496:). In this case, given that there was some debate over whether a particular phrasing implied 'intent' (on the part of the driver), the most conservative option would be whichever doesn't imply intent. However, there was some disagreement on which of these proposals imply intent; some felt that "attack" implies intent and that "rampage" didn't, and some editors felt the opposite way, so it's difficult to decide which of these doesn't imply intent. Few editors analysed what term RS are using, which makes that option a dead end too. I've read the discussion up and down twice and cannot find a reasonable metric to decide which formulation is the more conservative option, so I think a straight vote is the only fair way to decide here. By the numbers it seems "attack" has the most support, although I note the caveat that "attack" was proposed before the other options which skews the numbers (earlier voters may have preferred another variation but didn't see it at the time they voted).Of course, this is without prejudice to another RM to change the verb. On that note, it may be worth noting that other proposals within this RM included dropping the "2021" at the start
1505:
then about the latter point. While we did need to urgently change the title, calling this an attack just like calling something a murder implies something about a living person we need to wait for a court case to resolve. So realistically there was a good chance a few days was never going to be enough. While we no longer have the uncertainty we did yesterday e.g. the chance this was simply someone who did something crazy in a panic now seems very low, and it does seem quite likely this was an attack, we still should wait for a court case to resolve that. When I came today and found this at rampage, I was initially thinking WTF? But having read the discussion and look at the other exampled and thought about it more I've decided it's the best solution to the problem of not implying something about a living person while recognising how horrifying the event was something which can't be conveyed by either crash or incident.
492:). Overall editors feel that both "crash" and "incident" are euphemisms and don't accurately describe the event. Various verbs were proposed in the discussion, of which "attack", "rampage" and "ramming" were most prominent. As usual, since the RM system centres the discussion around the originally proposed title, it is difficult to decide which of the titles proposed within the discussion has consensus. However, it would also be inappropriate to close this with no action and require folks to start another RM to have the page moved, given that there is clearly consensus against the current title.In such a situation, I'd generally lean towards choosing the most conservative of the proposed titles, so long as it has support and doesn't violate an overriding policy (eg
2363:
said that they would like a shorter title. I suggest something like "2021 Wisconsin parade SUV rampage", "2021 Wisconsin parade SUV attack," or "2021 Wisconsin parade massacre," or "2021 Wisconsin parade tragedy." We don't need perfect; we just need good. "Waukesha" is probably less helpful for a global reader who has no idea where
Waukesha is, but would probably know Wisconsin. Once the discussion is closed and the move is done, we can regroup, see how events develop and a further refinement of the title might be needed. Could some intrepid admin please close this?
2771:) That's why I used the word accusations. The reasons I used accusations is because I know the clams have ben refuted by law enforcement. The reason I went into the subject is because there is reasoning to believe the attack could've ben politically motivated. With him supporting BLM, him making Facebook post about him hearting white people, him showing sings of political extremism, and the Kyle Rittenhouse being found not guilty of all charges in Wisconsin a few days ago. with all do respectĀ :). If more reliable information coms out I will use it.
1707:- euphemisms like "incident" are unencyclopedic. This current title is likewise silly. A rampage would require intent, and as of yet there has been no claim that this is the case, nothing in the article supports it, and it is very much OR for an editor to claim it is. It is neither the common name or a neutral description. Incident is an improvement, but better still would just be attack, with or without ramming per the large number of sources that support it.
31:
1917:. Please change the title from "car crash". Car crash is essentially equivalent to "car accident" and this was clearly not an accident. I do not think "attack" is appropriate either as no premeditated motive has been established yet. I thought "rampage" worked well, as it implies violence and recklessness, both of which were clearly present. Please change away from simple "crash"!
185:, motive, intent, and premeditation, which has not yet been proven. We don't yet know if this was a premeditated targeted attack, or something else. Just as we cannot call the killers of Ahmaud Arbery "murderers" unless they are duly convicted of that crime, IMO we can't call this an "attack" until there is an admission of guilt or a conviction of that premeditated offense.
1622:- Use attack. Attack doesn't require there to be premeditation, just intent. The vehicle was clearly wasn't a runaway, it was driven with intent as it dodged and accelerated. Sources discuss the car weaving around barricades to enter the road. In normal parlance if a person running down a sidewalk pushed people out of their way they would be said to be attacking people.
1221:- I would support a title such as "pedestrian killings" - it's more descriptive of what occurred, and yet avoids the problem of assuming any sort of specific malicious intent or motivation from the alleged perpetrator. Whether or not this was an intentional attack or homicidally reckless driving, the result is the same - the act killed five people.
99:
3347:
Criminal law covers intentional and reckless acts (as well as strict liability offences which might concern acts neither intentional or reckless), so criminal intent is not always a must. I am no expert on
Bulgarian law or language, so will defer to your knowledge of the 2009 incident. (Edit: But the
3274:
and this event appear to be significantly different. The former was a case of bus that was driving over the speed limit in the rain, colliding with 3 cars. The latter is a case where a person intentionally drove an SUV into a parade route, running over many people and killing at least 6. I don't have
2974:
Usually, for a move to be implemented, it requires a consensus for it, rather than a lack of a consensus against of it (we are biased towards stability) - and I'm not even sure I would agree that there isn't a consensus against it. And I fully agree with letting the RM discussion decide, which is why
2680:
I'm speaking here as the admin who move-protected the page (heck I've actually protected just everything about this page). The move protection is due to expire in around one hour from me writing this comment. I'm giving notice that I plan on extending this move-protection, and I want to be very clear
2362:
I think discussion has gone on long enough, and both the comments above and the evidence in the discussion section below indicates that "crash" and "incident" are too milquetoast, and that a stronger word denoting extreme violence, like "rampage" or "attack" would be more accurate. Many editors have
1235:
Thus far there seems to be a rough consensus for "car attack". This is also the title used in most
Knowledge articles of the same nature. We do not wait for convictions, because this can take year to play out in court. Sources are currently calling this an attack. A car was used. It happened at
3229:
Yes! And I think your description goes a long way in explaining the viscerally negative reaction that many North
American editors have to this title. A crash normally implies a collision with an inanimate object in North America. In the UK, which I believe is the location of the editor who invented
1367:
I believe killings or pedestrian killings would be correct, maybe deaths until someone is charged. This wasn't an attack, tragically these events appear secondary to another incident. Nor was this a crash or a rampage, both imply the actions were without intent. We certainly don't need what type of
387:
I'm noting here that I've semi-protected this talk page for a few hours - depending on what happens afterwards it might even be renewed. This is due to unregistered editors flooding this page with excessive requests for a page rename, which is a discussion already seriously underway above and which
2729:
Nope, that's not the way it works - you're required to gain consensus for any proposed addition. And specifically, you're using unreliable sources and polemic political commentators to make wild, unsupported accusations which have actually been refuted by law enforcement officials, who have stated
1504:
nearly a day ago I said we urgently need to change the title from attack since we need to wait a few days for things to sort themselves out instead of implying it was an intentional act of violence. However after I said it I begun to think a bit more ad have since formed the conclusion I was wrong
1166:
close and move very soon. (Note that literally not a single !vote at the time I write this supports the current title. If that's not SNOW, I don't know what is.) I don't think I'm being hyperbolic when I say that
Knowledge's credibility is in question the longer we keep this current title for this
715:
In light of the recent moves, I thought I'd clarify my comment by noting that I strongly oppose "car crash," I support using the terms "mass casualty event" (1st choice), "mass killing", or "rampage", as have been discussed below. I can also live with the terms "incident" or "attack", though those
2315:
Words like "car crash" and "incident" give the impression that the tragedy was an accident. Suspect has been charged with five counts of intentional first-degree homicide. The event has been deemed an intentional act by law enforcement and numerous reliable sources refer to it as an "attack." The
1335:
I would be fine shortening this to "2021 Waukesha parade rampage." I don't think "car" is necessary. "SUV" is excessively specific, and "Christmas" has nothing to do with it, other than being the reason for the parade. As long as there isn't another parade rampage in
Waukesha in 2021, we don't
1186:
Car crash extremely downplays (unintentionally) what happened here. I'm not sure incident is strong enough but is better than car crash. I would not support attack right now because it does not seem as though he was specifically attacking the parade, but rather was driving with such unbelievable
2664:
supports "car crash". And the only support for "incident" was just to get it away from "car crash". There was multiple comments supporting "Rampage". I recommend someone with authority close the RM, change the title from "crash" to "rampage", and then open a new RM to decide between
Rampage,
3021:
The proper time to judge the consensus, and where the consensus is to move the title to, would have been at the end of the RM. The move was premature, hence why I requested it be reverted - I've opened a discussion on
Anthony Appleyard's talk page about this decision if you want to contribute.
1270:
First and most importantly, thank you for moving the title. That was the essential thing to do. With that done, I agree with
Bueller 007 that the current title could be improved upon, for the reasons they indicate. The title now could be a linguist's case study of the ambiguity of English. My
1255:
I'm not entirely opposed to "rampage" (although I don't particularly like it), but "car rampage" is daft. It was an SUV, not a car, and the SUV didn't do the rampaging. Also, "parade car rampage" could be interpreted as it meaning that one of the cars in the parade was used for the rampage.
243:
The difference is "murder of X" indicates a specific criminal offence of murder, whereas "attack" does not indicate a specific criminal offence. It might imply one, but you could say the same for "rampage" which covers intentional or reckless violent/riotous action. Hitting a crowd via either
2681:
this is due to one circumstance: there is an open RM proposal. Unless this RM proposal is closed FIRST it's just going to continue the mess. Once this is closed I'll remove the protection and/or endorse the closer implementing the close. And then, no doubt, a new discussion can start. --
1245:
I chose "rampage" instead of "attack". The word rampage implies violence, recklessness, disregard for safetly. It does not necessarily involve the same level of intent as an attack. Seems like an accurate word for what happened: extreme violence, but without clear intent.
2033:
does not, even though the loss of life was less in the
Rittenhouse incident. This is a bad look for Knowledge to have this innocuous-sounding title for such a serious event. I'll try and do some research about other options and how other articles have been phrased. Maybe
2543:
736:
Support change from 'crash' to 'attack,' based on live press conference from law enforcement that this incident was intentional, and that previously the suspect (as he is called now) tried to run over the mother of his child (who had tire tracks on her pants leg!)
3318:
There was some element of criminal intent in Yambol, or the driver wouldn't have been convicted. Speed played a factor in both crashes. You might be right about intent in Waukesha, too, but the Canadian thing to do is wait to hear what the suspect has to say.
226:
is a definition of intent ("try to" = "intend to"). NorthBySouthBaranof offered four approximate synonyms, to say "well here's this definition that closely matches two of your four similar characterizations" is to provide evidence in favor of the point.
3303:
I think you're right, I was looking at a story on a different bus crash in Bulgaria. Still, in the case of Yambol, there were mechanical issues with the bus, rather than an intentional act. "Crash" does not properly describe what occurred in Waukesha.
1561:
you truly believe the court will hear how this potential defendant was "simply someone who did something crazy in a panic" and thereby not criminally responsible for this "horrifying" act, the onus is entirely on him to make a not guilty plea,
2107:
in that case, the article will remain at "Killing." I would not be opposed to "pedestrian killings" or some other construction which clearly shows that homicide was involved. But declaring this to be an "attack" is assuming facts not proven.
1349:
I support this go back to the original, unique, WP:NATURAL, highly descriptive "2021 Waukesha Christmas Parade Attack". If anyone doesn't like "attack" for whatever unfathomable reasons, "rampage" or "killings" is quite alright as well.
2748:, there is consensus that the New York Post is "generally unreliable for factual reporting," and there is consensus that Heavy.com "should not be relied upon for any serious or contentious statements" The third source used is a Fox News
1604:
title "2021 Waukesha Christmas parade car rampage" is highly descriptive and unique. The purpose of titles is to help users find content. The mealy-mouthed "incident" could apply to anything. There is no need to bowdlerize Knowledge.
2876:ā Page moved during ongoing RM, new title appears less encyclopaedic and is used primarily by less reliable sources such as the Sun and the NY Post. Page move protected; requested title is the title the article was moved to following a
2002:
Kyle Rittenhouse was also charged with intentional homicide; we (correctly) did not describe that event as an "attack." Just as Rittenhouse was, the alleged perpetrator of this incident is entitled to the same presumption of innocence.
302:
My point is "rampage" implies conduct which is criminal. If "attack" is best avoided, as it implies criminal conduct which is not proven unless a conviction is secured, then it must follow "rampage" must be avoided on the same grounds.
1005:
is my preferred term, but I didn't think we were voting on that now. Though others above have opposed this change for that reason, so I'll say I agree with that. Am choosing "support" now only to get us off this terrible title ASAP.
2645:
Perhaps I'm just bananas, but the title of the article doesn't actually have any significant meaning. Perhaps we should all just wait a week, see what information is available, and then look into what title the article should be at?
207:
You don't get to make up your own definitions. An attack is merely an action against someone or something using violence, in a belligerent fashion. An animal can attack out of pure instinct without any ulterior motive or plan.
428:
A warning because I've seen how this plays out every time. Now that there's news everywhere about Fuzheado's move, we'll start seeing those that proposed this wording to dismiss every suggestion to the contrary as trolls or
1236:
a parade. Let's not have perfect be the enemy of good. Current title is extremely problematic and supported by almost nobody, so I am going to make an interim move. Please continue the discussion. Consensus can change.
2076:
The discussion on the Rittenhouse case was entirely on who was the one being attacked, Rittenhouse (self-defense) or the people killed. One being attacked cannot attack, it's called defense, and this argument was cited in
2103:, we cannot prejudge the level of criminality inherent in this incident prior to a conviction. There are lots of people who think Ahmaud Arbery was attacked and murdered, but until a court of law convicts someone of
593:
Incident doesn't assume malice or accident, which is good since at this time motive is unclear. Though with the murder charges, I think "attack" will be best title soon, but I will support this as a temporary title
1825:
rename to "incident" per WWGB. Needlessly vague. Oppose renaming to "crash" as well, as both misleading and vague. That being said, since it was an SUV, I think "vehicle" would be a more accurate description than
1570:
constitute a "mental disease or defect". Until such time a plea or intent to plead is published in a reliable source, speculation on this or any other imaginable defense strategy should be considered utterly
3525:
2238:. Anything, literally anything, from incident to rampage to attack is more approprate than the current title. Shame on Knowledge for even entertaining such a title. Not even close to what a "car crash" is.
1525:
of violent acts. At least an attack is just one violent act (as was this lone incident/crash/thing). And it doesn't suggest the killer was angry, crazy or wild, like other dictionaries say "rampage" does.
258:
Not necessarily. A criminal offense has to be proven "beyond a reasonable doubt." A rampage does not imply conviction. A person could be very reckless and be held civilly liable without being convicted.
2880:, but is not the last stable title which is the creation title of "2021 Waukesha Christmas Parade Attack", or the last title before the move protection, which is "2021 Waukesha Christmas parade car crash"
1897:
all clearly have "attack". From a standpoint of someone who never heard about the event, "incident" looks like a fistfight or a crash against a tree instead of a SUV ramming people and killed 6 of them.
3113:
And with everything else, it's also not even a common term in the variety of English spoken where the event occurred. I have never seen a title so wrong-headed as this one, in my 17 years on Knowledge.
2202:, as that sounds like a crashing that only involved cars (and perhaps some other inanimate objects) rather than one in which an SUV (which is more of a truck than a car) struck unprotected people. āā āā
1688:
But I'm certainly on board with taking a short break from another round of !voting -- this one has gone off the rails a bit. I just wanted to put this data out there into the mix, for consideration.
612:-I believe the current title (2021 Waukesha Christmas parade car rampage) is the best title until it is confirmed through RS a malicious motive (if that happens), which attack would then be optimal.
2122:"Vehicular homicide"? Seems an accurate and neutral description, but also perhaps awkward and I'm not seeing it in RSes (but neither do I see a lot of "rampage" or any "incident" for that matter).
827:
It's the charges that are doing it for me. "Homicide" implies intent - the fact that the local government sees this as an intentional act implies to me that "attack" is a more correct word here. --
754:
per Pilaz's rationale and I support renaming it to a title that contains the words car and attack. Likewise, I'd drop the year as there aren't any similar events in Waukesha so it's superfluous. --
2219:. The defendant deliberately drove his car into the crowd of people, killing six and injuring dozens, per police. A car crash or incident would imply that this was accidental, which it was not.
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1027:
changing the name. In light of the homicide charges, I think "Waukesha Christmas parade attack" is the most appropriate. As others have mentioned, the 2021 is (fortunately) unnecessary. --
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1726:. The term "incident" does not carry sufficient gravity to describe an event denoting grave injuries and deaths of multiple individuals. As of this writing the main title header is "
2152:), so be prepared for a troll onslaught that makes the current inflow look like a trickle. And, you know what, they'd have a certain point. !Vote here to change back to yesterday's
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2255:. The event does not appear to be accidental or incidental. The name doesn't need to deal with motive or blame, but it should be descriptive (not vague). Prefer the following:
2099:
And the discussion here will be whether it was a premeditated/intentional attack on the event, criminally reckless driving, or something else entirely (unlikely?) Just as with
1967:. Suspect was charged with intentional homicide and had used the same modus operandi in a previous case. If he was running from a previous altercation, it is still an attack.
280:
to support a conviction of murder. With the facts we currently know, I don't think it's likely that this case was merely negligent, there seems certain to be some level of
3466:
If they're charged, they're the accused or defendant rather than a suspect. If they're convicted, they're certainly not a suspect. Suspect has a very specific meaning. --
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car was involved in the title. So either "2021 Waukesha Christmas Parade killings", as they were killed, the legal matters of murder will have to be dealt with latter.
3362:
You need to know you're endangering people's safety, know it's wrong, and willfully do it anyway to be found criminally reckless in any act of "great bodily harm".
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2707:
I have created the Terrorist attack accusations heading to talk about the accusations of terrorism. If you wish to delete it talk in the talk page about it first.
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2038:? I just know that the current title is awful, and I hope it doesn't last through the US Thanksgiving holiday, when many editors have other commitments. This
1981:
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2448:". Let's call it what it is. No more PC. We get mocked and ridiculed here for our correctness, and deservedly so. We can do better. This was a massacre...-
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incident because it was not natural disaster. I also suggests "2021" to removed because there was only events that happened in Waukesha Christmas Parade.
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It was factually not a crash. Incident would be more accurate. Killings or massacre would be appropriate but any step in the right direction I support.
2462:
It's not political correctness to be cautious in how we approach a topic and to avoid loaded terms unless they're widely supported by reliable sources.
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means in North America. This ambiguity and lack of clarity further demonstrate how incredibly unsuitable this title is. Really hoping for some kind of
1109:
Support incident, oppose any version of "attack" until such time as there is widespread adoption of such a characterization among top-notch sources. --
1804:. This is not an incident. The attacker deliberately targeted the crowd. He "drove in a "zig-zag pattern" to hit as many people as possible", source:
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I'll add that "incident" would be fine to me if consensus can't be reached on "attack" in a timely manner. Just anything but "car crash", please. -
2404:
makes it sound like an accident, and no reliable sources I've seen are using that term or indicating it was an accident. Also oppose current term
1735:
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I don't support "attack" because of the unproven imputation of specific intent vice criminal recklessness (just as we could not title an article
1126:
car crash is more descriptive but I think we should come up with something else referring to car crash instead something maybe like car accident
1068:
Car crash doesn't come close to describing what happened here. Incident isn't the best way to describe it, but it's a lot better than car crash.
500:. There were also less prominent, but still promising, variations such as "pedestrian killings", which tried to deal with the 'intent' concern.
1283:. (That it was at a parade is arguably not essential enough for the title.) But for now, I mostly breathe a sigh of relief that we don't have
1204:
changing to a title that includes "attack", as the police have since determined that it was intentional and charged the attacker accordingly.
288:, we do not need to rush to judgment, and we can afford to wait for the legal process to play out before deciding how to describe this event.
2730:
repeatedly that there is no evidence of any link to terrorism at this point. Knowledge is not a platform for speculation and rumormongering.
1639:: I was curious what the other Wikipedias are calling this (as translated, arguably imperfectly, by Google Translate). Most include the word
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3516:. Whatever is done needs to be done equally for all. So if WP:NOTE is going to be ignored for one, then it needs to be ignored for all.
1677:
Personally I think "attack" is certainly warranted when a suspect is charged. An attack is merely a "belligerent or antagonistic action" (
551:
3348:
2009 incident involved several people on board dying from the vehicle's impact with a tree, so a "crash" with an object was a key part.)
2839:
Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a
1885:. Incident is downplaying the severity of the event, with 6 died and the suspect been charged with 5 homicide. Similar incidents such as
465:
Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a
2997:
who judged there was consensus to move the page from the car crash title. No admin is going to move it back without consensus to do so.
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1738:. If consensus were to prefer shorter titles that would nevertheless describe the event as an "attack" or as a "rampage", I would also
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788:"incident". It seems clear at this point that this was an attack - it's being treated as such - so it should be called an "attack". --
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1. to set upon or work against forcefully. 2 to assail with unfriendly or bitter words. 3 to begin to affect or to act on injuriously.
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1782:: This was plainly a murderous attack, and neither of those words implies any criminality at all. There are close parallels with the
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1140:"Car accident" is obviously more inappropriate for an event that results in five charges of intentional murder than "car crash" is.
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for recent local news from Madison, Kenosha, Sheboygan and more. Some involve SUVs, some wrong-way driving, most death and police.
2635:
I agree this is helpful. Please be careful to use the most current sources available as this is a fast developing current event.
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704:, IMO "incident" has a more neutral connotation than "car crash," which, as others have noted, seems to water down what happened.
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The article was moved back to "car crash" because there was an improper unilateral and out of process move to "rampage" while an
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recklessness that he did not care if he killed anyone. Perhaps "2021 Waukesha Christmas parade tragedy" would be my final vote.
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Point of information - the page was reverted from "rampage" back to "car crash" shortly after this conversation. See the diff:
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Attack, Tragedy, Massacre, Pedestrian Killings, or anything else. The title "car crash" has no support and should be changed.
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The vast majority of these !votes were before the current name change. That might be significant when determining consensus.
1544:
The suspected quintuple murderer here hasn't even been charged with recklessly endangering safety yet, much less convicted.
3215:
Human bodies not usually considered objects. It seems completely inappropriate where a vehicle is driven into pedestrians.
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for what happened. āCar attackā describes it much betterāreliable sources are using it and I see no reason why the actions
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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are saying before we get too creative. So, today in English-language media we have "vehicle attack" (New York Times,
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these editors didn't even bother reading. The protection might allow these users to catch up with the discussion. --
3412:, redirect to this article. This seems to be standard practice for such people, who are noteworthy for one event. -
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The term usually means a collision between a car and another car or a fixed object. This is supported by US Lexico:
3166:-- I didn't say it was unknown or unintelligible -- but it's not the most natural term in this variety of English.
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Darrell Brooks having been charged should be in the lead. There's no explanation for it having been removed.
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made the right call in moving the page to a title using the word "rampage" at the time the move was made.
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is on the other side of neutrality. Anyway, it's sure more natural than "car rampage", on any continent.
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Dropping the car as well, since on second thought it does seem there is a consensus here to do that too.
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1938:. I would also support "tragedy" which seems uncontroversial in that you cannot deny it is a tragedy.
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This is not a car crash, details are still coming out but it's clear this wasn't a car crash at all.
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until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion.
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What makes it "clear at this point that this was an attack" (an "attack" being an intentional act)?
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after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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There is an article about an incident very similar to this one which may help us judge precedent -
2752:, not a news item. The whole first paragraph is also giving undue weight to a single commentator.
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The word attack does not imply premeditation nor motive. The Oxford Dictionary defines attack as
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1847:, saying we could find a better name for car crash, I think we found a good name in car rampage.
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is an interesting possibility for our title, but then I'm reminded we need to be mindful of what
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1385:. "Incident"? Did someone faint? Did two spectators have an argument? Could it get any vaguer?
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Thanks, I endorse the semi-protection to counter a concerted effort to flood the Talk page. -
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should be a placeholder until a verdict is reached. The current title is beyond preposterous.
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a strong opinion about whether the Yambol article is mistitled, but this one absolutely is.
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Not sure what is the best descriptive but calling this a mere car crash is preposterous.--
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should one emerge, here is a list of how some top news outlets are describing the event.
1680:), and this event reasonably qualifies as such. A strong case could in fact be made that
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I agree with the description of rampage. Seems very accurate at this time. Good choice.
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until a conviction for that crime was secured) but "rampage" neatly solves that problem.
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Say "tragedy" or "horror" then. When you say "rampage", you're basically saying he went
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However this tragedy is remembered, "Christmas parade" will likely be part of the name.
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Wait for facts to come out before jumping to conclusions? Nah, this is the Internet.
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Did you mean to use the word "hearing", "hurting" or "hating" before "white people"?
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2141:. No disputing this was a violent and reckless action. Was it switched to the awful
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I disagree, only because I don't think they would have made the decision lightly. --
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142:. That said, I'm moving it to "rampage" based on Jehochman's cogent argument above.
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Talk:2021_Waukesha_Christmas_parade_car_rampage#Requested_move_22_November_2021_(2)
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title. I'm going to take this to the admin noticeboard if no action is taken soon.
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is certainly common when describing a car accident, as are compound nouns such as
2379:. I completely agree with what you've just said and hope action is taken swiftly.
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title is ripe for all kinds of unwarranted ridicule of Knowledge's supposed bias.
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physical objects. I don't consider an SUV a car, viscerally. Do you consider the
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580:- if you don't support the proposed title, please say what title you do support.
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1730:". That header is preferable to either of the competing titles in the nominated
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Please change it from "rampage" which sounds like a scene from Game of Thrones.
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is that it does not imply any deaths or even any harm. Neither, I suppose, does
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If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the
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There are more alleged crimes than first-degree murder afoot here, my friend.
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I fully agree that "crash" is improper, and support a move back to "rampage."
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It may not be a good article title here, but it's a very common term. Google
2552:: "Wisconsin parade" - "driving his SUV into a Christmas parade in Wisconsin"
2149:. This current dumb title is making the rounds of RW outrage media (example:
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most accurate title would be "2021 Waukesha (Christmas parade) SUV attack".
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And in case you think recklessness implies presumed innocence, think again.
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is awful. First of all, it's not even a typical phrase in American English (
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I don't think that adopting the government's POV in Wikivoice complies with
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to me, presuming someone as a suspect before they're charged or convicted.
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Not all criminal vehicular offenses are an "attack." See, for example, the
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lumps in mass killers. It shouldn't, but it does. Something to consider.
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A rampage is no fantastic HBO drama, simply synonymous with a true crime
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Oppose this section as it is not supported by high quality sources. Per
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I just read a bunch and I know which two words I repeatedly saw. A car
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to indicate that presumption of innocence. The Rittenhouse article had
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An instance of a car colliding with another vehicle or with an object.
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as a general descriptor is not particularly common; the usual term is
2135:, which seemed to be the best option, at least as a stopgap. Rampage:
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Knowledge:Redirects for discussion/Log/2021 November 23#Darrell Brooks
3483:, Brooks has been charged with five counts of first-degree homicide.
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if the terrorist accusations are true, I suggest this name change. --
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a car accident. It's a chiefly British term that means exactly what
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for the same reason this exact same type of redirect was used for
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Terrorist attack accusations and name change to Waukesha Massacre
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we should revert the bold, mid-RM move until the RM can decide.
2600:"Waukesha Christmas parade massacre" (nearest major local paper)
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arguing for this being an accident go ahead and link it please.
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better than car crash which doesn't quite capture the incident.
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intentional or reckless means is invariably a criminal offence.
276:. The prosecutor and jury in that case apparently did not find
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is a subtype of crash, where no intention is suspected. A car
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is a good option. Objectively true without assigning intent.
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a course of violent, riotous, or reckless action or behavior
486:, and additionally consensus is against the current title (
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In Wisconsin, anyway, unsure of regular Bulgarian justice.
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would suggest "killings" but I think "incident" is more
546:ā Suspect now charged with multiple counts of homicide.
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and have no bearing on article content creation, up to
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although per my earlier suggestion above would suggest
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is the common term). It also diminishes what happened.
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suggestion would be to eliminate needless words, for:
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2015 Oklahoma State University homecoming parade crash
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2015 Oklahoma State University homecoming parade crash
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Strongly oppose car crash or incident, support attack
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A discussion is taking place to address the redirect
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The place to discuss it is here, and with the admin
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This article should be titled "2021 Waukesha Parade
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regardless the correct article title name is, but i
2145:because of procedural concerns? If so, please mind
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Car ramming is neither an incident nor a car crash.
3289:That bus hit a group of tourists, not three cars.
1669:), and "Waukesha Christmas Parade incident" (NPR,
2131:I'm still not clear on why this was changed from
1806:https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-59396999
2029:, which implies a magnitude of seriousness that
2558:: "Wisconsin parade" - "Sunday afternoon crash"
181:"Attack" has a clear implication of a specific
3512:, despite meeting the requirements set for in
997:isn't exactly ideal, but it's far better than
716:would not be my first choice. FWIW, I believe
2274:Waukesha Christmas parade mass casualty event
771:moving to incident, because it's more vague.
8:
2021:Then we need a better word or phrasing than
1581:the title. I have nothing further, judges.
1167:high-profile event. Very easily ridiculed.
2868:2021 Waukesha Christmas parade car rampage
2829:The following is a closed discussion of a
1864:. I cannot believe this was moved back to
1728:2021 Waukesha Christmas parade car rampage
1566:that habitual antisocial criminality does
455:The following is a closed discussion of a
3248:I'm a North American, FWIW, and consider
2852:, there's already RM in progress above.
2282:- as defined by the Department of Justice
2276:- as defined by the Department of Justice
917:2021 Waukesha Christmas parade car attack
480:. Consensus is against against moving to
1732:2021 Waukesha Christmas parade car crash
1087:2021 Waukesha SUV ramming of pedestrians
935:should not be described as an attack. ā
538:2021 Waukesha Christmas parade car crash
489:2021 Waukesha Christmas parade car crash
2896:This is a contested technical request (
2660:Of the people who answered the survey,
2427:"Incident" does not do this justice. ā
1736:2021 Waukesha Christmas parade incident
909:2021 Waukesha Christmas parade incident
543:2021 Waukesha Christmas parade incident
483:2021 Waukesha Christmas parade incident
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201:to try to hurt or defeat using violence
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3162:. I'm sure you can find references to
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2280:Waukesha Christmas parade mass killing
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44:Do not edit the contents of this page.
3414:2003:CA:8703:C82C:59DB:7703:1CCC:D693
2253:Strongly Oppose Car Crash or Incident
679:since it excludes the word "car" and
477:2021 Waukesha Christmas parade attack
18:Talk:Waukesha Christmas parade attack
7:
2848:The result of the move request was:
1542:Highly illegal all across Wisconsin.
473:The result of the move request was:
2612:"Waukesha Christmas parade tragedy"
448:Requested move 22 November 2021 (2)
3441:Really? Seems like a violation of
2606:"Waukesha Christmas parade attack"
1684:is more NPOV and not as strong as
1643:, with two interesting additions:
24:
3256:as badly mistitled or any worse?
1443:That said, in Knowledge's world,
270:Santa Monica Farmers Market crash
222:The OED definition you've quoted
3408:I suggest that the perpetrator,
3234:has a more generalized meaning.
3190:A course is a course, of course.
3073:The discussion above is closed.
2946:for reverting the move. Let the
2711:Name change to Waukesha Massacre
2691:The discussion above is closed.
2598:Milwaukee Sentinel Jounral 11/23
1765:. per Pilaz's rationale above.--
1277:2021 Waukesha parade SUV rampage
203:. Merriam-Webster defines it as
97:
29:
2822:Requested move 24 November 2021
1963:move to previous status quo of
629:- This was not a car crash. -
106:. The discussion will occur at
2993:The move was made by an admin
2942:I do not see any consensus at
1336:need to specify which parade.
1:
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3130:"car crash" wisconsin -parade
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2081:at the time. If you can find
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2705:Terrorist attack accusations
1895:London, Ontario truck attack
1868:. What a terrible decision.
1273:2021 Waukesha parade rampage
1023:changing to "incident", but
2570:: "Waukesha parade suspect"
2546:: "Wisconsin Parade Attack"
2534:: "Wisconsin parade attack"
1780:Oppose rampage and incident
159:The problem with ārampageā
90:"Darrell Brooks" listed at
3542:
1887:Charlottesville car attack
2594:"Waukesha parade carnage"
2582:"Waukesha parade tragedy"
2576:"Waukesha parade tragedy"
2564:: "Waukesha parade crash"
2528:: "Waukesha parade crash"
2236:Strongly Oppose Car Crash
1891:2017 London Bridge attack
1784:2017 London Bridge attack
1281:2021 Waukesha SUV rampage
1001:. I do want to note that
498:and/or dropping the "car"
165:2017 London Bridge attack
3404:Redirect: Darrell Brooks
3075:Please do not modify it.
3044:who performed the move.
2836:Please do not modify it.
2693:Please do not modify it.
2623:Please add to this list.
2588:"Waukesha parade attack"
2101:Killing of Ahmaud Arbery
927:title, and feels like a
462:Please do not modify it.
346:dictionary.cambridge.org
92:Redirects for discussion
3429:Iamreallygoodatcheckers
3427:I created the redirect
3084:Special:Diff/1056940376
2873:2021 Waukesha car crash
1489:Iamreallygoodatcheckers
1445:List of rampage killers
685:vehicle-ramming attacks
614:Iamreallygoodatcheckers
596:Iamreallygoodatcheckers
364:www.merriam-webster.com
3154:The standalone phrase
2408:for similar reasons. ā
1305:Murder of George Floyd
866:Ser Amantio di Nicolao
830:Ser Amantio di Nicolao
807:Ser Amantio di Nicolao
791:Ser Amantio di Nicolao
360:"Definition of ATTACK"
274:vehicular manslaughter
3272:2009 Yambol bus crash
3254:2009 Yambol bus crash
3230:this title, the term
2928:queried move request
2648:ScottishFinnishRadish
1420:Waukesha parade crash
1370:ActivelyDisinterested
1279:. Maybe best of all:
523:ProcrastinatingReader
509:ProcrastinatingReader
42:of past discussions.
3335:NorthBySouthBaranof
2950:discussion decide.
2732:NorthBySouthBaranof
2617:To help identify a
2290:Mass casualty event
2110:NorthBySouthBaranof
2062:NorthBySouthBaranof
2005:NorthBySouthBaranof
1464:Support name change
1309:NorthBySouthBaranof
1223:NorthBySouthBaranof
952:Per Checkers above.
933:shown on video here
921:unnecessarily vague
796:Lo dicono a S}igna.
290:NorthBySouthBaranof
187:NorthBySouthBaranof
161:NorthBySouthBaranof
144:NorthBySouthBaranof
1502:Keep it at rampage
1089:is more accurate.
871:Lo dicono a Signa.
835:Lo dicono a Signa.
578:Proposer's comment
562:in this instance.
3518:Picard's Facepalm
3058:
3011:
2964:
2930:Anthony Appleyard
2912:
2902:Anthony Appleyard
2229:
2226:Alternate account
1756:
1720:
1564:knowing full well
1103:
648:
507:
504:non-admin closure
87:
86:
54:
53:
48:current talk page
3533:
3510:Kyle Rittenhouse
3045:
2998:
2951:
2927:
2895:
2875:
2850:Procedural close
2838:
2450:Veryproicelandic
2324:
2223:
1907:
1902:
1748:
1713:
1708:
1412:
1154:But a car crash
1090:
919:. āIncidentā is
868:
862:
832:
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793:
649:
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464:
375:
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286:not an newspaper
101:
68:
56:
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33:
32:
26:
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3079:
3078:
2917:
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2834:
2824:
2805:
2702:
2697:
2696:
2610:USA Today 11/24
2540:: "car-ramming"
2522:
2472:
2418:
2318:
2200:Not "car crash"
2036:vehicle-ramming
1905:
1900:
1711:
1403:
873:
864:
856:
837:
828:
820:
804:
798:
789:
681:less consistent
641:
632:
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574:
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3496:
3495:
3410:Darrell Brooks
3405:
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3398:
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3152:two-car crash.
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2878:BLP discussion
2865:
2846:
2845:
2831:requested move
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2604:Fox News 11/24
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1930:
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1880:
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1742:such titles.Ā ā
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783:
766:
749:
734:
733:
732:
699:
683:with previous
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573:
570:
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457:requested move
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384:
383:Page protected
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241:
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224:to try to hurt
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104:Darrell Brooks
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3377:
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3350:Solipsism 101
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3217:Solipsism 101
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3183:
3179:
3178:
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2750:opinion piece
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2624:
2620:
2619:WP:COMMONNAME
2611:
2608:
2605:
2602:
2599:
2596:
2593:
2592:Reuters 11/23
2590:
2587:
2586:Reuters 11/23
2584:
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2569:
2566:
2563:
2560:
2557:
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2551:
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2536:
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2532:Reuters 11/23
2530:
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2524:
2523:
2519:
2515:
2511:
2507:
2503:
2500:
2498:
2494:
2490:
2486:
2483:If anything,
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2323:
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2321:Crossover1370
2314:
2313:Strong oppose
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2222:
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2213:
2209:
2205:
2201:
2198:
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2184:
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2173:
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2138:
2134:
2130:
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2125:
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1745:Roman Spinner
1741:
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1733:
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1725:
1722:
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1715:
1714:
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1658:
1655:
1654:
1650:
1647:(French) and
1646:
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1638:
1635:
1633:
1629:
1625:
1621:
1618:
1616:
1612:
1608:
1603:
1599:
1596:
1592:
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1584:
1580:
1579:and including
1576:
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1461:
1458:
1454:
1450:
1446:
1442:
1441:
1438:
1434:
1430:
1426:
1425:spree killing
1422:
1421:
1417:
1415:
1411:
1409:
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1401:
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1396:
1392:
1388:
1384:
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1211:
1207:
1206:100.36.132.30
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1084:
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1070:MerelyPumpkin
1067:
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1009:
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988:
985:
982:
980:
976:
972:
971:67.80.108.160
968:
965:
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951:
948:
946:
942:
938:
934:
930:
926:
922:
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836:
831:
824:
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739:50.111.45.222
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723:
719:
714:
713:
711:
707:
703:
700:
698:
694:
690:
686:
682:
678:
674:
671:
669:
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661:
660:Solipsism 101
657:
654:
652:
646:
644:
637:
635:
628:
625:
623:
619:
615:
611:
608:
605:
601:
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588:
586:
583:
579:
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568:
565:
561:
557:
553:
549:
544:
539:
532:
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514:
510:
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484:
479:
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470:
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463:
458:
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452:
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432:
431:WP:CANVASSers
422:
418:
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409:
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405:
401:
397:
396:
395:
394:
391:
382:
365:
361:
355:
352:
347:
343:
337:
334:
330:
314:
310:
306:
305:Solipsism 101
301:
300:
299:
295:
291:
287:
283:
279:
275:
271:
267:
265:
262:
257:
256:
255:
251:
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246:Solipsism 101
242:
238:
234:
230:
225:
221:
220:
219:
215:
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206:
202:
198:
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109:
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93:
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83:
80:
78:
75:
73:
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67:
63:
61:
58:
57:
49:
45:
41:
40:
35:
28:
27:
19:
3505:
3468:Killuminator
3452:
3447:
3407:
3368:InedibleHulk
3321:InedibleHulk
3291:InedibleHulk
3258:InedibleHulk
3231:
3193:InedibleHulk
3185:
3181:
3163:
3160:car accident
3159:
3155:
3151:
3147:
3134:InedibleHulk
3074:
3047:
3046:
3024:BilledMammal
3000:
2999:
2977:BilledMammal
2953:
2952:
2920:BilledMammal
2882:BilledMammal
2866:
2854:No such user
2849:
2847:
2835:
2828:
2806:
2789:InedibleHulk
2766:
2749:
2710:
2709:
2704:
2703:
2692:
2661:
2659:
2644:
2622:
2616:
2580:NY Mag 11/23
2501:
2484:
2480:
2445:
2441:
2424:
2409:
2405:
2401:
2397:
2376:
2320:
2319:
2312:
2289:
2279:
2273:
2252:
2235:
2216:
2199:
2174:was open. -
2153:
2142:
2136:
2132:
2104:
2039:
2035:
2030:
2026:
2022:
1964:
1960:
1956:
1935:
1914:
1882:
1865:
1861:
1844:
1840:
1822:
1801:
1800:
1779:
1762:
1744:
1739:
1723:
1709:
1704:
1685:
1681:
1656:
1648:
1644:
1640:
1636:
1624:InverseZebra
1619:
1597:
1583:InedibleHulk
1578:
1574:unverifiable
1572:
1567:
1558:
1546:InedibleHulk
1528:InedibleHulk
1520:
1501:
1484:
1472:36.77.64.164
1467:
1463:
1449:InedibleHulk
1429:InedibleHulk
1418:
1406:
1405:
1399:
1382:
1364:
1284:
1280:
1276:
1272:
1218:
1201:
1183:
1160:car accident
1159:
1155:
1123:
1092:
1091:
1082:
1065:
1024:
1020:
1002:
998:
994:
991:car accident
990:
986:
983:
966:
949:
912:
904:
887:
785:
768:
756:Killuminator
751:
701:
677:less precise
672:
655:
643:open channel
642:
633:
626:
609:
590:
577:
536:
497:
474:
461:
454:
427:
386:
367:. Retrieved
363:
354:
345:
336:
328:
282:recklessness
277:
182:
137:
117:
112:
96:
65:
43:
37:
3443:WP:BLPCRIME
2841:move review
2809:Jim Michael
2667:DropShot244
2381:Airplanegod
2240:Airplanegod
2221:Destroyeraa
2204:BarrelProof
1969:WP:BLPCRIME
1940:DropShot244
1919:DropShot244
1843:I recently
1809:Gianluigi02
1645:car-ramming
1559:And in case
1522:on a course
1323:DropShot244
1258:Bueller 007
1189:DropShot244
1142:Bueller 007
892:Sideriver84
773:Jim Michael
467:move review
369:24 November
36:This is an
3481:Joseph2302
3250:our bodies
3049:Polyamorph
3002:Polyamorph
2955:Polyamorph
2924:Polyamorph
2550:WaPo 11/24
2520:Discussion
2147:WP:NOTBURO
1651:(Russian).
1607:XavierItzm
1602:WP:NATURAL
1352:XavierItzm
1094:Polyamorph
1047:kewlgrapes
1029:kewlgrapes
1003:car attack
937:Mikehawk10
925:WP:NATURAL
923:, not the
634:FlightTime
560:WP:NATURAL
329:References
3485:Moonraker
3232:car crash
3164:car crash
3156:car crash
3146:The word
3042:Jehochman
2995:Jehochman
2898:permalink
2637:Jehochman
2574:CNN 11/23
2568:NBC 11/24
2562:CBS 11/24
2556:ABC 11/24
2544:NYT 11/23
2538:BBC 11/24
2411:Torchiest
2406:car crash
2365:Jehochman
2346:Wiki-psyc
2257:Wiki-psyc
2143:car crash
2040:car crash
1866:car crash
1788:Moonraker
1754:contribs)
1649:crowd hit
1507:Nil Einne
1338:Jehochman
1287:anymore.
1285:car crash
1248:Jehochman
1238:Jehochman
999:car crash
987:Car crash
929:euphemism
718:Jehochman
556:WP:DEATHS
475:moved to
411:Ditto. --
261:Jehochman
169:Moonraker
82:ArchiveĀ 5
77:ArchiveĀ 4
72:ArchiveĀ 3
66:ArchiveĀ 2
60:ArchiveĀ 1
3236:Moncrief
3182:accident
3168:Moncrief
3116:Moncrief
3088:Fuzheado
2754:Aoi (éć)
2746:WP:RS/PS
2627:Levivich
2625:Thanks,
2526:AP 11/24
2485:incident
2446:Massacre
2429:Muboshgu
2402:incident
2400:because
2332:contribs
2294:Moncrief
2176:Fuzheado
2158:Moncrief
2124:Levivich
2087:Loganmac
2044:Moncrief
2027:shooting
1986:Loganmac
1870:Moncrief
1849:Kaleeb18
1826:"car".--
1712:nableezy
1690:Moncrief
1686:rampage.
1289:Moncrief
1169:Moncrief
1128:Kaleeb18
1055:contribs
1037:contribs
1008:Moncrief
995:Incident
915:move to
907:move to
859:Levivich
849:Levivich
823:Levivich
813:Levivich
722:Aoi (éć)
706:Aoi (éć)
582:Levivich
564:Levivich
552:NBC News
435:Loganmac
400:Fuzheado
342:"attack"
278:mens rea
210:Loganmac
183:mens rea
3514:WP:NOTE
3506:Support
2502:Support
2481:Comment
2377:comment
2154:rampage
2133:rampage
1961:Support
1936:comment
1915:Comment
1901:SunDawn
1862:Comment
1845:opposed
1841:Comment
1828:Tdl1060
1740:support
1657:Ramming
1637:Comment
1485:Comment
1365:Comment
1202:Support
1184:Support
1164:WP:SNOW
1083:Support
1066:Support
1025:Support
984:Support
967:Support
950:Support
913:Support
845:WP:NPOV
702:Support
656:Support
627:Support
591:Support
548:Reuters
39:archive
3448:Joseph
3306:GoPats
3277:GoPats
3186:attack
2683:zzuuzz
2662:no one
2489:180app
2464:clpo13
2442:Oppose
2425:Oppose
2398:Oppose
2105:murder
1965:attack
1957:Oppose
1893:, and
1883:Oppose
1823:Oppose
1802:Oppose
1763:Oppose
1724:Oppose
1705:Oppose
1682:attack
1641:attack
1620:Oppose
1600:- The
1598:Oppose
1468:Oppose
1400:Either
1383:Oppose
1275:, or
1219:Oppose
1124:Oppose
1021:Oppose
905:Oppose
888:Oppose
786:Oppose
769:Oppose
752:Oppose
673:Oppose
610:Oppose
572:Survey
494:WP:BLP
390:zzuuzz
113:Joseph
3148:crash
3101:MONGO
2948:WP:RM
2773:Zyxrq
2715:Zyxrq
2416:edits
2172:WP:RM
2083:WP:RS
2079:WP:RS
2031:crash
2023:crash
1973:WP:RS
1767:ArƩat
1750:(talk
1661:WP:RS
689:Pilaz
16:<
3522:talk
3489:talk
3472:talk
3458:talk
3453:2302
3433:talk
3418:talk
3372:talk
3354:talk
3339:talk
3325:talk
3310:talk
3295:talk
3281:talk
3270:The
3262:talk
3240:talk
3221:talk
3197:talk
3172:talk
3138:talk
3120:talk
3105:talk
3092:Talk
3086:. -
3055:talk
3028:talk
3008:talk
2981:talk
2961:talk
2934:talk
2922:and
2906:talk
2886:talk
2858:talk
2813:talk
2803:Lead
2793:talk
2777:talk
2769:talk
2758:talk
2736:talk
2719:talk
2671:talk
2652:talk
2510:talk
2506:Phil
2493:talk
2469:talk
2454:talk
2433:talk
2385:talk
2350:talk
2328:talk
2298:talk
2261:talk
2244:talk
2208:talk
2180:Talk
2162:talk
2114:talk
2091:talk
2066:talk
2048:talk
2009:talk
1990:talk
1959:and
1944:talk
1923:talk
1906:talk
1874:talk
1853:talk
1832:talk
1813:talk
1792:talk
1771:talk
1694:talk
1628:talk
1611:talk
1587:talk
1550:talk
1532:talk
1511:talk
1493:talk
1476:talk
1453:talk
1433:talk
1391:talk
1387:WWGB
1374:talk
1356:talk
1327:talk
1313:talk
1293:talk
1262:talk
1227:talk
1210:talk
1193:talk
1173:talk
1146:talk
1132:talk
1115:talk
1100:talk
1074:talk
1051:talk
1033:talk
1012:talk
975:talk
958:talk
954:KVWS
941:talk
896:talk
777:talk
760:talk
743:talk
726:talk
710:talk
693:talk
664:talk
618:talk
600:talk
527:talk
513:talk
439:talk
417:talk
404:Talk
371:2021
309:talk
294:talk
250:talk
233:talk
214:talk
191:talk
173:talk
148:talk
123:talk
118:2302
2900:).
1568:not
1111:JBL
413:JBL
229:JBL
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