709:
punishing children for speaking Welsh did not actually work in helping them with their
English". This sentence is in a history book by a well know history professor of some standing. He does not give it as an opinion, he does not say 'probably', he does not say 'most people think' he states it as a FACT. As editors we must assume that it is factually correct unless we have a good authoritative source that conflicts with it. In this particular instance we are are comparing it with a claim by a journalist on a blog which is not backed up by any analysis. There is no comparison. Given that there are no known authoritative disputes we can use the essential facts contained in this sentence as WP:WIKIVOICE so it's ok to state that "some teachers thought punishing children for speaking Welsh helped them with their English" Cheezypeaz 22:16, 3 October 2021 (UTC)
717:
says the opposite of what you're citing it for - it implies that many teachers recognized that the Welsh Not was not intended to teach
English and was therefore counterproductive. We certainly can't turn around and cite it to say something that amounts to "the Welsh Not was always used to try and teach English", which is the opposite of what the source says on every single point. All that aside, the sentence doesn't mention the Welsh Not at all. Is there a quote that mentions it specifically? -- Aquillion 22:23, 3 October 2021 (UTC)
983:
maybe some grumpy teenager. People in high up positions in
Knowledge (XXG) should follow the policies of Knowledge (XXG). All of them; including you know who (Deb, i'm talking about Deb here, Deb is also a wikipedia bureaucrat for Wales). I am trying to follow them. It amazes me that people don't. To be clear: A Knowledge (XXG) bureaucrat can be assumed to know wikipedia policies and if they don't follow them it's vandalism. No excuse, no defense.
57:
1130:
1042:
604:" This looks like a quote but it's not in the source you quoted nor in the book. I have checked every instance of the word 'policy' and 'policies' in both the book and the paper you cited and found nothing that supports the existance of anything like that quote. I doubt that Martin would say 'kids'. Also it isn't true.
913:
I'm not sure what he means by contradictory. The fact that different people used it differently isn't contradictory. In general I'm not keen on using the same words as a source unless you're quoting them, although of course paraphrasing can alter the meaning subtly. "Fragmentary" is okay, I guess, if
544:
policy to use the Welsh Not or to eradicate the Welsh language, but that individual teachers did so on their own initiative; he also specifically puts this in the context of the Welsh Not's history and significance. The way he was cited here pulled that out of context and gave the impression that he
701:
It isn't context; it's just more information, both statements are valid separately. We can legitimately include either the 'state policy' bit or the 'symbol of the oppression' bit or both or neither. Given that the article is much longer than the short entry in the paper we most likely should put
982:
You have always offered me good advice. And I thank you for that. However since it turns out that
Llywelyn2000 was an adult and a bureaucrat for Wales Knowledge (XXG). He should have known and applied Knowledge (XXG) policies rather than behave like a child. Which I thought he was at the time. Or
716:
was to teach
English, they recognized that punishment (in the form of the Welsh Not) did not serve that goal. (Also note "many", not "all"; again, his point is that the Welsh Not was used only by some teachers and was not official policy.) In other words, to the extent that it says anything, it
708:
Aquillion
Possibly the phrase came out of this conversation. The "argues" part wasn't me I don't think. Professor Martin Johnes has already corrected my edit. :) and didn't object to that part. Just to be really clear regarding point (2). Take the sentence "Moreover, many teachers recognised that
932:, a Knowledge (XXG) talk post may not be as carefully worded as a planned twitter post, let alone a publication which has been edited. Perhaps he means nineteenth and perhaps twentieth century general descriptions, for example in books and the press, are sometimes contradictory.
545:
was saying that no teachers ever used the Welsh Not in an effort to eradicate Welsh, which doesn't accurately reflect his opinion. I see nothing in the cited text directly connecting the Welsh Not to the teaching of
English - it looks like someone
1215:
Thanks, I will research some more into this quote. One of the joys (!) of being taught in two different education systems (Irish / English) is the history they teach! Apologies for doing the change via rollback it leaves no room for explanation.
643:
This is vital context and we cannot cite him without including it. Finally, it is completely inappropriate to put this in the "Device and method" section, when Johnes is talking about how it is perceived. --Aquillion 21:52, 3 October 2021 (UTC)
557:
The latter point we can and should include in the text (though with the additional context that, of course, it did happen due to the actions of individual teachers); the former seems to be pure synthesis. --Aquillion) 21:38, 3 October 2021 (UTC)
635:
he Welsh Not certainly existed but how widespread it was is uncertain. What is certain is that neither the Welsh Not nor eradicating Welsh from schools were ever official state policies but rather something down to individual
1001:
My advice, which you can reject if you wish, is to assume good faith on the Welsh Not page. I am sure that
Llywelyn2000 thinks he was improving Knowledge (XXG), even though I would disagree in many cases, so he is not a
1175:
1085:
640:
Imagined or otherwise, the Welsh Not has remained a powerful symbol of the oppression of Welsh culture and it continues to feature prominently in identity displays at St Fagan’s, now known as the
National History
1159:. It has the authority to impose binding solutions to disputes between editors, primarily for serious conduct disputes the community has been unable to resolve. This includes the authority to impose
1069:. It has the authority to impose binding solutions to disputes between editors, primarily for serious conduct disputes the community has been unable to resolve. This includes the authority to impose
638:
This is not the same as saying it didn't happen; the current text inappropriately misuses that quote by cutting it in half and using only the first part. Similarly, further down, he says that
722:
Professor of
History at Swansea University Martin Johnes argues that the purpose of the Welsh Not was to teach English: 100, 102 and there was no policy to kill off the Welsh language.: 100
1144:
1055:
1011:
By using vandalism rather than other terms such as disruptive editing you are contributing to making the discussion more adversarial than it needs to be. You could also be accused of
765:
A teacher helping children to learn a language is called teaching. We may not like the idea of punishment to inforce a total language immersion teaching method but that's what it was.
40:. You may benefit from following some of the links below, which will help you get the most out of Knowledge (XXG). If you have any questions you can ask me on my talk page, or place
211:
60:
or by typing four tildes "~~~~"; this will automatically produce your name and the date. If you are already excited about Knowledge (XXG), you might want to consider being "
564:
The way he was cited here pulled that out of context and gave the impression that he was saying that no teachers ever used the Welsh Not in an effort to eradicate Welsh
180:
960:
effort to improve the encyclopedia". I know that other editors have misused the word, but that does not mean you have to. Misusing the word can violate the policy on
573:
You claim that I misused a citation of the paper. I cited the book, not the paper. It clearly said this in the citation reference. I had never seen the paper before.
702:
them in two different sections. For example: 'how it worked' and 'how it came to be seen'. (the current structure and article is a mess, I am trying to improve it).
774:
In this example , it is also notable that it was only for older children, which again illustrates the growing realisation of the need to use Welsh to teach English
670:
What is certain is that neither the Welsh Not nor eradicating Welsh from schools were ever official state policies but rather something down to individual teachers
625:; it simply isn't there. Since this is a new addition it shouldn't be restored until a specific, unambiguous quote can be found. Furthermore, while he says that
883:
224:
69:
629:
the Welsh Not and the eradication of Welsh were not official policy, they were left to individual teachers (a more accessible version of the text is
202:
110:
236:
879:
1198:
1108:
220:
587:
Yes he is talking about the Welsh Not generally but that does not limit the all encompasing nature of the claim "...neither the Welsh Not
160:
621:
edit does not reflect the source. Nowhere that I can see on pages 100 or 102 does Johnes say anything remotely resembling the idea that
712:
The problem is that that doesn't say that the purpose of the Welsh Not was to teach children English. If anything, it says that while
56:
419:
198:
356:
279:
215:
37:
961:
383:
329:
1194:
1104:
1168:
1078:
1012:
396:
333:
127:
118:
957:
459:
316:
170:
415:
307:
253:
249:
137:
956:
means deliberate damage to the encyclopedia, rather than a "misguided, willfully against consensus, or disruptive, ...
679:
What is certain is that the Welsh Not was never official state policy but rather something down to individual teachers.
275:
232:
1180:
1090:
630:
441:
437:
258:
175:
759:
The Welsh Not was only used as an instrument of punishment for speaking Welsh. It wasn't used for any other purpose.
672:." Contains several facts that can be legitimately extracted and used without changing their meaning. For example...
810:
The many in "many teachers recognised" is attached to teachers as a whole. It does not say "many English teachers".
351:
270:
207:
467:
342:
311:
240:
123:
61:
31:
1222:
1156:
1066:
405:
401:
392:
388:
65:
873:
450:
283:
245:
51:
953:
338:
324:
266:
166:
656:
the current text inappropriately misuses that quote by cutting it in half and using only the first part.
553:(a statement with no connection to the Welsh Not at all) with a later statement on a separate page that
320:
114:
776:" So they stopped using the Welsh Not for younger children because it wasn't working to teach English.
864:
Hi. Thank you for your recent edits. An automated process has detected that when you recently edited
540:
Belatedly, the cite to Martin Johnes was misusing the cited text. Johnes says that there was not an
1138:
1049:
648:
This appears to be a rewrite of your first message. So I'll ignore any claim already answered above.
411:
378:
1217:
1152:
1062:
835:
So some teachers mistakenly thought it was to teach English? I think you have just agreed with me.
1020:
969:
937:
505:
81:
546:
463:
576:
Your claim that Martin is limiting his statement to only those teachers who used the Welsh Not
899:
762:
Therefore it's correct to say that the Welsh Not was used for helping them with their English.
73:
1164:
1074:
826:
it implies that many teachers recognized that the Welsh Not was not intended to teach English
580:
wanted to eradicate Welsh from schools is refuted by both the book and by the paper you cite.
445:
262:
1187:
1097:
72:
for a directory of all the WikiProjects. Finally, please do your best to always fill in the
1167:, editing restrictions, and other measures needed to maintain our editing environment. The
1160:
1077:, editing restrictions, and other measures needed to maintain our editing environment. The
1070:
347:
155:
984:
846:
519:
454:
47:
876:, since a disambiguation page is merely a list of unrelated topics with similar titles.
535:
68:
to collaborate with others in creating and improving articles of your interest. Click
1016:
979:
965:
933:
919:
890:
It's OK to remove this message. Also, to stop receiving these messages, follow these
515:
501:
77:
895:
891:
133:
1129:
1041:
854:
739:
Moreover, many teachers recognised that punishing children for speaking Welsh
500:
500+ edits, 6+ months editing, 10+ edits in the last month, No active blocks.
665:
Again, I have never seen this paper. I am not quoting from it in the article.
865:
633:, but both the book and that paper say essentially the same thing.) He says
952:
Please do not use the V word about contributions to the Welsh Not article.
929:
915:
869:
1228:
1202:
1171:
describes the Committee's roles and responsibilities in greater detail.
1112:
1081:
describes the Committee's roles and responsibilities in greater detail.
1024:
992:
973:
941:
923:
903:
555:
there was no official policy to use the Welsh Not or to eradicate Welsh.
509:
494:
85:
1148:
are allowed to vote. Users with alternate accounts may only vote once.
1059:
are allowed to vote. Users with alternate accounts may only vote once.
787:
and didn't change the thing you are claiming that I miss-represented.
817:
teachers was to teach English. That is what the schools were for.
493:
Hi, you should now have access to the Knowledge (XXG) Library at
1184:. If you no longer wish to receive these messages, you may add
1094:. If you no longer wish to receive these messages, you may add
682:
Eradicating Welsh from schools was never official state policiy.
1174:
If you wish to participate in the 2023 election, please review
1142:
is now open until 23:59 (UTC) on Monday, 11 December 2023. All
1084:
If you wish to participate in the 2021 election, please review
694:"is vital context and we cannot cite him without including it".
1053:
is now open until 23:59 (UTC) on Monday, 6 December 2021. All
668:
Your logic is, in any case, wrong. This quote from the paper "
726:(I'm using kindle so the page numbers may be 1 page out.)
609:(a statement with no connection to the Welsh Not at all)
1155:
is the panel of editors responsible for conducting the
1065:
is the panel of editors responsible for conducting the
868:, you added a link pointing to the disambiguation page
784:
651:
I'll deal with the source argument in the next section.
618:
756:" part means they intended it to work and it failed.
549:up that interpretation by connecting the fact that
611:". Yes it would, if it were true - which it isn't.
623:the purpose of the Welsh Not was to teach English
76:field when making edits to pages. Happy editing!
783:Martin Johnes himself edited that very sentence
497:if you meet the criteria for automatic access:
50:and ask your question there. Please remember to
860:Disambiguation link notification for October 8
843:Please retract your claims on the talk page.
602:the official policy was to teach kids English
551:the official policy was to teach kids English
8:
64:" by a more experienced editor or joining a
1036:
639:
634:
622:
495:https://wikipedialibrary.wmflabs.org/
7:
1139:2023 Arbitration Committee elections
1050:2021 Arbitration Committee elections
1157:Knowledge (XXG) arbitration process
1123:ArbCom 2023 Elections voter message
1067:Knowledge (XXG) arbitration process
1033:ArbCom 2021 Elections voter message
962:Knowledge (XXG):No personal attacks
124:The five pillars of Knowledge (XXG)
1013:Knowledge (XXG):Disruptive editing
743:in helping them with their English
591:eradicating Welsh from schools..."
14:
909:"Fragmentary" and "contradictory"
730:Citations that support the claim.
1128:
1040:
914:it's the best term we can find.
55:
1178:and submit your choices on the
1088:and submit your choices on the
181:Request administrator attention
111:Contributing to Knowledge (XXG)
792:Your analysis of the sentence.
1:
1203:00:57, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
1113:00:56, 23 November 2021 (UTC)
685:Etc. (basically see the book)
360:(Knowledge (XXG)'s newspaper)
225:Biographies of living persons
93:
1229:08:27, 8 December 2023 (UTC)
1025:22:40, 12 October 2021 (UTC)
993:22:21, 12 October 2021 (UTC)
974:21:29, 12 October 2021 (UTC)
942:21:19, 12 October 2021 (UTC)
518:Thanks for letting me know!
924:10:56, 8 October 2021 (UTC)
904:05:57, 8 October 2021 (UTC)
855:18:50, 6 October 2021 (UTC)
510:14:04, 5 October 2021 (UTC)
489:The Knowledge (XXG) Library
221:What Knowledge (XXG) is not
1244:
1195:MediaWiki message delivery
1105:MediaWiki message delivery
801:the goals of many teachers
714:the goals of many teachers
156:Frequently Asked Questions
86:14:41, 18 March 2019 (UTC)
54:on talk pages by clicking
954:Knowledge (XXG):Vandalism
1192:to your user talk page.
1102:to your user talk page.
988:
850:
523:
530:
384:Help develop an article
190:Policies and Guidelines
161:Directories and indexes
803:was to teach English".
1211:Sir Charles Trevelyan
1153:Arbitration Committee
1136:Hello! Voting in the
1063:Arbitration Committee
1047:Hello! Voting in the
754:did not actually work
741:did not actually work
199:Neutral point of view
892:opt-out instructions
406:Translating articles
312:Adopt-a-user program
280:Conflict of interest
216:No original research
531:Aquillion's changes
330:No personal attacks
34:to Knowledge (XXG)!
29:Hello, Cheezypeaz!
1169:arbitration policy
1079:arbitration policy
882:• Join us at the
402:Join a WikiProject
397:Requested articles
379:Be bold in editing
334:Resolving disputes
128:Simplified ruleset
119:Your first article
38:your contributions
1227:
1205:
1120:
1119:
1115:
887:
874:usually incorrect
872:. Such links are
483:
482:
479:
478:
475:
474:
317:Assume good faith
291:
290:
241:Three-revert rule
92:
91:
1235:
1221:
1193:
1191:
1132:
1103:
1101:
1044:
1037:
877:
460:Useful templates
308:Community Portal
295:
294:
254:Image use policy
250:Non-free content
203:Reliable sources
98:
97:
94:
59:
44:
25:
24:
21:
20:
1243:
1242:
1238:
1237:
1236:
1234:
1233:
1232:
1213:
1208:
1207:
1185:
1133:
1125:
1095:
1035:
950:
911:
884:DPL WikiProject
862:
718:
710:
645:
559:
533:
491:
430:
370:
339:Build consensus
300:
276:Deletion policy
233:Manual of Style
191:
148:
138:upload an image
103:
102:Getting Started
88:
42:
19:
12:
11:
5:
1241:
1239:
1218:Edmund Patrick
1212:
1209:
1176:the candidates
1145:eligible users
1134:
1127:
1126:
1124:
1121:
1118:
1117:
1086:the candidates
1056:eligible users
1045:
1034:
1031:
1030:
1029:
1028:
1027:
1006:
1005:
1004:
1003:
996:
995:
949:
946:
945:
944:
910:
907:
861:
858:
841:
840:
839:
838:
837:
836:
830:
829:
821:
820:
819:
818:
811:
805:
804:
794:
793:
789:
788:
780:
779:
778:
777:
769:
768:
767:
766:
763:
760:
757:
747:
746:
732:
731:
720:
711:
707:
706:
705:
704:
703:
696:
695:
691:
690:
689:
688:
687:
686:
683:
680:
674:
673:
666:
660:
659:
652:
649:
617:
615:
613:
612:
605:
597:
596:
595:
594:
593:
592:
582:
581:
574:
568:
567:
539:
532:
529:
528:
527:
490:
487:
485:
481:
480:
477:
476:
473:
472:
471:
470:
457:
448:
432:
431:
428:
425:
424:
423:
422:
408:
399:
386:
372:
371:
368:
365:
364:
363:
362:
354:
345:
336:
327:
314:
302:
301:
298:
292:
289:
288:
287:
286:
273:
259:External links
256:
243:
229:
228:
227:
218:
212:Citing sources
205:
193:
192:
189:
186:
185:
184:
183:
178:
176:Tip of the day
173:
163:
158:
150:
149:
146:
143:
142:
141:
140:
130:
121:
105:
104:
101:
90:
89:
52:sign your name
36:Thank you for
28:
18:
15:
13:
10:
9:
6:
4:
3:
2:
1240:
1231:
1230:
1226:
1225:
1219:
1210:
1206:
1204:
1200:
1196:
1189:
1183:
1182:
1177:
1172:
1170:
1166:
1162:
1158:
1154:
1149:
1147:
1146:
1141:
1140:
1131:
1122:
1116:
1114:
1110:
1106:
1099:
1093:
1092:
1087:
1082:
1080:
1076:
1072:
1068:
1064:
1058:
1057:
1052:
1051:
1046:
1043:
1039:
1038:
1032:
1026:
1022:
1018:
1014:
1010:
1009:
1008:
1007:
1000:
999:
998:
997:
994:
990:
986:
981:
978:
977:
976:
975:
971:
967:
963:
959:
955:
947:
943:
939:
935:
931:
928:
927:
926:
925:
921:
917:
908:
906:
905:
901:
897:
893:
888:
885:
881:
875:
871:
867:
859:
857:
856:
852:
848:
844:
834:
833:
832:
831:
827:
823:
822:
816:
812:
809:
808:
807:
806:
802:
798:
797:
796:
795:
791:
790:
786:
782:
781:
775:
771:
770:
764:
761:
758:
755:
751:
750:
749:
748:
744:
742:
736:
735:
734:
733:
729:
728:
727:
724:
723:
715:
700:
699:
698:
697:
693:
692:
684:
681:
678:
677:
676:
675:
671:
667:
664:
663:
662:
661:
657:
653:
650:
647:
646:
642:
637:
632:
628:
624:
620:
616:
610:
606:
603:
599:
598:
590:
586:
585:
584:
583:
579:
575:
572:
571:
570:
569:
565:
561:
560:
556:
552:
548:
543:
538:
537:
525:
521:
517:
514:
513:
512:
511:
507:
503:
498:
496:
488:
486:
469:
465:
461:
458:
456:
452:
449:
447:
443:
439:
436:
435:
434:
433:
429:Miscellaneous
427:
426:
421:
417:
413:
410:Cleaning up:
409:
407:
403:
400:
398:
394:
390:
387:
385:
381:
380:
376:
375:
374:
373:
367:
366:
361:
359:
355:
353:
352:Mailing lists
349:
346:
344:
340:
337:
335:
331:
328:
326:
322:
318:
315:
313:
309:
306:
305:
304:
303:
299:The Community
297:
296:
293:
285:
281:
277:
274:
272:
271:Sock puppetry
268:
264:
260:
257:
255:
251:
247:
244:
242:
238:
234:
231:
230:
226:
222:
219:
217:
213:
209:
208:Verifiability
206:
204:
200:
197:
196:
195:
194:
188:
187:
182:
179:
177:
174:
172:
171:make requests
168:
167:ask questions
164:
162:
159:
157:
154:
153:
152:
151:
145:
144:
139:
135:
131:
129:
125:
122:
120:
116:
112:
109:
108:
107:
106:
100:
99:
96:
95:
87:
83:
79:
75:
71:
67:
63:
58:
53:
49:
45:
39:
35:
33:
27:
26:
23:
22:
16:
1223:
1214:
1179:
1173:
1150:
1143:
1137:
1135:
1089:
1083:
1060:
1054:
1048:
951:
912:
889:
863:
845:
842:
825:
814:
813:The goal of
800:
773:
753:
740:
738:
725:
721:
719:
713:
669:
655:
626:
614:
608:
601:
588:
577:
563:
554:
550:
541:
534:
499:
492:
484:
468:User scripts
442:Disambiguity
377:
369:Things to do
358:The Signpost
357:
348:IRC channels
343:Village pump
147:Getting Help
74:edit summary
41:
30:
1181:voting page
1091:voting page
948:"Vandalism"
393:Peer review
389:Maintenance
134:edit a page
66:WikiProject
1165:topic bans
1075:topic bans
1015:yourself.
985:Cheezypeaz
958:good-faith
894:. Thanks,
878:(Read the
847:Cheezypeaz
547:WP:SYNTHed
520:Cheezypeaz
455:Talk pages
451:User pages
438:Categories
284:Notability
246:Copyrights
237:Simplified
165:Where to:
43:{{helpme}}
1161:site bans
1071:site bans
866:Welsh Not
636:teachers.
536:Aquillion
420:Vandalism
325:Etiquette
267:Vandalism
48:talk page
1017:TSventon
980:TSventon
966:TSventon
934:TSventon
870:Anglesea
542:official
516:TSventon
502:TSventon
321:Civility
132:How to:
115:Tutorial
78:Peaceray
46:on your
17:Welcome!
1188:NoACEMM
1098:NoACEMM
1002:vandal.
896:DPL bot
641:Museum.
412:General
62:adopted
32:Welcome
1224:confer
772:P100 "
737:P102 "
752:The "
464:Tools
446:Stubs
1199:talk
1151:The
1109:talk
1061:The
1021:talk
989:talk
970:talk
938:talk
920:talk
900:talk
851:talk
785:here
631:here
627:both
619:This
524:talk
506:talk
416:Spam
263:Spam
239:) •
82:talk
70:here
930:Deb
916:Deb
880:FAQ
815:all
589:nor
578:and
1201:)
1190:}}
1186:{{
1163:,
1111:)
1100:}}
1096:{{
1073:,
1023:)
991:)
972:)
964:.
940:)
922:)
902:)
886:.)
853:)
828:".
799:"
745:".
508:)
466:•
462:•
453:•
444:•
440:•
418:•
414:•
404:•
395:•
391:•
382:•
350:•
341:•
332:•
323:•
319:•
310:•
282:•
278:•
269:•
265:•
261:•
252:•
248:•
223:•
214:•
210:•
201:•
169:•
136:•
126:•
117:•
113:•
84:)
1220:–
1197:(
1107:(
1019:(
987:(
968:(
936:(
918:(
898:(
849:(
824:"
658:"
654:"
607:"
600:"
566:"
562:"
526:)
522:(
504:(
235:(
80:(
Text is available under the Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike License. Additional terms may apply.
