1798:"Time magazine said Astronaut Frank Borman had amused audiences during February 1969 European tour by claiming Apollo 8 astronauts deserved overtime pay because they had aged about 300 microseconds more than people on earth during moon mission. At NASA'srequest, Univ. of Maryland physicist Carroll Alley had calculated effects on astronauts of phenomena described in Einstein’s relativity equations- time ran slower for object as its speed increased, and time accelerated for object as it moved away from body exerting gravitational force. Alley found Apollo 8 spacecraft speed was predominant factor when it was within 4,000 mi of earth; time slowed and astronauts actually aged more slowly. Beyond 4,000 mi, effects of earth’s gravity lessened as Apollo’s time passed 300 microseconds faster than earth's. Despite Alley’s calculations, said Time, Borman’s claim was valid only for Astronaut William A. Anders, who made his first space flight on Apollo 8. Astronauts Borman and James A. Lovell had been crew mates on Dec. 4-18, 1965, Gemini VII, when time dilation effect was dominant for entire two weeks. They had aged less than those on Earth by 400 microseconds. Lovell’s time also had been slowed during four-day Gemini XII mission Nov. 11-15, 1966, by about 100 microseconds. “Thus,” said Time, “during all their missions in space, Lovell and Borman respectively spent 200 and 100 microseconds less time than was recorded on earth-which means they were paid for more time than they actually worked."
2357:, again, he was a MAJOR GENERAL, which means he rose through the ranks for decades of service. He wasn't just an "X served in the military" individual. While you may not have known of him for his military career, or even his NASA career prior to this article, many others have and did. And even though NASA is not a military branch, the majority of astronauts prior to shuttle missions in the 1980s were either active duty military or prior military. I can't see any reasonable rationale that this article should not utilize the military date format. A4M2
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2416:, at this point, all I can respond with is, "See Hawkeye7's comments above and make a case for overturning the current format, overruling the preferred format per MOS, etc.". The current standard for military-related articles is the DMY format already established in this article. I'm unclear on what the big deal is to leave it as it is. The current format is, after all, in accordance with MOS. It seems the others are not and might need to be corrected. Good luck on your quest for change. A4M2
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1142:. I have read that article 3 or 4 times. While this article is very interesting and fascinating, nowhere does it state any factual evidence that Anders rejected or questioned his own religion. None of his quotes reflect this. Only an unreferenced and unproven editorially enhanced biography at the end of the article.
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You can create an RFC to abolish the use of the mdy and impose a
English Knowledge (XXG)-wide standard of using dmy if you like, but proposals of that nature rarely achieve consensus. (A proposal that all spaceflight articles use dmy failed a few years back.) From experience, what you are more likely
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I respectfully disagree. Other examples of military members using the standard MDY format have been listed as an example, including those who were most well-known for military involvement and others with about as much involvement. If we reduce every article to "X served in the military, therefore we
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A little further down in the MOS it quotes an ArbCom ruling that you must preserve the existing date format unless you can generate a consensus for another format. I have done this a few times, but it is often contentious, and usually people cannot be bothered, so articles tend to remain in whatever
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I'm not seeing that on the local news. And there have been no reports of downed aircraft in the last week and in the area Anders was flying. Also, I have friends in the local aviation community where Anders flew out of. One of them talked to a good friend of Anders just today about the crash. It
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Full quote: "Don't despair, things may not be as bad as they seem. Last year, at the splendid STARMUS conference in
Tenerife that brought together astronauts and scientists, I had many agreeable conversations with Bill Anders, astronaut who famously read from the first Chapter of the book of Genesis
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I certainly would, and I agree with your point that abolishing MDY would cause more confusion than it would solved problems (and I can only imagine the updating and upkeep it would require!). I came into this discussion thinking of a mix between points 2 and 3, and I definitely think that, if we do
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I removed the two sentences that claimed, "However according to one article his outlook on religion changed profoundly after his participation in the Apollo 8 mission. He found his experience of space made a mockery of his beliefs and he gave up religion." This statement is completely unfounded. I
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This part needs clarifying: 'they then returned to China'. In 1933 Hong Kong was a
British colony, so not part of China (geographically, but not politically). So did they go back to Hong Kong (as is suggested by 'returned'? Or did they go to a different part of geographic China?
1616:, as expected. No quality issues, as expected from a GA. My only quarrel is with the hook: Does it need the comma? I have occasionally seen it used like this before, but it looked weird to me as a non-native, and I couldn't find any reference to this usage in
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3. At the risk of belaboring the obvious, it is highly unlikely that someone who qualified in the NASA missile program and reached Major
General in the United States Air Force would issue or utter such an incredible and frankly unbelievable statement.
2322:, most military biographies use the standard American military dmy format. This only applies to people whose primary claim to notability is their military (or NASA) service. It does not apply to someone who just served in the military for a time like
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definitely happened today. The sources are saying today, his family is saying it was today, his friends are saying it was today, his museum is posting that it was today. The truth is it was today, so we should stick with today. A4M2
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I just found it odd that you would insist he died a week ago when every news source yesterday not only said it was yesterday but so many of them quoted his own son and his foundation confirming it was yesterday. No big deal, but it
1783:'Due to time dilation, he had aged about 300 microseconds more than people back on Earth." a fun tidbit, but just curious, since the crew was going so fast, wouldn't that mean the crew had aged a tiny bit LESS than those on Earth?
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That said, if contributors can locate refuting data -- hopefully from personal references and not from questionable and highly notoriously socially biased newspapers such as "The
Guardian" -- I will happily stand corrected.
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organizations as well as those not so affiliated, country and region-specific topics, and anything else related to
Scouting. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this page, or visit the
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Well, I certainly wouldn't want to abolish the use of mdy because dmy would look pretty funny in my main area of focus, American sports. What I would like to see is either 1) MOS:MILFORMAT applied universally, trumping
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while orbiting the moon on Apollo 8 in 1968. Major
General Anders, a gallant, intelligent and entertaining man, told me he has no respect for religion. He read the Bible in space only because he was told to by NASA."
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I think it's fair to say that Anders is most well known for his NASA career, whereas Leahy, Patton, Schwarzkopf, and many others are notable entirely for their military careers. There's a problem with the MOS here.
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As a "religious" person myself, this is an interesting discussion. Of course, I'm sure Anders knew or had been told that one can recite a message to others without having to personally believe in said message.
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or 2) the elimination of MOS:MILFORMAT or 3) a clarification that MOS:MILFORMAT only applies to bios notable first and foremost for military service. The status quo is a dysfunctional, contradictory mess.
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Another point: NASA isn't a military organization; it's an independent government agency. So while they may follow some rules in using military time, I don't know if it would necessarily be as strict.
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I don't see it being pretty enforced and as Jweiss11 pointed out, there's other articles of US military officials that use month-day-year. I'm in support of having dates reverted back to mdy style. --
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and The
Associated Press reported that Anders died on Friday, 7 June 2024. Not sure why people were thinking he was dead a week ago. The crash happened at around 11:40 a.m. PDT on 7 June 2024.
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2289:, Anders retired from the US Air Force as a Major General and was in the Air Force while he was with NASA. That easily qualifies the article for use of military style dates. A4M2
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2, I could find no other sources that could possibly confirm the claim that Anders rejected or otherwise questioned the religion of his birth, or even suggestions thereto.
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articles on the modern US military, including biographical articles related to the modern US military, should use day-before-month, in accordance with US military usage.
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https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13507845/Apollo-8-astronaut-William-Anders-90-named-pilot-killed-small-plane-slammed-Washington-lake-fireball.html
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doesn't address biographies of those who are notable for US military service and something else. And MOS:MILFORMAT is circumstantially at odds with
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The source identifies him as the pilot, it doesn't confirm his death. Another article from the same source says it's unknown if anyone survived.
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that "It was Bill Anders who recited
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I get that he was a MAJOR GENERAL... and Colin Powell was a 4-star general, yet his article uses the standard MDY format; as does
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Here is a post in which
Richard Dawkins says that Anders told him at the STARMUS conference that he had no respect for religion:
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on Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the ongoing discussions.
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continue to use it (which I'm not opposed to), we should consider using it only for non-biographical military articles.
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Interesting, thanks! I missed that. In this case I have no objection to keeping it, either; may the promoter decide. –
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The sources say he died last Friday. I wish they would give the date instead of the day. It would avoid confusion.
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such that we cannot apply formats consistently across analogous articles. Do we need an RFC to address this?
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Okay, I was not aware of that line in the MOS. This point doesn't seem to applied very well. See
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The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below.
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to get is a consensus that the issue be addressed on an article-by-article basis.
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Why was his death speculated on a week ago, if he just died today? That's weird...
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as
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I'm a little concerned that the hook will direct most readers to click on
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Until it is confirmed in a reliable source, I have reverted the change.
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The Daily Mail said he's sadly dead... so does that confirm it or not?
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is he really dead his death isn’t showing on google or here is he dead
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1. The contributors sole reference is from the UK Guardian newspaper:
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A news item involving this article was featured on Knowledge (XXG)'s
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Image is freely licensed, used in the article, and clear at 100px.
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should use DMY" then a lot of articles would need to be changed.
2395:(Navy 1949-1960) just to name a few. In fact, running through a
1707:. Would you be okay with removing Earthrise's link in the hook?
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https://www.fox13seattle.com/news/william-anders-wa-plane-crash
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http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2008/nov/30/apollo-8-mission
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Knowledge (XXG) Did you know articles that are good articles
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Article is sourced, neutral, and free of copyright problems
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I understand that US military usage, however, I agree with
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format someone chose for the first non-stub version.
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He didn't die today; his death was confirmed today.
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Earwig's picks up the incorporate public domain text
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North American military history task force articles
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2223:That's a pretty dysfunctional state of affairs.
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1915:You corrected the death date to a week ago. -
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2338:) and (c) that it is not just POV pushing.
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432:on Knowledge (XXG)'s
425:level-5 vital article
251:good article criteria
195:Auto-archiving period
100:Neutral point of view
2373:Dwight D. Eisenhower
1612:I like the picture!
1483:copyright violations
1033:United States portal
959:spaceflight articles
814:Scouting WikiProject
303:Good article nominee
105:No original research
2320:WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS
1644:parenthetical comma
1059:Articles Requested!
747:(c. 1945 – c. 1989)
745:Cold War task force
2387:(Navy 1893-1959),
2379:(Army 1909-1945),
1779:Time Dilation note
1491:close paraphrasing
928:Spaceflight portal
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2182:Buzz Aldrin
1648:false title
1431:Long enough
950:Spaceflight
941:spaceflight
897:Spaceflight
391:In the news
148:free images
31:not a forum
2538:Categories
2482:Alaska4Me2
2418:Alaska4Me2
2389:John Glenn
2359:Alaska4Me2
2291:Alaska4Me2
2190:Jim Mattis
2178:Jim Lovell
2073:Alaska4Me2
2033:Alaska4Me2
2002:Alaska4Me2
1487:plagiarism
1420:New enough
1346:(pictured)
840:discussion
395:column on
364:(pictured)
342:column on
249:under the
2462:(discuss)
2346:(discuss)
2215:(discuss)
2160:(discuss)
2094:Abebenjoe
2058:(discuss)
2022:(discuss)
1965:(discuss)
1875:(discuss)
1843:(discuss)
1806:(discuss)
1759:Hong Kong
1741:(discuss)
1701:Earthrise
1658:(discuss)
1342:Earthrise
1333:... that
1325:Earthrise
1178:Anon12356
1135:explain:
586:Biography
519:Biography
459:Biography
428:is rated
385:Main Page
361:Earthrise
332:Main Page
88:if needed
71:Be polite
21:talk page
2486:Jweiss11
2457:Hawkeye7
2441:Jweiss11
2341:Hawkeye7
2259:Jweiss11
2225:Jweiss11
2210:Hawkeye7
2194:Jweiss11
2155:Hawkeye7
2133:Jweiss11
2129:Hawkeye7
2053:Hawkeye7
2017:Hawkeye7
1960:Hawkeye7
1870:Hawkeye7
1838:Hawkeye7
1801:Hawkeye7
1736:Hawkeye7
1717:contribs
1695:Hawkeye7
1670:Hawkeye7
1653:Hawkeye7
1597:: Done.
1481:Free of
1410:General:
1380:Hawkeye7
1366:Reviewed
1350:Source:
1274:promoted
1220:unsigned
845:Scouting
819:Scouting
772:Scouting
598:Cold War
582:Aviation
464:Military
430:GA-class
263:reassess
186:Archives
56:get help
29:This is
27:article.
2192:, etc.
1604:Overall
1471:Neutral
1450:Policy:
1298:Comment
1278:CSJJ104
1201:— O'Dea
1191:Divbis0
1157:Divbis0
1109:on the
977:on the
872:on the
823:Guiding
387:in the
334:in the
286:Process
199:90Â days
154:WPÂ refs
142:scholar
2318:While
1931:Kayfox
1917:Kayfox
1547:Image:
1489:, and
1075:Alerts
827:WAGGGS
436:scale.
308:Listed
289:Result
126:Google
1816:Death
1622:Evrik
1520:Cited
1510:Hook:
1394:) at
1388:Evrik
417:This
169:JSTOR
130:books
84:Seek
2505:talk
2490:talk
2480:and
2445:talk
2422:talk
2405:talk
2363:talk
2310:talk
2295:talk
2270:talk
2243:talk
2229:talk
2198:talk
2137:talk
2098:talk
2077:talk
2037:talk
2006:talk
1949:talk
1935:talk
1921:talk
1889:talk
1859:talk
1826:talk
1789:talk
1770:talk
1713:talk
1683:talk
1633:talk
1392:talk
1384:talk
1302:view
1282:talk
1228:talk
1207:talk
1182:talk
1161:talk
969:High
831:WOSM
829:and
821:and
508:and
283:Date
162:FENS
136:news
73:and
2069:was
1624:? –
1595:QPQ
1300:or
1276:by
1259:or
1101:Low
864:Mid
176:TWL
2540::
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2492:)
2447:)
2424:)
2407:)
2375:,
2365:)
2326:.
2312:)
2297:)
2272:)
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2200:)
2188:,
2184:,
2180:,
2176:,
2149::
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2100:)
2079:)
2039:)
2008:)
1951:)
1937:)
1923:)
1891:)
1861:)
1828:)
1791:)
1772:)
1715:•
1686:)
1636:)
1606::
1570::
1559::
1522::
1493::
1485:,
1473::
1462::
1433::
1422::
1368::
1356:.
1348:?
1293:(
1284:)
1255:,
1230:)
1209:)
1184:)
1163:)
661:/
596:/
592:/
588:/
584:/
580::
556:).
462::
326:A
266:it
257:.
197::
156:)
54:;
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981:.
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442:.
399:.
393:"
389:"
367:?
348:.
340:"
336:"
268:.
191:1
188::
172:·
166:·
158:·
151:·
145:·
139:·
133:·
128:(
58:.
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