Talk:Welsh Not/Archive 5 - Knowledge (XXG)

1252:

give it as an opinion, he does not say 'probably', he does not say 'most people think' he states it as a FACT. As editors we must assume that it is factually correct unless we have a good authoritative source that conflicts with it. In this particular instance we are are comparing it with a claim by a journalist on a blog which is not backed up by any analysis. There is no comparison. Given that there are no known authoritative disputes we can use the essential facts contained in this sentence as WP:WIKIVOICE so it's ok to state that "some teachers thought punishing children for speaking Welsh helped them with their English"

3442:, I spend a lot of time on English wikipedia and I don't see any real reason to assume anti-Welsh sentiment here. It's a disagreement on content that has been aggravated by a lack of understanding of national and cultural issues - sadly common but there is far worse going on around the place. I don't see bullying - I see excessive zeal on the part of an individual. Plus one previously uninvolved person who has a track record of troublemaking and arrived here on 2 October with the apparent intention of keeping up that record. 1271:

says the opposite of what you're citing it for - it implies that many teachers recognized that the Welsh Not was not intended to teach English and was therefore counterproductive. We certainly can't turn around and cite it to say something that amounts to "the Welsh Not was always used to try and teach English", which is the opposite of what the source says on every single point. All that aside, the sentence doesn't mention the Welsh Not at all. Is there a quote that mentions it specifically? --

1698:

against Wales ie anti-Welsh and anti-diversity of languages and culture. The avalanche of negative edits show that there was (and is) a concerted attack on the Welsh identity, its people, language and on this article, by users with an anti-Welsh bias. There are too few editors of minoritized languages to counter the tsunamis of full time editors from large languages such as English, and sovereign states. 18th century colonial attitudes and linguistic bullying on Knowledge (XXG) continue today.

161:, are you allowing 24 hours for this? I have said earlier on this page that I am sceptical about Martyn Ford as a source. I would argue that work by academics of language or education would also be relevant. My problem with David Williams wasn't that he was a journalist, but that he had made a programme and then written an article about Welsh in the 21st century and mentioned the Welsh Not once in each, so it wasn't obvious how much research underlay that mention. 31: 3466:

threatening to get others blocked. Considering you have not said anything until now is extremely disappointing and you should look at your own actions in encouraging and enabling this disgraceful excuse of a talk page to develop instead of assuming bad faith of others. There are several others here who you have tagged who are here to cause just to trouble, but once again you only attack me. Please either strike or apologise your remarks.

3036:, I asked you for diffs twice: once @19:35, 13 September 2021 (UTC) related to the removal of citations and once @14:15, 30 September 2021 related to an image being political. I can't see either of those requests satisfied here. All I can see is a stream of bad faith, irrational, and unsubstantiated claims that my edits to improve the accuracy, neutrality, and verifiability of the article are "anti-Welsh"! What is your agenda here? -- 4250:(1) To clarify my clarification. ;) I have added "" to my comment above. (2) So to be clear: People saying that we editors can't decide what the Welsh Not was for are barking up the wrong tree. The question is: have the historians decided what it was for? If editors are witholding agreement without quoting reliable, authoritative sources then that is in violation of wikipedia policy and disruptive editing. 3072:

person whose first language is Welsh. Imagine if English speakers in England had been punished by some imaginary larger and more powerful group for speaking English instead of, say, Esperanto. Would you find an article on that subject equally unworthy of discussion? Strong feelings have been aroused here for reasons that are obvious to polyglots, and that shouldn't be dismissed as if it just didn't matter.

1028:, if that's the answer, please interpret it wrt to Ford's book - is it an RS or not? We know that whichever way you call it, others will disagree - and that is because it is subjective and dependent each of our personal opinions (personal bias?). At least by taking it to RSN, we potentially get uninvolved views and could get a declared consensus to cite in support of future removal or use. -- 1418:"eradication of Welsh were not official policy" nor an unofficial one. Some people thought that it would be better off dying but Welsh parents who paid for their children to go to school certainly didn't want or intend that. There was no eradication of welsh as the result of the teaching of english. welsh speaking school children spoke welsh outside school, at their home, at chaple etc. 243:"your alternatives are too simplistic" If he's done original research then it's a history book we can use as a source. If he's just giving his opinion of what historians say then we should use those historians directly. I haven't got a copy so I don't know. We haven't got many sources as it is so we could use another source. Jones & Davies hardly mention the Welsh Not. 1134:

they are history experts and add them in as sources of history. If they say "the Welsh Not was a bad thing" it's much less damaging to the article than them saying "the Welsh Not existed between 1456 and 1920" which is an historical matter best left to historians. So feelings not facts. and preferably not at all

4673:

Regarding the lack of comprehensive studies: Martin Johnes told us on this page. Also if you had read the history you will notice how vague the historians are on this topic. None of them has told us when it was most popular or can tell us the extent of usage or when it stopped being used. As such the

3730:

I have to take the opposite view. The topic of the article is an object, not some indefinable system. Yes, the form of the object could vary, but essentially it's the stick we are talking about, with the use of it being a subsidiary topic. Any overriding "system" is absent, as we know that the nature

4808:

6) The edit changed "what we would now call total immersion" to "a form of total immersion", which I think is an improvement, as we wouldn't call techniques like getting children to read the Bible in a language they couldn't understand "total immersion" today. Alternative terms like folly and idiocy

3761:

e.g. 'The subjugation of the welsh language' in general is 2-steps removed from 'The item' (but only one from 'the system') the 'Brittany' example is not a parallel because it was a system of punishment not involving any particular item. I think it does follow that 'the purpose' of the Welsh Not by

3707:

I'd be happy with 'The Welsh Not was a form of punishment' if it's less ponderous. The point being it would be a major change, changing the the subject of the article from 'the stick' to 'the use of the stick'. I should have probably discussed it here before making the change the first time! I do

958:

The problem is that some people here don't follow Knowledge (XXG)'s rules. The rules require us to accurately summarise the opinons of relevant experts in the field. In this case historians, specifically Welsh historians because they are the only ones writing on this subject. People don't want that.

4141:

And I continue to believe that the blocked users are not socks, they are all real people. Some of them have been co-editors of mine on the Welsh Knowledge (XXG) for many years, editing a huge range of articles; others are relative newcomers. Some are male, some are female. None of them are frequent

3632:

as a 'system of punishment' rather than the actual 'token' itself (which is, as per the lead, not actually a specific thing at all, but some sort of token of some shape, size and composition used as a small part of the system of punishment as a whole). As such I think the opening should be changed

3214:

We are in danger of straying from the topic, however. I feel that this article should be pared down a bit/ a lot and should not become an article about how to teach English to Welsh people. I don't think it's correct to say that the Welsh Not was used for helping them with their English, and in any

3017:

please retract the accusation that I removed content because it was 'embarrassing to English users' my edit summary details exactly and entirely why I made the edit that I did, referencing Knowledge (XXG) policy. Please let's not spend time dissecting why edits may or may not have been made in the

1377:

You seem to be implying that some schools used the Welsh Not and also didn't have the goal of speaking english? "the goals of many teachers was to teach English," out of 1600 odd schools for the labouring classes surveyed in the 1847 report 80% were english medium and 99.8% taught english. there is

1133:

Now that's a good question. My opinion: Other history articles don't have 'views's or politics on them, they just tell the reader about the topic. If we have views we will just end up arguing about who to include or not. Personally I'm close to giving up careing about it so long as we don't pretend

595:

I tend to agree that this is not a reliable source. It's true that Amberley is a reputable publisher, but that doesn't mean that every book it publishes is to a high standard. In fact, they are very much a publisher of "popular" content, and I know people who have written for them who have no claim

4478:

to tell the readers that there was some sort of 'language planning' during that time period. That there was a plan for teaching English by the state is explicitly denied by historians. The claim comes from a book on linguistics. The author is not an historian. The author also seems to be under the

3223:

it was thought necessary to do that and whether a monolingual education is desirable. The truth is probably that in some cases the teachers couldn't speak Welsh themselves and didn't approve of children potentially sharing a private language. Although the use of the Welsh knot died out in the last

3052:

Ahem, if our Welsh User feels they have a legitimate case then why not go through official channels on WP? What purpose does this serve here? PS we do not use emotional language to describe historical events on an encyclopaedia… I expect that from some of my history textbooks, but not here. I want

1251:

Just to be really clear regarding point (2). Take the sentence "Moreover, many teachers recognised that punishing children for speaking Welsh did not actually work in helping them with their English". This sentence is in a history book by a well know history professor of some standing. He does not

3071:

does not see the content of this article as controversial. However, there are no "official channels" where a lack of understanding of minority languages can be challenged. Reading about the mere existence of the "Welsh Not", even if it had occurred only in one school, would be enough to upset any

1270:

was to teach English, they recognized that punishment (in the form of the Welsh Not) did not serve that goal. (Also note "many", not "all"; again, his point is that the Welsh Not was used only by some teachers and was not official policy.) In other words, to the extent that it says anything, it

1697:

column means that the edit was positive towards Wales (there is ONE!), pro-Welsh-language or described the Welsh Not (WN) as per reliable sources as a marker for physically punished children. Whether or not the amended edit, by the user, was correct or not is irrelevant: their edit was negative,

3316:

Do those books use the regional name without referring to what appears to be the common name 'Welsh Not'? Are you putting them there so they get indexed? I just think it reads horribly, as in forcing the readers to read that long list before they actually get to the information they came for.

4646:

I moved the facts provided by the 'usage' section into the 'Overview' section. "There have been no comprehensive studies to determine how many schools used the Welsh Not or when it was used" adds no information to the article at all and was unsourced (who says there have been no studies? Who

864:

ie "he was the only one to have looked at them". However the salient point "At the press conference both Trevor-Roper and Weinberg expressed their doubts at the authenticity, and stated that German experts needed to examine the diaries to confirm whether the works were genuine." So consensus?

441:

that this guideline requires. They print books and e-books across many subject areas of such as transport, industry, general history, sport, military and niche specialist interests and are not a authoritative, reputable source. They have no significant coverage in reliable sources, especially

3647:

and is consistent with the article exploring the policy of punishing students for speaking Welsh within schools more broadly than with a specific type of token applied in a specific way. and consistent with the body of the article talking about the background to Welsh language policy. The

3465:

Wind it in Deb, you just undermined any authority you have by making making a thinly veiled PA against me, with ZERO evidence. Perhaps you should block yourself? It is completely unacceptable for any of the users you tagged above to go around claiming anti Welsh this that and the other and

3224:

century (as far as I know), it's well-attested that 20th-century children were sometimes discouraged from speaking Welsh at home, as well as at school, in order to make it easier to teach them through the medium of English. But we don't want to start talking about that topic here either.

667:

candidate, "who distributed a leaflet condemning diversity and the notion of a multicultural society" in 2014? We really want to quite from someone who printed leaflets saying: "Islamic terror. Abuse of our children. The consequence of multiculturalism."?? Or perhaps this doesn't matter.

3946:" If you haven't been reading sources like that then you don't have an opinion. I am very happy to be challenged on my interpretation of the sources by people who have actually taken the time to read them. I can be as wrong as anyone. I would be delighted to be corrected, please do so. 4647:

cares!). "The 1847 Inquiry into Schools in Wales reported on only one school using it" is misleading, One school is mentioned by name, nothing in the source says 'only one school' applied it. The rest was basically a literature review of the sources that state when it was in use.

3487:, from whose talk page you were previously banned. There are plenty of other articles where you could be contributing usefully. As a result of the above tirade, I have ample reason to block you from this talk page too, and I will if there's one more personal attack from you. 1329:

page 102 on the possibility of having welsh as a seperate subject in school. "The main reason given for opposition was the desire of parents to see their children learn english and the teachers' feeling that the best way to achieve this was to discourage the use of

4268:, yes, for stuff that is not an incontrovertible fact, I think editors should strive to present a duly weighted balance of mainstream opinions. In discussions to establish a consensus of what that balance is, "withholding agreement" has no bearing as, per 4137:"I won't argue with the statement that Llywelyn2000 may have behaved unwisely, and indeed he should have declared his connection with the other users as he'd been told to do. Nor am I suggesting that his actions in failing to do so should go uncensored." 2382:

The chapter contained text confirming the use of the WN. Positive contribution. Includes "“The school master in my parish, for instance, amongst the common Welsh people has a little toy on a little bit of wood, and on the wood is written “Welsh not”."

4229:, we need to be clear on the difference between a fact and an opinion. Facts need a reliable source, sure. But opinions need more than that - they need to be reliably sourced and attributed as to whose opinion they are, and they also need to be 1886:

of the preceding information which included 'The pupil in possession at the end of the day was subjected to corporal punishment..' This a favourite trick by the editor: deleting a reference, then adding 'citation needed, then deleting the text.

4558:

I have just removed the blue books section, and was about to remove the purpose section but I see you are editing. So will wait to see your changes. So agree, blue books & purpose sections. Background section sort of agree, anyway be BOLD!

4304:

I found a certain amount of duplication between the "The Welsh Not" and "Purpose" sections, so I've combined these and renamed the "Background" section as "Historical context". I believe this makes the article more succinct and readable.

4804:

2) I agree that the source paragraph is debatable (perhaps Welsh children means some Welsh children rather than all Welsh children) and so is Deb's use of it (describing the Not as a "form of language planning" makes it sound like state

753:

What I meant by the statement is that so long as the person in question is "authoritative, reputable source" who agrees with the consensus of authoritative, reputable sources on the topic then we should present the information in

464:

spelt out, Ford wrote the book in question with only a BA in history, therefore can not be called a reputable historian in any way! He is not notable, does not have an article on Knowledge (XXG), and Ford's other books include:

1198:

he Welsh Not certainly existed but how widespread it was is uncertain. What is certain is that neither the Welsh Not nor eradicating Welsh from schools were ever official state policies but rather something down to individual

92:

The community decided to delete information by Journalist David Williams writing on the IWA website. We have two quotes from Martyn Ford who is not a renowned or notable historian. I will delete these if there's no objection.

1067:

My view of him is based on my understanding (which may be faulty) that he has not become the 'go to' subject matter expert because he has done extensive research into this particular topic and is widely quoted in historical

352:, that "reliable sources are not required to be neutral, unbiased, or objective" and "sometimes non-neutral sources are the best possible sources for supporting information about the different viewpoints held on a subject". 403:

Publishers commission provocative quasi-factual stuff in order to sell their books not for them to be taken as academic thesis or godspell! Reading this Talk page makes me wonder am I on Knowledge (XXG) or MakeItUp-Pedia.

3339:"Be wary of cluttering the first sentence with a long parenthesis containing alternative spellings, pronunciations, etc., which can make the sentence difficult to actually read; this information can be placed elsewhere." 4142:

contributors to the English Knowledge (XXG), and some will have been unfamiliar with the guidelines. At the time the accusation was made, I was completely unaware that they regularly carried out informal editathons at

3418:, please stop with the personal accusations now. You've made your point and you've made some real improvements to the article. Let's continue with that instead of trying to single out those you perceive as evildoers. 561:

Not that that matters but it's an M.A. not a B.A. in history. There is however more than one Martyn Ford, the cartoon guy is a different Martyn Ford. I support the removal of bad sources, but not selectively to push

2248:"Susan Elan Jones, Member of Parliament for Clwyd South, said in her maiden speech in 2010 that punishment for speaking Welsh persisted in some schools in her constituency until "as recently as the 1930s and 1940s". 4767:

In Wales during the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries (following the Education act of 1870), Welsh children were not only required to learn English in school, but were prohibited from speaking Welsh at

1203:

Imagined or otherwise, the Welsh Not has remained a powerful symbol of the oppression of Welsh culture and it continues to feature prominently in identity displays at St Fagan’s, now known as the National History

223:

Source reliability falls on a spectrum: No source is 'always reliable' or 'always unreliable' for everything. However, some sources provide stronger or weaker support for a given statement. Editors must use their

2063:

Distortion / censorship of historic fact that the primary use was 1. punish children 2. to stop children from speaking Welsh and 3. to enforce English upon the pupils. A very biased way of interpreting the use!

749:

The full quote is: "If he is an authoritative, reputable source then we can just take what he says as gospel.". An "authoritative, reputable source" is absolutely not the same as a "someone has credentials as a

1053:

He is clearly not the best, not the most reputable, nor the most authoritative source available on the topic. You wouldn't compare him to Martin Johnes or Gareth Elwyn Jones and think "I'll take his word over

4398:

Because, whilst it was a primary function, it wasn't the only one, nor have you provided any citation that says it was. The basics of a primary school education were the three Rs, just as in the rest of the

1206:

This is vital context and we cannot cite him without including it. Finally, it is completely inappropriate to put this in the "Device and method" section, when Johnes is talking about how it is perceived.

4741:

2) A book on linguistics can be a useful source for linguistic history. I wasn't commenting on the quote from Language Planning, as that was added earlier and then moved in the 19:51 11 October 2021 edit.

4402:"Language planning" is planning how people will learn and use a language or languages, something governments and education authorities did and still do and which was referenced in the source you removed. 1593:

I don't have the book, but at the moment I can see the text about the Welsh Not via Google books, but not the page numbers. Typing out whole paragraphs would be against Knowledge (XXG) copyright policy.

3053:

neutral and clearly laid out wording. People actually *read* Knowledge (XXG) for pleasure or to learn a few facts here and there… ) not that I have any interest in Wales, being a dastardly Englishman.)

904:

None of this makes any difference whatsoever to the point I was making. My patience is now wearing thin. Can we please focus on the matter in hand, i.e. whether this is a reliable source or not?

2414:

Attempt at using hardly used 'Inquiry into the State of Education...' rather than the accepted name 'The Treachery of the Blue books. Censorship of historic facts. The truth hurts even in 2021.

3689:

I thought the phrase "system of punishment" was a bit ponderous and it would be as quick to actually describe the system. Also I think it's important to include in the summary what it was for.

1201:

This is not the same as saying it didn't happen; the current text inappropriately misuses that quote by cutting it in half and using only the first part. Similarly, further down, he says that

686:, do you think we should base our choice of sources on the political history of their authors? If we eliminated all authors that had belonged to any of the other political parties nested under 3665:

I have changed this once but the change was lost within other edits, I think it should be agreed by consensus because it does make quite a difference to what is 'relevant' for this article.

2548:"Ultimately, one is forced to conclude that the ‘Welsh Not’ has served as a useful means of propaganda for a mixed bag of anti-imperialists, left-wing historians, and misguided nationalists." 380:

I would say his book has been published by a reputable publisher, so it can be used as a source, however he is not a university historian, so better sources may be available in some cases.

3967:, the only people I pinged in my initial sockpuppet post were the ones I had quoted. I wanted to submit as neutral a nomination as possible and obviously didn't know what it would turn up. 4744:

6) I am not sure exactly which changes this refers to, but I regard interpretations of fragmentary evidence by historians as opinions, although they may be the best opinions available.

1371:

I disagree with your analysis of this sentence: "Moreover, many teachers recognised that punishing children for speaking Welsh did not actually work in helping them with their English".

4195:

To clarify. Any opinion as to historical fact which is not based on reliable sources is worthless because it fails to follow Knowledge (XXG) policy. I have provided a quick breakdown

2687:"however Professor of History at Swansea University Martin Johnes says that the purpose of the Welsh Not was to teach English...and there was no desire to kill off the Welsh language." 3165:

A teacher helping children to learn a language is called teaching. We may not like the idea of punishment to inforce a total language immersion teaching method but that's what it was.

1242:

Possibly the phrase came out of this conversation. The "argues" part wasn't me I don't think. Professor Martin Johnes has already corrected my edit. :) and didn't object to that part.

3483:

It's interesting that you believe you recognise yourself from the description. I recommend you take a long hard look at your behaviour, stop the personal attacks and stop stalking

959:

They are afraid of what they will find. I've been trying to eject whole categories of crap that doesn't follow the rules and quite frankly it's been a pain in the bottom. Until we

786:

I understand where you are coming from, but no one was more of an authoritative, reputable source than Trevor-Roper. He wasn't going against consensus - but he still got it wrong.

4482:

6) You claiming that there is no consensus is worthless unless you can back it up with evidence. Garath Elwyn Jones, Dr W. Gareth Evans & Martin Johnes all disagree with you.

451:

700,000 Welsh speakers!' Are they taking the piss? In no way should this publisher (which specialises in stuff on tanks and lorries) be counted as reputable. I'm gobsmacked that

4523:

I think the whole background section could be removed. it is background to language policy in wales and at least 3-times removed from our little wooden token. It belongs in

355:

I have skimmed through the book, and noted that the bases for his arguments were well referenced - the book has more than 300 references in its footnotes section at the back.

2487:"Ford concludes that... the ‘Welsh Not’ has served as a useful means of propaganda for a mixed bag of anti-imperialists, left-wing historians, and misguided nationalists. " 4117:

strongly supported - and sought to excuse the behaviour - of the sockpuppet/meatpuppet editors at the sockpuppet investigation, I don't think she need be asked to recuse.

687: 1374:

So bit of background: All schools were teaching english. the 'sole object' of setting up the day schools in Wales was to teach english. for refs see the Blue books page.

4039:

Indef? Well I guess I'm going to be waiting a while for those comments above to be retracted then; can the whole '..list of negative edits..' section be removed within

1305:

I absolutly agree that Martin Johnes does not explicitly state that the purpose of the Welsh Not was to teach English. The claim that he did is an artifact of previous

4135:

or anyone else is free to request). I sought to resolve the situation and to explain the behaviour of the meatpuppets, not to excuse it. I quote from my own comments:

718:

There's a difficulty here in that, if we treat him as a reliable source, we can't say anything like "Anti-Muslim politician Martyn Ford says..." because that would be

498:, I said Ford's "book has been published by a reputable publisher" and "better sources may be available". I don't support a blanket ban on non-historians as sources. 266:

NO! If nothing of substance is found regarding his bona fide, then I'll delete his citations! I'll give this another 24 hours just in case someone can. I've failed.

3762:

the 'item' definition, is 'To mark a child as having spoken welsh when it was forbidden'. The purpose of the system is to dissuade the child from speaking Welsh.

3174:

In this example , it is also notable that it was only for older children, which again illustrates the growing realisation of the need to use Welsh to teach English

1920:

The deleted opening paragraph was 'The effect of The Not was to stigmatise the use of the Welsh language among children..' The user was warned to stop edit waring

1188:; it simply isn't there. Since this is a new addition it shouldn't be restored until a specific, unambiguous quote can be found. Furthermore, while he says that 3268:

No one has used those names in years, I think we should spare the readers from having to read them all in the summary. They are hardly the meat of the article.

4146:'s home; this is not surprising, since he lives around 200 miles from me. They are all Welsh speakers who felt strongly about the topic, but they went too far. 196:

If he isn't an authoritative, reputable source then what he says is worthless. However if he has given his sources then we can potentially use those ourselves.

4330:

That new source is unacceptable. More history being quoted from non historians. We've been through this with Llyweyln2000. This goes against wikipedia policy.

1686:

asked on 2 October 2021: 'I would really appreciate it if you could point out some 'anti-Welsh' edits.' DeFacto also asked for diffs. Well here they are.

860:

another historian Gerhard Weinberg also looked at the documents ("partly persuaded by Trevor-Roper's endorsement"). So the second part of my statement was

486: 413: 275: 102: 2328:

Edit note says: "remove effects section as discussed in talk" Censorship of historic facts. The truth hurts even in 2021. {There was no Talk on deletion.

704:

I wonder. Of course it was all so long ago, he's probably a reformed character by now, eh? And UKIP are just like all the others anyway, aren't they (?)

2924:"Church of England at the time manipulated their congregations by planting unsuited people to propagate anti-Welsh rhetoric towards their congregation " 502:

seems to be a mainstream publisher whose books can be considered for use as Knowledge (XXG) sources. I could be wrong. Do you have evidence that it is

837:

Both of the above statements are incorrect (the second one originates from an essay, not a guideline or policy), and both are irrelevant to my point.

4274:

Consensus is ascertained by the quality of the arguments given on the various sides of an issue, as viewed through the lens of Knowledge (XXG) policy

3970:

Deb, I welcome your contributions to the article. It is easier to achieve NPOV if editors bring a variety of POVs and are prepared to work together.

2633:"Furthermore, Johnes writes that the religious turmoil at the time persuaded the state to support, rather than try to extinguish, the Welsh language" 1192:

the Welsh Not and the eradication of Welsh were not official policy, they were left to individual teachers (a more accessible version of the text is

4233:

balanced with alternative opinions. IMHO, the difficult bit is judging the weights of alternative opinions so as to present the correct balance. --

2660:"The child left with the 'Not' at the end of the day was liable to some form of penalty. What that penalty was isn't clear as it varies by account." 4381:

It's far better in terms of readability. I removed the duplication, put the sections into a more logical order and improved the paragraph headers.

3687:

Update introduction: Shorter, snappier and more impactful, less names that no one has ever heard of, also removed Jesus comparison with stigmatise

2717:"The author of this paper believes that children were punished for speaking Welsh by the state, this is clearly contridicted by Welsh historians" 4771: 1112:, do you think it is only a reliable source for his views then, and not for assertions of fact? The follow-up question might be: are his views 628: 469:('It all starts when Professor Eisenstone, scientist and inventor, creates a box that's supposed to turn whatever you imagine into reality'), 4717:'s edit because it goes against wikipedia policies regarding sourcing, false balance and voice. Did you see the objections I made above to 3848:

I get the intention, and am somewhat sympathetic, but I agree that the article is about the Not itself, not the system/practise around it.

2847:

Censorship of an illustration of the WN reality / cruelty. Reason given: "don't use fabricated images.." 2nd deletion: "ghastly picture".

528:

I know what you said. I want to know why you say that (yet, not really sure yourself). The onus is on you to prove and verify that as per

455:

says otherwise. This book is not a peer-reviewed publication, and I've yet to find any reviews by reputable historians of the book itself.

1184:

edit does not reflect the source. Nowhere that I can see on pages 100 or 102 does Johnes say anything remotely resembling the idea that

190:

or someone else needs to explain why Martyn Ford isn't an authoritative, reputable source. I'm guessing it would be fairly simple to do.

4276:- thus an objection or non-agreement, without a reasoned supporting rationale, is worthless and, IMHO, should be simply disregarded. -- 3068: 3054: 3936:

You should recuse yourself from editing this article given the issues raised over the last week or so and the positions you have taken.

2595:, the term British colonial rule is non-NPOV, even though it's cited in the body! Attempts to clear blame from Westminster Government. 1306: 1266:

The problem is that that doesn't say that the purpose of the Welsh Not was to teach children English. If anything, it says that while

604:

believes that if someone has credentials as a historian, "we can just take what he says as gospel", but that is never true. Remember

4172:

Good and unbiased research, based upon the best and most reputable authoritative sources available, helps prevent NPOV disagreements

627:, the quotation that John Jones provided isn't from the book, it's from the publisher's blurb publicising the book on their website 1081:

If he has merely given his view on the research of others then there are better historians to ask for their views on that research.

1764:"...was an item used in Welsh schools in the 18th, 19th and 20th centuries to stigmatise and punish through flogging children..." 1151:

Also. Since my latest edit the Purpose section is redundant and should be deleted. You don't need to keep anything in it. Thanks.

2564:

Anti-Welsh rhetoric by an fiction writer with (at the time) a BA in history. Edit note said: "added another interesting titbit".

1820:

attempts to delete facts ' Ch of E's attempt to eradicate the Welsh language'. 1 August; Edit note: "removing conspiracy theory"

4479:

impression that the 1870 act required Welsh children to learn English and all schools in Wales banned Welsh. This is also wrong.

3449:: Any dispute that is not about content should be taken to ANI. The next editor who makes a personal attack can expect a block. 2143:"The Education Act of 1870 called for education to be taught through the medium of English, and not through the medium of Welsh. 111:

If he's not a reputable authoritative source on the subject matter then he shouldn't be used as a source of history. Who is he?

2135:

The BBC website includes the following: 'The pupil in possession at the end of the day was subjected to corporal punishment..'

4057:

I see no value in retaining the table of supposed negative edits. If it can't be deleted, perhaps it could be archived early?

3676: 2878:

Deleted whole parag. on a similar device. Censorship of historic facts, which suggests a concerted plan by the British state.

3930:(I only discovered it by accident when it was all over). Odd that no one had informed me given that I was one of the victims. 1791:"the Church has been in many cases made the instrument of the futile and absurd attempt to eradicate the Welsh language..." 1737:"the Church has been in many cases made the instrument of the futile and absurd attempt to eradicate the Welsh language..." 3794:

that the article is about an object and that we can't agree on its objective. Brittany appears to be a parallel because the

3757:

Let's see how this goes for a little while, but if this is the consensus then hopefully makes it a little clearer what is

2814:

Censorship of an illustration of the WN reality / cruelty. Reasons given: "We already have a nice picture. thanks anyway."

631:. It's a subjective opinion, and depends on what you mean by a "living language", or understand it to mean, I suppose. -- 2301:

Number of speakers declined, partly as an effect of the WN. Censorship of historic facts and the effect of the Welsh Not

295: 218: 4758:

You will be glad to hear my gob is holding up. Even though it has been smacked several times over the past few weeks ;)

3927: 3506: 3471: 768:

These are the Knowledge (XXG) policies we must follow. I am trying to follow them. Please let me know if I am in error.

2392: 1193: 3656: 3159:

The Welsh Not was only used as an instrument of punishment for speaking Welsh. It wasn't used for any other purpose.

2912:

Quotes on the whole paint a very dark picture of the WN. Censorship of historic facts, all with reliable citations.

2460:"John Winterson Richards wrote.. the ‘Welsh Not’ did not come from oppressors in London but from educators in Wales" 1883: 4443:

I disagree with that wholesale revert. I agree with all the changes you made, for the sound reasons given. Thanks.

38: 3652: 2510:

Also added: 'Ford discusses the paucity of evidence that the 'Not' existed' which is an extremely minority view!

1288:

First of all is the article now as you intended? or did you mean to leave the Martin Johnes quote at the bottom?

722:. I think it would be much less problematic to leave out this source but of course there needs to be consensus. 503: 448:

has all but disappeared as a living language outside of a handful of communities in the west and north of Wales.

434: 341: 340:

I agree that it's not a vanity, or self-published book, and doesn't fall foul of any of the no-nos mentioned in

4448: 4023: 3989: 3821: 3662:"The use of the 'Welsh Not' or 'Welsh Stick' or 'Welsh Lead' was established as a form of punishment..." etc. 3601: 3562: 3527: 3129:

that the parents and teachers desired was itself ineffectual. Some kind of bilingual approach was essential..."

3013:

Actually, not cool. A list accusing other editors of having edited in a biased manner is not in the spirit of

709: 673: 72: 67: 59: 4167: 990: 649:

Okay - but the blurb is often provided by the author and always approved by him/her. So I remain unconvinced.

4395:. If the source says it was, you should add a quote to that effect into the ref, but that's still an opinion. 3502: 3480: 3467: 1767:"...was an item used in Welsh schools in the 18th, 19th and 20th centuries to stigmatise and punish children" 1679:

As requested: list of negative edits showing a bias against Wales, the Welsh language and playing down the WN

1003:. Try the library for reputable books and journal articles, and look online for the most reliable resources." 315:

He's an ex UKIP Councillor as has been discussed before and seems to get some bad book reviews on that basis.

3058: 4075:, I guess all their contributions to this page can be struck through, including those to the image RfC. -- 2771:"There is no documented use of it before the 1790s and little evidence of use after the end of the 1840s. " 4528: 3271:

The history books I've read just call it the Welsh Not (or Note in Davies' book - which is an exception).

2984: 286:"Martyn Ford formerly served as a councillor on a local authority in Swansea. He has recently acquired an 271: 98: 4761:

2) It would be a useful resource for linguistic history if it were written by a historian rather than a

3118:

was almost completely counter productive... in such a context, Johnson regarded the use of the infamous

600:

provided shows without doubt that the book is at best outdated and is not a source that should be used.

3758: 875: 816: 4792: 4726: 4697: 4680: 4589: 4564: 4490: 4366: 4255: 4216: 3954: 3944:

Good and unbiased research, based upon the best and most reputable authoritative sources available...

3884: 3694: 3396: 3322: 3281: 3202: 3002: 1652: 1553: 1467: 1388: 1359: 1342: 1314: 1293: 1257: 1230: 1156: 1139: 1099: 1012: 972: 895: 828: 777: 575: 541: 482: 426: 327: 248: 205: 116: 4499:

Incorrect on both counts. I've read numerous books on Welsh history. I've even written four myself.

4170:

is talking about the role of good research in helping to achieve neutrality, and the full quote is "

3522:: fast approaching removal from my watchlist. Might come back next year if things have calmed down. 3183:

So they stopped using the Welsh Not for younger children because it wasn't working to teach English.

1507:

so that statement shouldn't be sourced to him. Can we take that out until a better source is found?

4444: 4019: 3985: 3909: 3817: 3597: 3573: 3558: 3523: 1276: 1212: 808:

There was no consensus about the Hitler diaries, he was the only one to have looked at them. So no

705: 683: 669: 499: 303: 134: 4348:

primary function of day schools in Wales was the teaching of English" to "During the 19th century

4277: 4269: 4247: 4234: 4192: 4179: 4094: 4076: 3913: 3835: 3554: 3388: 3363: 3313: 3296: 3248: 3037: 2774: 2663: 2636: 2609: 2592: 2578: 2551: 2524: 2490: 2463: 2432: 2288: 2254: 2227: 2114: 2090: 2050: 2019: 1148: 1130: 1117: 1050: 1029: 955: 941: 691: 632: 529: 438: 359: 349: 130: 4814: 4749: 4633: 4537:"The 1847 'Blue Book' reports" section would also be more relevant in one of the above articles. 4030: 4004: 3975: 3803: 3625:

I think the Welsh Not was both a system of punishment and a specific item used in that system.

3581: 3543: 3345: 1599: 1512: 761:

If he is an "authoritative, reputable source" and disagrees with the consensus then it cannot be

511: 385: 231: 166: 4782: 4475: 3216: 3014: 2657:"The child left with it at the end of the day was liable to some form of corporal punishment..." 809: 762: 755: 87: 4358:

You've downgraded historical consensus to an opinion. This goes against Knowledge (XXG) policy.

3536: 2951:"that the Welsh Not nonetheless remains "a powerful symbol of the oppression of Welsh culture." 4281: 4238: 4183: 4143: 4098: 4080: 3839: 3435: 3423: 3367: 3300: 3252: 3162:

Therefore it's correct to say that the Welsh Not was used for helping them with their English.

3041: 3033: 2994: 2980: 2507: 1978:

This statement is confirmed in all reliable sources; it's too embarrassing for English users.

1121: 1033: 945: 695: 636: 605: 363: 267: 187: 158: 142: 108: 94: 4692:

However I have just seen the result of your edit and it's an accurate summary. So I approve.

4072: 4040: 3295:, I think they are regional names for similar devices, and various books do mention them. -- 3114:; in the context of teacher ignorance of the English language on this scale...a method which 2591:

Deletes this subheaing with Edit note: ' inaccurate, irrelevant, undue and non-NPOV'. To the

1333:

P100 "Excluding Welsh from the classroom...parents...wanted their children to learn English".

1326:

I think the weight of the chapter is to state that it was used to teach english. For example

4652: 4542: 4122: 4062: 4048: 3853: 3767: 3713: 3672: 3023: 2080: 2044: 1986:"the long term stigma attached to the use of the language, clearly shows it had an effect." 936:

Rather that wasting more days and weeks going round in circles here, how about taking it to

409: 310:" They seem like a legitimate publisher (not a vanity publisher) specialising in UK history. 4230: 1783:

Deleted the word 'flogging' even though it had a citation; word to harsh for English ears?

1113: 937: 719: 563: 4801: 4788: 4735: 4722: 4693: 4676: 4612: 4585: 4560: 4486: 4362: 4265: 4251: 4226: 4212: 4163: 4132: 3964: 3950: 3880: 3690: 3484: 3439: 3431: 3415: 3392: 3355: 3318: 3292: 3277: 3198: 2998: 2930: 2892: 2801: 2747: 2720: 2690: 2401: 2369: 2342: 2315: 2176: 2149: 2128: 2100:

Same as above, in another part of the article. Distortion / censorship of historic facts.

1932:

Within the Walls of Westminster, the removal of the language was further widely discussed,

1901: 1861: 1834: 1797: 1770: 1743: 1648: 1590: 1549: 1496: 1463: 1384: 1355: 1338: 1310: 1289: 1253: 1226: 1152: 1135: 1109: 1095: 1025: 1008: 968: 891: 824: 773: 601: 597: 571: 558: 537: 495: 478: 422: 323: 244: 214: 201: 154: 112: 3018:

past; I don't see how this helps us build consensus about what should be in the article.

533: 345: 193:

If he is an authoritative, reputable source then we can just take what he says as gospel.

3110:, however, carry a wider signifigence. Debate still rages as to the advisability of the 2706:

Plays down the severity of the WN. Attempts to clear blame from Westminster Government.

2355:

Reverted by another later. Censorship of historic facts. The truth hurts even in 2021.

4093:

not to strike anything out, but to rely on closers discounting their contributions. --

2828: 2084: 2073: 1500: 1415: 1368: 1351: 1323: 1302: 1285: 1272: 1239: 1222: 1208: 47: 17: 3731:

of the punishment varied considerably. We can't even agree on its ultimate objective.

2974:

Censorship of historic facts. Shifts the blame for the WN from Westminster to Wales!

1548:

Have you got a copy of the Book? To prevent me having to type out whole paragraphs ;)

1094:

So as a source of history he should be removed. Just like Adam Price or Simon Brooks.

296:

https://www.amberley-books.com/author-community-main-page/f/community-martyn-ford.html

88:

Let's do this the slow and painful way: Martyn Ford is not a historian, he's a what???

4810: 4745: 4710: 4629: 4504: 4434: 4410: 4310: 4151: 4015: 4000: 3971: 3834:. The article is about an object, the origin and purpose of which is not certain. -- 3799: 3736: 3593: 3577: 3539: 3492: 3454: 3384: 3359: 3341: 3229: 3077: 2258: 1938: 1640: 1595: 1545: 1508: 909: 842: 791: 727: 654: 613: 507: 506:

i.e. "with a poor reputation for checking the facts or with no editorial oversight"?

477:(co-author; 'The How to be British'!!! 'Ye Olde Loos, Ye Olde Castle, Us in a Bus'). 452: 381: 240: 227: 183: 162: 1381:

The "many" is attached to "many teachers recognised" not to the teaching of english.

3644: 2173:" Welsh speakers were required to know and use English when holding public office." 4405:

There is no "historical consensus" on this topic. That's the crux of the problem.

4674:

data we have is probably misleading and should be declared to the reader as such.

3657:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/wales/history/sites/themes/society/language_education.shtml

2859:("hanging stick") was placed round the child's neck, if heard speaking Gaelic..." 4689: 4669: 4648: 4608: 4581: 4555: 4538: 4118: 4058: 4044: 3917: 3901: 3872: 3849: 3763: 3709: 3682: 3668: 3427: 3419: 3019: 2865: 2221: 2206: 1992: 1965: 1683: 461: 405: 150: 138: 46:

If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the

4474:

2) I was referring to the quote from Language Planning. Which you have used in

4043:? It certainly doesn't add any value and I think it's beyond 'merely uncivil' 3939:

Knowledge (XXG) articles tell the reader what the item being discussed was for.

812:

it would have been presented as his opinion as an expert in the subject matter.

4818: 4796: 4753: 4730: 4701: 4684: 4656: 4637: 4593: 4568: 4546: 4508: 4494: 4452: 4438: 4414: 4370: 4314: 4285: 4259: 4242: 4220: 4211:." If I've misunderstood the policy please, as ever, feel free to correct me. 4187: 4155: 4126: 4102: 4084: 4066: 4052: 4027: 4008: 3993: 3979: 3958: 3888: 3857: 3843: 3825: 3807: 3798:

was used there, even if not mentioned in the current version of this article.

3771: 3740: 3717: 3698: 3648:'Parallels' are all parallel systems, not things hung around people's necks. 3605: 3585: 3566: 3547: 3531: 3510: 3496: 3475: 3458: 3400: 3371: 3349: 3326: 3304: 3285: 3256: 3233: 3206: 3139:

Moreover, many teachers recognised that punishing children for speaking Welsh

3081: 3062: 3045: 3027: 3006: 2988: 2446: 2217: 2213: 2202: 2198: 1656: 1603: 1557: 1516: 1471: 1392: 1363: 1346: 1318: 1297: 1280: 1261: 1234: 1216: 1160: 1143: 1125: 1103: 1037: 1016: 976: 949: 913: 899: 846: 832: 795: 781: 731: 713: 699: 677: 658: 640: 617: 596:

to genuine learning whatsoever. (No names, no pack drill.) The quotation that

579: 545: 515: 389: 367: 331: 252: 235: 209: 170: 120: 4615:

yesterday, so I suggest that they should be reverted and Deb's edit redone.

4531:. The opening sentence to 'The Welsh Not' section provides ample background. 2733:

Clarification template. Attempts to clear blame from Westminster Government.

4778: 4534:'Purpose' is a poor duplicate of that opening sentence and could be removed. 4196: 4176:

If you haven't been reading sources like that then you don't have an opinion

3334: 1196:, but both the book and that paper say essentially the same thing.) He says 4352:

primary function of day schools in Wales was the teaching of English." Why?

4131:

Nor am I planning to, unless a topic ban is imposed on me (which of course

2274:

Deleted confirmation that the effect of the NW persisted into the 20th c.

4718: 4714: 4604: 4500: 4469: 4430: 4406: 4320: 4306: 4147: 4114: 3933: 3905: 3831: 3813: 3791: 3732: 3576:

welcome back, beware, popcorn can contain high levels of salt and sugar.

3488: 3450: 3225: 3094: 3073: 1354:

There are other historians who talk about immersion learning of english.

905: 882:

a Knowledge (XXG) policy (Did I claim it was?) a but a discussion of the

851: 838: 800: 787: 744: 723: 650: 624: 609: 146: 1644: 3795: 3592:

Penigamp!! "A right ruddy Royal pissing pantomime" (... as they say in

2741:"The purpose of the Welsh not was to stop children from speaking Welsh" 1935:

Education in English was discussed in the Reports of the Commissioners

4388:, an academic work of the highest standard, possibly be unacceptable? 3621:

Propose change opening to 'The Welsh Not was a system of punishment."

3816:. Hardly "a system". The dunce's hat wasn't ever "a system", was it? 2083:

by stigmatising, even punishing, children who were heard using the

940:? Fresh blood and a formal close might reduce the edit warring. -- 536:, otherwise it comes down. I've given you my reasons for deletion. 446:

is advertised by the publishers with the following marketing text:

4774:. This dross was written in 1997 so we can't even blame wikipedia. 4524: 566:. We can't keep the quotes we like and delete the one's we don't. 3659:"a means of forcing Welsh children to speak English at school." 1828:"Among other injurious effects, this custom has been found to..." 290:, and obtained a first degree at Aberystwyth University in 1976." 964: 866: 664: 358:

Given all that, I support using this source in this article. --

2072:"...to stigmatise and punish children who were heard using the 2043:"used in schools in Wales to attempt to promote the use of the 2040:"This was given to the first pupil to be heard speaking Welsh." 1643:

I've responded on my to the editor concerned on my talk page.

1378:

only one school that we can be certain of didn't teach english.

4384:

There's nothing wrong with the additional source. How can the

2170:"and prohibited Welsh speakers from holding public office...." 25: 4333:

You've changed "The teaching of English in Welsh schools was

3942:

The only valid opinions are those of editors that have read "

3620: 3501:

You've made my point entirely in that one post. Thanks Debs.

1895:

Deleted nearly the whole paragraph on the 'Effects' of the WN

1647:, too much noise here. The answer you want is at the bottom. 4607:'s edit. Both sections were removed or partially removed by 2997:

Cool, can you add an extra column for our responses? Thanks

2162:

Censorship of historic facts. The truth hurts even in 2021.

4738:

I am glad you are not gobsmacked, as that would be painful.

2521:"The ‘Welsh Not’ did not come from oppressors in London..." 1309:

which if we lived in a sane world would have been removed.

421:. Pathetic source! An MA in history and he's notable? OMG! 3189:

It's purpose was to enforce a method of teaching English.

815:

Knowledge (XXG) does not care about correctness or truth.

3219:. And of course then you would get into the territory of 444:

For Wales, See England: Language, Nationhood and Identity

473:('There was a sabre-toothed tiger in the playground.'), 437:: may sound reliable but do not have the reputation for 399:

This person wrote the book following his BA in history!

4777:

6) The historians seem to stacking up behind the whole

4626: 4620: 4426: 4355:

What on earth is "Language planning" when it's at home?

4090: 3876: 3686: 3195:

I think that's important and should go in the summary.

2966: 2963: 2960: 2935: 2904: 2900: 2897: 2870: 2839: 2836: 2833: 2806: 2779: 2760:

Whole paragraph deleted. Censorship of historic facts.

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Shifts the blame for the WN from Westminster to Wales!

2468: 2437: 2406: 2374: 2347: 2320: 2293: 2266: 2263: 2232: 2181: 2154: 2132: 2119: 2055: 2024: 1997: 1970: 1943: 1921: 1912: 1909: 1906: 1875: 1872: 1869: 1866: 1839: 1812: 1809: 1806: 1802: 1775: 1748: 1181: 997:

best and most reputable authoritative sources available

856:

I was working from memory regarding Hugh Trevor-Roper,

567: 3090:

The purpose of the Welsh Not should go in the summary.

3411:

Everybody please calm down - NO MORE personal attacks

3391:

Good edit, fixes the problem of readability. Thanks.

3156:" part means they intended it to work and it failed. 2954:"there was no policy to kill off the Welsh language" 2649:

Attempts to clear blame from Westminster Government

2537:

Attempts to clear blame from Westminster Government

2240:

Attempts to clear blame from Westminster Government

4425:Perhaps I could now get other people's opinions on 4337:" to "The teaching of English in Welsh schools was 3999:Martinevans123, sorry if you are feeling left out. 2943:Deletion (2nd time) Censorship of historic facts. 2282:5 paragraphs on the declite of # of Welsh speakers 1951:Hides the fact that Westminster knew about the WN 688:Category:Nationalist parties in the United Kingdom 2787:Unreferenced addition, clearly plays down the WN 2032:Attempt to lessen the effect / cruelty of the WN 1505:the purpose of the Welsh Not was to teach English 1186:the purpose of the Welsh Not was to teach English 308:Leading the way with local and specialist history 4485:What history books have you read on this topic? 2603:"...and ending usually with corporal punishment" 1959:This was to encourage pupils not to speak Welsh. 4199:of the relevant policy. If I might just quote " 3358:, you get more eyes on it. ;-) Thanks for that 1756:Hide the Church of England's anti-Welsh policy 963:follow Knowledge (XXG)'s rules then we are all 690:, I wonder what we would be left with. ;-) -- 4016:This is a local article for local sockpuppets 3685:It was me wot did it. I am the guilty party. 2013:"..to stigmatise and punish through flogging" 8: 4527:or, better yet, adding a history section to 4203:, and the principles upon which it is based 3708:think 'System' is technically more correct. 2366:Adds chapter entitled 'Contemporary reports' 2005:Hide 'stigma' and 'effect' caused by the WN 1924:+ 'you have no consensus on the talk page'. 1503:that Martin Johnes did not clearly say that 995:"Good and unbiased research, based upon the 4427:the edit that Cheezypeaz reverted wholesale 3553:"This article handmade in artisan kettles" 3354:This is why content is best discussed here 3112:total immersion method of language teaching 2189:Toned down the prohibition decreed by law. 1847:Hides the fact that the NW caused injuries 4584:Please me know when you are done editing. 3116:wholely excluded use of the Welsh language 2825:deleted an image of a girl wearing the WN 2798:deleted an image of a girl wearing the WN 2391:"The inquiry became widely known as the " 1439:Can't see the context linkage you stress. 344:, so would pass as a reliable source per 4344:You've changed "During the 19th century 3879:. Ill reply more later, need some food. 3102:Welsh language and it's social domains. 2212:"There is strong evidence of its use in 2197:"There is strong evidence of its use in 1700: 884:effects of actual Knowledge (XXG) policy 281:I did a quick search on the internets :) 4327:It's far worse in terms of readability. 4089:I asked the SPI closer about this, and 3192:The Welsh Not exists to teach English. 2572:"Countries under British colonial rule" 288:M.A. in history from Swansea University 4273: 4175: 4171: 1504: 1202: 1197: 1185: 471:The Imagination Box: A Mind of Its Own 44:Do not edit the contents of this page. 4207:by other policies or guidelines, nor 3067:I understand why the anon Englishman 2426:"Similar policies in other countries" 2016:"..to stigmatise and punish children" 217:your alternatives are too simplistic 7: 1225:I'm looking, give me a few minutes. 401:He is not a professional historian.' 4386:Cambridge Social History of Britain 2676:Plays down the severity of the WN. 2622:Plays down the severity of the WN. 663:p.s. this is the same Martyn Ford, 3640:was a system of punishment...' , 3143:in helping them with their English 765:but may be presented as his views. 24: 2224:but it was not government policy. 4713:I'm surprised you're happy with 3926:In case anyone hadn't seen this 3247:Moved here from my talkpage. -- 2447:Wales is recognised as a country 1001:helps prevent NPOV disagreements 433:The publishers (and author) are 219:Knowledge (XXG):Reliable sources 29: 3653:https://www.wrexham-history.com 3628:This article is more about the 2131:at least 4 time (see above) eg 1177:Martin Johnes on the Welsh Not. 591:Martyn Ford not reliable source 932:How about taking it to WP:RSN? 414:14:38, 23 September 2021 (UTC) 390:11:48, 23 September 2021 (UTC) 368:19:39, 22 September 2021 (UTC) 332:18:55, 22 September 2021 (UTC) 276:15:46, 22 September 2021 (UTC) 253:15:51, 23 September 2021 (UTC) 236:11:48, 23 September 2021 (UTC) 210:14:00, 22 September 2021 (UTC) 171:23:31, 21 September 2021 (UTC) 121:21:07, 21 September 2021 (UTC) 103:17:53, 21 September 2021 (UTC) 1: 4201:This policy is non-negotiable 3125:P444:"...because the kind of 2079:"..to promote the use of the 1702:Anti-Welsh / Welsh Not edits 4819:23:28, 13 October 2021 (UTC) 4797:22:23, 13 October 2021 (UTC) 4754:21:34, 13 October 2021 (UTC) 4731:16:02, 13 October 2021 (UTC) 4702:16:07, 13 October 2021 (UTC) 4685:15:41, 13 October 2021 (UTC) 4657:13:25, 13 October 2021 (UTC) 4638:13:07, 13 October 2021 (UTC) 4594:20:00, 12 October 2021 (UTC) 4569:19:46, 12 October 2021 (UTC) 4547:18:36, 12 October 2021 (UTC) 4509:11:22, 12 October 2021 (UTC) 4495:11:13, 12 October 2021 (UTC) 4453:08:14, 12 October 2021 (UTC) 4439:08:10, 12 October 2021 (UTC) 4415:08:08, 12 October 2021 (UTC) 4371:06:17, 12 October 2021 (UTC) 4315:19:54, 11 October 2021 (UTC) 4286:20:08, 11 October 2021 (UTC) 4260:18:17, 11 October 2021 (UTC) 4243:17:38, 11 October 2021 (UTC) 4221:16:05, 11 October 2021 (UTC) 4188:08:35, 11 October 2021 (UTC) 4156:08:23, 11 October 2021 (UTC) 4127:04:18, 11 October 2021 (UTC) 4103:06:24, 12 October 2021 (UTC) 4085:06:41, 11 October 2021 (UTC) 4067:04:18, 11 October 2021 (UTC) 4053:01:14, 11 October 2021 (UTC) 4028:21:45, 10 October 2021 (UTC) 4009:21:39, 10 October 2021 (UTC) 3994:21:31, 10 October 2021 (UTC) 3980:21:28, 10 October 2021 (UTC) 3959:20:13, 10 October 2021 (UTC) 3858:07:44, 10 October 2021 (UTC) 1689:In the following table, the 1460:The section is badly labled. 442:secondary sources. The book 3889:19:12, 8 October 2021 (UTC) 3844:17:58, 9 October 2021 (UTC) 3826:13:29, 9 October 2021 (UTC) 3808:13:10, 9 October 2021 (UTC) 3772:19:24, 8 October 2021 (UTC) 3741:17:15, 8 October 2021 (UTC) 3718:17:08, 8 October 2021 (UTC) 3699:16:53, 8 October 2021 (UTC) 3677:16:35, 8 October 2021 (UTC) 3606:14:01, 9 October 2021 (UTC) 3586:13:55, 9 October 2021 (UTC) 3567:12:02, 3 October 2021 (UTC) 3548:11:39, 3 October 2021 (UTC) 3532:11:22, 3 October 2021 (UTC) 3511:11:25, 3 October 2021 (UTC) 3497:11:13, 3 October 2021 (UTC) 3476:11:01, 3 October 2021 (UTC) 3459:08:07, 3 October 2021 (UTC) 3401:16:56, 8 October 2021 (UTC) 3372:12:39, 8 October 2021 (UTC) 3350:11:48, 8 October 2021 (UTC) 3327:11:12, 8 October 2021 (UTC) 3305:10:45, 8 October 2021 (UTC) 3286:10:11, 8 October 2021 (UTC) 3257:10:16, 8 October 2021 (UTC) 3242:All those dreadful names :( 3234:15:06, 8 October 2021 (UTC) 3207:13:34, 8 October 2021 (UTC) 3082:09:03, 8 October 2021 (UTC) 3063:09:47, 7 October 2021 (UTC) 3046:19:15, 6 October 2021 (UTC) 3028:17:03, 6 October 2021 (UTC) 3007:16:24, 6 October 2021 (UTC) 2989:16:15, 6 October 2021 (UTC) 2508:was written by a Journalist 2393:Treachery of the Blue Books 1855:Deletes ref to BBC citation 1657:18:57, 6 October 2021 (UTC) 1604:07:36, 6 October 2021 (UTC) 1558:07:29, 6 October 2021 (UTC) 1517:21:00, 5 October 2021 (UTC) 1472:01:11, 4 October 2021 (UTC) 1393:00:48, 4 October 2021 (UTC) 1364:00:08, 4 October 2021 (UTC) 1347:23:53, 3 October 2021 (UTC) 1319:23:41, 3 October 2021 (UTC) 1298:23:25, 3 October 2021 (UTC) 1281:22:23, 3 October 2021 (UTC) 1262:22:16, 3 October 2021 (UTC) 1235:22:09, 3 October 2021 (UTC) 1217:21:52, 3 October 2021 (UTC) 1161:11:18, 5 October 2021 (UTC) 1144:11:09, 5 October 2021 (UTC) 1126:10:52, 5 October 2021 (UTC) 1104:08:24, 5 October 2021 (UTC) 1038:07:02, 5 October 2021 (UTC) 1017:06:38, 5 October 2021 (UTC) 984:The answer is right here... 977:16:40, 4 October 2021 (UTC) 950:16:16, 4 October 2021 (UTC) 914:18:31, 4 October 2021 (UTC) 900:18:27, 4 October 2021 (UTC) 847:17:27, 4 October 2021 (UTC) 833:16:18, 4 October 2021 (UTC) 796:15:53, 4 October 2021 (UTC) 782:15:47, 4 October 2021 (UTC) 732:15:57, 4 October 2021 (UTC) 714:15:18, 4 October 2021 (UTC) 700:15:01, 4 October 2021 (UTC) 678:14:05, 4 October 2021 (UTC) 659:13:40, 4 October 2021 (UTC) 641:13:07, 4 October 2021 (UTC) 618:11:24, 4 October 2021 (UTC) 580:16:06, 4 October 2021 (UTC) 546:11:16, 4 October 2021 (UTC) 516:10:21, 4 October 2021 (UTC) 487:07:29, 4 October 2021 (UTC) 4845: 4765:linguist who thinks that " 4721:responses labled 2 and 6? 4174:". I'm not sure it means " 3127:total immersion in English 3122:as positively harmfull..." 1268:the goals of many teachers 439:fact-checking and accuracy 3655:'A system of punishment' 3133:Wales: England's colony? 3106:P438: "Criticisms of the 1716:Amended / Deleted by who? 302:His book is published by 3897:Sockpuppet investigation 3643:This is consistent with 2445:Chapter header changed; 2127:Same link as deleted by 2108:External link to the BBC 1898:deleted (on p. remained) 608:and the Hitler Diaries? 320:I haven't read the book. 4339:considered desirable by 3928:sockpupet investigation 2606:"liable to be punished" 4529:Welsh-medium education 4300:Background and purpose 2449:. Censorship of fact. 3651:This is supported by 3154:did not actually work 3141:did not actually work 2886:Quotes by politicians 475:Get Around In English 42:of past discussions. 4205:cannot be superseded 348:. Remember too, per 306:Amberley's tagline " 4763:fool, idiot, asshat 4209:by editor consensus 3984:How very shocking. 3215:case that would be 1703: 500:Amberley Publishing 467:The Imagination Box 304:Amberley_Publishing 4785:that becomes fact. 4779:immersion teaching 3503:Games of the world 3481:Games of the world 3468:Games of the world 3108:educational method 1701: 450:NB There are : --> 4032: 4011: 3922:Some thoughts... 3259: 2978: 2977: 2889:deletes whole lot 606:Hugh Trevor-Roper 85: 84: 54: 53: 48:current talk page 4836: 4603:I am happy with 4014: 3998: 3608: 3588: 3569: 3246: 2309:'Effect' chapter 2081:English language 2045:English language 1704: 867:Not a sign of it 225: 81: 56: 55: 33: 32: 26: 4844: 4843: 4839: 4838: 4837: 4835: 4834: 4833: 4302: 3899: 3623: 3591: 3572: 3552: 3485:User:John Jones 3413: 3265:Noooooo... :) 3244: 3092: 2857:maide-crochaidh 1681: 1179: 934: 593: 504:WP:QUESTIONABLE 435:WP:QUESTIONABLE 342:WP:QUESTIONABLE 222: 90: 77: 30: 22: 21: 20: 12: 11: 5: 4842: 4840: 4832: 4831: 4830: 4829: 4828: 4827: 4826: 4825: 4824: 4823: 4822: 4821: 4809:come to mind. 4806: 4786: 4775: 4742: 4739: 4708: 4707: 4706: 4705: 4704: 4662: 4661: 4660: 4659: 4641: 4640: 4623: 4601: 4600: 4599: 4598: 4597: 4596: 4574: 4573: 4572: 4571: 4550: 4549: 4535: 4532: 4520: 4519: 4518: 4517: 4516: 4515: 4514: 4513: 4512: 4511: 4483: 4480: 4462: 4461: 4460: 4459: 4458: 4457: 4456: 4455: 4445:Martinevans123 4418: 4417: 4403: 4400: 4396: 4389: 4382: 4378: 4377: 4360: 4359: 4356: 4353: 4342: 4331: 4328: 4324: 4323: 4301: 4298: 4297: 4296: 4295: 4294: 4293: 4292: 4291: 4290: 4289: 4288: 4168:WP:BESTSOURCES 4160: 4159: 4158: 4139: 4110: 4109: 4108: 4107: 4106: 4105: 4069: 4037: 4036: 4035: 4034: 4033: 4020:Martinevans123 3986:Martinevans123 3982: 3968: 3948: 3947: 3940: 3937: 3931: 3910:Martinevans123 3898: 3895: 3894: 3893: 3892: 3891: 3867: 3866: 3865: 3864: 3863: 3862: 3861: 3860: 3846: 3828: 3818:Martinevans123 3810: 3781: 3780: 3779: 3778: 3777: 3776: 3775: 3774: 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