Talk:Pickup artist - Knowledge (XXG)

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underground nature of the seduction community it can be pretty hard. I talked with DGG about writing about people filming pickup and posting it online as well as the trend for hiring female trainers, but I could not find good enough references for these. The proposed addition would be to add these sections at the end of 'History' and 'Concepts' respectively, although perhaps the first section might fit better in 'Controversy'. Anyway thanks for reading this, I am happy to look for better references if these are not sufficient though looking for grade A references for articles related to the seduction community seems to be like trying to find a needle in the cyber-hay-stack. Thanks for reading!

257: 236: 267: 2501:, and there are also people hiring experienced guitarists to teach them the instrument, and lots of online forums about techniques and tabulature and getting gigs and so on, but we don't have an article on "guitarism" or a "strumming movement" or a "guitarplaying community", especially not on the basis that some of the forums and participants in them think and talk of their webboards as online communities. The real coatracking going on here is using WP to promote the idea that such an 2481: 480: 527: 152: 131: 1418:

combined material has the hallmarks of an interdisciplinary field of study and promiscuously borrows concepts and terminology from other disciplines in the arts, sciences, and pseudo-sciences. Evolutionary biology, neurolinguistic programming, and the psychology of influence are just a few of the fields that have been mined for concepts and metaphors germane to the practice of pick-up.

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pathetic the whole thing is would not be inappropriate and would only be opposed by stunted males from the US still acting like cowardly preteens. Put this article - if indeed it need stay here when so many really important things are systematically and wantonly deleted - in its proper context. And what would women and feminists say if they saw this rubbish? Thank you.

2535:. Saving the non-negligible edit history is necessary. "Pickup artist" is the common name for this phenomenon; "seduction community" sounds like a euphemism for what's better known as the pickup artist movement. News references to "seduction community" often call it the "so-called seduction community", "seduction 'community'", "self-titled seduction community", etc.-- 21: 345: 2119: 2348:"Pick-up artist" doesn't sound neutral to me, it's a loaded term that means a certain thing. It brings to mind people who try to pick up as many women as humanly possible and not just people who study seduction because they're bad at it. Non experts should not be lumped in with people who practice it all the time and identify as "artists". 162: 2379: 2842:

I'm telling you that the article has sources, and the article's wording must follow the wording of the sources. If you want to change one, you must also change the other. We have only your word that the present sources are 'incorrect'. On Knowledge (XXG) we do not substitute our own judgment for that

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It has recently come to my attention that this section was used to advertise precisely one study by one author. I have edited the tone a bit, but kept the reference as it seemed somewhat relevant (notwithstanding the purported original intent). In any case, I would encourage others who are interested

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None of the claims of "the seduction community" are made in peer-reviewed journals. Virtually none of the "gurus" have any training whatsoever in psychology or the social sciences. It is preposterous that this article is allowed to present itself as "social psychology" in an unchallenged fashion. The

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and the attainment of higher consciousness. While Hemon proposes alternative committed relationship arrangements that involve multiple partners, Soporno rejects the idea of committed relationships and the suggestion of ownership that it entails. He asserts that ideas of monogamy developed only with

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I really think there is a lack of information on the begineers of the seduction community, it have to be started by trainers at least from 1980s 1990s, but it only mentioned the newers workers in this area 2000s and above, I think it would improve this article to collecte olders trainers forgotten by

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Furthermore, while I’m sure someone somewhere is still running “bootcamps”, there is now a huge industry of dating coaches who clearly don’t fall under the definition of “pickup artist” (see my separate edit removing that “synonym” from the lead sentence once I finish writing my talk page comments).

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As well Johhny Soporno and Stephane Hemon, two almost totally irrelevant fringe seduction community teachers seem to take up an erroneous space in the History. These two have almost as much space in the history section as Neil Strauss or Mystery while they are even within the community itself almost

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concepts of property that were necessary for an agrarian society to mature. While these concepts are interesting developments within the seduction community, they are still seen as controversial especially with the collapse of Hemon's independent circle which undermined many of his former theories.

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I reiterate: If you report what the sources say PearlSt82 you should perhaps start by using the article itself as the source which clearly says 'sexes' i.e. male female, not gender or gender identity. Quote from the article "...The rise of "seduction science", "game", or "studied charisma" has been

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And I'm telling you that the source mentions 'sex roles' which directly deals with the male and female sex, men and women. i.e. the roles between the two sexes. Thus my edit is not only correct by in keeping with the source and the content of the article itself which deals with male and female, men

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This article is tagged with a concern addressing a worldwide view according to the United States. The undated tag instructs editors to refer to the talk page. Where is this discussion located? I've looked for it, but can not find it. It may be here somewhere within an ambiguous section. Where? What

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has developed which he eventually consolidated into the theory of Entourage Game. Entourage Game changes the emphasis of pickup from doing cold approaches to engineering your lifestyle so that you create a large social circle of women who you then can date if you choose. This method is alleged by

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Recently some figures within the community have espoused more radical views concerning relationships. Previously the seduction community, although rejecting conventional views on dating, to a large extent accepted mainstream views on marriage and monogamy. Johnny Soporno has used the discourse of

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This article should be modified. As it is, it mentions plenty of fringe figures with no relevance such as Johnny Soporno. Also, it is entirely uncritical. There is now a strong countermovement, first seeded by Barry Kirkey (Extramask from The Game), now there is PUAHate.com, which exposes the shams

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I feel there are enough reliable secondary sources within the References section of the article to establish the topic's notability. Also, if you look in the archive of this talk page you will find multiple instances of people trying to gain consensus for deleting the article but failing. I'm just

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The body of knowledge in the field of "pick-up" has grown exponentially in the past decade as millions of men around the globe have taken an interest in the subject. Many write up their personal experiences and construct theories of the self and of social dynamics to share with other students. The

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Are you telling me there are no sources for the male and female sex? As for the sources in place those are clearly incorrect since they do not link to the male and female sex but to gender, and gender and gender identity is not what the article is about. I am aware of the polices and I can't find

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article (both dating, under various titles like the malformed "Pick Up Artist", etc., to 2006). Many of the flagged problems of the latter article remain, but the merge should obviously have been to the better-written article and better-attested, more neutral term. Spelling-wise, "pick-up artist"

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The article seems to be stuck in the 2000s. Much like early Marxism (an apt, and original, analogy — no offense intended to any Marxists reading this), many of the least radical/toxic concepts of the turn-of-the-millennium pickup community gradually percolated into the mainstream. In many cases,

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Furthermore, you claim that I am putting words in the authors mouth, that too is incorrect, Quote from the article "...The rise of "seduction science", "game", or "studied charisma" has been attributed to modern forms of dating and social norms between sexes which have developed from a perceived

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Feel free to replace the current source with a source that links to the male and female sex since that's what the entire article is all about. The article has nothing to do with gender and gender identity etc. The article clearly is about males and females, men and women. i.e. sex roles i.e. the

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Not all use of an area of human knowledge is or belongs in the scientific studies of that area. Many Technical communities operate far outside the academic sciences they use, but that doesn't mean that a description cannot include words like "physics", "chemistry" or "metallurgy" . Similarly a

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There has also been a convergence recently between the seduction coaching industry and the porn industry. Johnny Soporno, and Hoobie from Real Social Dynamics typify this trend. Johnny Soporno has worked in the porn industry for almost 20 years and has released products targeting men and women

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In fact i have met with members of the seduction community in places other than the US. I am sure that, if you go looking, you will find references to lairs, courses, gurus, books and media articles on the topic, world-wide: including at least Canada, Europe, and southeast Asia. Also, while the

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This whole thing is a problem in the US only and should be pointed out as such. No other culture lacks the social skills of people in the US. The shame of course is they pick a 'solution' that's so typical of them - and actually further propagates their own silliness. A little commentary on how

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Description of request- This addition covers the recent attention given to social proof and lifestyle within the seduction community as well as the convergence between the seduction coaching industry and the porn industry. I have tried to get as reliable references as possible, but due to the

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of the sources. Re 'that very source' - you have changed content attributed to three sources. Which are you referring to? Because I've read all three and none of them use your preferred wording. Again, please self-revert, you are putting words in these author's mouths that they did not say. -

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The fact that people involved in using (and sometimes teaching) PUA techniques have some webboards doesn't make it a "movement", nor "a community"; that looks like original research. There are various forums around which some "online community" has developed, but such a sense of bro-hood is

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The article clearly states that it deals with the two sexes, not with gender and gender identity. As I've pointed out previously, you can't use sex and gender interchangeably, they are NOT the same hing. The source used should reflect this. As for sex roles it's used in the source itself.

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My vote is for no integration. The seduction community consists of seduction coaches, dating coaches, individuals who consume seduction media without affiliating with a particular lair or program, wingmen meetups, unaffiliated friend-groups who've all read the game, and, yes, both for- and

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The first sentence of an article is arguably the most important one. I feel the current one as it stands -- "The seduction community is a loose-knit subculture of men who strive for better sexual and romantic success with women through self-improvement and a greater understanding of social

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The 21 Convention is a pioneer event hosted by Dream. It is the first, and only event to consistently bring the major companies within the seduction community together, and release the footage absolutely free with no advertising, no cost, and no sign up required. UNLIKE Pua Lingo which has

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An academic paper on the community, published in 2012 by Eric C. Hendriks in the journal Cultural Analysis, details the value system guiding successful members of the Seduction Community based on an international study including participant observation of bootcamp and "lair" meetings in

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The article clearly deals with the male and female sex PearlSt82, not with gender or gender identity. Thus the source should reflect this. You can't use a source that doesn't cite what the article itself is about, which is male and female, men and women, and men picking up women.

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many people who come in to the community are desiring to end up with a long term relationship, no need to put undue weight on the short term nature of many other relationships (after all the great majority of relationships that humans have in general are of a short term basis).

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Goodnewsfortheinsane, your whole section here would be a perfect case example for teaching people about writing a balanced article- that is, how one might think they're doing so when actually their own bias slips under their awareness. Ill use it, thanks! :)

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in the academic view on seduction (and the seduction community) to edit this section and include sources by reputable authors. For those who have the time and the interest, I would recommend searching pubmed for terms like "seduction" or "pickup" (e.g.

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I think it's important that readers are aware of problems with the article. If an article has no sources then a reader should be more skeptical when reading the information. I believe that sourcing is the most important problem with most articles.

1179:. The innovation of Lyon's formula is the emphasis on breaking rapport to create attraction, a concept that was touched on by Erik von Markovik with his concept of negs, although it was widely misunderstood and parodied in the media at the time. 2447:- Determining individual pick-up artists' expert status seems like it would be introducing many additional, unnecessary challenges. The majority of sources seem to use "pick-up artist" without treating this as a subset of any other category. 1055:

not-for-profit lairs. Of those, lairs stand apart for being (1) unlikely to receive press and (2) foundational. What needs to happen, if anything, is that this article gets expanded and its intro gets incorporated into the main SC article.

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question may be relevant, of whether this kind of social activity is pathetic, it is hardly neutral point of view. So, if you can write balanced prose on the topic, then please do. In fact commentary from women and feminists

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If you are making a comment on the content of this article, we request that you please be specific about what you consider to be wrong with it. Vague comments such as 'this is becoming spam' are not helpful to anyone. --

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attributed to modern forms of dating and social norms between sexes which have developed from a perceived increase in the equality of women"... clearly this deals with the two sexes, not with gender and gender identity.

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not every dating page on wikipedia needs to be full of spammy links to the mystery page. If someone wants to make the claim that mystery needs to be singled out for special mention, this should be sourced and argued.

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A separate Context section (or first subsection of the History section) should be added, covering the relatively rapid mid-late 20th century changes in Western society’s courtship conventions, and other aspects of the

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So it's a nice PR piece, but a lot of it is unverifiable, and pretty much all of it is original research, is my guess. I don't think there needs to be an argument for legitimacy. Thoughts on removing this paragraph?

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uses a relatively low standard of reliability. This is actually pretty common with certain classes of topics. Opinion articles make up a large body of the available coverage, so there aren’t always better sources

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Why the attribution to Adam Lyons?! The general concept of social gaming is far older than even how long he has been in the game. That is like trying to claim natural game came about because of RSD's Natural Tim.

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It is clear from reading the article that it deals with males and female, thus the traditional roles refers to the roles between men and women. i.e. sex roles i.e. the roles between the two sexes. Clue is in the

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You can't use sex and gender interchangeably, they are NOT the same thing. So either this article is about sex (male and female, men and women) or it is about gender and gender identity, it can't be about both.

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Actually there are many lairs for PUAs all over the world. It's quite an international community. To write the article with the perspective that it's pathetic would introduce bias and would make the article not

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wikipedia articles are the victims of spurious tagging; it is a hit-and-run tactic that lowers an article's perceived quality without discussion and with little or no punitive action against the perpetrator. --

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I stumbled upon an online seduction community and it was so filled with jargon and acronyms that the conversations were incomprehensible. The discussion on acronyms and jargon should be expanded.

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anything that says that incorrect sources should be used instead of correct ones, nor can I find anything that says that incorrect sources should be used until there are correct ones available.

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I was going to point out that a hurried reading of a post near the top of this thread suggests, appropriately enough, that the seduction community is dating the malformed "Pick Up Artist".

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If you report what the sources say PearlSt82 you should perhaps start by using the article itself as the source which clearly says 'sexes' i.e. male female, not gender or gender identity.

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I agree, more mention of the earlier guys would be good but unfortunately the way it works it is easier to find stuff on the more recent guys so it ends up that is what gets put in first.

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Adam Lyon is not the first to talk about breaking rapport as a way to create attraction. Breaking rapport starts, at the very least, with David DeAngelo who spoke of "busting on a woman."

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Looks good. I've lowered the protection so you should be able to make the edit yourself now. By the way, the highest heading in articles should be level 2 (i.e. use == not =). — Martin

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Yeah, the OP's claim is nonsense. The Internet doesn't know national boundaries, and PUA stuff was published in books and taught in creepy seminars for decades before the Internet.

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This article is bout a nondistinctive part of the community , not different from any other purpose-oriented mutual support clubs, and could easily be moved into the main article.

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I wrote the bit about Johnny and Stephane. I think what is interesting are the concepts discussed and not the actual figures and their prominence. I think the first sentence:

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My logic was that as a large area of the seduction community they are one of the most worthy subjects in this area to deserve a separate article from the main article.

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Academic research has also confirmed to some extent that "game" and attraction principles do have a factual basis in social, physiological and evolutionary psychology.

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No, if you want to change it the onus is on you to find a new source. In the meantime the article should follow the sources we have. The policies in question are

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subculture exists. There's no real evidence of any such global coordination. It's just a bunch of psychologically manipulative dudes trying to get laid easier.

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User MrOllie has been reverting a lot of edits to suit his own agenda and using personal attacks. He will not even let any of my minor edits stand, including:

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Lyons to be a more natural way of meeting a long-term partner and consequently it requires less effort. Lyons has also developed a formula for attraction:

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if you read even just quite a small selection of sources it is quite undeniable the amount of words/material they've borrowed/utilised from other sources.

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While many supported without stating whether they preferred the hyphen or not, others have pointed out that without the hyphen is more commonly used. —

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particular to each forum, and they are not intricately connected to each other. There's OR going on here, and some misconceptualization. There are

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sets out that these views are slightly fringe, but I think their prominence within the community is sufficient to include them in the article.

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So your solution is to leave the sources in place, and substitute your personal judgment for what they say? That is expressly not allowed by

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womanizer types and not merely anyone who studies seduction. It seems independently notable, with all the media coverage it has been getting.

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which I have already linked for you. Now that you know about them, it would be great if you would self-revert until you find new sources. -

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claims of "the community" are utterly unverified and therefore pseudoscientific dogmatism; this fact should be reflected in future edits.

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What specifically are you talking about? I have read all three sources and they do not use the term 'sex role' at all that I can find. -

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Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a

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interested in the industry based on his experiences. Hoobie created a website that merged seduction coaching videos with pornography.

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Agree with the cleanup. I was trying to work on it but I lost most of my internet connectivity recently so I can't do much for it now.

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I have this page on watch, as do over three hundred other users, there was no calling involved. Announcing you're going to violate

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roles between the two sexes. (and the source used should reflect this fact, not sure what Wiki policies says that it shouldn't)

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dominates by a wide margin, followed by "pickup artist", and "pick up artist" last (because it's not really grammatical in most

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Interesting to note that MrOllie called for assistance, perhaps I should resort to doing the same. A bit childish, but still.

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Another reference described as academic is actually a blog post or a personal essay mispresented as a study. It is described:

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The article has nothing to do with gender and gender identity etc, thus the cited sources that says it does are incorrect.

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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http://www.wwwyou.org/index.php?s=7cd8fd38c0549b712565b4e18b80d6dc&showtopic=888&pid=3277&st=0&#entry3277

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I see no copy violation, and the main article is rather long and so I see negative benefit in merging in this article.

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should be merged into this article as there seems to be a big overlap in the scope of the articles. Any thoughts? --

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community of people abusing psychological techniques for personal gain can well be described as using "psychology" .

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The issue here is that sex and gender are used interchangeably despite the fact that they are NOT the same thing.

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increase in the equality of women"... clearly this deals with the two sexes, not with gender and gender identity.

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and women, and with men picking up women. The article has nothing to do with gender and gender identity. Read it.

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within society. Stephane Hemon has also contributed to this debate, but approaches the topic using concepts from

915:• It does not make reference to any of the controversies that surround the subject and which are well-documented. 2088:- Nuance between these subjects is completely lost in the article as it stands. Merge would help with accuracy -- 923: 565: 1740: 1343: 879: 728: 724: 2584: 2180: 1467: 824: 686: 117: 2484:, "pickup artist" is the more common spelling. I can't believe that subject was co-opted by this article. -- 1908: 1233:

I've put it up now, thanks for lowering the protection and pointing out my mistake with the article heading!

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Honestly, without that crucial paragraph(s), this article will remain a Wiki article, not a ‘Pedia article.

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This is not an article that should exist on wikipedia. When there is any sources that could be mistaken for

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The sources cited by these statements explicitly say 'gender roles', and we should follow the sources per

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What should the "slashed term" in the introduction mean? How could this be said clearly without the / ? --

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exist. Inclusion of prominent opinions in a section on controversy would serve to improve the article. --

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http://pickuppodcast.com/blogs/pickuppodcast/archive/2009/03/23/pickup-podcast-ep-85-hoobie-interview.aspx

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claiming that "game" has a factual basis? The source linked is not readable anymore but this is obviously

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I have no concrete ideas how to rewrite this at the moment, aside from changing "better ... success" to "

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I'll remove it and if anyone disagrees they can revert my change and preferably comment here as to why.

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I agree, Johnny and Stephane are considered extremely fringe. Those sections of them should be removed.

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on Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join

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on Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join

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Well, there's one completely unsourced paragraph in History, and surprise, it's the most suspicious :)

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strongly disagree, as they are the foundation upon which the seduction community is built upon. They

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If they are " the foundation upon which the s.c. is built" then it would seem best to integrate it.

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PUAHATE.com is just a random forum that started up recently, and absolutely nothing more.... read

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those happened to be the ideas that were most grounded in bona fide research (no surprise there).

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for your changes. Google searches and PUA sites are not reliable as Knowledge (XXG) defines it. -

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for that content in the latter page, and it must not be deleted as long as the latter page exists.

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for that content in the latter page, and it must not be deleted as long as the latter page exists.

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putting this out there so there is no edit warring over whether the article is notable or not. --

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site?! surely you mean page.... & btw PUAHate.com is smaller than Johnny Soporno I'd reckon.

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Vallonen, please drop it. This is much to close to what falls under gender-related sanctions. --

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As for changing the content no, those two edits are consistent with the male and female sex.

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We should also include puahate.com, which is the counter movment of the seduction community.

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The additional point that female pickup artists exist Typo fixes Removing a promotional link

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is the specific concern? If the issue is not addressed, the tag needs to be removed. Thanks.

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Hi, this is a call to all puas. We need your humor to improve the parody of this article:

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referenced here, they are completely mispresented and the article's claims synthesized.

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I have opened a dispute resolution because of this. As a new user, he is breaching the

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Just wondering whether anyone else has problems logging into the asf site or forums?

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Thanks, as I assumed, this would get better advice here than I could give by myself.

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only applies when the title is a descriptive phrase Knowledge (XXG) made up; if the

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This is just pseudoscience. You can't even quantify this as a mathematical proof.

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Other revisions to the layout might also potentially improve the article as well.

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as the article referenced was not a study and did not refer to any such studies.

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http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=22670430

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The following references may be useful when improving this article in the future:

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etc... to see why nothing on that site is suitable for quoting in this article.

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Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a

2498: 1986: 1982: 1398: 1130: 262: 180: 157: 2618: 2407: 2382: 2136: 1344:

http://www.psychic101.com/articles/130/1/Stephane-Hemon-is-insane/Page1.html

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http://themodernsavage.com/2008/03/09/14-seduction-books-listed-in-the-game/

492:

The Language of Pick-Up Artists: Online Discourses of the Seduction Industry

30:. Please review the prior discussions if you are considering re-nomination: 1773:. If you disagree with anything I've said then you are free to refer me to 781:

Editors of this article might be interested in the debate going on over at

2374:

isn't very neutral we use it anyway. "Seduction community" is so rare it

499: 2419: 2316: 1257: 1101: 1040: 970: 569: 2476:

as an article describing the personality type, slang term, and use as a

1377:

http://www.seduction-chronicles.net/2009/03/23/afc-adam-lyons-interview/

1144: 1109: 3224: 3192: 3168: 3136: 3098: 3080: 3047: 3029: 2996: 2982: 2943: 2925: 2886: 2852: 2815: 2774: 2752: 2702: 2679: 2660: 2628: 2612: 2564: 2547: 2521: 2491: 2456: 2435: 2401: 2361: 2340: 2324: 2303: 2281: 2228: 2155: 2130: 2097: 2079: 2056: 1998: 1965: 1948: 1933: 1912: 1882: 1850: 1817: 1796: 1761: 1723: 1699: 1684: 1666: 1641: 1622: 1597: 1549: 1533: 1508: 1486: 1471: 1449: 1438: 1282: 1266: 1242: 1228: 1210: 1192: 1165: 1066: 1049: 1033: 1023: 1001: 979: 958: 942: 931: 883: 839: 828: 768: 748: 738: 710: 701: 690: 664: 644: 1981:). A quick search of mine returned two possibly interesting sources: 372: 909:"sexual and romantic success", which is ambiguous from the wording; 1175:

with his famous M3 model which was popularized with the release of

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All the sources at issue are specifically about pickup artists. -

3020:

A wikipedia article can't cite itself. That's not how this works.

2666:

As I have explained to you on my talk page, you need to provide

1355:

http://realmanconference.com/?speakers,4&ref=9b19a95d#johnny

723:

Propose merging this in, or possibly deleting as a copyvio from

3085:(ec) The cited sources for the term 'gender roles', namely the 898:• It does not incorporate the central role played by specific 572: 520: 474: 432: 390: 339: 93: 65: 15: 1171:

This concise modelling of attraction has also been seen with

2825:

Added, it appears it says 'sex roles' in that very source.

2418:

should be a separate article in that case, describing those

1388:

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/11/books/review/11jacobs.html

1100:

to challenge the institution of marriage and the concept of

731:. I don't see any way it could expand beyond a section. — 343: 2912:"Gender" is a clear representation of the sources, and per 2594:

Having closed this discussion, I can't help but note that “

2468:

to this very RECENT online movement. Revert the merge and

1690:

Agree with this. The article does need a clean up though.

1177:

The Game: Penetrating the Secret Society of Pickup Artists

895:

psychology." -- is problematic for the following reasons:

2025:

No objection to merger on either page after 30 days. Per

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has received more attention now due to the theories that

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Knowledge (XXG) requested images of sexuality subjects

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a

1311:

http://www.montrealmirror.com/2005/042805/people.html

2406:

This article seems a little too large to merge into

2139:

has this covered: just replace it with "and". Done.

2018:

Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

284:, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of 179:, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of 2183:. No further edits should be made to this section. 1300:

http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/2009/01/polyamory/

1147:) + Qualification + Sexual Escalation = Attraction 922:... success", which seems more correct. Any ideas? 2587:. No further edits should be made to this section. 1979:http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=seduction 298:Knowledge (XXG):WikiProject Sexology and sexuality 1896:http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/Seduction_community 1077:New content for 'History' and 'Concepts' sections 2602:” should really switch names with each other. — 1939:Seconded! Would you care to make such an edit? 3259:Mid-importance Sexology and sexuality articles 1076: 2021:A summary of the conclusions reached follows. 905:• It fails to address the common emphasis on 8: 757:is a stub and likely to remain so. Perhaps 3264:WikiProject Sexology and sexuality articles 1987:http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23253794 1983:http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24483605 813:the merchandising of the newers trainers. 783:Talk:Mystery (pickup artist)#Requested move 301:Template:WikiProject Sexology and sexuality 2710: 2169:The following is a closed discussion of a 2112:"... sexual success with/access to women"? 1399:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tgsHV9FEJdU 436: 394: 230: 125: 3123:As there's no edit request, it's time to 371:may be able to locate suitable images on 2763:Knowledge (XXG)'s core content policies. 1989:- but I am certain there are many more. 443:Text and/or other creative content from 401:Text and/or other creative content from 3254:C-Class Sexology and sexuality articles 1777:that help prove your point. Thanks. :) 1292: 232: 127: 97: 490:Dayter, Daria; Rüdiger, Sofia (2022). 193:Knowledge (XXG):WikiProject Psychology 2004:Merge pickup artist into this article 761:could be split in different ways? — 419:on 13 August 2015. The former page's 7: 2188:The result of the move request was: 2012:The following discussion is closed. 1958:2A01:4F0:4018:F0:1DC3:B330:52E0:BECE 278:This article is within the scope of 173:This article is within the scope of 808:Pioneers of the seduction community 116:It is of interest to the following 3244:Low-importance psychology articles 1556:unnecessary promotion of 'mystery' 281:WikiProject Sexology and sexuality 14: 3087:Kaufman piece in Psychology Today 2930:Agree. "Sex roles" appears to be 670:This site reads like a commercial 2256:article and a badly PoV-pushing 2117: 2103:The discussion above is closed. 675:and frauds of this subculture. 525: 478: 265: 255: 234: 160: 150: 129: 98: 69: 19: 3249:WikiProject Psychology articles 1919:Nothing to do with "psychology" 318:This article has been rated as 304:Sexology and sexuality articles 213:This article has been rated as 196:Template:WikiProject Psychology 80:on 9 March 2006. The result of 76:This article was nominated for 26:This article was nominated for 3169:22:34, 29 September 2020 (UTC) 3034:Vallonen, I suggest making an 1913:19:18, 12 September 2012 (UTC) 1685:18:35, 16 September 2010 (UTC) 1166:06:27, 22 September 2014 (UTC) 993:the "community" in "seduction 706:Surely you mean article. :P -- 645:14:04, 21 September 2015 (UTC) 1: 2711:'Gender roles' vs 'Sex Roles' 2506: 2386: 2266: 2140: 1802: 1762:01:14, 17 February 2011 (UTC) 1739:previous unsigned comment by 1724:01:08, 19 November 2010 (UTC) 1700:23:04, 17 November 2010 (UTC) 1487:21:20, 30 November 2009 (UTC) 1472:00:11, 20 November 2009 (UTC) 1409:Unsourced material in History 1193:22:12, 30 November 2009 (UTC) 1067:12:06, 9 September 2010 (UTC) 840:03:18, 12 February 2009 (UTC) 829:14:03, 19 December 2008 (UTC) 803:07:39, 19 December 2008 (UTC) 769:14:44, 11 November 2008 (UTC) 749:11:07, 11 November 2008 (UTC) 739:19:31, 10 November 2008 (UTC) 711:06:42, 5 September 2010 (UTC) 292:and see a list of open tasks. 187:and see a list of open tasks. 3149:Category:Seduction community 2916:we report what sources say. 2098:18:17, 4 December 2014 (UTC) 2080:07:02, 1 December 2014 (UTC) 1890:HELP TO UNCYCLOPEDIA ARTICLE 1883:16:40, 30 January 2012 (UTC) 1642:05:11, 5 February 2011 (UTC) 1623:16:16, 12 October 2010 (UTC) 1509:00:31, 4 December 2009 (UTC) 959:09:14, 6 February 2013 (UTC) 932:22:11, 17 January 2009 (UTC) 868:Stop taking down the link. 753:Well, maybe no copyvio, but 3239:C-Class psychology articles 2973:will not get you anywhere. 2218:12:22, 3 July 2018 (UTC) — 2162:Requested move 23 June 2018 2057:19:16, 13 August 2015 (UTC) 1966:01:39, 15 August 2024 (UTC) 1851:20:21, 28 August 2011 (UTC) 1439:05:45, 11 August 2009 (UTC) 777:Debate on Mystery's article 665:10:54, 2 October 2006 (UTC) 3285: 3137:18:08, 6 August 2020 (UTC) 3118:17:58, 6 August 2020 (UTC) 3099:17:25, 6 August 2020 (UTC) 3081:17:23, 6 August 2020 (UTC) 3066:17:07, 6 August 2020 (UTC) 3048:17:03, 6 August 2020 (UTC) 3030:17:01, 6 August 2020 (UTC) 3015:16:59, 6 August 2020 (UTC) 2997:16:56, 6 August 2020 (UTC) 2983:16:51, 6 August 2020 (UTC) 2964:16:46, 6 August 2020 (UTC) 2944:16:44, 6 August 2020 (UTC) 2926:16:40, 6 August 2020 (UTC) 2907:16:21, 6 August 2020 (UTC) 2887:16:16, 6 August 2020 (UTC) 2872:16:14, 6 August 2020 (UTC) 2853:15:53, 6 August 2020 (UTC) 2837:15:41, 6 August 2020 (UTC) 2816:15:14, 6 August 2020 (UTC) 2793:14:46, 6 August 2020 (UTC) 2775:14:23, 6 August 2020 (UTC) 2753:14:17, 6 August 2020 (UTC) 2729:11:26, 6 August 2020 (UTC) 2131:08:06, 26 April 2018 (UTC) 2115: 1797:18:22, 21 April 2011 (UTC) 1667:18:25, 21 April 2011 (UTC) 1598:07:34, 5 August 2010 (UTC) 1550:07:23, 22 March 2010 (UTC) 1534:06:53, 13 March 2010 (UTC) 1450:07:25, 22 March 2010 (UTC) 1002:04:50, 19 March 2009 (UTC) 943:04:52, 19 March 2009 (UTC) 702:07:08, 22 March 2010 (UTC) 691:17:59, 21 March 2010 (UTC) 324:project's importance scale 219:project's importance scale 3147:Hi! Shouldn't one rename 2680:11:56, 7 April 2020 (UTC) 2661:09:41, 7 April 2020 (UTC) 2492:10:03, 30 June 2018 (UTC) 2457:01:19, 26 June 2018 (UTC) 2362:00:49, 26 June 2018 (UTC) 2341:13:53, 25 June 2018 (UTC) 2325:02:21, 24 June 2018 (UTC) 2304:20:00, 23 June 2018 (UTC) 2282:10:22, 23 June 2018 (UTC) 2156:10:24, 23 June 2018 (UTC) 1818:12:37, 24 June 2018 (UTC) 1577:17:10, 24 June 2010 (UTC) 1283:04:42, 15 July 2009 (UTC) 1034:02:51, 24 June 2009 (UTC) 1024:23:09, 20 June 2009 (UTC) 980:08:05, 2 March 2009 (UTC) 729:Talk:Seduction literature 581:Needs rewrite or deletion 453:was copied or moved into 411:was copied or moved into 317: 250: 212: 145: 124: 3225:05:18, 14 May 2023 (UTC) 3193:05:11, 14 May 2023 (UTC) 2703:04:56, 14 May 2023 (UTC) 2647:don't bite the newcomers 2629:05:58, 2 June 2020 (UTC) 2613:00:42, 6 July 2018 (UTC) 2580:Please do not modify it. 2565:23:36, 2 July 2018 (UTC) 2548:19:37, 2 July 2018 (UTC) 2522:17:51, 1 July 2018 (UTC) 2436:06:44, 2 July 2018 (UTC) 2402:17:51, 1 July 2018 (UTC) 2376:doesn't even rate at all 2229:12:22, 3 July 2018 (UTC) 2176:Please do not modify it. 2105:Please do not modify it. 2015:Please do not modify it. 1999:00:43, 9 July 2014 (UTC) 1949:00:43, 9 July 2014 (UTC) 1732:A Problem in the US Only 1267:00:37, 6 July 2009 (UTC) 1243:22:12, 5 July 2009 (UTC) 1229:19:10, 5 July 2009 (UTC) 1211:23:45, 4 July 2009 (UTC) 1050:00:39, 6 July 2009 (UTC) 884:21:31, 14 May 2009 (UTC) 3217:RadioactiveBoulevardier 3185:RadioactiveBoulevardier 2695:RadioactiveBoulevardier 2466:this section was merged 2366:Not a valid rationale; 1934:04:16, 3 May 2013 (UTC) 1858:Quick questions/queries 1098:evolutionary psychology 1014:for the same reason. -- 776: 494:. New York: Routledge. 352:It is requested that a 3207:, among other things. 3159:, maybe you can help? 3155:Insertcleverphrasehere 2607:Insertcleverphrasehere 2223:Insertcleverphrasehere 2213:Insertcleverphrasehere 2029:. Result is to merge. 2027:bullet points on MERGE 1555: 1420: 348: 295:Sexology and sexuality 273:Human sexuality portal 242:Sexology and sexuality 176:WikiProject Psychology 106:This article is rated 50:, 4 October 2005, see 1415: 1140:which translates as 1137:(C - R) + Q + SE = A 985:I'd respectfully but 500:10.4324/9781003041313 347: 110:on Knowledge (XXG)'s 40:, 16 March 2018, see 3174:Influence on society 1106:New Age Spirituality 924:Goodnewsfortheinsane 755:seduction literature 719:Seduction literature 461:. The former page's 375:and other web sites. 2258:Seduction community 2236:Seduction community 2128:User:Haraldmmueller 1826:acronyms and jargon 1741:User:86.217.219.169 759:seduction community 467:provide attribution 455:Seduction community 425:provide attribution 413:Seduction community 369:WordPress Openverse 362:improve its quality 360:in this article to 199:psychology articles 2668:reliable citations 2464:- Ridiculous that 2410:without violating 1839:SimplyIrresistible 1627:I've noticed that 367:The external tool 349: 112:content assessment 3205:sexual revolution 3143:Renaming category 2688:The whole article 2609: 2545: 2433: 2414:. I believe that 2378:at Google Ngrams 2359: 2244:– Rationale: Per 2225: 2215: 2207: 2204:non-admin closure 2055: 1972:Academic Research 1903:comment added by 1886: 1869:comment added by 1854: 1837:comment added by 1567:comment added by 1537: 1520:comment added by 1462:comment added by 1429:comment added by 1227: 1173:Erik von Markovik 1156:comment added by 874:comment added by 819:comment added by 681:comment added by 648: 631:comment added by 578: 577: 559: 558: 519: 518: 508:978-1-000-54136-6 473: 472: 431: 430: 389: 388: 376: 338: 337: 334: 333: 330: 329: 229: 228: 225: 224: 168:Psychology portal 92: 91: 64: 63: 60: 59: 3276: 3198:Societal context 3158: 2653:WikiSchnitzelBoy 2605: 2582: 2543: 2520: 2424: 2400: 2350: 2280: 2243: 2221: 2211: 2201: 2178: 2154: 2121: 2120: 2049: 2043: 2040: 2037: 2034: 2017: 1915: 1885: 1863: 1853: 1831: 1816: 1793: 1787: 1781: 1720: 1714: 1708: 1663: 1657: 1651: 1619: 1613: 1607: 1579: 1536: 1514: 1474: 1441: 1401: 1396: 1390: 1385: 1379: 1374: 1368: 1363: 1357: 1352: 1346: 1341: 1335: 1330: 1324: 1319: 1313: 1308: 1302: 1297: 1217: 1168: 1087: 890:Opening sentence 886: 831: 693: 647: 625: 573: 540: 539: 529: 521: 512: 482: 475: 452: 440: 439: 433: 410: 398: 397: 391: 385: 383: 366: 346: 340: 306: 305: 302: 299: 296: 275: 270: 269: 259: 252: 251: 246: 238: 231: 201: 200: 197: 194: 191: 170: 165: 164: 163: 154: 147: 146: 141: 133: 126: 109: 103: 102: 94: 86:allow recreation 73: 66: 32: 31: 23: 16: 3284: 3283: 3279: 3278: 3277: 3275: 3274: 3273: 3229: 3228: 3200: 3176: 3152: 3145: 2713: 2637: 2635:Spam Reversions 2591: 2578: 2478:stock character 2434: 2360: 2239: 2174: 2164: 2124: 2123: 2118: 2114: 2109: 2108: 2064: 2041: 2038: 2035: 2032: 2013: 2006: 1974: 1921: 1898: 1892: 1864: 1860: 1832: 1828: 1791: 1785: 1779: 1734: 1718: 1712: 1706: 1677: 1661: 1655: 1649: 1617: 1611: 1605: 1585: 1562: 1558: 1515: 1457: 1424: 1411: 1406: 1405: 1404: 1397: 1393: 1386: 1382: 1375: 1371: 1364: 1360: 1353: 1349: 1342: 1338: 1331: 1327: 1320: 1316: 1309: 1305: 1298: 1294: 1151: 1125:The concept of 1123: 1093: 1081: 1079: 966: 892: 869: 814: 810: 779: 721: 676: 672: 662:Sasuke Sarutobi 657: 626: 583: 574: 568: 534: 509: 489: 448: 437: 406: 395: 381: 379: 344: 303: 300: 297: 294: 293: 286:human sexuality 271: 264: 244: 198: 195: 192: 189: 188: 166: 161: 159: 139: 107: 78:deletion review 12: 11: 5: 3282: 3280: 3272: 3271: 3266: 3261: 3256: 3251: 3246: 3241: 3231: 3230: 3199: 3196: 3175: 3172: 3144: 3141: 3140: 3139: 3125:drop the stick 3102: 3101: 3083: 3053: 3052: 3051: 3050: 3002: 3001: 3000: 2999: 2949: 2948: 2947: 2946: 2890: 2889: 2856: 2855: 2819: 2818: 2780: 2779: 2778: 2777: 2756: 2755: 2742: 2739: 2733: 2712: 2709: 2708: 2707: 2706: 2705: 2692: 2685: 2636: 2633: 2632: 2631: 2615: 2596:Pickup artists 2590: 2589: 2575:requested move 2569: 2568: 2567: 2550: 2526: 2525: 2524: 2504: 2459: 2442: 2441: 2440: 2439: 2438: 2423: 2416:Pick-up artist 2377: 2349: 2343: 2327: 2306: 2254:Pick-up artist 2241:Pick-up artist 2234: 2232: 2186: 2185: 2171:requested move 2165: 2163: 2160: 2159: 2158: 2116: 2113: 2110: 2102: 2101: 2100: 2086:Strong support 2063: 2062: 2061: 2060: 2059: 2008: 2007: 2005: 2002: 1973: 1970: 1969: 1968: 1952: 1951: 1920: 1917: 1891: 1888: 1859: 1856: 1827: 1824: 1823: 1822: 1821: 1820: 1765: 1764: 1733: 1730: 1729: 1728: 1727: 1726: 1676: 1673: 1672: 1671: 1670: 1669: 1625: 1584: 1583:Worldwide view 1581: 1557: 1554: 1553: 1552: 1494: 1493: 1464:66.190.225.214 1453: 1452: 1410: 1407: 1403: 1402: 1391: 1380: 1369: 1358: 1347: 1336: 1325: 1314: 1303: 1291: 1290: 1286: 1276: 1274: 1273: 1272: 1271: 1270: 1269: 1248: 1247: 1246: 1245: 1196: 1195: 1122: 1119: 1092: 1089: 1078: 1075: 1074: 1073: 1072: 1071: 1070: 1069: 1005: 1004: 965: 964:Seduction lair 962: 946: 945: 921: 908: 901: 891: 888: 876:68.202.217.146 862: 861: 860: 859: 858: 857: 856: 855: 845: 843: 842: 821:143.107.105.14 809: 806: 778: 775: 774: 773: 772: 771: 727:, as noted in 720: 717: 716: 715: 714: 713: 683:213.94.252.101 671: 668: 656: 653: 651: 620:This is again 582: 579: 576: 575: 570: 566: 564: 561: 560: 557: 556: 551: 546: 536: 535: 530: 524: 517: 516: 515: 514: 513: 507: 486: 483: 471: 470: 465:now serves to 450:Seduction lair 441: 429: 428: 423:now serves to 399: 387: 386: 377: 365: 350: 336: 335: 332: 331: 328: 327: 320:Mid-importance 316: 310: 309: 307: 290:the discussion 277: 276: 260: 248: 247: 245:Mid‑importance 239: 227: 226: 223: 222: 215:Low-importance 211: 205: 204: 202: 185:the discussion 172: 171: 155: 143: 142: 140:Low‑importance 134: 122: 121: 115: 104: 90: 89: 82:the discussion 74: 62: 61: 58: 57: 56: 55: 45: 24: 13: 10: 9: 6: 4: 3: 2: 3281: 3270: 3267: 3265: 3262: 3260: 3257: 3255: 3252: 3250: 3247: 3245: 3242: 3240: 3237: 3236: 3234: 3227: 3226: 3222: 3218: 3214: 3211: 3208: 3206: 3197: 3195: 3194: 3190: 3186: 3180: 3173: 3171: 3170: 3166: 3162: 3156: 3150: 3142: 3138: 3134: 3130: 3126: 3122: 3121: 3120: 3119: 3115: 3111: 3106: 3100: 3096: 3092: 3088: 3084: 3082: 3078: 3074: 3070: 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