
383:
382:
375:
374:
373:
372:
369:the definition
361:
360:
359:
358:
324:the definition
286:
283:
282:
281:
228:
225:
198:
195:
167:
164:
161:
160:
157:
156:
153:
152:
145:Low-importance
141:
135:
134:
132:
94:
93:
77:
65:
64:
62:Lowâimportance
56:
44:
43:
37:
26:
13:
10:
9:
6:
4:
3:
2:
607:
596:
593:
591:
588:
586:
583:
582:
580:
573:
572:
568:
564:
558:
553:
552:and resolve.
551:
544:
539:
537:
531:
527:
525:
521:
520:phencyclidine
517:
509:
507:
506:
502:
498:
494:
490:
486:
482:
481:
476:
468:
466:
465:
462:
461:
454:
450:
440:
436:
432:
428:
424:
420:
416:
415:
412:
408:
404:
400:
396:
389:
388:
387:
386:
379:
378:
377:
376:
371:, is torture.
370:
365:
364:
363:
362:
356:
355:
354:
350:
346:
342:
338:
334:
329:
325:
321:
320:
319:
316:
312:
308:
304:
300:
293:
284:
280:
276:
272:
268:
264:
260:
256:
252:
251:
250:
248:
244:
240:
239:24.90.211.150
236:
226:
224:
223:
219:
215:
212:
210:
207:
202:
196:
194:
193:
189:
185:
181:
177:
173:
166:Stub creation
165:
150:
146:
140:
137:
136:
133:
116:
112:
108:
104:
103:
98:
91:
85:
80:
78:
75:
71:
70:
66:
60:
57:
54:
50:
45:
41:
35:
27:
23:
18:
17:
559:
554:
549:
545:
540:
535:
532:
528:
513:
493:self-defense
489:martial arts
484:
478:
472:
459:
455:
451:
447:
327:
288:
262:
258:
230:
203:
200:
169:
144:
100:
40:WikiProjects
524:amphetamine
393:âPreceding
297:âPreceding
233:âPreceding
30:Start-class
579:Categories
267:Talk:Taser
90:Law portal
563:Foxmilder
487:and some
460:Chameleon
105:. Please
550:strength
497:Flatscan
469:Sourcing
431:Flatscan
407:contribs
395:unsigned
381:removed.
345:Flatscan
311:contribs
299:unsigned
271:Flatscan
235:unsigned
214:Flatscan
184:Flatscan
399:Kiwanda
303:Kiwanda
292:torture
147:on the
99:of the
180:Tasers
115:Assess
113:, and
111:Create
36:scale.
427:Taser
263:Taser
227:Taser
97:scope
567:talk
522:and
501:talk
435:talk
403:talk
349:talk
307:talk
275:talk
243:talk
218:talk
188:talk
107:Join
536:why
491:or
259:and
139:Low
581::
569:)
518:,
503:)
473:I
437:)
409:)
405:â˘
351:)
326::
313:)
309:â˘
277:)
269:.
245:)
220:)
190:)
109:,
565:(
499:(
433:(
401:(
347:(
305:(
273:(
241:(
216:(
186:(
151:.
117:.
42::
Text is available under the Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike License. Additional terms may apply.