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the cosmos, and how everything suddenly becomes saturated with significance and meaning. Such experiences occur independently of prior beliefs held by the patient. Ramachandran has explained that the phenomenon is not evidence for âGod moduleâ as the media initially popularised. Rather that there are perhaps a variety of structures which work together to give rise to such spiritual experiences, which is the case with other specific systems of the brain. The visual system for example has many quite distinct components (colour, movement, object recognition, facial recognition) working together to produce vision, rather than a âvision moduleâ located in a single area. TLE patients also show a reduced response to normally provocative images (such as sexual images), but a heightened response to religiously-loaded words or imagery.The serotonin (5-HT) system has long been of interest in biological models of human personality. Psychopharmacological research has investigated the effect of psychedelic drugs in relation to religious experience. The drugs which have been studied include adrenaline derivatives (e.g. mescaline) and serotonin derivatives (e.g. LSD, psilocybin, DMT). It has been found that these drugs cause transcendental or spiritual experiences as well as intense visual hallucinations. The remarkable finding is that all of these drugs act on one specific type of neuroreceptor called serotonin 2A (or 5-HT2A) receptors, which are found all over the cortical surface of the brain. 5-HT2A receptors are stimulatory, which means when these drugs acts on them they increase production of serotonin in the brain, and this gross overstimulation of the 5-HT2A receptors leads to what are interpreted as religious experiences.
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cooperative effort of collectively calming ourselves when these hotpoints have flared up. I can sometimes be blunt and sometimes I see, in hindsight, that my initial point wasn't all that clearly in my favour which I started out believing. It is easier said than done to prevent these sometimes transgressions, because it has to do with my temporally dynamic impulses to invest myself in this article. If I am indeed to participate in the process of producing this article, I have to make the most of periods (occasions rather) where I find myself getting worked up ("energized" would be an appropriate term here) enough to delve into the process of absorbing text, both from the article itself, the external sources, and of course the discourse taking place on this page, then processing this both linearly (logically?) and by associations and analogies, hopefully contributing with some lateral thinking as well to the benefit of everybody, and finally, before the (hopefully cool) air exits the balloon, put some significant thoughts down in writing in a way that facilitates the continuing collective effort. __
1999:" simply should give this away. It occurs to me that you do not seem to distinguish well between these terms being used in contexts where they merely loosely, not significantly, reference the phenomenon about which this article revolves, and common, more loose applications of the terms. I think you need to make allowance for the occurences of these terms not always being applicable as references for this article by critically considering the full context in which they are used. If this context is not very explicit in making it clear that the term is applied with an emphasis on its referencing the elaborate energetics which we hope this article shall become able to expound, then I think it does no good to the cause of making this article less opaque to include such a text as reference. As it now stand the repleteness of external references seems to be based on a principle of quantity with insufficient regard for quality, i.e. short and spiffy statements, characterized by clarity and succinctness. __
1816:" too unspecific. These terms are very vaguely delineated (generally, not just in this article), especially when it comes to the forces aspect. I therefore think it becomes confusing to have them introduced this explicitly, giving the reader the impression that there exists a clear relationship between them in the context of Psychodynamics which is significant for understanding what Psychodynamics is, an impression which will unavoidably create bewilderment in the reader: either because the reader will think he or she lacks some prerequisite understanding about these terms which should be regarded as common knowledge (since there is no further description in the article about their relationship in the context of forces), or after reading on not finding an elaboration on these relationships which have been given such a prominent mention.
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Freud'. The two are mutually exclusive, especially as the
Psychoanalytic world divided into three groups long ago, and many researchers who started with a Freudian-based training analysis, such as R D Laing and John Bowlby, rebelled openly early on and went their own way. Criticism? There can be no criticism of Psychodynamics under the broad (and surely preferable) definition, because it is a category, a field of study that is ongoing and constantly revised. Of Freud and his theories of course there is much criticism. Compare with Physics, which defines a field of endeavour, and thus cannot be subject to criticism (except by those opposed to knowledge). Newtonian physics of course can be criticised, but we do not define Physics as 'all theories that originated with Newton'. There is a similar dilemma with
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Self-transcendence is a personality trait covering religious behaviour and attitudes originally described by
Washington University psychiatrist Robert Cloninger. He found that spiritual people tend to share a set of characteristics, such as feeling connected to the world and a willingness to accept things that cannot be objectively demonstrated. This result implies that there is a dysfunction in the 5-HT1A receptors in spiritual people resulting in less inhibition of the effects of serotonin, which in turn would lead to increased susceptibility to spiritual experiences. This was further evidence that the serotonin system may serve as a biological basis for spiritual experiences.
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that the capacity for religious experience seems to be as varied among the population as any other personality trait, individual characteristic or innate ability. Some people are simply born with a brain that has a greater chance of finding God, as they are âwired upâ that way. We are restricted in our choice, much the same as we are restricted in our choice to prefer chocolate or vanilla, Bach or Mozart, men or women. Neuroscientific studies have consistently shown that all the choices we make in life are far more greatly influenced by genetic makeup, rather than our environmental influences. In this regard, we are certainly not equal in finding pathways to God.
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the role of
Knowledge (XXG) to define words, but I think it is going to have to be (along with explanation like this) if it is to get out of some of the traps that it is currently stuck in. Does anyone here think R D Laing, John Bowlby etc worked in Psychodynamics? If so, lets extend the list of theories, and emphasise Psychodynamics as a broad category of psychology. If it is not that, then we have no name for a field that very much needs a name, and has nothing necessarily to do with Freud or Thermodynamics. I consider the opening sentence to be spot-on. --
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in the brain. The most interesting of these processes is the feeling of cosmic unity. The parietal lobe contains an area called the âorientation association areaâ (OAA), which processes information about space and time, as well as the orientation of the body in space. It determines where the body ends and the rest of the world begins. The left OAA creates the sensation of a physically delimited body. The right OAA creates the sense of the physical space in which the body exists. An injury here destroys your ability to navigate around in physical space.
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I would still hope for an intellectual purification of such feelings, perhaps first by discarding words such as spiritual, transcendent or religious in their description, as these have all been tarnished by the brush of supernaturalism. Instead, I would propose we begin to use phrases such as ânuminous abilityâ. We can learn to appreciate this creative numinous ability as something intrinsically rather than mystically stunning, much the same as we appreciate music or art without linking their intrinsic beauty with supernaturalism.
1500:, specifically âthe points of view not adopted are the dynamic (psychological forces) and the economic (psychological energy); there are therefore no propositions concerning psychological energy or psychological forces; concepts such as conservation of energy, entropy, direction and magnitude of force are all missing.â In later chapters, he says, âattempt is made to fill the resulting gap.â He also cites six full sources which describe the origins of Freudâs model, as based on chemistry and physics, in detail, stemming from
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agonists) factors. However, it is quite specific in these studies that what is described is an overwhelming feeling of meaning or significance. I would speculate that such religious experiences feed into our mindâs innate teleological sense, eventually culminating in a deep religious belief which is used to elucidate the experienced emotions. The focus therefore is in meaning â an idea which ties in elegantly with native teleology, explaining the obsession with meaning and purpose explanations among intellectual theists.
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being a bully as someone who displays callous or inadvertent disregard for the feelings and position of others, and I would be extremely uncomfortable if I found myself in that role. I can live with others seeing me in that role as long as I see them as being wrong, not counting all sorts of resistance which that provokes, but I want to be able to look deep into myself without having to fend off by means of psychological defenses any intolerable attitudes I may project. And being a bully unequivocally is one such. __
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authoritative on the subject "owning about a dozen books on
Psychodynamics". Definitions within the article itself are wildly disparate, one emphasizing the parentage of thermodynamics and asserting Freud as the founder of this branch of psychology. Later in the article Psychodynamics is defined as an "evolving multi-disciplinary field" applying buzzwords from neuropsychology and mind-body intervention with no mention of any relation to thermodynamics at all. This second "version" appears to be lifted verbatim from
2048:(the most generally-used term presently), is that it often goes by various names by different noted authors, but is invariably the same stuff, i.e. any application of physics, particularly thermodynamics, to psychology that can trace its roots to Freud. Bowlby (1969) calls it âFreudâs psychical energy modelâ, Jung (1928) calls it âpsychic energism and dynamismâ, Freud (1923) calls it the âdynamic viewâ, and there are many others early than Freud who were digging into this area, e.g. in 1896
1190:. The first definition is basically found on pages 4-6 of this same book where he speaks of "psychical dynamics", "mental dynamics", the "division of the psychical into the conscious and unconscious", the various "forces" and "work" associated mental "states", and the displacements of "mental energy" as they effect their way towards action, etc. Read the book to get the best picture. Also, from page 13 of Hall's Primer in Freudian Psychology, "A
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transcendence of the notion that one even has any actual, non-illusory "ego" with which to experience "death" in the first place. The God of Mind : Exploring the
Implications of Neurotheological Research Written by Jonathan PararajasinghamOctober 26, 2011 11:54 pm3 comments Editorâs Note: This is the fourth part of âMindâs Matterâ, a series by Dr. Jonathan Pararajasingham exploring the Neurobiological basis of behaviour.
74:
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981:(1874) as (1) the psychology of mental or emotional forces or processes developing especially in early childhood and their effects on behavior and mental states; (2) explanation or interpretation, as of behavior or mental states, in terms of mental or emotional forces or processes; (3) motivational forces acting especially at the unconscious level. I think I will prefer to side with Merriam-Webster over you. --
1332:, which means 'energy' or 'forces,' have their origins in the developing personality. An explanation of exactly how childhood development influences subsequent preferences, needs, desires, and interests would take volumes. Suffice it to say that psychodynamics is at the bottom layer of feelings, attitudes, and needs that are often not available to the individual for conscious investigation or analysis."
2566:." This really doesn't make much sense to me. My take would be that having read this much an average reader would experience information overload and anything exceeding this would send him or her reeling. The last part of your proposed text, about the interaction of the conscious and unconscious levels, is a key element that should be presented in a full sentence without clauses, and not too long.
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1762:(1874) - (1) the psychology of mental or emotional forces or processes developing especially in early childhood and their effects on behavior and mental states; (2) explanation or interpretation, as of behavior or mental states, in terms of mental or emotional forces or processes; (3) motivational forces acting especially at the unconscious level. Source:
1581:(above) âPsychodynamics, as a concept, and psychodynamics as applied to psychotherapy, are two completely different entities. ⌠A further read of this, and other, pages puts you in the light of someone who is agenda driven, and, more often than not, off-base in your positionality.â Lastly, to repeat what is already stated above, according to
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2060:; hence, the name choice as to what Freud was talking about with all his unconscious âdriving forcesâ, ârepressionâ, and âinstinctâ in relation to physics was not that clear. Hence, please donât shoot down my efforts on trying to clarify what weâre talking about here as it has been used in history and in modern times. --
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also turns out to be the conclusion of the survey which I propose, then we must present this paramount paradox to the reader and caution about the use of the term without an additional explanation of what one means when using it, possibly recommending not using it at all for the sake of clarity alone. __
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as effects of motion and position." These types of transitory views in terminology, might help us shed some light on why Freud, who began thinking about this issue in 1874, doesnât specifically come right out and say (or reference) in is publications (although I still need to read more of his work),
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Psychodynamics is the study of human behavior from the point of view of motivation and drives, depending largely on the functional significance of emotion, and based on the assumption that an individual's total personality and reactions at any given time are the product of the interaction between his
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Meco, I've idea to which "other thread where you were being critical" you are referring. What I was referring to is that you, as I, am an intellectual bully. I woudl align myself with you in stating that we tend tot hink before we think and, in that moment, think that we are right and everyone else
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in making up our own definitions. Certainly, one or more clarifying definitions after the main one is will be good. Also the term "dynamic psychology" is used in publication and found as a synonym for psychodynamics. To note, I think that if we can get a copy of the 1874 publication of
Lectures on
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Hall and Nordby go on to state facts such as âstudents of physics will recognize that this principle of equivalence is the first law of thermodynamics or the conservation of energyâ (pg. 65) and that âin physics the second law of thermodynamics is called the principle of entropy.â (pg. 68). In short,
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I should perhaps say that the problem I am trying to explain is not, as others have suggested that there are several definitions out there that need a survey. It is the fundamental problem that a category cannot contain itself. Thus if
Psychodynamics is general and not necessarily Freudian, then it
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I have long thought that the term
Psychodynamics suffers from the problem of being used in two ways. The first, as used in the opening sentence of this article, is non-specific and a category of study that includes all past and future approaches. The second refers to 'all theories originating with
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that I wonder if perhaps we hadn't better make a survey of them and attempt to collate them to sort out differences, similarities and what they focus on primarily. Some of them, I find, don't seem to be very focused at all, which may reflect an impossibility of establishing a congruous term. If this
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Then we're on level. And I agree with your perspective. However, I can't envisage myself being a bully the way I perceive that term. I can be agressive, preferably sharply, but unfortunately sometimes also bluntly, a trait which I would rather hone and refine than attempt to rid myself of. But I see
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Besides being particularly diffuse, this sentence alone could give the impression that
Psychodynamics is a coordinated discipline of scientific study. Although the article gives examples of psychodynamic research and development taking place (e.g. Jung's work), it does not support a notion that this
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But like art, such religious abilities may be rationalised now as being secondary to natural rather than divine processes, though I concede that those with strong religious abilities would be unlikely change their view that their stunning experiences have no supernatural component. Having said that,
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The neuroscientist VS Ramachandran has extensively investigated a curious condition known as temporal lobe epilepsy (TLE). Studies have shown that after TLE patients undergo an epileptic seizure, they uniquely describe having a profound âspiritualâ experience. They claim to understand their place in
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A relatively new area in neuroscience gaining momentum rapidly is neurotheology â a field which investigates the notion that within the brain are neural structures which give rise to the potential for religious experience. More studies are beginning to show not only that neural correlates exist, but
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which Wiki editors insist on defining as synonymous with 'The Modern
Synthesis' or 'Darwinian theory of Evolution'. They thus seek to destroy the very possibility of 'evolution' as a subject of ongoing study; which it very much is. This is straight out of Orwell and 1984. I know it's not currently
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The most significant question that arises from these discoveries is the implications on the theistic account of free will in choosing faith. In other words, the typical monotheistic description of a God who gives us the ability (free will) to choose to worship him becomes problematic, since we find
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In âWhy God Wonât Go Awayâ, radiologist Andrew Newberg describes his studies on the religious experiences of Tibetan Buddhists in meditation and Franciscan nuns in prayer. Using PET scanning, Newberg revealed a number of mental traits which all seem to play a part in an overall religious experience
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The practice of ego death as a deliberately sought "mystical experience" in some ways is said to overlap with, but is nevertheless distinct from, traditional teachings concerning enlightenment/"Nirvana" (in Buddhism) or "Moksha" (in Hinduism and Jainism), which might perhaps be better understood as
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In addition to what I have stated above, i.e. how "psychodynamics" (the most generally-used term presently), goes by various names by different noted authors, but is invariably the same concept, i.e. any application of physics, particularly thermodynamics, to psychology that can trace its roots to
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I have just added a response in another thread that is rather critical of your efforts, not generally, but in one particular respect. As I have before. I have previously had some pretty harsh words come in my direction as well, warranted or not so warranted. I think we so far have made a very good
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The potential of religiosity to be enhanced through drugs, disease or even practice, reminds one of similar effects on other abilities such as music or art. Certain brain conditions such as autism or schizophrenia lead patients to express heightened artistic or musical abilities. Perhaps we should
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Sensory input is essential for the OAA to function, which is blocked during intense meditation or prayer. The left OAA cannot find any boundary between self and non-self, resulting in a sense of oneness. Without sensory input, the right OAA defaults to a feeling of infinite space, where meditators
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The article should reflect all pertinent material, and it is the article alone which stands to merit its inclusion in Knowledge (XXG). Referring readers to "read up" on external literature is simply irrelevant. It doesn't matter if a term can be documented and corroborated in all sorts of external
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to educate yourself. The contents include: (1) What is Psychodynamics? - alloplastic, psychodynamics, (2) The Ego and the Id integrative - syntonic, integrative, drives, (3) Mental Energy - cathexes, cathexis, libido, along with 19 other sections. Please, this article is sourced with 9 published
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Sourced or not, it's giving a mistaken impression. Within psychology, psychodynamics is used to refer to particularly theoryset not at all related to thermodynamics, even if historically true, as in where frued got the idea, that information should be relegated to the historical perspective of the
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in citing Bowlby's book. The fact that Freud applied analogies from thermodynamics and the fact that terms such as "psychological forces" and "psychological energy" can be apprehended by most do not render into your thesis that the term psychodynamics can be applied as a key concept of psychology
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Our approach to psychodynamics has been to focus on combining a number of emerging communications, design and psychological sciences -- including the research of eminent Russian neurophysiologist Dr. P.V. Simonov, neurochemist Dr. Pavel Balaban, the late social psychologist Dr. Arnold Mitchell,
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Your statement that you will not respect my perhaps blunt censure of your removal of the merger tag, rather ignoring the fact that there is an agreement to allow for some time in discussing and maturing this issue, also leaves me a bit befuddled. Should this be taken as a position that you do not
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First of all it should be clearly stated that it is nothing more than a PSEUDOscience. This belief is neither falsifiable nor testable thus it doesnt fulfil criteria of a scientific theory. Psychodynamics must not be described as to be equal to both biological psychiatry and cognitive-behavioral
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Thatâs an interesting article, it would probably take a while to separate whatâs psychodynamic from other theories in that article, youâll have to give me some time to digest it. Where did you get that âbiodynamic psychotherapyâ term? Also, all the references seem to be in German, I think?; is
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article the connection between the physicists Helmholtz and von Brucke is discussed only in respect to Freud's early career, i.e. medical school. I can not see that the connection between these disciplines (thermodynamics and psychodynamic psychology) has been developed in any other way than its
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I'm sorry, I had to fix that sentence without public comment. the reference that was sited did not support the statements being made, and there was confusion evidenced in calling phenomena (regression) a theory. while people have theories about regression, it is not a "theory." it is a clinical
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Usually exchanges that become this personal are relegated to users' own discussion pages, however, in the current context, with the present company, I find them justified and constructive. Could you therefore clarify, perhaps by simply rephrasing, your point here? I don't think I understand the
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As for the above reference and others, yes I agree this is a confusing topic. In short, I feel that if we collect enough references, from all points of view, then we can get a well-rounded article, being that there is not standard college courses on psychodynamics, as a stand-alone. The basic
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The obvious interpretation of such findings is that there is neural architecture in the brain which includes the temporal lobes that are specialized for what we understand as spirituality, which may be selectively and transiently enhanced by pathological (epileptic storm) and artificial (5-HT2A
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A Google search on the term "Psychodynamics" yields more confusion and to my preliminary investigation nothing that corroborates the inclinations purveyed in the current article. I get responses like "the psychodynamics of drug abuse and psychological. dependence", "Psychodynamics of Political
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Just because one editor thinks the proposed merger isn't warranted doesn't justify the same editor closing the discussion by removing the merger template from the respective article pages. I have consequently reinstated the merger tags. The same goes for discussion to delete category. It is my
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Please Dasha, start with the newer version with 3,000+ kb of new material with new references used for the intro, and add in your changes slowly over the next week, otherwise I can't tell what sentences you have issues with, when you delete entire sections. Let's start over and work together
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Although I, too, can be more than brusque, and find Meco's take pretty pointed, I would have to get on board with the overall idea that "referring to does not a reference make." I suspect we are all operating at different standards of succinct-ness, and it would appear that this is strongly
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and the content of this article, so I shall desist from badgering you more about that. Now, I am still going to put my effort into the improvement of this article. I have made succinct points above and I have more points coming. I will make an effort to present them in a coordinated fashion.
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A second line of evidence regarding the serotonin system was published in the American Journal of Psychiatry in 2003 on the effect of 5-HT1A receptors, which are inhibitory. They showed that the binding potential of 5-HT1A receptors correlated inversely with scores for âself-transcendenceâ.
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The study of human behavior from the point of view of motivation and drives, depending largely on the functional significance of emotion, and based on the assumption that an individual's total personality and reactions at any given time are the product of the interaction between his genetic
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I'm not going through the material at a great pace currently, so I haven't covered all there is to read. However, I do not see the necessity of using someone else's readymade definition as long as we can support our own with the article itself, and all in it which needs to be referenced is
1827:" likewise gives an impression that these are clearly distinct terms, and as with the other three terms, the reader will frustrate him- or herself in trying to find in the article a detailing exposition of their distinction and relationship in the context of exchange of forces or energy.
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The more I follow up on my initial reaction to the attempt at establishing a hierarchy around the term 'Psychodynamics' the more I begin to question the basic validity of this article. I am particularly bewildered by claims by the article's principal editor who asserts to be more or less
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In 25 years of practice, research, and teaching, I have never heard the expression dynamic psychology, not least in terms of it being as equivalent to psychodynamics. For this statement to be crediable, I would want to see a reference...and not one that is 200 years old, tank you.
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is a quantity just as mass is a quantity. It can be transformed but it cannot be destroyed. When energy disappears from one part of a system it has to appear elsewhere in the system. The fifty years between Helmholtzâs statement of the conservation of energy and Albert Einsteinâs
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Cite: <<(a) the interaction of the emotional and motivational forces that affect behavior and mental states, especially on a subconscious level; (b) inner forces affecting behavior: the study of the emotional and motivational forces that affect behavior and states of mind.:
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Yes, in any event, I hope were all on the same page. I stopped by the library and printed out four articles on psychodynamics, 1940s to 1950s, from JSTOR a few minutes ago. After I read them, I will probably add some material to the article in the next week or so. Talk later:
2378:" to be just as opaque in its use of various psychological, in the context insufficiently defined, terms and also in its complete omission in identifying the energetic focus. In fact, since I began working with this article I have seen so many disparate definitions of the term
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As I no longer understand this article to be attempting to describe a system of psychotherapy I no longer hold the above position. Why I held this conception for this long I don't clearly see. It could be that the diffuse language of the introduction, as I see it, confused me.
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which propel men and women into paringâ. If you donât like his definition, then that is your point of view. Also, instead of attacking the references I find, why donât you try find some references and definitions of psychodynamics and add them to the article. Thank-you.
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Yes, weâll I may have jumped the gun on some comments, but we got off on the wrong foot with his accusation that I added a âspurious establishment of thermodynamics parentageâ to the article. Hopefully, we have worked together enough now to have cleared that issue up?
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Yes, thank-you. I will try to chip in, in this direction; whenever I come across good sources. Trying to uncover reliable sources on theories that began over 100 years, however, is always a slow and tedious process. It took me over a year to figure out what
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Meco, youâre dragging this issue out beyond reasonable measure. What DashaKat is trying to say, I think, is that psychodynamics is the central theory, and it has many branches, e.g. Freudian psychodynamics, Jungian psychodynamics, psychodynamic psychotherapy,
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phenomena that is witnessed in the process of psychotherapy. It can be induced, may occur spontaneously, or may be avoided, depending on many factors, all of which are beyond to scope of the current article. So I fixed it, i hope without too much contention.
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Neuroscientists have discovered curious truths about religious experience and their potential enhancement through drugs, disease or even practice. In this article I explore the implications of the apparent malleability and non-universality of religiosity.
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I am quite pleased with the reference pulled from Robertson and Combs. If we can weed out all unsourced (and conflicting) statements and insert quotes of this calibre in their place, I have no doubts this article has the potential to become exemplary.
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Freud. Bowlby (1969) calls it âFreudâs psychical energy modelâ, Jung (1928) calls it âpsychic energism and dynamismâ, Freud (1923) calls it the âdynamic viewâ, or âmental dynamicsâ, etc., is that prior to the 1970s, approximately, the science of
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Meco...I will respect your reinstatement of the Merge tag, although I stand by my premise that the two topics, while related, are exclusive. I will not, however, respect your rather rude public directive to respect the process of discussion and
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If anyone else has issues with this article, they can read Bowlbyâs 1969 book Attachment, Vol. I, pages 13-26, where he spends 13 pages justifying why he is the first psychologist not to use Freudâs psycho-dynamic theories in his new science of
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or something similar. Then there are three injected clauses explaining three terms of thermodynamics. I think the three terms should be mentioned separately first, then the relations of these to psychology could follow. The first clause is:
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Thanks for the encouragement. I have now added a total of 14 references to this article. I suppose that, according to your logic, the more references I add the worse it gets? Anyway, thanks for the fun time and for all the moral support!
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can refer to two different conditions where a latent idea is absent from consciousness, one being when it can easily be brought back into consciousness and the other where it is repressed by som force and cannot easily be made conscious.
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The new first sentence in my opinion is very bad, and I know it comes out of McGraw-Hill Science Tech Dictionary. In fact so much so that it may rather constitute a copyright violation. Now that is not my contention. I find the wording
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seen in relation to Psychodynamics? I have not seen Reich applying references to thermodynamics (I think), nevertheless, there's definitely the quantitative play of forces which this theory is based on. And he was a student of freud's.
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Yes, let me think about your comments for a while. I'll add in your suggestion (bolded) for the time being, because I had thought of that short definition as well, but found it to recursive; but if you like it, we'll give it a shot.
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In psychology, psychodynamics or dynamic psychology is the study of the interrelationship of various parts of the mind, personality, or psyche as they relate to mental, emotional, or motivational forces especially at the unconscious
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or something similar? If the article is to be about a main system of psychotherapy called Psychodynamics, it should be completely re-written. Especially the introductory section now is a mishmash of inconsistencies and buzzwords.
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I can find nothing on those two pages which supports these statements. In fact the book here deals with defining the term "unconscious" in psychological terms in contradistinction to philosophical ones pointing out that
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incidental, and I find the insertions of references to thermodynamics in several places in the current article to be arbitrary conjecture on the part of one editor and not adequately supported by references. Just as
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Hopefully. No ill will intended toward either of you, being something of a pompous know-it-all myself, I find Meco's style to tend toward the bullying, and would be disappointed to see anyone fall prey to that.
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with clear implications of being a subordinate discipline of thermodynamics. Your repeated recommendations to read copious external literature is not the way to present a persuasive argument for your case either.
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I agree. As I understand it there's quite a bit of evidence that Freud was a charlatan and fraudster, e.g. inventing clinical results, which would itself raise questions over his work. Also, is there any actual
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could be applied to manâs personality as well as to his body.â I hope this clarifies your uncertainties. There are dozens of books written about this topic, try reading some of them. I personally own over 130
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This is my impression also, and the only current source associating contemporary Psychodynamic psychotherapy with thermodynamics in the way this article purveys appears to be Knowledge (XXG) user Sadi Carnot.
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references. I see no need to belittle efforts to write up an article on a basic term. Please take your trolling somewhere else. Also, if you donât have access to a library, please feel free to consult
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A further read of this, and other, pages puts you in the light of someone who is agenda driven, and, more often than not, off-base in your positionality. Kindly check your ego at the door, thank you. --
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in this instance to me is a prima facie example of this. From the way this paragraph presents itself I do not find it appropriate as a source for definition of the term. The fact that the author writes
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Ego death is an experience that supposedly reveals the illusory aspect of the ego, sometimes undergone by mystics, shamans, monks, psychonauts and others interested in exploring the depths of the mind.
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is the application of the theory used in clinical practice by many psychologists in many forms. I have a good-sized bookshelf on these topics and will be glad to back up any disagreements with refs. --
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which in fact redirects to the current article. I assert nevertheless that this does not constitute an adequate rationale for establishing Psychodynamics as a sub-category to Category:Thermodynamics.
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could be studied scientifically and that it could be measured quantitatively. These two men, Darwin and Fechner, had âa tremendous impact on the intellectual development of Freud.â Hall continues:
1983:
I'll give you my take on that. It does really appear to me that you have an idiosyncratic way of establishing the relation between an expression and its various possible denotations. The case of
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feeling I get from my readings is that between 1874 and the 1960s, psychodynamics was stand-alone, but has since branched off and been embedded into modern psychology in its various branches. --
2273:
is wrong. If I've read you wrong, I apologize, but I beleive you've provided evidence supporting this assessment in your own words. It was not an insult, but an observation. Blessings. --
1230:
Iâve fixed the references, so that three support the intro-definition and Iâll keep my open for more down the road. Also, regarding the merge proposal there are about 40 pages that link to
2881:"Psychodynamic therapies depend upon a theory of inner conflict, wherein repressed behaviours and emotions surface into the patientâs consciousness; generally, one conflict is subconscious"
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that they have susceptibility to pharmacological and pathological modification and potentiation, much as the same as we have found for many of the complex emergent properties of the brain.
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as a modality of psychotherapy. Now, it does purport to expound "psychodynamic theory", and the way it does still does not satisfy me. I will, however, discuss that in a separate entry. __
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work represents a collected body as would be the case if there where doctorates issued in Psychodynamics or there existed within various psychology departments schools of Psychodynamics.
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to professional associations, educational institutions, journals, or even the odd website professing to represent Psychodynamics as a discipline, modality or system of psychotherapy? __
1043:
1316:
This volume is cited as a reference for the article's definition of Psychodynamics, however, having read the cited page I must conclude that this is a misapplication. The book reads:
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I feel I have now resolved this by explaining the different uses in the introduction, with the emphasis on Bowlby and current work rather than Freud. I hope this meets with approval.
1932:
Freud greatly admired Brucke and quickly became indoctrinated by this new dynamic physiology. Thanks to Freudâs singular genius, he was to discover some twenty years later that the
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My main point is that I think getting the first sentence to be very succinct in summarizing the content of the rest of the article would make further improvements much simpler. __
2030:
My personal opinion is that this article started poorly and has gotten markedly better in recent days. The paucity and "lightness" of referential material still plagues us. --
812:
To help appease your confusion, although Iâm not going to type up a history lesson for you, quoting from chapter one, âFreudâs Scientific Heritageâ, of Calvin Hallâs 1954 book
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referenced. Anyway, when I see something I don't like (and I can give some reason why I don't like it), I will express it whether or not I can provide any alternatives. __
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An important distinction which I believe should be presented in the first sentence is Psychodynamics' focus on the quantitative aspect of the interrelating forces of the
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cannot also mean Freudian. I seem to remember that Gregory Bateson, proposer of the 'double bind' was hot on this, beginning with systems theory and epistemology. --
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Sure, but we donât want people attacking the article with reference tags. I'll start your original definition idea by throwing one out here, off the top of my head;
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At the heart of psychological processes, according to Freud, is the ego, which he sees battling with three forces: the id, the super-ego, and the outside world.
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had already distinguished between psychic energy and psychic force, to cite one of many examples. Moreover, prior to the 1920s, approximately, the science of
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2696:
Can anyone explain to me what is going on in the current section? There is a mix between an ordered list and bullets, but I'm lost. Can we resolve this? --
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569:, nor should Psychodynamics be put in such a formal direct relation. This relation is professed to be based foremost on the application of the principle of
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Psychodynamics, as a concept, and psychodynamics as applied to psychotherapy, are two completely different entities. Merging them would be inappropriate.--
250:
Meco, please explain to me why you think a merge is needed? Also, explain to which article you feel should be merged into which and why? Thank you: --
2744:
I find it somewhat remarkable that a Wiki article on such a well-known theoretical framework lacks a section devoted to criticism of this framework.
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and this is his published definition of âpsychodynamicsâ in mate selection psychology, which he defines as âthe social, emotional, and psychological
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106:
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By the way, there is then a lot of good experimental evidence for particular theories, from Bowlby, Ainsworth, Tinbergen, and Harlow (Monkeys). --
2558:." This sounds too complicated, I think. Try to make it simpler. Also, it lacks a relation to the psychological meaning of drive. The second is: "
897:, who was a close associate with Helmholtz, who had worked previously with him in the years 1838-42, in the laboratory of the German physiologist
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is one that studies the transformations and exchanges of energy within the personality." This is all basic information, found in many books. --
1238:; confounding the two, in my opinion, will only further confuse the situation, where the separate terms are already confusing to begin with. --
388:
Ad hominem arguments are most unwelcome anywhere on Knowledge (XXG). I suggest such issues are best dealt with on individual user's talk pages.
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This is obviously not a reference to any modality or system of psychology, but merely defining a term which the book subsequently applies. __
233:, and if User:Sadi Carnot insists on solving the dispute by renaming the category, I shall nominate also the second category for deletion. __
1970:
What is it with you two? Why do you each have problems with everything in the article, these are not my views, they are published views? --
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1956:. This was Freudâs greatest achievement, and one of the greatest achievements in modern science, It is certainly a crucial event in the
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with no emphasis on describing any system of psychology with this same name. Why are there no references neither in this article nor in
901:, that Freud âquickly became indoctrinated by the new dynamic physiologyâ and that âhe was to discover some twenty years later that the
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2646:-energetics and its applications, essentially. The modern day equivalent of this is American biophysicist Don Haynieâs 2001 textbook
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think of deeply religous individuals as having a keen âreligious abilityâ, much like we do with other types of artistic temperament.
207:, i.e. psycho (mind) + dynamics (thermodynamics), is the theory, found in many forms (most of which derive from Freud and Jung), and
199:, and probably at least a dozen others that could stand to be written, should be added there as well. Hereâs a quick description to
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I think youâve objected now to just about every introduction we have tried? Is there any published definition that you do like? --
1066:, Freud proposed that psychological energy was constant (hence, emotional changes consisted only in displacements) tended to rest (
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version) to develop his psychology. Please, there are many books written on this, specifically Amazon shows that you can buy
33:
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on the topic of psychodynamics. After you read some of them, then please feel free to add to the article with references. --
1839:
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All of your points are good, but until we find better sources and references for the term, I would prefer to stay away from
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1962:
836:âThere were other influences that affected Freud even more profoundly. These came from physics. In the great physicist,
2642:, in which the first chapter is âbiological workâ, the second chapter is âprinciples of thermodynamicsâ, and the rest is
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Am I the only editor that is seriously sceptical to the validity of out current encyclopedic entry for Psychodynamics? __
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My intentions here are to define the term "psychodynamics", its history, and how it is used in psychology presently. --
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could be applied to manâs personality as well as to his body. When he made his discovery Freud proceeded to create a
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should be removed as it certainly stands to give the impression that this is a coherent, coordinated field of study.
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2129:â claims that Psychodynamics Research Institute has been in business since 1981 and on the Internet since Dec. 1999.
1389:. There's a huge difference between the two. As I see it, the article is currently ALL about the psychological term
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and some statements are inaccurate, lack a comprehensive understanding of psychodynamic theory, and need revision.
2747:
Is it really that there are no criticisms of psychodynamics that meet Knowledge (XXG) standards of notability ?
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sources as long as the article itself doesn't reflect this. In my opinion this article is seriously deficient. __
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is redundant as long as thermodynamics is mentioned; the initial "in science" is also superfluous. The trailing
2531:
I would characterize your sentence as being very cluttered. Let's also prune the verbosity: You don't need both
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650:â. Your ignorance is irritating, but let me give you one basic example, namely that of the famous psychologist
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2123:- Study Group on Psychodynamic Psychotherapy, meeting monthly since 1978, The Washington School of Psychiatry.
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Sciences: âPsychological processes are flows of psychological energy in a complex brain. Thus, Freud founded
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This is the basis of Freud's psychology. Hall goes on to discuss how the founding thermodynamicists, namely â
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Being far from certain that that is what DashaKat is intending, I'd first like simply to point to DashaKat's
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in relation to the human psyche. Quoting from page 64 of Calvin S. Hall and Vernon J. Nordbyâs 1973 book
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Then the second is erroneously attributed to the same location as the first. This should be corrected. __
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I find it noteworthy that before User:Sadi Carnot started the current article in March of 2006, only the
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on Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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He derived the concept of âentropyâ based on a foot-noted supposition, namely âno change occurs in the
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Mechanical Theory of Heat â Nine Memoirs on the development of concept of "Entropy" by Rudolf Clausius
1874:- WebMD, Stedmanâs Medical Dictionary 28th Edition, CopyrightŠ 2006_Lippincott Williams & Wilkins.
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565:(which User:Sadi Carnot has used as corroboration for this linkage) isn't shown as a sub-category of
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movement psychologist Dr. Stuart Heller and transpersonal psychologist Dr. Beth Hedva, among others.
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throughout the structures of the psyche, and the transfer of energy from one structure to another.
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article, and the issue has become clearer to me. I now can see that this article does not deal with
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I have no problem with this. I do have a problem with your on-going deference to Meco, however. --
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2883:. I am not sure how the last phrase of this fits in or even what it means. Can anyone clarify?
1147:
Having read pages 4-5 which are cited in the article as a reference for the following statements:
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Also threats are not welcome conceptions in Knowledge (XXG), thusly go ahead and please nominate
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816:: first in 1859, when Freud was three, his family took him to Vienna to see the publication of
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and his âOn Psychic Energyâ are good books and papers on psychodynamics. Talk more later: --
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1320:"The forces, motives, and energy generated by the deepest of human needs are referred to as
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step-by-step. Could you please first state below what you have issues with. Thank-you. --
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Meco, you can also reference Tasman, Kay, and Lieberman's 1997, 1900-page, two-volume opus
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Either you start contributing to this article or please go somewhere else. Thank-you: --
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The second is a direct quote off the back cover of the Norton & Co. 1960 edition of
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something to the effect that, âmy new theory is the thermodynamics of psychologyâ. --
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2551:"psychodynamics is the application of the principles of thermodynamics to psychology"
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version) to develop his psychology and Jung used both the 1st and the 2nd law (the
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468:. etc., and there is not reason why they should all be merged into one article. --
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Treatise on the Mechanical Theory of Heat and its Application to the Steam-Engine
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extension through the Jungian school's application of thermodynamic metaphors. __
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2677:(note the hyphen), is that branch of science which treats of the phenomena of
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And what is your point? Everything in all the related articles is sourced? --
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Another term for thermodynamics, particularly in the late 19th century, was â
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The definiton is fine, that's not what I'm complaing about. He is defining a
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You ask for links to groups and such, etc., so hereâs a few more examples:
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entropy, referring to resistances in the external world mediated by the ego
1639:. That said, I am satisfied with the distinction between the discipline of
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that we will find the original definition of psychodynamics. Also, Jungâs
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field, and not in the intro paragraph as it gives a mistaken impression.
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I just don't see a coherent argument for the way you present the term
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1949:
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Iâve used two new references for the introduction per your request:
2750:
Could someone with relevant knowledge please address this issue ?
1635:
Before you get deeper in pulling cheapshots you might wish to read
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Perhaps you should try reading Edoardo Weissâ 1950, 268 page book
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makes use of two basic principles, both of which were derived from
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of some of what he/she wrote above. Now, DashaKat has performed a
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I'm confused -- wherein lies the difference between (a) and (b)?
2475:, referring to resistances in the external world mediated by the
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is the study of the interrelationship of various parts of the
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2627:â, and the term âenergeticsâ was mostly used in reference to
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drive, meaning to impart forward motion to by physical force
2145:- A Critique Is Child Father to the Man?, Derek J. Lainsbury
1780:
often refers to Psychodynamics, but I believe that the term
1555:
Would it not be better to rename this article for instance
1491:
Further good references to anyone else who has reservations
2093:
there a book on this topic that I could buy off Amazon? --
1713:. W.W. Norton & Company. pp. (4-5). ISBN 0-393-0042-3.
945:
Correctness", Answers.Com gives the following definition:
893:â had an influence on Freud and that after studying under
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of Fireâ, the very same paper that founded the science of
1054:
on the concept of psychological energy, which he called
203:
that I just found. From the books I have read and own,
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1636:
1046:
of Robin Robertson and Allan Combs 1995, 408-page book
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510:
2447:
is the application of the principles and concepts of
101:, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
2483:, especially in relation to the interaction of the
1557:
Influences of thermodynamics on Freudian psychology
418:
agree that the merger issue should be discussed? __
2659:â. In 1876, for instance, American civil engineer
2631:. One example, is American physiological chemist
2459:, meaning to impart forward motion to by physical
1128:is; a theory that goes back over a 1,000 years. --
552:Spurious establishment of thermodynamics parentage
2619:was still referred to by many as the âscience of
556:I find the connection between Psychodynamics and
2583:If you want to give it another try, go ahead! __
2056:was still referred to by many as the science of
573:, indeed on the entropy page there is a link to
2818:The problems arise from conflicting definitions
2017:informing the root of contention on all fronts.
924:Is anything at all about this article reliable?
931:http://members.shaw.ca/finkleman/psychoDYN.htm
1903:It's in one of the three references cited. --
8:
2549:would look better in the first clause: i.e.
2044:My efforts to reference different terms for
1745:: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (
1234:and a different 40 or so pages that link to
2879:In the introduction there is the sentence;
1385:whereas you read this as a definition of a
844:. This principle stated, in effect, that
820:âs Origin of Species. The following year
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2776:for any of the claims of psychodynamics?
2376:genetic constitution and his environment.
1799:) as opposed to the qualitative aspects.
1573:Meco, your entire agenda is turning into
1849:The Structure and Dynamics of the Psyche
1689:as they relate to mental, emotional, or
828:when he demonstrated, in 1860, that the
162:Removed cfdnotice, cfd has completed. --
2637:Bioenergetics â the Molecular Basis of
1701:
1048:Chaos Theory in Psychology and the Life
642:Leontes, you state âwithin psychology,
49:
19:
1819:Similarly I find that the mention of "
1738:
1274:feel that they have touched infinity.
666:is concerned with the distribution of
115:Knowledge (XXG):WikiProject Psychology
2562:." This is too short. The third is: "
2368:Replacement first sentence also awful
1914:Specifically, from page 13 of Hallâs
1868:- McGraw-Hill Science Tech Dictionary
7:
705:, was developed by the great German
231:Category:Psychodynamic psychotherapy
95:This article is within the scope of
2938:High-importance psychology articles
2635:âs very popular 1973, 2nd edition,
2623:â, among other names, such as the â
1328:which means 'soul' or 'heart,' and
1312:Beneath Mate Selection and Marriage
808:History lesson for misinformed meco
38:It is of interest to the following
2121:Columbia Academy of Psychodynamics
1843:Physiology by German physiologist
1357:American Psychological Association
14:
2149:Psychodynamics of Drug Dependence
1840:Knowledge (XXG):Original research
1042:Hereâs another direct quote from
1038:Another reference to appease meco
951:constitution and his environment.
2639:Biological Energy Transformation
2159:Quantum Psychodynamics of Dreams
1092:, found in multiple chapters. --
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72:
51:
20:
2943:WikiProject Psychology articles
1726:A Primer in Freudian Psychology
814:A Primer in Freudian Psychology
175:It should properly be moved to
135:This article has been rated as
118:Template:WikiProject Psychology
2154:Group psychodynamics and Cults
2138:Psychodynamics of Scapegoating
853:was the golden age of energy:
840:, formulated the principle of
660:A Primer in Jungian Psychology
654:who has volumes written about
229:is (almost) as unjustified as
179:and the related terms such as
1:
1916:Primer in Freudian Psychology
109:and see a list of open tasks.
2893:21:11, 16 January 2014 (UTC)
1306:21:00, 25 October 2012 (UTC)
970:Principles of Psychodynamics
781:Freud used the 1st law (the
701:, mathematically defined as
695:second law of thermodynamics
586:no mention of thermodynamics
584:article existed, and it had
462:parent-infant psychodynamics
2933:C-Class psychology articles
2786:17:20, 7 January 2013 (UTC)
2735:18:13, 10 August 2008 (UTC)
2720:17:55, 10 August 2008 (UTC)
2560:energy, referring to libido
2245:to tend toward the bullying
1766:, 2000, CD-ROM, version 2.5
1641:Psychodynamic psychotherapy
1395:Psychodynamic psychotherapy
1232:psychodynamic psychotherapy
1090:psychodynamic psychotherapy
684:first law of thermodynamics
582:Psychodynamic psychotherapy
563:Category:Jungian psychology
519:Psychodynamic psychotherapy
458:relationship psychodynamics
209:psychodynamic psychotherapy
201:psychodynamic psychotherapy
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2133:The Psychodynamics of News
1834:08:43, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
141:project's importance scale
2669:mechanical theory of heat
2657:mechanical theory of heat
2649:Biological Thermodynamics
1724:Hall, Calvin, S. (1954).
1693:forces especially at the
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2070:What is your opinion on
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2004:18:54, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
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910:books and about a dozen
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680:principle of equivalence
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255:09:08, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
238:08:41, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
216:05:23, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
2766:23:52, 7 May 2011 (UTC)
2661:Richard Sears McCulloch
2479:, and others, etc., to
2106:Links and related pages
1872:What is psychodynamics?
1802:I find the mention of "
1709:Freud, Sigmund (1923).
1603:of mental or emotional
1387:system of psychotherapy
1355:and is a member of the
567:Category:Thermodynamics
273:category:psychodynamics
227:Category:Psychodynamics
181:regression (psychology)
177:Category:Psychodynamics
167:17:28, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
2875:Introductory confusion
2610:Historical terminology
2510:Like or don't like? --
2453:laws of thermodynamics
1821:mental, emotional, or
903:laws of thermodynamics
842:conservation of energy
759:âs 1824 paper âOn the
713:between 1850 and 1865:
672:Jungian psychodynamics
193:id, ego, and super-ego
98:WikiProject Psychology
28:This article is rated
2740:No Criticism AT ALLÂ ?
2117:â Powerpoint Overview
1958:history of psychology
1878:I hope this helps? --
1539:) 14:20, May 30, 2007
1070:) through discharge (
859:electromagnetic field
838:Hermann von Helmholtz
575:Psychological entropy
466:social-psychodynamics
32:on Knowledge (XXG)'s
2541:; the mentioning of
1663:It currently reads:
851:theory of relativity
824:founded the science
697:).â The concept of
686:) and the principle
197:entropy (psychology)
2774:scientific evidence
2671:, sometimes called
1353:clinical psychology
588:whatsoever. In the
121:psychology articles
2127:Psychodynamics.com
1997:dynamic psychology
1993:dynamic psychology
1985:dynamic psychology
1942:dynamic psychology
1938:dynamic psychology
1888:Dynamic psychology
1782:dynamic psychology
1711:The Ego and the Id
1675:dynamic psychology
1192:dynamic psychology
1188:The Ego and the Id
1143:The Ego and the Id
34:content assessment
2802:comment added by
2756:comment added by
2164:To name a few. --
1967:
1966:
1948:and exchanges of
1728:. Meridian Book.
1577:. To quote form
1541:
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707:thermodynamicist
678:. They are the
515:radical re-write
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887:Josiah Gibbs
868:
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791:12,469 books
761:Motive Power
753:engine cycle
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40:WikiProjects
2898:(a) vs. (b)
2804:83.10.12.76
2758:89.178.36.3
2752:âPreceding
2727:Majicshrink
2712:Majicshrink
2684:Sadi Carnot
2602:Sadi Carnot
2512:Sadi Carnot
2489:unconscious
2395:Sadi Carnot
2353:Sadi Carnot
2205:Sadi Carnot
2181:Sadi Carnot
2166:Sadi Carnot
2095:Sadi Carnot
2076:Sex Economy
2062:Sadi Carnot
1972:Sadi Carnot
1954:personality
1952:within the
1918:(1999 ed.):
1905:Sadi Carnot
1880:Sadi Carnot
1853:Sadi Carnot
1809:personality
1793:unconscious
1695:unconscious
1683:personality
1620:Sadi Carnot
1529:Sadi Carnot
1523:âPreceding
1476:Sadi Carnot
1448:Sadi Carnot
1366:Sadi Carnot
1240:Sadi Carnot
1196:Sadi Carnot
1171:unconscious
1130:Sadi Carnot
1094:Sadi Carnot
1076:Sadi Carnot
1023:Sadi Carnot
983:Sadi Carnot
977:who define
916:Sadi Carnot
883:Lord Kelvin
879:James Joule
795:Sadi Carnot
757:Sadi Carnot
749:heat engine
605:Sadi Carnot
470:Sadi Carnot
277:Sadi Carnot
252:Sadi Carnot
213:Sadi Carnot
2927:Categories
2911:Mentropane
2859:Lindosland
2844:Lindosland
2830:Lindosland
2621:energetics
2533:principles
2481:psychology
2058:energetics
1733:0452011833
1667:psychology
1601:psychology
1086:Psychiatry
875:Max Planck
826:psychology
751:during an
511:retraction
330:discourse.
112:Psychology
103:Psychology
59:Psychology
2825:Evolution
2698:1000Faces
2663:, in his
2485:conscious
1789:conscious
1741:cite book
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1072:catharsis
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783:Helmholtz
652:Carl Jung
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2191:DashaKat
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164:Kbdank71
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676:physics
656:entropy
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571:entropy
517:of the
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2471:, and
2469:libido
2465:energy
1950:energy
1825:forces
1813:psyche
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1605:forces
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