636:) There are references to "Willem Boy" (yes Willem according to the book) being contracted to first and foremost build royal tombs in Riddarholmskyrkan and to improve the old royal tombs. This included the new resting place for Gustav Vasa and his wives, and later it would include Johans wife Katarina. Willem Boy worked sporadicly from the time of Erik XIV to the time of Johan III in association with another architect called Arendt Palardin. It says that "their work was finished in 1590 but it doesn't say very plain if they worked on the spire itself or if it was added later. I've only skimmed the book but found no (logical) reference to a spire. Perhaps we should investigate this Arendt Palardin to see what he was involved with and draw some clues from there?
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840:, i.e. a proper noun. Therefore it's not actually the case that "Riddarholmen Church" would mean "The church of the Riddarholm", since Riddarholmen is the complete and indivisible name of the place. The key about the church name is that it's composed of two elements: the place name and the building - name + church. When you put the name "Riddarholmen" together with "kyrkan" ("the church") in Swedish, you as it happens ends up with "Riddarholmskyrkan" because of the way the Swedish language operates, but it doesn't mean the name Riddarholmen in any other way can be split up like you suggest; there's no place called "Riddarholm". If on the other hand the place name would have been e.g.
787:, the official tourist site of Stockholm, call it "Riddarholmen Church". "Riddarholm" in fact is not a name nor a word in Swedish but a neologism invented here on this page. The name of the island which gave name to the church is "Riddarholmen". The church is called "Riddarholmskyrkan" in Swedish after the island. Swedish grammar does however not apply to English. (What "Riddarholmen" would be translated to in English has also nothing to do with anything.) I suggest that the article is re-named "Riddarholmen Church".
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844:, well then I would have agreed with you, it should obviously be "Vaxholm Church" — because Vaxholm is the place name. So if we want to keep the structure of the name as it is now, I would keep arguing that it should be "Riddarholmen Church". The only alternative as I see it is if we consider the whole of "Riddarholmskyrkan" as a proper name (and there may be arguments for this) and use the Swedish name in full for the English article. Do you see my point?
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824:, I believe I understand your point and appreciate that you want to discuss the question. However, I believe that you may be mistaking part of the name of the place for a definitive article? It's a bit messy, but simply put it is the case that some place names in Swedish have incorporated a definitive article (much like in e.g. French, as in
608:ändringar. Utförandet av Vilhelm Boys förslag blev fördröjt till 1589. Genom en skrivelse den 6 januari detta år tillsades borgmöstare Olof Gregersson att låta bygga tornspiran efter Boys förslag och klä den med koppar. Tornspiran var enkel, smal och 291 fot höjd. Den förstördes 1835 av ett blixtnedslag.
1222:, chapter 3, section 10. "Riddarholmen church" follows a common pattern in English for naming buildings. I think "Riddarholmen Church" is better than "Riddarholmskyrkan" as the name explains to those that don't speak Swedish what kind of building it is, but I won't oppose a move to Riddarholmskyrkan.
1563:
Well, the two last of those examples are actually perfectly in line with our arguments here. The name of Högalidskyrkan in
English should be Högalid Church, not Högalids Church, because Högalid is the name of the place. Just like Riddarholmen is the name of the place. It's not more difficult than
607:
Till det gamla franciskanerklostrets kyrka i
Stockholm, som genomgått en fullständig ombyggnad åren 1568-1576, beordrade kungen 1581 borgmästaren att där låta bygga en hög och vacker spira. Ritningen behagade inte kungen. Den 24 mars 1584 skrev han till Vilhelm Boy och beordrade honom att göra
1244:
in
Swedish words, as used in the Swedish language, to the meaning of that word in English. It doesn't work that way, and "Riddarholmen church" does not (not) "follow a common pattern in English", neither with the erroneous small 'c' on church, nor as per common English usage for church names.
956:". In English, Riddarholmen will be the subject of standard English grammar as applied to loan words, i.e., the grammatical status of the final letters will not be second-guessed, irrespective if this offends the aestetic sensitivities of Swedish-speaking people such as myself.
1296:
Grammar is the same in every language as far as translating it correctly goes. Michelin and the other linguistically knowledgeable websites know that, and it would be a shame, literally, if
Knowledge (XXG) diverts from what is normal for church names in English.
602:) found through Googling (I haven't scrutinized the origins of the text), says that the design for the spire was ordered by the king in 1584, and that building commenced in 1589. This would make the king in question John III of Sweden.
584:
according to the
Swedish Knowledge (XXG), the foundation of the Spire was laid (some sort of new hall was added) in the 15th century, possibly by Johan II, but the spire itself wasn't added until 16th century by Johan III.
1049:, the official tourist site of Stockholm, call it "Riddarholmen Church", and these seem to me to be far more reliable sources than trevl.eu and some other sites which are quoted in the discussion on the talk page.
1564:
that. And what your point with
Slottskyrkan is I don't understand. According to your own logic, I can only assume you would want to rename it "Slott Church". Which is even more absurd than Riddarholm Church.
1075:
is knowledgeable enough to use. Tourist information about Sweden by Swedes, and the Royal Court, are notorious for their
Swenglish. The church is not (not) called "Riddarholmenskyrkan" in Swedish. In
1463:
nomination because 3 Swedes (who want us to use
Swedish words in English) agree, no matter what major international tourism organizations think. How convincing is that in the real (English) world? --
1218:
noun, which means that it is treated as a unit and that -en in the name is no longer considered to be a definite article. "Riddarholm" is a made-up name that doesn't follow swedish grammar. See
952:, in order to combine it with another word (in this case with an "s" added as a binder), is a specific feature of Swedish grammar. It is the import of Swedish grammatical rules that is "
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1373:. Found those two glaring errors by just checking their names of places in my home town. Yeah, that seems like a reasonable approach. Seriously, you must be joking. –
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I see that this article used to be named "Riddarholmen Church" but was moved to "Riddarholm Church". In my opinion this makes no sense at all. Both the
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1545:. There are many more examples of the names of Swedish churches being named correctly in English by major tourism authorities and on this project. --
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It's rather sad to see that
Michelin's educated & correct name form does not make sense to you. I didn't tell them what to call the church. --
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Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a
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Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a
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I can't confirm this with any official sources right now, not even the official
Swedish Royals page described it, but I'll keep looking
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1322:(preference for English names where natural) per previous arguments given. SergeWoodzing's arguments do not make any sense to me. –
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Good idea to rename the church so that all those travel sites (with good knowledge of English), which you ignored, will be wrong? --
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OK. I'm putting it up for suggested move. I've explained my reasons why and hoped we could sort it out here but it doesn't seem so.
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
415:-related articles on Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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by Swedes is not as relevant as correct English. The church is not (not) called "Riddarholmenskyrkan" in Swedish. --
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Swedish is my 2nd language & I've taught it (& English) since 1968. I'm not doing any "mistaking". In
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1067:"Riddarholmen Church" means "Church of the Riddarholm" = inappropriate name.
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Ah, you mean we should put all our trust in a website that can't even spell
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Does anyone know if the spire really was added during the reign of
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By the way, this article looks exactly the same as this website:
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http://www.encyclopedia-glossary.com/en/Riddarholmskyrkan.html
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707:) interpretation of the Swedish name is incorrect. It's like
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and that can't use the correct official English name of the
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The following discussion is an archived discussion of a
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all speak Swedish natively and all support the move to
1045:(who are responsible for the upkeep of the church) and
832:; you wouldn't say "University of the Havre", you say "
783:(who are responsible for the upkeep of the church) and
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in standard English is Riddarholm Church, as well as
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in standard English is Riddarholm Church, as well as
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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a
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670:. No further edits should be made to this section.
768:. No further edits should be made to this section.
598:The following text in Swedish, taken from a pdf (
600:http://www.ukforsk.se/svenparm/Sv6/Sv6-S-gard.pdf
1485:the move in accordance with my arguments above.
1240:You are applying your own personal opinion of
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569:, he rebuilt a lot of churches and castles.
1083:- in the name of the island. The church is
866:- in the name of the island. The church is
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902:, etc etc etc etc... Please stop this! --
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1214:. The name Riddarholmen is a
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872:Church of the Knights' Island
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572:Not sure, will check it out.
508:and see a list of open tasks.
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836:"). So it's still in full a
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1418:. I trust them on this.
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679:. Unopposed for a week.
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1529:, not Slottet Church,
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1175:Knight Island's Church
1144:. The island is named
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123:Architecture
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70:Architecture
51:WikiProjects
1586:... Again:
1459:to approve
1457:a supporter
1216:lexicalized
1001:move review
766:move review
668:move review
41:Start-class
1626:Categories
1452:omment by
1206:to either
1136:to either
1087:not (not)
870:not (not)
634:9185057479
511:Cemeteries
502:Cemeteries
474:Cemeteries
1069:Swenglish
954:Swenglish
826:La Ciotat
804:Swenglish
705:Swenglish
1566:Yakikaki
1487:Yakikaki
1404:User:Sjö
1318:move to
1266:move to
1073:Michelin
1051:Yakikaki
918:Yakikaki
846:Yakikaki
830:Le Havre
789:Yakikaki
681:Favonian
567:John III
1519:Comment
1483:support
1400:Comment
1375:Elisson
1324:Elisson
1316:Support
1280:Tomas e
1264:Support
1204:Support
1134:Support
1015:Sceptre
958:Tomas e
842:Vaxholm
731:Support
563:John II
538:on the
449:on the
344:on the
255:on the
150:on the
1270:, but
1115:&
1065:Oppose
898:&
643:Fred26
592:Fred26
581:EDIT:
422:Sweden
413:Sweden
369:Sweden
47:scale.
1582:Umm,
1506:Fixed
1444:Extra
1010:Moved
619:Alarm
1596:talk
1590:. --
1570:talk
1551:talk
1537:and
1491:talk
1469:talk
1432:Talk
1410:and
1352:talk
1303:talk
1284:talk
1251:talk
1228:talk
1220:here
1191:talk
1185:. --
1181:nor
1162:Talk
1125:talk
1117:here
1113:here
1109:here
1105:here
1101:here
1097:here
1055:talk
1020:talk
962:talk
936:talk
922:talk
908:talk
900:here
896:here
892:here
888:here
884:here
880:here
850:talk
838:name
812:talk
793:talk
775:Name
743:talk
737:. --
735:this
721:talk
685:talk
631:ISBN
557:2005
1541:is
1533:is
1525:is
1479:JIP
1224:Sjö
1210:or
1140:or
1012:.
828:or
758:.
530:Low
441:Low
336:Low
247:Low
142:Low
1628::
1598:)
1572:)
1553:)
1493:)
1471:)
1430:|
1406:,
1402::
1382:•
1378:•
1354:)
1331:•
1327:•
1305:)
1297:--
1286:)
1253:)
1245:--
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1193:)
1160:|
1127:)
1111:,
1107:,
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1033:→
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697:→
687:)
660:.
1594:(
1568:(
1549:(
1489:(
1467:(
1461:h
1450:c
1447:C
1427:P
1424:I
1421:J
1386:•
1384:C
1380:T
1350:(
1335:•
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1301:(
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719:(
683:(
542:.
453:.
348:.
259:.
154:.
53::
20:)
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