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Talk:Pro-Beijing camp (Hong Kong)

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in respect of Hong Kong is not the point with which we are to be primarily concerned. The question is what is meant by the two Chinese terms. I am frankly astonished at what lmmnhn has suggested about 建制派 and 親建制派. Those editors who read Chinese will instantly see that this is not a case of abbreviation at all. It is plain and simple qualification by 親. You have the camp itself and then you have its sympathisers, affiliates, or even "running dogs" as the PRC used to be fond of calling them. There is a fundamental problem with the rote-blabbing of "camp" all the time, as if one could put one's hands around such a thing in any political system, but leaving that to one side for the moment, there is no problem at all seeing what is staring us in the face in the Chinese terms here. If some members of the Chinese press use the terms with reckless disregard that is no basis for replicating that lack of care in WP. In any event, we have seen the climb-down from Lmmnhn. What we are left with is either to leave the English as a faithful translation of the Chinese (i.e. establishment and pro-establishment) or take out establishment/建制派 entirely.
530: 658: 630: 520: 492: 1787:, then Pro-Beijing camp should not be a redirect here but should be a disambiguation page for this and the Macau article, and any other relevant articles. If we are going to keep the redirect, then there is no point keeping this in parenthetical disambiguated form. The outcome of the above RM seems to suggest Pro-Beijing camp should be a disambiguation page, and I considered changing it myself but frankly there are way way way too many direct links to 985: 352: 318: 362: 668: 2058: 1089: 975: 947: 596: 506: 243: 452: 287: 1051: 734: 338: 961: 644: 428: 21: 1239:
Agreed with above; inclusion on the infobox gives the impression that her position is 'Chief Executive of the Pro-Beijing camp' rather than the CE who happens to be from the Pro-Beijing camp. It should be removed from the infobox but mention given in the body text that her, Tsang Yok-sing, and other
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Noted Lmmnhn's view has changed. Lmmnhn rejected my edit on the basis that "'Establishment camp' does not exist in the English media" but now concedes that it does. But that leading, highly-respected international purveyors of news about Hong Kong (AFP, FT, etc.) use the term "establishment camp"
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either since it appeared in the public press, and was not phrased as fact in the article, but was merely a comment on a legitimate public discussion. I would also argue that there are plenty of American, British, Australian, etc political figures whose articles mention suspected links to organised
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I've just read the policy and it seems to say, fairly explicitly, that it is meant to apply to people who are not public figures, which does not include anybody named in this section. Also, having links to triads is not in itself a crime, so this policy should probably not apply to this section at
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Pro-Beijing camp basically is an alliance of pro-Beijing political parties that would field politicians as candidates in elections. It's not an ideology alliance for anyone. Carrie Lam is "aligned" (sharing the ideology) with Pro-Beijing camp, but she isn't part of the Pro-Beijing camp because she
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It seems this anonymous contributor may have inadvertently transposed part of his/her comment because 建制派 was in and 親建制派 was not. Secondly, one is not to be misled by the opening statement "pro-Beijing camp is just called '建制派'" which is just sloppy translation in the comment: Beijing does not
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Pro-Beijing camp is not a party. It is a political alliance, the "united front" of the "patriotic forces" by the People's Republic of China who have repeatedly said that the SAR government shall be ruled by the patriotic forces. To claim that one person is not affiliated with any political party
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It is interesting that how you can make such a rant between I saying "does not exist" and "hardly exist", as the meaning will be the same: that "establishment camp" is hardly in use and therefore should not be put in the header. I googled it and there are only 10 results with "establishment
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insists to put the name "establishment camp" in the header, but the fact is there is hardly a thing called "establishment camp" in the English media. What most of them use is "pro-establishment camp", which means "親建制派" in Chinese, and "建制派" is merely an abbreviation of the term.
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Except they are literally still members of those parties, Carrie Lam is not (by law) a member of any political party. This also doesn't address my previous point about giving a misleading impression in the article that she is the 'CE of the Pro-BJ camp', which she is
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It appears someone is very much confused with "pro-Beijing faction" and "Pro-Beijing camp". Carrie Lam as Chief Executive is non-partisan, even she's pro-Beijing but she doesn't represent Pro-Beijing camp in the government. Her name should be removed from infobox.
1795:) most of which look like they are indeed targeting this article and I don't have a script nor know of any bot I can invoke to fix that. Frankly I'm not sure if the above RM properly considered the primary topic issue, and the large number of links compared to 2082:
until a consensus is reached, and anyone, including you, is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.
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In Hong Kong and Macau media, the pro-Beijing camp is just called "建制派", and it is NOT an abbreviation of "親建制派". The Chinese name need NOT be a direct translation of English name. It is offending to include "親建制派" but not "建制派" in this article.
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Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article until the discussion has
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How about adding it to 'See also'? The English-speaking world does not distinguish between "radical pro-Beijing" and moderate "pro-Beijing," as they are both authoritarians after all. However, "激進建制派" is even used in media in Hong Kong.
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I would not call the CE a "municipal politician", they are the head of the government for a political entity and more than notable in HK, which I think would be sufficient. I don't see that this section violates the
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specifies CE cannot be a member of political party. Hong Kong CE election is not a presidential election, Carrie Lam wasn't a candidate for any political party in Pro-Beijing camp when she ran for CE election.
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arise in either, for a start, and, if the commenter is correct that this is not a case of abbreviation, then the only way to preserve a distinction is to translate them "pro-Beijing camp" and "Beijing camp".
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The Chinese version of this article and the Pro-Dem Camp article includes the EC, while the English article of the Pro-BJ camp of Macau also includes NPC delegates, thoughts on adding it here?
1637:- Just keep it simple, no need for the "Hong Kong" bit. "Pro-Beijing camp" is really the common name for the Pro-Beijing camp of Hong Kong, rarely you would think of Pro-Beijing camp of Macao. 1671:
there should more topics out there than just these two RECENTISM topics of Macau and HK. What about Beijing vs Taipei? The Pro-Beijing camp favours PRC having the UN seat over the ROC; etc --
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Clearly it is not since we are discussing the "Pro-Beijing camp". Which is what it is, in the UN, and the IOC. It is lacking historical perspective, hence RECENTISM. --
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article, but why do I keep removing it? 激進建制派 is a political term that is strictly used. If the title Radical pro-Beijing camp is a problem, you just have to
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in the media, which 3 of them are not addressing the Hong Kong's pro-Beijing camp. If you can provide evidences for your claims that would be very helpful.
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You really need to include citations for this stuff. And, as for the page you are wikilinking to, I have yet to review the sources there. Please avoid
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also existed. Lastly, i would like to see Google Ngram or other evidence from external source to prove it is common name/primary topic or else.
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I would ask that, before this merge of material be completed, there be a review of the material in order to ensure that the sources being used
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Not sure "Pro-Beijing camp" or "pro-establishment camp" is the common name of the coalition. But i would say there is no primary topic if
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Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a
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I oppose the color changing for the Pro-Beijing camp, as the whole camp is still controlled by the red (CCP), rather than the blue (
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because I am concerned that much of that content is material I previously reviewed and found failed verification at the previous
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Hong Kong is much larger than Macau, so usage and significance for the pro-Beijing camp in Hong Kong far exceeds that in Macau.
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is a very serious policy, and the para as written was not compliant with it. I'd strongly suggest you review that policy.
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I'd hesitate to call a municipal politician a public figure as described by that definition. And furthermore review
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related articles on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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for the term. No prejudice against speedy renomination if the nominator wants to make the case for that (pinging
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Should the page use blue as political colour? Most of the Hong Kong media and even Chinese state media
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after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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such Pro-Beijing figures were aligned with this camp while also holding non-partisan positions.--
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I feel like I should point out that if the argument is that this is not the primary topic for
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and so on gives results for both (and even for Japan, but these seems pretty obscure). Adding
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crime, or to crimes committed themselves, so this seems acceptable in this instance to me.
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when adding content and consider tagging or removing unsourced information.
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therefore is not affiliated with any political camp is totally untrue.
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AWB is the solution. I just don't have time to fix it myself BTW.
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Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this
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said pro-Beijing camp won 89 district councillor seats in
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I will only recover the part that you didn't add in the
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isn't a member of any party within the Pro-Beijing camp.
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Knowledge:Articles for deletion/Radical pro-Beijing camp
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Blue vs. Yellow: Divide is ripping families in Hong Kong
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A discussion is taking place as to whether the article
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I've reverted the significant new additions made by @
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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a
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is suitable for inclusion in Knowledge according to
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1264:Donald Trump 1262:which shows 1222: 1169:User:Sirlanz 1167: 1135: 1110: 1106: 1102: 1095: 1063: 1059: 1037: 1013:Conservatism 1004:conservatism 997: 953:Conservatism 909: 908: 897: 896: 885: 884: 868: 867: 862:Image needed 860: 859: 847: 846: 830: 829: 818: 817: 798: 797: 754: 746: 742: 720: 680: 608: 604: 582: 542: 536:China portal 472: 464: 460: 436: 414: 374: 305:WikiProjects 264: 248: 224: 218: 210: 203: 197: 191: 185: 175: 147: 72:This is the 44: 40: 26: 2127:inclusion. 1866:User:Lmmnhn 1770:move review 1724:Weak oppose 1689:Off-topic. 1483:move review 1368:WP:BLPCRIME 1359:WP:BLPCRIME 1268:Moon Jae-in 1096:written in 201:free images 84:not a forum 57:its history 2212:Categories 1975:the title. 1820:Matthew hk 1605:Necrothesp 1572:Matthew hk 1546:WP:TWODABS 1219:Carrie Lam 1064:photograph 892:...orphans 877:(5,424) • 747:photograph 609:photograph 465:photograph 2191:Simonm223 2166:Simonm223 2150:article. 2129:Simonm223 2090:Simonm223 2086:finished. 2029:Simonm223 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