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the franchise doesn't include them. Even the table of films you have linked to explicitly segregates them. Aliens has crossed over with
Terminator, Superman, Batman, and the Avengers, are we including those as legitimate aspects of the franchise? If anything, the Alien franchise page needs updating to explicitly separate out the Alien vs Predator films as spin offs instead of trying to treat them as some form of loose canon, else we wouldn't have a separate Aliens vs Predator franchise page. That page is a mess overall, Alien: Romulus takes place between Alien and Aliens but it's a spin-off? This "It is the first film installment of the Alien vs. Predator franchise, the fifth film in the Alien franchise and third film of the Predator franchise," is genuinely embarrassing and a mess, and now we're trying to further segment the alien series into a prometheus series? You can't even say Prometheus is the first chronological film because we have to account for freaking Aliens vs Predator 1? Embarrassing. It's a separate franchise of spin off fanfiction based on a comic book. The alien series are films dealing exclusively with the xenomorphs/Weyland/Yutani, and if you ain't down with that, I got two words for ya:
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it surrounded by insectoid creatures the size of a human foot, and it is explained that they must have evolved from "space microbes" on the capsule. A little later the
Klingons arrive, and the creatures have evolved into large snake-like creatures, big enough to wrap themselves around the arm and torso of a Klingon, who kills it by poking out its throat with his thumb. Klingons are bigger than humans, so presumably the snake creatures would be big enough to kill a human.
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1956:) also see the AvP films as part of the "Alien" franchise or series of films. I also noticed a few sources that don't list them, but including them seems more common and the best I think we can say is that it's inconsistent. Therefore we should be clearer here as to what we're referring to, especially as we link to our own article that doesn't obviously support the number quoted.
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I think it would be better to add a small qualifier here, but I'm not certain what would be best. Fifth film in the mainline/main/core Alien franchise? Not particularly happy with these, but at least it's correct. The franchise article refers to the actual Alien films as
Anthology or Original, but I'm not a fan of using these either. Thoughts?
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clearly not (as well as failing the common sense test there isn't any sourcing). My original suggestion was something like "the 5th installment of the main (or) core Alien
Franchise". I agree with you that it's better for from an editorial perspective to place Prometheus in the context of the films dealing with the narrative of the xenomorph.
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The narrative scope of a film series also does not define whether or not films are part of a franchise. The Dark Knight trilogy and The Batman are both clearly part of the Batman media franchise, but would be usually described as separate series and do not share canon. Again, whether or not something
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People including the AvP films on the Aliens franchise page doesn't shift reality, those spin off films are of course linked to the ALien franchise because they ahve aliens in them, but is it canon that
Predators exist in this universe? No. They're fan fiction spin offs and any serious discussion of
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includes them as part of the franchise, with the franchise being sub-divided into the "Anthology" of which this is the fifth and the "cross-over films"), and the info box breaks this up further with the original series, and the
Prometheus films (of which this is the first). Obviously Knowledge (XXG)
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and while I agree that it's probably better to refer to this as the fifth film, it's unfortunate anyone who clicks the link to the franchise article will see that the AvP films are listed as part of the franchise, and so it's technically the 7th in order of release. For consistency / accuracies sake
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additional research is that there there is disagreement as to whether the Alien media franchise includes the AvP films, but that the Alien series does not. My original request for a qualifier isn't needed if we talk about the series as opposed to the franchise, most sources group all the main films
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I have removed the reference to it's numbered place in the franchise from the first paragraph of the lead entirely to avoid further disruption. If it's included in the lead, then it should really be addressed (and sourced) in the body unless it's very uncontroversial. Sources (including some of the
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However, there are enough sources that (however grudgingly) include the AvP films as part of the alien franchise (which is a marketing term ultimately) for there to be enough reason to make it clear to the reader what we're doing. Some google search statistics in addition to what I mentioned above;
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There's a bit in the third film where they go down to the
Genesis Planet, on which life evolves quickly and unstably as a result of some experiment or other done by Kirk's son. They find the pod which carried Spock's body after his death (the tomb is already empty and he has been reborn). They find
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Right, but you didn't state that at the time. This is not to dismiss your opinion, but even a fan wiki is not representitive of an audiences POV as it can't speak for them as a whole. Regardless this approach of saying who has or who has not listed the film as part of the series does not bring any
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It is but the ALien franchise page, and mainly IP editors, treat it based on chronological release, so even though AvP is a separate franchise, they treat those films as installments in both the Alien and
Predator franchises. I believe there may be hints in some of the lesser Predator sequels post
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I don't really care whether it's better to describe this film as the 5th of the non-crossover films (i.e. Alien
Franchise + a qualifier), or the 7th film featuring Xenomorphs (i.e. just Alien Franchise as per our article and multiple sources) or to not link to our franchise article at all, but the
1992:
I'm not saying that page isn't a mess, or wrong, but we link to it. We could remove the link, as I suggested above, rather than link to possibly incorrect or contradictory information. I also wasn't suggesting any of the other film franchises you mentioned are part of the Alien franchise, they're
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I've just watched Star Treks 2 (Khan) and 3 (The Search For Spock) on
Channel 4 Catchup, which was either filling a gap in my cultural knowledge or three hours of my life which I'm never going to get back. I'd seen bits of both of them in the early 90s, but had never watched either right through.
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On the topic of what film are or aren't in the series, I would try to find scholarship on how the series is seen as a whole. We can run around all day finding sources casually referring to a film belonging to a series, but if its truly a complex issue, maybe investigate what outside sources have
1838:
I wonder whether this was - either consciously or unconsciously - the inspiration for the worms which evolve in the black goo into snake creatures strong enough to break the arm of and then kill Milburn the biologist. The origin of the creatures is not explained at all in "Prometheus", no doubt
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more scholarly ones I checked in the book results) are divided on the definition / scope of the "franchise", so if we're not going to provide the full picture it's better not to do it all than mislead / confuse the reader. If the fifth is re-instated I would also support the footnote approach.
2032:. It needs input from Wikiproject film ultimately because adding something like "main" or "core" is us making up a caveat to explain something that, IMO, doesn't need explaining, but as we're both on different sides of the aisle and the use of "fifth" is longterm, it needs outsider input.
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The closing sentence in the plot describes content which was not picked up in any of the subsequent films in the franchise. It looks like a non sequitur. It should at least state, "In the lifeboat left behind on the planet, an alien creature bursts out of the Engineer's chest."
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I would slightly lean towards the film series variant, as I think that this will come up again if not. We can still link to the franchise article as although they name things a little differently there, at least readers will see it's the 5th in something. Thoughts?
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IMO the status quo version for this content is without the sentence, not with. This is what was FAC approved in 2013 and the reference to "installment number" was only introduced without discussion in June 2023 (and has been disputed ever since via
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don't count it, using the very, very gross statement " it is the seventh installment in the Alien franchise (ninth if one counts the Alien vs. Predator films)". I think at this point I'd be inclined to go with fifth or not include it at all.
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OK, requested. Maybe a TP watcher here will also chime in. Again, to be clear, I think 5th is the best number to choose, I just think additional clarity is better to avoid confusion (and also edits & reverts which is what caught my eye).
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This article is substantially duplicated by a piece in an external publication. Since the external publication copied Knowledge (XXG) rather than the reverse, please do not flag this article as a copyright violation of the following source:
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From a reader perspective, stating something in the lead which isn't really discussed in the body text, which isn't supported by a overwhelming majority of sources, and links to a WP article that directly contradicts the claim is not a good
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I do agree, that part wasn't in the version that passed featured article, it was in the second paragraph when discussing it's initial development as a fifth entry. The problem is the IPs constantly adding it if we take it out.
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I'm not sure that what you've stated above is the common view, so I still think we need to further qualify the term "Alien franchise". Our article for the Alien franchise, which is linked in the lead, includes the AvP films
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films. Others do not. I don't really think playing it to a numbers game is appropriate here, so I would try to look at bigger views of the series. Not to mention that while some of these sources seem like reliable sources
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While I don't think this is codified in the MoS, I think noting the installment number in the lead is pretty standard/good practice on film articles, as it provides helpful context for readers. Whether this constitutes
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There may not be much serious discussion of the AvP films, but that's because they're fucking terrible, not because the sources consistently don't include them in the overall franchise (here's another one,
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franchise. While this information would generally seemingly could be responded with a simple 'well it's obvious isn't it?" the research above clearly shows that some sources consider some films "proper"
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It's not about "canonicity", it's about sharing the same continuity. A franchise is different from a series; the latter must share the same continuity while the former can include reboots. For example,
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and other media on Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, you can edit one of the articles mentioned below, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and contribute to the
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stating whether or not its a fifth or sixth or however entry in a series, I would again stress the arguments here are probably better addressed by seeing how films are viewed as part of the larger
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2548:, etc.) some are not (the fandom page for example) many of them are kind of listicles that are just for google searches for finding narrative consistency or where the films can be streamed.
2629:", the term ""media franchise" "should not be taken as self-evident." The article goes into detail on how our own perceptions as an audience can suggest what is a "real/proper" part of the
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Oh, and just to add that we wouldn't be making up a caveat, I believe we'd be just be reflecting what the sources are saying. Whether or not anyone else agrees with me, I guess I'll see.
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Whether something is canon or not, is not a defining feature as to whether it is considered part of a media franchise (which is what the franchise articles represent, see
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th film in a series, but we probably should not but so much emphasis on these points unless its discussed within sources, and I can't say I've done a lot of research on
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2012:). Do you have any comments on the sourcing I'm providing, or anything that supports your assertion that RSs don't generally consider AvP part of the overall franchise?
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Again, all I'm asking is that we make it clear with a single word that we're not including the AvP films when we talk about it being the 5th film in the lead.
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Anecdotal research but in general they primarily don't count AvP or even explicitly state it is not part of the Alien series. Even the IPs on
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series, even if they make the films not connect narratively, at one point, they were presented as such and we shouldn't really ignore this.
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https://screenrant.com/are-alien-predator-movies-same-universe/#:~:text=One%20way%20of%20looking%20at,canon%20to%20the%20Alien%20franchise
2684:. It's worth noting that terminology film franchise / film series are not consistently defined within sources for most IP that I've seen.
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https://web.archive.org/web/20240829000725/https://www.vulture.com/article/all-the-alien-movies-that-never-got-made-before-romulus.html
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https://www.cinemablend.com/news/2474862/alien-movie-timeline-explained-all-alien-movies-in-order-chronologically-and-by-release-date
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and its affiliated companies on Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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franchise. So, now that you mention it, I agree that an acceptable compromise would be to say "It is the fifth installment in the
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If no consensus is reached here after extended discussion, the status quo (restoring the sentence) should be retained by default.
2097:, but I very rarely see films being discussed like this in other sources. With that, I'm going to say numbering these films fails
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on Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the ongoing discussions.
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I only included the fan site to show even fans, who don't have the same standards we do on Knowledge (XXG), don't include AvP.
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https://www.forbes.com/sites/simonthompson/2017/05/18/every-alien-box-office-take-ranked-worst-to-best-ahead-of-alien-covenant/
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Therefore, I'd be happy with either; "5th installment in the Alien film series" or no reference at all (i.e. FA version)
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is made available as part of a box set by rights holders is not necessarily indicative of anything at franchise level.
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https://www.independent.co.uk/extras/indybest/gadgets-tech/television/alien-films-in-chronological-order-b2603728.html
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2492:. It shouldn't be difficult to find sources that confirm the placement; here are a bunch of recent sources calling
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2165:", which I suppose works but is a bit wordy. All this being said, the "correct" answer is of course whatever the
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series, when that's not really up to us. If they were presented as part of the product, I'd say its part of the
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The thing is when we play counting games like this, it doesn't really clarify that "more is more right". As per
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conclusive response. Many people include the AvP films, many do not. Who is to say that majority rules here?
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on whether this is the fifth/sixth/etc. I know it's been popular on wikipedia to say a film or item is the
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I'm honestly fine without "instalment" mentions at all but I agree that the IPdiots will keep adding it.
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on Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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on Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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2000:"alien film franchise" Prometheus Covenant Predator" gives 8200 hits (310 if you restrict to books),
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https://web.archive.org/web/20240824140920/https://www.vulture.com/article/alien-movies-ranked.html
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2003:"alien film franchise" Prometheus Covenant -Predator" gives 3990 (126 if you restrict to books).
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https://eu.usatoday.com/story/entertainment/movies/2024/08/16/alien-movies-ranked/74769522007/
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franchise than the seventh. I might add an explanatory footnote reading "Not counting the two
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https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/lists/best-alien-movies/9-alien-vs-predator-requiem-2007/
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https://www.cnet.com/tech/services-and-software/watch-alien-movies-in-chronological-order/
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I did a basic search for "alien franchise" and these are the first results that came up:
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https://variety.com/2023/film/news/ridley-scott-watched-alien-romulus-great-1235759474/
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https://variety.com/2023/film/news/new-alien-movie-plot-synopsis-full-cast-1235542570/
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https://www.menshealth.com/entertainment/a37417939/alien-movies-chronological-order/
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https://www.escapistmagazine.com/no-one-has-any-idea-what-the-alien-franchise-is/
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AvP that treat those films as canon but the alien franchise explicitly does not.
2144:. I would personally be much more likely to refer to it as the fifth film in the
711:. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can
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https://www.amazon.co.uk/Alien-Film-Franchise-Encyclopedia-Fordham/dp/1803361204
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https://www.digitalspy.com/movies/a844657/alien-timeline-chronology-prometheus/
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https://www.gamesradar.com/entertainment/sci-fi-movies/alien-movies-in-order/
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as a film alone makes it clear its not part of the series, as discussed in "
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https://www.skyatnightmagazine.com/film-and-tv-reviews/alien-movies-in-order
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https://www.slashfilm.com/1591160/alien-movie-franchise-correct-order-watch/
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because it was assumed to be obvious (actually it isn't, on first viewing).
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https://uk.movies.yahoo.com/movies/alien-franchise-future-101631305.html
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https://www.cgmagonline.com/articles/features/ranking-alien-franchise/
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isn't a reliable source, but we are linking to it. A bunch of sources
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to "It is the fifth main film and seventh installment overall in the
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https://www.audible.co.uk/blog/the-alien-saga-in-chronological-order
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https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/please-stop-making-alien-movies/
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Even the official boxset doesn't consider them genuine installments
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https://www.nytimes.com/2024/08/17/movies/alien-movies-ranked.html
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would be a question for WT:FILM. If we were to deviate from this
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https://ew.com/how-to-watch-all-the-alien-movies-in-order-8694293
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I'd like make a couple of points based on the discussion above.
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The (Im)Perfect Organism: Dissecting the Alien Media Franchise
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https://www.loudersound.com/features/ranking-every-alien-film
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https://www.thewrap.com/alien-movies-in-order-how-to-watch/
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Featured articles that have appeared on the main page once
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films. And, of course, it is a widely known fact that the
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https://www.fangoria.com/where-to-watch-every-alien-movie/
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https://www.cbr.com/alien-vs-predator-non-canon-explained/
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https://time.com/7010555/alien-romulus-franchise-timeline/
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Just to weight in on this we might be putting unnecessary
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https://alienanthology.fandom.com/Alien_Universe_Timeline
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FA-Class 20th Century Studios articles of Mid-importance
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films are explicitly not part of the same continuity as
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I didn't say it's a majority rule. I'm not sure how the
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This article appeared on Knowledge (XXG)'s Main Page as
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https://www.space.com/alien-movies-ranked-worst-to-best
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films were listed as part of the franchise. There are
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https://screenrant.com/alien-movie-timeline-explained/
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It already has a qualifier, "fifth installment in the
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Featured articles that have appeared on the main page
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https://www.denofgeek.com/movies/alien-movies-ranked/
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as-is wording seems inaccurate or at best ambiguous.
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We'd need a source - a published review - obviously.
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2480:available for purchase, none of which include the
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2825:(all of which acknowledge/reference each other).
2324:https://www.odeon.co.uk/odeon-scene/alien-movies/
613:Knowledge (XXG):WikiProject 20th Century Studios
514:, a project which is currently considered to be
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727:. To improve this article, please refer to the
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2758:series, but also the 25th installment in the
2754:is the fifth installment in the Daniel Craig
2313:https://www.cbr.com/alien-franchise-in-order/
1053:WikiProject Film - American cinema task force
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275:. Even so, if you can update or improve it,
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1885:. I saw your recent reversion
1877:Fifth or seventh in franchise?
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2233:11:06, 1 September 2024 (UTC)
2217:05:03, 1 September 2024 (UTC)
1872:06:25, 24 February 2024 (UTC)
1236:and see a list of open tasks.
1131:and see a list of open tasks.
1050:This article is supported by
619:20th Century Studios articles
607:and see a list of open tasks.
42:Put new text under old text.
2908:Old requests for peer review
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2823:Alien: Earth
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1909:franchise",
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1319:Section name
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1217:2010s portal
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977:Project Talk
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467:WikiProjects
431:
418:
415:June 9, 2020
403:
384:
379:May 31, 2013
372:Not promoted
365:
346:
327:
277:please do so
266:
258:
218:
184:
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150:
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138:
132:
122:
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19:This is the
2856:WP:FANCRUFT
2787:film series
2776:film series
2207:franchise.
1620:Pre-release
1401:Development
1045:Film portal
700:Film portal
405:Peer review
148:free images
31:not a forum
2887:Categories
2811:Prometheus
2789:", as the
2761:James Bond
2756:James Bond
2171:TompaDompa
1844:Paulturtle
1720:References
1650:Home media
1635:Box office
1387:Production
840:literature
729:guidelines
717:open tasks
268:identified
2763:franchise
2704:editing).
2700:solution.
2696:together.
2163:franchise
2103:WP:SIGCOV
2099:WP:WEIGHT
1864:HenryRoan
1734:Citations
1693:Accolades
1664:Reception
1578:Marketing
88:if needed
71:Be polite
21:talk page
2774:Avengers
2715:Scribolt
2682:WP:MFILM
2538:Fangoria
2187:Scribolt
2063:Scribolt
2049:Scribolt
2017:Scribolt
1962:Scribolt
1892:Scribolt
1781:217,264
1749:Journals
1742:122,387
1727:123,445
671:American
517:inactive
491:inactive
457:FA-class
410:Reviewed
391:Promoted
186:Archives
56:get help
29:This is
27:article.
2803:Alien 3
2739:trilogy
2494:Romulus
2465:Before
2142:WT:FILM
1778:217,264
1739:122,387
1707:Sequels
1671:11,155
1606:Release
1497:13,680
1446:Filming
1416:Writing
1394:22,065
1327:Section
1266:on the
1161:on the
1016:on the
878:on the
667:British
637:on the
312:Process
219:90 days
154:WP refs
142:scholar
2821:, and
2799:Aliens
2744:Batman
2087:weight
1816:, EPEL
1770:3,143
1757:1,043
1714:2,110
1701:4,705
1686:6,435
1658:2,041
1643:3,823
1628:1,764
1613:8,226
1600:4,473
1585:8,811
1572:2,524
1542:4,905
1527:3,328
1512:1,804
1490:Design
1484:1,222
1469:2,587
1454:3,364
1439:1,697
1424:8,266
1409:4,913
1381:5,587
1374:Themes
1368:9,841
1355:4,790
1342:4,411
1329:total
982:Alerts
908:Cinema
851:Horror
808:Horror
463:scale.
353:Listed
315:Result
126:Google
2795:Alien
2785:Alien
2635:Alien
2631:Alien
2533:Alien
2528:Alien
2490:Alien
2476:Alien
2471:Alien
2205:Alien
2161:Alien
2146:Alien
2095:Alien
1907:Alien
1775:Total
1767:3,143
1754:1,043
1711:2,110
1698:4,705
1683:6,435
1655:2,041
1640:3,823
1625:1,764
1597:4,473
1582:4,338
1569:2,524
1539:4,905
1524:3,328
1509:1,804
1481:1,222
1476:Music
1466:2,587
1451:3,364
1436:1,697
1421:8,266
1406:4,913
1378:5,587
1365:9,841
1352:4,790
1339:4,411
1335:(Top)
1324:count
1239:2010s
1230:2010s
1186:2010s
523:Alien
486:Alien
261:is a
191:Index
169:JSTOR
130:books
84:Seek
2868:talk
2845:talk
2831:talk
2719:talk
2668:talk
2643:talk
2613:talk
2591:The
2583:talk
2568:talk
2554:talk
2546:Time
2510:talk
2456:talk
2229:talk
2213:talk
2191:talk
2175:talk
2130:talk
2115:talk
2101:and
2067:talk
2053:talk
2038:talk
2021:talk
1984:talk
1966:talk
1921:talk
1896:talk
1887:here
1868:talk
1848:talk
1557:592
1361:Cast
1348:Plot
1322:Byte
870:High
836:film
734:Film
719:and
662:Film
334:Kept
309:Date
162:FENS
136:news
73:and
2791:AvP
2623:AvP
2605:AvP
2597:AvP
2486:AvP
2482:AvP
1944:),
1881:Hi
1610:598
1554:592
1494:527
1258:Low
1153:Mid
1008:Low
629:Mid
176:TWL
2889::
2870:)
2847:)
2833:)
2817:,
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2809:,
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1968:)
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1724:15
1668:15
1391:16
1060:).
906::
838:,
669:/
665::
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188::
172:·
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158:·
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145:·
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128:(
58:.
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