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he "settle on his father's land"? Why would an estate be a "principality"? Became he the "Prince of the Franks", or of the
Moravians who expelled him and had no influence in this territory? Or did much Slavs come along with him, or knew they to invade Mosapurc before awaiting the Salvador Pribina, since You mention e.g. Avars living there since good two and half hundreds of years (Solitodum Avarorum) as nothing essential? I support here also the right question about Romanians there. Etc. Pribina had to flee from Nitra (inside Carpathians) just under Moravia (core land outside Carpathians) and was allowed to settle as vassal shortly for a couple of years, and that was it all. It is as simple. All other is mere neo-slavic fiction without any evidence and citation.
1069:: Nationalism has provided a significant framework for historical writing in Europe and in those former colonies influenced by Europe since the nineteenth century. According to the medievalist historian Patrick J. Geary: " modern history was born in the nineteenth century, conceived and developed as an instrument of European nationalism. As a tool of nationalist ideology, the history of Europe's nations was a great success, but it has turned our understanding of the past into a toxic waste dump, filled with the poison of ethnic nationalism, and the poison has seeped deep into popular consciousness." - truehistory
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on this map. Regarding source, it is one book that I saw in bookshop, so I will go back there in monday and I will writte exact name of the source. Regarding name of the article, I do not know which of the names is most common in
English - it should be checked anyway. By the way, I also found what was name of Feankish province - Pannonian March. Perhaps we can writte article about it if we find more data.
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Then both you and I provided sources that refer to them as princes. Quoting from your own linked source, "In ... Pribina's last documented appearance ... his territory as a principality". What do you mean by "never existing principality"? Surely you don't mean that
Pribina and Kocel never existed or
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No, there is no confusion - I just saw one historical map showing Slavic countries in the 9th century including Slavic state of
Pannonia (Balaton Principality), which also include territory between Danube and Tisa and in the south of Drava. Another state called Savia (Pannonian Croatia) is also shown
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Quote: "Ovdje je središte cijelog kraja u vrijeme kada knez
Pribina, kao franački vazal, dobija stotinu sela uz rijeku Vuku sredinom 9. stoljeća." In English: "This was the center of the whole area in the time when prince Pribina, as Frankish vassal, gained 100 villages near river Vuka in the middle
1062:
Besides of 'Great'? Moravia instead slightly
Moravia please allow me to ask the editor(s) of this nonhistoric article: When You wrote Pribina was expelled from Nitra by Mojmir and came after some adventures to Mosapurc, where he simply fled to and got an estate granted as frankish vassal, how could
847:
Florin Curta does not write of
Pribina's principality in Lower Pannonia. On the page cited above, he writes of "a Moravian prince named Moimir]], of a "Slavic polity in the Balaton Lake region", of "a Slavic principality on the Sava River" to where Pribina fled, of the "lands near the Balaton Lake"
522:
Could somebody please explain this sentence to me? "The principality was one of the several Slavic states and groups connecting the areas inhabited by Slavs before they were divided into the northern and the southern Slavs by the conquests of the Franks, the arrival of the
Magyars in Pannonia, and
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Theoretically no problem, but
Pannonian principality is also the name of Savia in some texts and you should be sure that Balaton principality is not used in English texs (have you checked that somehow?)....But what interests me is your interesting last addition of territories - as far as I know, no
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I wonder is name "Balaton
Principality" a best choice for this article? "Balaton" is just modern magyarized name of the area and in the time when this principality existed, there were no Hungarians in the area. Also, some sources that I saw about this mention the principality under names "Pannonia"
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András Róna-Tas does not write of the Slavic principality on the cited page. On other pages of his book (p.e. 243) he wrote of the estates Pribina received in Pannonia. Could we say that all the lands granted to magnates in the Middle Ages formed a principality, just because those estates were
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This article needs additional sources and verification because it may contain POV statements (counties as Blatno County?? Ptuj County?? Dudlebian County??, actual territory). Is there any primary source about name of Blatnograd? I thought it was Moosburg/Mosapurc/Urbs Paludarum in contemporary
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There are no two articles because article "Balaton Principality" was renamed to "Principality of Lower Pannonia". Name "Balaton" is anachronistic if we speak about that time period and less established in sources. It is not called "Balaton" even in Hungarian Knowledge (XXG):
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1209:. The above research should be improved. For instance "The Land Between: A History of Slovenia" does not contain the expression "Balaton Principality", but Google Books shows it among the books using this expression. Many of the hits are books based on WP articles.
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I provided original references now. Regarding name of the article, most sources that I saw, use names "Pannonia" or "Lower Pannonia", but since we already have articles about Roman provinces that had same names, it would not be the best solution to use those names.
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If my understanding is correct, most of the territories of this "principality" (including its seat near Lake Balaton) were situated in the ancient province of UPPER Pannonia. What is the reliable source based on which it is called "of Lower Pannonia"?
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I see. There was a move without a previous proposal. Nevertheless, I can accept it because the name "Balaton Principality" is even more artificial than this one (for a "principality" ruled not by "princes" but by "dukes", "markgrafs" and "counts" :)).
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For me Reuter's above text evidences that there is no consensus about the existence of a principality in Transdanubia in the 9th century. Why should we use an artificial name for a most probably never existing principality? Why should we ignore
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1272:, the name "Lower Pannonia" used to refer to different territories: the Roman province, the Friulian vassal territory (south of Drava) and the Bavarian Balaton Principality, so using "Balaton Principality" would avoid confusion.
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Those sources do not mention that "started resisting the influence of German feudal lords and clergy" he (Pribina) -presumably- applied for his own episcopate at the pope but was not successful. There was no resistance.
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Fletcher say, that it was "attempt to outflank German bishops" and Rona-Tas say that bishop of Saltzburg locked bishop of Pannonia in monastery. Locking someone in monastery is resistance. But I agree, this happened to
1247:: I am not sure that proposed name is better. When i search, both name are used in the same ammount. And lot of them are from wikipedia. Principality of Pannonia have some more results. Is that maybe beteer? --
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Slovak source clains that those territories were in the principality, so you should add which author claims that. Personally I think you or someone is confusing this Pannonia with the other Croatian Pannonia.
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If my understanding is correct this polity was a "principality" ruled by a "dux/duke" (Pribina) and later by a "comes/count" (Kocel'). What is the reliable source based on which it is called "principality"?
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Can I just point out please that whoever typed Lower Pannonia across the infobox image needs geography classes. That (between the Raba and Drava) is Upper Pannonia. If anyone knows how, please correct it.
530:." I am confused. What did the Romanians do at the Principality of Balaton after the arrival of the Magyars in Pannonia? Maybe I do not know something, however I think the sentence is obscure.
820:"Although a Frankish vassal, it later started resisting the influence of German feudal lords and clergy, trying to organize an independent Slavic archdiocese" Is there any source about this?
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You'll have to take that up with historians like Timothy Reuter, Richard Fletcher and Simon MacLean. But really there's no contradiction between being a Slav prince and a Frankish count.
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http://www.amazon.de/Conversio-Bagoariorum-Carantanorum-Erzbischofs-Theotmar/dp/3775254153/ref=sr_1_1/028-3021403-2442920?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1189800444&sr=8-1--
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Thank you for the above sources (even if my favorite is the first one which refers to the "Principality of Lower Pannonia" and its rulers "Markgraf Pribina"). What about
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Why is it relevant? Does he write of a principality? Transylvania was ruled by the kings of Hungary - could we refer to Transylvania as Danubian/Tisan Kingdom?
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OK. Since the 19th century there are territories named after a lake. Were there realms named after a lake in the Middle Ages? Who were the princes of Balaton?
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Sure, there are various titles used for its rulers in various sources, but "prince" is among them, so I would say that title is supported by the sources.
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OK. I will look at the name when I have the time. I am quite sure that the problem will be that the principality does not occur in English texts at all.
1111:, and that editors who critiqued it didn't link to an improved search. A further discussion with better evidence might produce a different result. --
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Gbooks hits has "Balaton principality" (7) versus "Principality of Lower Pannonia" (4). In Slovak, "Blatenské kniežatstvo" (14) is used.--
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Sorry, but mechanical change "Slavic" to "Frankish" is not expression of need of sources. I understand your POV, but please be honest...--
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Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a
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Thank you. And was there a principality in Transdanubia in the 9th century? If there was a principality, who were its rulers?
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OK, but a wikipedia is not a sufficient source for things like that, we have to know the original source of this statement.
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which seems to be more acceptable with a reliable source. Later other theories/versions with other sources may be added.
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What is Balaton Principality? Are there realms named after a lake? Are there principalities ruled by counts?
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This article was originally about the Balaton Principality but seems to have turned into a content fork on
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or "Pannonian Principality", so perhaps we can change name of this article into "Pannonian Principality"?
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granted to Pribina. Therefore, there is no reference to Pribina's Slavic principality of Lower Pannonia.
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It does not contain that statement "Slavic principality". It talks only about Pribina's "principality".
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on Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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I did read that there was Germanic continuity (Gepids) toward the 'age of Avars' in Transdanubia. See:
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on 31 December 2020. For the contribution history and old versions of the merged article please see
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There was no state named after Byzantium in the Middle Ages either. Hasn't stopped historians.
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What is Balaton Principality? Is it like Loch Ness Kingdom or Lake Ontario Marquesate?
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bones as waste in a territory of Zalavár by Hungarian archeologist Szőke Béla Miklós
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I do not know. Do we need to dedicate an article to a never existing principality?
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Is there any presumably Germanic cemetery in the 8-9th centuries in Transdanubia?
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https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Balaton_Principality&oldid=447618398
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Some sources, that Lower Pannonia was Slavic principality (subdued to Franks):
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Re-read Reuter. He has Transdanubia ruled by a Slav prince in both scenarios.
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Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a
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1464:. And finally deleting this page name. But that is way too much work for me.
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Try the conversion of the bavarians and carantans of Salzburg early sources,
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It was a Frankish vassal duchy.....I've inserted some sources about it.
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Pribina and Kocel under Frankish suzerainty. What are you getting at?
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and presenting a POV as a fact through using this artificial name?
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Neither of them were princes. How could they rule a principality?
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Neither of them were princes. How could they rule a principality?
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To which works do you refer? For instance, Oto Luthar (in his
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a case of Slavic, I guess Slovakian nationalism in Pannonia?
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didn't construct the Google search per the instructions at
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On the page 105 down is mentioned title Pannonian prince.--
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What do you think the province of Ontario is named after?
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The following discussion is an archived discussion of a
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http://en.wikipedia.org/Nationalism_and_ancient_history
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in euratlas.com , it is called 'country on the Save"
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and the remainder into a new article dedicated to the
1448:. I suggest butchering the article merging part with
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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a
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by a disruptive editor who has since quit wikipedia
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1094:. No further edits should be made to this section.
1375:which wa←s UPPER Pannonia *never* Lower Pannonia.
1304:. No further edits should be made to this section.
1147:, "Principality of Lower Pannonia" has only 5 hits
1144:– More frequent name, it has 73 Google Books hits
1595:) does not use the term "Balaton Principality" (
841:Southeastern Europe in the Middle Ages, 500-1250
955:For Pribina´s try for independent diocese, see
66:does not require a rating on Knowledge (XXG)'s
964:Hungarians and Europe in the Early Middle Ages
928:Hungarians and Europe in the Early Middle Ages
698:http://hu.wikipedia.org/Pannóniai_Fejedelemség
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1328:I agree, this article needs to be refocused.
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1345:
1342:
1341:
1340:
1312:
1309:
1307:
1306:
1292:requested move
1286:
1285:
1284:
1267:
1242:
1221:
1200:
1134:
1132:
1097:
1096:
1082:requested move
1076:
1074:
1073:Requested move
1071:
1048:
1045:
1026:
1023:
1022:
1021:
1020:
1019:
988:
987:
952:
951:
950:
949:
948:
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921:
920:
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771:
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732:
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688:
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597:
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562:
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519:
516:
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481:
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370:
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306:
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291:
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236:
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202:the discussion
189:
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108:
96:
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90:
78:
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24:
13:
10:
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2:
1793:
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1542:
1538:
1534:
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1532:
1528:
1524:
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1514:
1510:
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1505:
1504:
1500:
1496:
1492:
1491:
1490:
1486:
1482:
1478:
1477:
1476:
1475:
1471:
1467:
1466:188.29.164.60
1463:
1459:
1455:
1451:
1447:
1439:
1429:
1425:
1421:
1417:
1416:
1415:
1414:
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1396:
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1370:
1369:User:PANONIAN
1366:
1361:
1360:
1356:
1352:
1351:92.40.248.110
1343:
1339:
1335:
1331:
1330:188.29.164.60
1327:
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1310:
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1303:
1298:
1293:
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1212:
1208:
1207:WP:COMMONNAME
1204:
1201:
1199:
1195:
1191:
1187:
1186:WP:COMMONNAME
1183:
1180:
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1178:
1177:
1173:
1169:
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1149:
1146:
1142:
1137:
1131:
1130:
1125:
1121:
1117:
1110:
1109:WP:COMMONNAME
1106:
1105:the nominator
1102:
1095:
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1068:
1064:
1061:
1057:
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1031:
1024:
1018:
1014:
1010:
1005:
1004:
1003:
999:
995:
990:
989:
986:
982:
978:
974:
972:
967:
965:
960:
959:
954:
953:
946:
942:
938:
933:
932:
931:
929:
925:
924:
923:
922:
915:
911:
907:
903:
902:
901:
897:
893:
889:
888:
887:
883:
879:
875:
874:
869:
867:
863:
859:
855:
851:
846:
845:
844:
842:
838:
837:
835:
834:
831:
827:
823:
819:
817:
813:
809:
805:
804:
801:
797:
793:
789:
788:
787:
786:
782:
778:
769:
755:
752:
750:
744:
743:
742:
741:
740:
739:
738:
737:
736:
735:
734:
733:
724:
720:
716:
711:
710:
709:
706:
704:
699:
694:
693:
692:
691:
690:
689:
684:
680:
676:
672:
668:
667:
666:
665:
662:
659:
657:
651:
648:
645:
642:
639:
636:
633:
630:
629:
628:
627:
623:
619:
613:
612:
608:
604:
596:What is this?
595:
593:
590:
586:
582:
578:
574:
568:
560:
556:
552:
548:
544:
543:
542:
541:
537:
533:
529:
528:
517:
515:
514:
510:
506:
505:Squash Racket
502:
501:Western Slavs
494:
492:
491:
488:
485:
464:
460:
456:
452:
446:
445:
444:
443:
442:
441:
440:
439:
438:
437:
436:
435:
434:
433:
422:
419:
417:
412:
410:
403:
402:
401:
400:
399:
398:
397:
396:
395:
394:
385:
382:
378:
377:
376:
375:
374:
373:
372:
371:
364:
361:
359:
354:
352:
345:
341:
337:
336:
335:
334:
333:
332:
331:
329:
325:
321:
317:
313:
302:
299:
295:
294:
293:
292:
289:
286:
284:
279:
277:
270:
269:
268:
267:
264:
258:
257:
254:
252:
247:
245:
234:
220:
203:
199:
195:
194:
186:
185:Serbia portal
175:
173:
170:
166:
165:
161:
158:
155:
152:
148:
136:
119:
115:
114:
109:
106:
102:
101:
97:
94:
91:
88:
84:
79:
75:
69:
65:
61:
57:
52:
51:
43:
39:
35:
30:
25:
18:
17:
1712:216.8.143.76
1706:
1679:216.8.143.76
1651:216.8.143.76
1618:216.8.143.76
1613:
1592:
1579:216.8.143.76
1551:216.8.143.76
1523:216.8.143.76
1495:216.8.143.76
1443:
1440:Content fork
1388:
1362:
1347:
1314:
1296:
1289:
1269:
1248:
1244:
1227:
1223:
1202:
1181:
1161:
1153:
1133:
1101:no consensus
1100:
1098:
1086:
1079:
1065:
1052:78.92.241.92
1050:
1028:
970:
963:
957:
927:
865:
840:
773:
748:
702:
655:
614:
599:
571:— Preceding
564:
524:
521:
498:
480:
455:84.2.186.235
415:
408:
357:
350:
307:
282:
275:
259:
250:
243:
238:
191:
111:
74:WikiProjects
63:
1302:move review
1162:victor falk
1092:move review
449:—Preceding
310:—Preceding
42:its history
1755:Categories
1705:You said,
1232:Norden1990
1168:Fakirbakir
1116:HairedGirl
1034:Fakirbakir
994:Fakirbakir
906:Fakirbakir
878:Fakirbakir
822:Fakirbakir
808:Fakirbakir
777:Fakirbakir
547:Fakirbakir
532:Fakirbakir
487:Vargatamas
32:page were
1190:bobrayner
1154:Relisted.
775:sources.
527:Romanians
518:Romanians
1612:Reuter,
1124:contribs
1007:Kocel.--
973:, p. 350
749:PANONIAN
703:PANONIAN
656:PANONIAN
631:Sorces:
585:contribs
577:Omen1229
573:unsigned
499:I added
451:unsigned
409:PANONIAN
351:PANONIAN
324:contribs
312:unsigned
276:PANONIAN
244:PANONIAN
64:redirect
1693:Borsoka
1665:Borsoka
1637:Borsoka
1633:WP:NPOV
1600:Borsoka
1565:Borsoka
1537:Borsoka
1509:Borsoka
1481:Borsoka
1420:Borsoka
1395:Pribina
1270:Support
1252:Ąnαșταη
1245:Comment
1224:Comment
1211:Borsoka
1182:Support
937:Borsoka
850:Borsoka
770:Content
715:Borsoka
675:Borsoka
618:Borsoka
603:Borsoka
340:Vukovar
1205:, per
1203:Oppose
1184:, per
1120:(talk)
416:(talk)
358:(talk)
316:Hxseek
283:(talk)
251:(talk)
207:Serbia
198:Serbia
157:Serbia
70:scale.
34:merged
1393:with
1319:oupan
1230:"? --
1114:Brown
1009:Yopie
977:Yopie
892:Yopie
792:Yopie
62:This
36:into
1716:talk
1697:talk
1683:talk
1669:talk
1655:talk
1641:talk
1622:talk
1604:talk
1583:talk
1569:talk
1555:talk
1541:talk
1527:talk
1513:talk
1499:talk
1485:talk
1470:talk
1424:talk
1403:talk
1381:talk
1355:talk
1334:talk
1311:Name
1278:talk
1274:Zhmr
1258:ταlκ
1236:talk
1215:talk
1194:talk
1172:talk
1056:talk
1038:talk
1013:talk
998:talk
981:talk
968:and
941:talk
910:talk
896:talk
882:talk
854:talk
826:talk
812:talk
796:talk
781:talk
719:talk
679:talk
622:talk
607:talk
581:talk
551:talk
536:talk
509:talk
459:talk
381:Juro
320:talk
298:Juro
263:Juro
235:Name
1294:.
1122:• (
1757::
1718:)
1699:)
1685:)
1671:)
1657:)
1643:)
1624:)
1606:)
1585:)
1571:)
1557:)
1543:)
1529:)
1515:)
1501:)
1487:)
1472:)
1426:)
1405:)
1397:.
1383:)
1357:)
1336:)
1280:)
1238:)
1217:)
1196:)
1188:.
1174:)
1152:--
1150:.
1138:→
1084:.
1058:)
1040:)
1015:)
1000:)
983:)
975:--
961:,
943:)
912:)
898:)
884:)
856:)
828:)
814:)
798:)
783:)
721:)
681:)
649:,
646:,
643:,
640:,
637:,
634:,
624:)
609:)
587:)
583:•
553:)
538:)
511:)
461:)
326:)
322:•
1714:(
1695:(
1681:(
1667:(
1653:(
1639:(
1620:(
1602:(
1581:(
1567:(
1553:(
1539:(
1525:(
1511:(
1497:(
1483:(
1468:(
1422:(
1401:(
1379:(
1353:(
1332:(
1317:Z
1276:(
1261:)
1255:(
1234:(
1213:(
1192:(
1170:(
1126:)
1054:(
1036:(
1011:(
996:(
979:(
939:(
908:(
894:(
880:(
852:(
824:(
810:(
794:(
779:(
717:(
677:(
620:(
605:(
579:(
549:(
534:(
507:(
457:(
318:(
120:.
76::
44:.
Text is available under the Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike License. Additional terms may apply.
