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we love, and write music hopefully that is challenging and inspiring to people", right?. An attempt to distance themselves from the
Christian industry is evidence enough of their intentions. I would like you to show me where these explicit Christian lyrics are. I mean explicit. I mean if somebody unfamiliar with them heard their lyrics they could identify them as Christians. Removing this from the lead is not bias. It is a controversial issue. Being an American band is not. Its fact. Nobody is saying they aren't an American band. But here we have a band critics call Christian that tries to distances themselves and says we just want to make music. Yes, they were on a Christian label for a short time with BEC, a Christian sub-label of Tooth & Nail, but now they are simply with Tooth & Nail which is not an official Christian label despite their many Christian artists. --
1627:, meaning that "Christian" music is an industry just like any other music industry (and I believe it actually is one of the largest.) Which industry the band wants to associated with is its own business. So, basically, while the band has stated that it doesn't want to be pigeon-holed (who does?) and has at times put a distance between itself and the Christian market, does not negate the fact that it is sourced by reliable, verifiable sources as a Christian band. (As an aside, much of the "Christian music" nowadays is like saying that there's "Christian plumbing," it makes a distinction that really is pointless. But my opinion doesn't matter, reliable sources do.)--
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what he says in this whole debate. Bands like
Thousand Foot Krutch, Emery and Anberlin are not listed as Christian although they are also played on Christian radio stations and claim personal belief in God. What makes Project 86 any different? The Christian title is sourced using reviews by Christian outlets..so should we post reviews from all of the other non-Christian outlets and the Evangel Society to prove that they shouldn't be labeled as Christian. Or will that be undone, reversed and blocked by the fans who have some sort of agenda on this artist's page.
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not wish to give an answer and would rather let his actions speak for him. P86 has been going to secular venues for this particular reason: allowing people who would not be particularly interested in their message to have a chance to hear what they have to say. With that, we're pretty much forced to use the sources. Also, don't forget that they are joining up with Scream The Prayer for a new tour, which if you know, is a
Christian festival that plays exclusively Christian music, unlike Cornerstone (which plays a mix).
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one needs that definition in their occupations to be who they are. Their music will speak for itself and so will the guys. The Scream the Prayer tour is playing in clubs and churches across the country and has guys that are
Christians and guys that are not involved. Andrew S has not stated that he wants he band to be labeled in any way in the last 9 years and all of the old sourcing is not current or relevant to how the band feels today.
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not sing about Jesus, salvation, the cross, or any other
Christian themes for that matter. Sometimes they sing about God, but that could hardly be considered evidence enough. The belief in God itself also does not automatically affiliate one with Christianity as many religions are monotheist. Also, a host of artists from all genres sing about God and are not classified as Christian—humorously,
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2219:). It's also unclear the band's exact relationship to Christian music - it's noted that they played at a Christian festival and a fair few of the sources specialize in contemporary Christian music (HM, CCM, Jesus Freak Hideout, etc) but nothing in the rest of the article really makes it clear if they fall at least partially into that sphere. A good bit of work is needed here.
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Christian music industry. You're right. This is a pretty stupid argument. Project 86 wants to have their cake and eat it too. I don't know why I'm standing up for them when they can't be honest about their beliefs. The
Christian adjectives can stay in the lead and infobox. I'm adjusting the sentence in musical style to reflect their on-the-fence attitude. --
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Okay, time for someone else to step in here. Project 86 is sourced as a
Christian band by multiple different reliable sources, which is the final say on Knowledge regardless of what we think of it and even regardless of whether it is true or not. Now, Project 86 has at times distanced itself from the
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People feel
Project 86 is a Christian band because publications (primarily Christian ones) regard them as such. I argue that this affiliation is based on their world view and not their actual music and is therefore arbitrary. Please consider that none of their lyrics are explicitly Christian; they do
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If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on
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I'm not disputing the fact that they are marketed as a
Christian group and such. I'm not disputing the fact that all these sources say they are a Christian band. However, they are labeling Project 86 a Christian band for the wrong reasons. They are not really Christian band. They just flirt with the
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You are assuming. It says that they "During this time, Project 86 distanced themselves from the
Christian market ... 'to give precedence to their newfound mainstream audience.'". You said that their intention was something other than that. As for a short time, do you mean longer than they had a deal
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One counter claim is Schwab basically saying "we're just a band, not a Christian band". This claim is hardly as fantastical as one like "we are a disco band" and thus it must be seriously considered. Another reliable source is their lyrics, which give absolutely no evidence of Christendom. This is a
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As for the purely musical genre, Project 86 is generally considered a rock band. Sources confirm this. I will not dispute the fact that they were metal in the past (nu metal), but they are not anymore. I would like to point out that I thoroughly researched this article and articulated as clearly and
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A real Christian band espouses lyrics that explicitly mention Jesus, salvation, etc. While Schwab's lyrics may delve into spiritual matters, they have never been explicitly Christian. So by definition, Project 86 is not a Christian band. It comes down to this, we verify claims made on Knowledge with
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I'm not assuming anything. The article says they have distanced themselves--you can look it up if you like. Spinning my wheels? I pored over the subject matter and rewrote this entire article. I know what the band thinks and I know what the critics think. There is a controversy. And it has not been
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No, Schwab meant that they weren't going to go in there and spill their beliefs to everybody, but instead keep it to themselves. We could argue either way with the quote. The point is he does not want to be labeled a Christian band, just a band. After all "the goal has been to just write music that
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If the information in the article is cited to a reliable source and is relevant, it should stay. It really doesn't matter what Schwab says or you think; ideally, Knowledge should be unbiased and fair in its coverage. Bill Clinton probably doesn't like seeing the controversy section in his wikipedia
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It seems to me that it would matter what Schwab says since the basis of calling them a Christian band revolves around quotes coming directly from him. This is not a corporation or some public entity its 3 people who make music. The lyrics are written by Schwab which again goes back to it mattering
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The members of P86 are Christians but they do not want their band labeled as a Christian band because of the stigma attached and the often polarizing effect this has on people who do not share their belief system. It goes back to the old adage of a Christian plumber or a Christian car salesman..no
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Okay, gunna retype this. Andrew S. has the goal in mind to make the band take an approach that is not evangelical. Not all Christian bands are evanagelical in effect, and prefer to remain Christian in message and action, but tend to not care if one labels their music as such. As he stated, he does
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Sorry, but I really don't see any point to including such information in the article. It's just a very tired subject, whether "blah" is or isn't a Christian-whatever, and I think that Andrew and Project 86 have been trying to distance themselves from this whole debate for quite a while now. Andrew
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Andrew Schwab: All I can say is this: We have never wanted to use God to market our band. And we have always tried to present God in a creative way, so as to not alienate anyone who does not subscribe to our belief system. We have definitely never wanted to appeal solely to the Christian market.
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They answer the interviews pretty straight forward and have for as long as they have been a band. This isn't a "debate" over their classification, you may not think they are a Christina band but they have stated and repeatedly affirmed this to be true. In the link you provided he stated that his
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I think it's safe to say they are. If you have ever listened to Christianrock.net, then you will hear dedicated Christian band members "welcoming" you. Among them is Andrew of Project 86. I think a little common sense applied here should clear that up. Not only that but many songs have Christian
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I created an article for the new album Rival Factions. It still needs some work I think, like renaming it to Rival Factions instead of Rival Factions (album), and redirecting issues such as Rival Factions linking to that article instead of to the Project 86 page. If you feel like helping out, go
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I think this argument has been settled regarding their status as a Christian band. The split is there because the article is written in Harvard reference style which I implemented. It is a citation style used by many articles and a personal choice because I believe it is cleaner. If you want to
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j_hagquistFun shot from somewhere in Europe. With all due respect to American music fans...European music fans are quite a bit more enthusiastic. I said "with all due respect"... #project86 #daaden #musicwithfriends #shakeandbake #thatjusthappened #aykeknows #glguitars #asatdeluxe @arnesteinar
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Christian band.'" (emphasis mine). It means they don't want to be pigeon-holed as nothing but a Christian band Another reliable source is the lyrics which give a great deal of evidence of their Christian faith. Removing the fact that they're a Christian band from the lede is bias and the worst
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BOOKS are not Christian writings, and even that he left vague. He has stated repeatedly that his music is. He even states in the article that he's had enough of the question, "This question has been posed for ages, and in no way am I qualified to give a complete answer. Nor do I desire to."
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code. Also notice that when it's done this way, you don't have to include it in the "References" section because it automatically goes in "Notes". Personally, this is my favorite way to handle references. I think it's easier, for both the editor and the reader. Also, I tend to use the
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solution possible. Might as well remove that they're Americans and a band. They're distributed by a Christian label. They have recently tried to distance themselves from the Christian-only marketplace, but that doesn't change their status in the sub-industry. Most importantly, there are
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But yet again, are the sources unreliable? You may feel free to continue to discuss this on your own, but unless you can prove the three references cannot be trusted, they stay. They summarize an aspect of the band, and it is not unreasonable to include the adjective in the lede.
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page, but there it is. I will agree that a whole section dedicated to their beliefs is going too far and the information is outdated. I am working hard on this article privately on my user page so people can learn about them in an unbiased, comprehensive, and respectable way. --
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The only true former member of P86 is Alex Albert. No one else was involved in the business partnership of Project 86 nore anyone else listed as a writer any of the bands catalog of songs. All other players have been temporary and never actually a part of the group. July 2009
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As you can see, this webpage has the "all pages" option. I highly suggest that you post that URL; not only is it just easier, you don't have to separate it into "p. 1" and "p. 2". Then when you refer to this source in the future, all you have to do is write the
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said they were a disco band, we could argue all we wanted that they weren't, but the source would stand. If we want to show how the source is wrong, we could offer counter sources to make the point, but until that source is proven invalid, it would stand. So
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three sources and countless unreliable fans call them Christian metal (or Christian rock if you would rather) it's the editor's job to offer counter-claims, not simply remove the claims because of some personal opinion regardless how valid it is.
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This method retains what you're trying to do, I think. Notice that the entry is highlighted in the "Notes" section, allowing the reader to click on the reference instead of having to scroll up and down. This is exactly the same method used in
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contentious issue. I thoroughly researched this article and wrote it to be as neutral as possible. Undoubtedly, saying they are an "American rock band" and then addressing the issues fairly is the most unbiased (and best) solution possible. --
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The band has spent the middle of the year in Los Angeles recording 18 new tracks including an acoustic EP. With a career spanning nearly 20 years and selling over half a million records Andrew Schwab feels this album is a special landmark for
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Noj_R, I see that you've starting working on the references as per my GA review. I thought that I'd demonstrate what I mean here, for clarity's sake. There are two ways to handle the references in a well-written, well-researched article.
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I took a look at the references and listen to some of the older material, and I agree that it has a Nu Metal sound. I think to cut down on any changes or objections, it would be wise to put one of the refrences in the infobox.
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You are assuming why they wanted to distance themselves from the Christian marketplace. Again. Unless you have something that makes those references unreliable, we can remove it. Otherwise you're just spinning your wheels.
653:-Ahem- the point of this ... The proseline can probably be deleted, because I've put most of the information regarding the new record, Alex Albert leaving the band etc. in the Rival Factions article. What do you guys think?
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A discussion between two people does not really constitute consensus about a controversial edit which makes a significant claim. Have you got any sources to cite which explicitly name this a “Christian rock” genre band?
1412:: we do not regard him as a Mormon science fiction author simply because he writes science fiction and has large affiliations with Mormonism. He is simply a science fiction author as Project 86 are simply a rock band.
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Schwab stated on episode 227 of the OMNI podcast that Project 86 is not a Christian band. While it is a label that they were previously given, it is no longer appropriate for the band and does not reflect the band's
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Why were all of the "former band members" (besides Alex Albert) removed from this page? I understand removing Jason Gerkin (as he was never REALLY a member), but Corey Edelman and Ethan Luck should probably remain.
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Yes, I see that. I think that this is a good way to set up the references/notes sections for articles about bands. Now I will go through and make sure the rest of the review has been satisfied before I pass it.
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reliable sources. If a reliable source says something important, we are obligated to include it in the article and cite the reference. We then make sure zealots do not undo these edits. Its all pretty simple. --
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I agree that the argument has been settled, but yet a new editor is coming in and unsettling it. Will have to investigate the Harvard style. We may need to figure out how to get a bot to enforce the style.
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is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Knowledge policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
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The problem with the recent change is that it removes the references from the portion of the article it is supposed to be referencing. This is unacceptable bu Knowledge's standards. --
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Changed the "you can hear one of their songs in a vive le bam episode" part, since they've been in quite a few mtv show backgrounds. That sentence is too fanboyish.
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with any mainstream label? They're still signed to Tooth & Nail, a sub-label of the EMI Christian Music Group, and they're marketed to the Christian market
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Hey, so it would seem, like the normal Project 86 cycle, the band got new members. There was no announcement, but it would seem that Mike "Norman" Williams is
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Two of their songs off of the album "...And the Rest Will Follow" are featured on Arena Football for PS2; would that be alright to include in the article?
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abishai_jFlying out on Wednesday to play a festival with these boys again. Anybody gonna be hanging at Soulfest? One show means a musician is in the band?
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3) You still insist on capitalizing the instruments ("bassist", not "Bassist"). I've had to fix multiple, multiple articles where you've done this. Read
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I have added editor comments to the article at the contentious spots to discourage well intentioned users from removing the "Christian" label. --
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resolved. I'm going to see about getting other editors to contribute to this discussion because obviously you will not address valid points. --
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In short nothing is supported. You're reading between the lines of the second one and in the case of the other two, offering wishful thinking.
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When the band comes out and says "we are not a Christian band and never were" you would have a point about them not being a Christian band.
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I'm not actually sure if "Harvard style" is the correct name to be honest. Regardless, I modeled the citation style after the one used in
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So my point is, is it really of any major benefit to bring (or at least invite) this whole Christian-vs-secular-band debate to Knowledge?
2125:@aschwab86 @reinblom @theproject86 @glguitars Where exactly does it say anything about Hagquist joining or even performing with the band.
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norm_chomskyAnd here's a picture of me getting sunburnt. #spf1000 #project86 #p86 #uprisefest doesn't state that is back in the band.
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When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
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When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
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I was indeed emulating the style used in the Beatles. I will address the smaller issues shortly. Thank you for your patience. --
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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Information should not be removed from wikipedia without a valid explanation being given. Reverting until further notice.
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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https://web.archive.org/web/20110610163734/http://www.hmmagazine.com/2009/08/scream-the-prayer-tour-2009-concert-review/
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This older (2010) good article has seen a lot of uncited text creep in, as well as some tone issues (see for instance
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and related topics on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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LET THEM PUT THIS PAGE IN SPANISH SINCE LATIN MUCHES WANT TO TASTE ON THIS BAND Y THEY CAN NOT BE ABLE TO PLEASE
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There is a discussion above. Isn't that enough? Would you prefer additional references or a different term?
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https://web.archive.org/web/20080704082637/http://www.hmmagazine.com/reviews/album/p/project_860204.php
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I moved this to a new section because the previous section had not been updated for half a year. --
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is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under
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You're twisted the quote. The actual quote is: "We're not going to go in there and say 'Hey we're
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If they claimed that they were a disco band but didn't play disco would that make them such? If a
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template
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I've replaced the missing refs, I'm not sure how to split them between the note and ref lists.--
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If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with
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If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with
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Christian market, but before you fault them for that, remember that it is a Christian
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lyrics, in not direct, and they are on a label known for taking in Christian bands.
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unbiased as possible to avoid any misunderstanding regarding this touchy issue. --
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I'm planning on removing the split unless someone can explain how it's better. --
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The band's early albuns, Project 86 and Drawing Black Lines were nu metal, and
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even wrote specificly on this topic (the title pretty much says it all) here:
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than Project 86 and she is not considered a Christian artist. Consider
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An editor has reviewed this edit and fixed any errors that were found.
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http://www.ccmmagazine.com/news/stories/11534999/project%2086%2038th/
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I notice that there is already a reference to Arena Football on the
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http://www.andrewschwab.com/writings.php?id=30&writing_cat=1
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http://www.ccmmagazine.com/news/stories/11606083/project%2086/
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contest it I suggest you start a new discussion about it. --
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http://www.hmmagazine.com/reviews/album/p/project_860204.php
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41:. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be
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Knowledge article constitutes fair use. In addition to the
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for additional information. I made the following changes:
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for additional information. I made the following changes:
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page. Is it worthy enough to be repeated here as well? --
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of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
2115:2) Not one clearly indicates the things you claim.
2100:. Thoughts on this? Let me know before I add them.
2013:using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
1164:tags on this page without content in them (see the
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1183:Project 86 was formed in June 1996 by vocalist
1137:Project 86 was formed in June 1996 by vocalist
1999:This message was posted before February 2018.
702:Fair use rationale for Image:Project86300.jpg
655:Never mind, I deleted the proseline myself. -
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2112:1) Pretty much all primary sources.
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1772:"Consensus" on Christian rock band
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1907:. Please take a moment to review
1820:. Please take a moment to review
1177:when citing a book or a journal.
361:Template:WikiProject Christianity
2288:C-Class Christian music articles
2235:The discussion above is closed.
1846:
1268:McGovern, Brian Vincent (1998).
749:. Using one of the templates at
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2108:) 12 December 2017, 2:16 (UTC)
559:This article has been rated as
378:This article has been rated as
267:This article has been rated as
250:Template:WikiProject California
2313:C-Class Post-hardcore articles
2171:Nothing happening, delisting.
763:Media copyright questions page
619:I think it would be. Why not?
1:
2278:C-Class Christianity articles
2158:07:08, 14 December 2017 (UTC)
2138:07:08, 14 December 2017 (UTC)
2067:21:03, 8 September 2017 (UTC)
1788:07:33, 24 February 2017 (UTC)
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1728:21:40, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
1710:21:34, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
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1558:05:48, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
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1470:00:53, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
1451:00:09, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
1426:23:58, 14 February 2011 (UTC)
1248:12:45, 16 December 2009 (UTC)
1231:01:59, 15 December 2009 (UTC)
1214:21:01, 12 December 2009 (UTC)
826:07:47, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
732:boilerplate fair use template
533:and see a list of open tasks.
462:and see a list of open tasks.
400:This article is supported by
352:and see a list of open tasks.
241:and see a list of open tasks.
2303:C-Class Heavy Metal articles
2258:Old requests for peer review
1390:00:10, 19 January 2010 (UTC)
1373:05:55, 17 January 2010 (UTC)
1355:05:45, 17 January 2010 (UTC)
759:criteria for speedy deletion
612:03:32, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
602:00:55, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
2263:C-Class California articles
2231:02:51, 13 August 2022 (UTC)
2183:19:19, 26 August 2022 (UTC)
1404:'s lyrics could be seen as
1270:"Project 86: The Beginning"
1187:and drummer Alex Albert in
1141:and drummer Alex Albert in
697:03:57, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
634:...And The Rest Will Follow
468:Knowledge:WikiProject Metal
403:WikiProject Christian music
2339:
2308:WikiProject Metal articles
2080:and Abishai Collingsworth
2030:(last update: 5 June 2024)
1900:Hello fellow Wikipedians,
1813:Hello fellow Wikipedians,
743:the image description page
675:00:59, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
624:00:55, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
565:project's importance scale
471:Template:WikiProject Metal
384:project's importance scale
273:project's importance scale
45:. Editors may also seek a
1803:06:57, 2 March 2017 (UTC)
1746:Just saw that. Thanks! --
1071:05:35, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
1031:01:51, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
990:04:29, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
957:23:46, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
917:03:24, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
883:04:04, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
864:10:19, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
848:04:29, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
810:03:27, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
772:01:21, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
745:and edit it to include a
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2192:Please do not modify it.
1891:02:03, 26 May 2017 (UTC)
724:explanation or rationale
660:18:44, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
641:19:23, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
341:WikiProject Christianity
1896:External links modified
1809:External links modified
1491:that back the claim. --
2253:Delisted good articles
715:Image:Project86300.jpg
710:
646:Rival Factions Article
545:Post-hardcore articles
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154:This article is rated
2098:The Beautiful Mistake
1718:, which is an FA. --
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135:Delisted good article
39:good article criteria
2011:regular verification
1565:86 ChristianBook.com
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2201:This discussion is
2001:After February 2018
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33:Music good articles
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2006:InternetArchiveBot
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1569:MusiChristian.com
1316:Author name, p. #
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102:
83:
48:reassessment
46:
31:
30:
26:
2203:transcluded
2088:on Bassist
2072:New Members
1782:Wiki-Coffee
1716:The Beatles
1365:ReisPacheco
1347:ReisPacheco
1275:HM Magazine
1202:The Beatles
1017:—Preceding
939:—Preceding
899:—Preceding
792:—Preceding
588:—Preceding
85:Peer review
43:renominated
2247:Categories
2062:Report bug
1905:Project 86
1886:Report bug
1818:Project 86
1256:References
1193:California
1180:Option #2:
1160:There are
1147:California
1134:Option #1:
1126:References
609:MulletsBus
244:California
234:California
229:U.S. state
185:California
27:Project 86
2045:this tool
2038:this tool
1975:dead link
1951:dead link
1937:dead link
1923:dead link
1869:this tool
1862:this tool
1302:ignored (
1283:1066-6923
1240:Christine
1206:Christine
1166:help page
2221:Hog Farm
2173:Hog Farm
2146:MOS:CAPS
2051:Cheers.—
1875:Cheers.—
1658:3family6
1629:3family6
1382:Spencerz
1337:Nu metal
1019:unsigned
953:contribs
941:unsigned
913:contribs
901:unsigned
836:Comment:
816:Thanks,
806:contribs
794:unsigned
736:fair use
720:fair use
672:IronCrow
621:IronCrow
590:unsigned
124:Delisted
90:Reviewed
2094:Dogwood
2082:appears
1979:tag to
1955:tag to
1941:tag to
1927:tag to
1909:my edit
1822:my edit
1300:|month=
651:ahead!
563:on the
382:on the
271:on the
156:C-class
68:Process
1971:Added
1947:Added
1933:Added
1919:Added
1625:market
1278:(73).
1107:faith.
689:Coviti
162:scale.
109:Listed
71:Result
2205:from
2086:added
1734:Noj r
1720:Noj r
1687:Noj r
1595:Noj r
1550:Noj r
1520:Noj r
1489:WP:RS
1462:Noj r
1433:WP:RS
1418:Noj r
1395:Genre
1223:Noj r
1063:Noj r
982:Noj r
840:Noj r
465:Metal
431:Metal
301:Music
2226:Talk
2178:Talk
2154:talk
2134:talk
2096:and
1799:talk
1752:talk
1738:talk
1724:talk
1706:talk
1691:talk
1676:talk
1662:talk
1647:talk
1633:talk
1599:talk
1584:talk
1567:and
1554:talk
1539:talk
1524:talk
1497:talk
1466:talk
1447:talk
1438:four
1422:talk
1386:talk
1369:talk
1361:Here
1351:talk
1343:here
1304:help
1280:ISSN
1244:talk
1227:talk
1210:talk
1067:talk
1027:talk
986:talk
949:talk
909:talk
879:talk
860:talk
844:talk
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802:talk
728:this
693:talk
598:talk
65:Date
2217:P86
2019:RfC
1989:to
1965:to
1836:to
1484:the
555:Low
374:Low
263:Low
231:of
2249::
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2148:.
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2106:Yo
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