Talk:T-34/Archive 5 - Knowledge (XXG)

441:] at the bottom of the page? Problem is that engine and transmission problems are pretty serious in the T-34 but worse in most of the German AFV's interleaved road wheels being part of the issue jamming with snow and mud. Soviet production in alot of things didn't compare well to U.S. production. Reviewing the article it claimed the T-34 was using a rejected US tranmission design that at that time was 12 years out of date. Further that the lack of heat treatment of the armour and of the varous cogs were creating havoc. The air cleaner seemed to work as a dirt ingester that was insuffient airflow, and hard to believe friction clutches, ect. How that related in later model tanks though we don't know. I would have hoped that they improved but then we are guessing and needless to say I don't and won't go there. I remember when I was in STANAVFORLANT watching half a fotilla having engineering difficulties in keeping up at with us at 28 knots and my ship was 18 years old at that point. As I recall, been awhile since I looked, the Germans had a terrible time after Operation Cobra with AFV's breaking down when things got fluid. As I recall the Sherman was looking pretty good in comparison. I guess what I am getting to here is that none of the vehicles were looking all that good on the Eastern Front and the T-34 was better than most. The biggest problem with the late model tanks were still lacking in enough radios and as late as 1945 the ave German was 3 times more destructive than his Soviet counterpart according to Mr. Dunigan and "How to make war". I think faulty C&C issues are the least understood but most damning problem in armies. Ask the Prussians at Jena. 235:

accomplished any more except pleasing them in fixing our dreadful article. One of them I have extreme doubts even has English as a primary language. I started noticing that he was missing fine context in replies and that coupled with syntax errors gave it away. I then check another user to find his talk page dominated by his rushing in and trashing verbally multiple articles and ing said article over and over and then waiting to revert with and rv anyone that dared change anything so that it might be readable again. Both of these folks are then hiding under the OR umbrella even if one of them apparently doesn't understand what it really means. Then I find out this individual is part of a debating team so that we are all providing one of his primary forms of entertainment. Neither one of these fine folks really adds anything but let me be clear, if your grasp of the English language isn't all that it should be, or your technical ability is not such as to allow you to edit a specialist type of document you probably should not ever be editing such documents. I always wondered why RHD was so upset at wiki and I suspect this is it.

495:

recognising high ground pressure and narrow track were to be avoided, sloping armour was already being used in the M3/M4. However one thing that was in the article and it is seen in some of the discussions about western heavy tanks, was that the further a tank column went the more you ended up with a bunch of medium tanks, the heavies were always struggling to keep up or breaking down. More to the point the moblity side of the afv design triangle had to be paid attention to in any sort of extended campaign. There was no more Soviet heavies after the T-10, the US never liked heavies more than to play with prototypes as with Britain. The US was never happy with the M-26/M-47 replacing it with the M-48 as fast as it could be developed. However the direct linage to the T-20 series could be tracked to the M-1 not the M-4. It is interesting to note that the 2nd most produced tank of WWII was the M-4 49,000 to the T-34's 57,000.

670:

that Aberdean had refused to use 12 years before. They also mention friction clutches, like you use on a lawnmower being used in the T-34. The problem being here if that was the case it probably wasn't for very long the damn things would be breaking down every 50 miles and they didn't. How and when they got better is going to take a researcher years to track down. Talk about OR... I had an uncle that served in Patton's 3rd Army. He has passed away but I remember him telling me that after Cobra they were catching up all sorts of German armor that was better than a Sherman but they couldn't keep it running long enough to get it out of the way of the oncoming allied armies. He talked about seeing miles of this... again all hearsay (litterally) but once you open that can of worms every editor in WP will hammer us and it is a position I refuse to put myself in.

642:

descriptive and less simplistic. I like your wording, "...three design elements...firepower, protection, and mobility." Perhaps this could be used to replace "big three" with some additional wording. How about, The three principal design elements ....?" For the record, reliability refers to the entire weapon system, not just how well the tank gets around the battlefield. For example, if the main gun sights don't maintain proper alignment, you can't hit anything. Reliability right? You can have the best tank in the world in terms of battlefield mobility, but if it keeps throwing tracks, it's unreliable. Anyway, a rewrite of the sentence in question will almost certainly solve our problem.

553:(+), curly braces ({}), or square braces (). In place of an ampersand (&) use the word and, unless the ampersand is part of a formal name. Avoid putting links in headings; try to link the first occurrence of the word or phrase in the section text, instead. Keep the heading short: headings more than ten words long may defeat their purpose. Avoid redundancy and unnecessary words in headings, such as articles (a, an, and the), pronouns, and repetition of the title of the whole article. Do not give identical titles to different sections. Doing so tends to confuse the reader, and makes it more difficult for any writer to create a section link to any such section except the first. 519:

effectiveness against its Russian counterpart. I have not heard of a 90mm Sherman seeing combat in Korea. In answer to your question about who was responsible for sending us out in undergunned death traps, it was Lt. Gen. Leslie J. McNair. A long time staffer, McNair was a genius at organization, but demonstrated very little understanding of, or for that matter, any willingness to learn about the actual effectiveness of our tanks and tank destroyers on the battlefield. Had he died a year earlier, we would have gone ashore in Europe equipped with 250 T26 tanks and possibly even some 90mm Shermans. It would have made a difference.

137:"one of the 3 best fighters in U.S. aviation history". I could make enough arugments to say it wasn't in the top 10 or it was the best period. Its unsupportable opinion. To say that the T-34 is the best, revolutionary, ect, is opinion. Stating that 60,000 T-34 were produced with the next closest being the M-4 Sherman at 55,000 and citing a source and footnoting is a fact. I think that is what Wikimachine is trying to get to and I would support that. We are working on a featured article and it should be our best effort. Lets get a other opinions on this before beginning but I am asking all of us to consider what I have said. 199:

design in all three): able to serve in the infantry support, antitank and reconnaissance roles, pushing light and heavy tanks into more specialized niches, and leading directly to the widely-admired German Panther and the post-war concept of the main battle tank. It was the first tank designed to be robust, reliable, maintainable, and easily mass-produced, and adaptable enough to remain the spearhead of Soviet forces throughout the entire war, and remain useful in some places for the rest of the twentieth century. Tactically and strategically, it worked better than any tank that came before, and many that followed.

167:

Christy suspension, sloped armour, ect... I have no doubt it was the finest thing out there in 1941 hell it was still pretty good in 1945 but we need to be conservative with statements unless its by a historic figure commenting on what they saw at the time. General Kliest's comment comes to mind quickly, but remember that when we make the statement its entirely something else. What I am suggesting is that we that are actually contributing to the article take a good long hard look at this and see if we can remove some of the more glaring examples in the name of improving the article.

1208:(A) part of them was bunkered in the 1960ies and then used stationary. In Austria hundreds of tank turrets of the M-24, M-47, T34, CHARIOTEER and CENTURION types were lifted from battle tanks and mounted on bunker installations for terrain fortifying during "Cold War". The configuration "tank turret on tub with tracks - completly bunkerd" was sthing special, only found in northern Upper Austria and used between the border of state to Czechoslovakia and Danube. - Not only the turret but the whole tank was literally digged in. 239:

don't mind working on an article, I do mind providing entertainment to them. From this point on any edits by them that are not constructive will be reverted. This article has dozens upon dozens of inline citations, lots of sourcing, and is pretty wonderful. It is unfortunate that it made FA status and got exposed to the jackals of wiki who apparently just can't wait to trash an article verbally and every other way. If anyone wants to talk about bad articles you can start with other ones that really need help, but go help don't

501:

M-26/M-47. One of the more interesting factors with the M-4 was that it was being fitted with a 90mm gun in Korea and with a 105mm by Isreal. The question arises in my mind... why in God's name would you send our soldiers to die in an underarmed M-4? The high velocity 105mm was available in WWII and so was the 90mm. Either would have been a cold match for a Panther or Tiger. Someone should have been lined up against the wall on that one.

31: 185:). "Revolutionary design" is not a synonym of "new technology", nor necessarily even "up-to-date technology" (i.e., in this case, the T-34 was successful without a state-of-the-art torsion-bar suspension). In fact, a major factor in the success of this design is that it did not incorporate any fragile or untested new technologies, and new technologies were wisely applied to refining production methods during the war. 477:

rejected the Soviet strategy for tank design. With the decisive results seen in Desert Storm and OIF, I don't think anyone would take exception to the idea that the Soviet strategy of fielding large numbers of "cheap" tanks was inferior to the Western strategy of creating smaller numbers of tanks that could achieve and maintain battlefield superiority over their presumptive enemies of the Cold War.

952:

assume they mean the Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, which does not exist anymore and therefore its military could not still be using T-34s. I will correct this latter issue, as I do not currently have the facilities available to me to help with the former. I am hoping someone might be able to lend a hand if they have better information then I have access to.

665:

issue somewhere in the article in order to insure balance. Somewhere I have an Ordnance Dept. analysis of a T-34 that they tested. The reliability of the drive train was terrible, with the engine lasting only a few hours before it went kaput. I'll try to find it, but don't bet that I do because I can't seem to find anything anymore.

1245:

the better part of 40 hours researching citations for this article to remove from this article. If you can't cite to source and inline cite it then it would have to be removed. This is just the way that that we have as a community have agreed to this and it must be observed. see WP:Citation if you have questions about this.

1229:

one's work derived from. For different points of view - citation, for facts found out - citation. For material not published before (also in a new language) - citation and translation (if possible) and also copies of the original sources (if possible) for others to work with and proof/correct transl..

1244:

Thank you for your interests and I for one would be interested in a short paragraph on its use in Austria. However, there is a big but here, this is an FA featured Article and as such is held to the highest standards of Knowledge (XXG). Michael can speak for himself but I will tell you that I spent

1224:

I've managed to read all the talk pages, especially the discussion about "citation, yes or no".^^ I'd really like to give my 2 cents, if allowed. I remember, when I studied, some lecturer told us on citations sthing like this: "If one can find it in a book on history (general hist. overview) it isn't

1063:

I think Knowledge (XXG)'s GPL licence requires attribution of copied material. But I very much doubt that Baryatinskiy's book will copy Knowledge (XXG). His T-80 book in the same series is very detailed, and will be a good source for our article. I suspect that it was just a webmaster working for

769:

Zaloga is a reliable, verifiable academic publication, which cites its own sources in turn. I haven't seen the Discovery documentary, but in general I don't think soundbites from TV shows would be considered as good quality. If Discovery cites a newer source than Zaloga for its facts, then it would

198:

This was the first tank design which put a large-calibre gun and shell-proof armour on a highly mobile, medium-weight chassis. This was the first tank built with a good-enough balance of firepower, mobility and protection to serve as a "universal" tank (and exceeding any comparable contemporary tank

1236:

May this comment be necessary or not, but I read the discussion pages every time I take a look here in WP, and this struggle for better quality is also found in WPs of other language. So "a third person comment" is stimes usefull - hope You think so, too? ;-) I have to admit I'm no specialist of the

653:

Well big three reminds me of GM, Ford, and Chrylser, and perhaps that is not a turn of phase to use. How about "The three elements of a tank's hard perameters being armor, firepower, and mobility? That might blend in more with that paragraph? As for reliability lets leave that one alone, from what

641:

My apologies. I did not see your comments before making the most recent edit to the article. I have no problem with retaining the "big three" concept. The sentence in question just needs to be written a little better. We should eliminate the words "big three" and replace them with something more

567:

Tironan is quite correct; Knowledge (XXG) has its own style and we don't follow the Chicago style in this case. The only time we should not use lower case is for the first word of a sentence/heading and proper names, e.g. Red Army or Nazi Germany. Any articles or sub-headings which don't follow this

514:

The problem of ground pressure was well-understood by the US Army Ordnance Dept. during WWII. I find it difficult to identify any direct relationship between the T-34's lower ground pressure, and efforts by the US Army Ordnance Dept. to achieve similar results. In fact, designers of both tanks were

348:

I'll say it again, go find something you know and work on that, learn to speak the language before you try to edit it (its not racist its a requirement before you edit) don't wave an OR flag when your one shot was verification and if you ever delete another section out of here I'll see you blocked.

151:

I agree with you in principle but let's be careful of the specifics. Removing OR is fine; removing the published, well-supported statements of armor authors makes no sense at all. We can easily find many citations from armor-specialist publications supporting much of what has been wrongly labeled OR

793:

Having watched the History Channel last month on their Waterloo documentery I assure you that they don't put up a great job. You would have assumed that the British and the French were the only ones on the battlefield when there were in fact 48,000 Prussians fighting like hell on the other side of

669:

Actually the one to the Aberdean Proving Grounds is a link on the page. It lists an air filter that was undersized and acted like a dirt ingester, under tempered armor, untempered cogs in the transmission, they thought the suspension was pure shit, and they traced the transmission back to a design

664:

I think you are dead on with the re-write. Now that you mention it, the "big three" was bothering me for the same reason, and I did not realize it until you said something. Now if we can get DMorpheus to sign off on it, I think we will be OK. It seems to me that we have to include the relibility

500:

Something else that I always found interesting, after the inital shock of contact with the T-34 the much maligned M-4 76mm with HVAP ammo was an exact match in hard factors and much more reliable and workable in soft factors, it eliminated the T-34 as a weapon system in Korea in conjuction with the

476:

For whatever it is worth, I am in agreement with your most recent edits. They certainly seem to be moving in the direction to place the T-34's contributions solidly within the Soviet sphere of influence regarding post-war tank design. This distinction is important since the Western Cold War powers

166:

Yes I agree and if you read my comments I think you will understand just how dim a view I take of ing an article to death and then contributing nothing. I think the things that really jar my teeth are things like Revolutionary Design when it fact it was a distillation of what was already there, ie

552:

Wording In a heading, capitalize only the first letter of the first word and the first letter of any proper nouns, and leave all of the other letters in lowercase. Example: "Rules and regulations", not "Rules and Regulations". Avoid special characters in headings, such as a slash (/), a plus sign

405:

The rules for where and when references should be cited are abundantly clear. You can find them in the Chicago Manual Style, as well as many other similar reference works. So what is the bottom line for this process? When in doubt, cite your reference. If you have multiple citations in a given

238:

If you are really contributing to the article by all means, if you question something’s veracity by all means, if you are here to prove a point and make everyone jump to your demands expect a quick revert by me. I am stating now that my days of long replies to the like of these folks are over. I

1267:

I hate the citation tags too, but since Knowledge (XXG) articles aren't backed by the reputation of any recognized expert, inline references really are needed for a lot more facts than would be cited in the average history book. Finding the references is a tough job which may not jump out at the

1165:

First of all, thanks to all who are engaged. I found that there are some who really do care about this article. Even if English isn't my mother tongue, the text is easily readable to me. That's sthing really important for a project like Knowledge (XXG), but not often kept in mind, especially when

1138:

It's also possible that this is a training exercise. Training photos are rather common, and photos during actual combat rare, so we shouldn't assume this is one, without specific reference to the original source (I mean the description in Soviet archives, not merely a caption from battlefield.ru

1113:

All we can say for sure is that there is a big cloud of smoke and/or dust in the photo. It could be left over shortly after an artillery shell-burst (it doesn't look like the direct burst to me), or it could be offensive or defensive smoke, or simply a grassfire. Heck, it could even be friendly

951:

Is there not any further information that can be shared in this regard? How about the number of T-34/76s and/or T-34/85s originally provided to those nations, as this has been done in many other tank articles. Also, I do not see Croatia or Serbia listed in the users section, only Yugoslavia. I

542:

Am I missing something here? Why is only the first letter of the first word in the section headings capitalized? It is not the beginning of a sentence, and I have never heard of a grammatical convention that would allow for the primary words of any title, the title of a section in this case, to

455:

This turned out better than I thought. I have been exposed to too many trolls of late and expected nothing but the worst. My appologies. I've corrected somethings and added others that haven't been addressed. Comparing gun against gun is a bit weird when its armour penetration versus armour I

429:

This article is seriously out of balance. It would benefit greatly from the introduction of additional information about the negative aspects of the T-34. Just for the record, this sort of balance problem is not uncommon when there is an over dependence on the works of a particular author. For

344:

Once again you are here to argue and I told you how I feel about it. I am not here to argue or debate. Apparently you think that your last paragraph means something in English and again I assure you that it doesn't. You don't know what the concept of OR means or you wouldn't have brought it up

136:

Folks while I may have my problems with Wikimachine on some of the things that were done he has a point and lets make sure we are listening? Please scrub the article of "weasel wording" and unsupportable statements. I was working on the F-86 article and it started with the statement that it was

1228:

I used to understand it this way: Some good reference (books for an overview on the topic) should be inserted at the end, along with the rest of the sources. A scholar (read: Anyone who's inerested) has to quickly find out, if one had used the given sources or not (think of plagiarism) and where

630:

My two cents for what its worth... the big three should be the three design elements and those are firepower, protection, and mobility. The actual elements should not be up for debate its all over the place. IMHO mechcanical reliability would be part of the mobility side of the triangle. I am

587:

Ok things are a bit out of control here and I am going on record as saying I have been among the offenders. Lets get a few things out in the open, 1st and foremost I appologise for any and all comments I have made that were out of line including a few "Moron"s thrown at someone I was frustrated

1102:

Hi Mzajac. I saw the revert on my watch list (yes I still watch the T-34 page) and took a long look at the pic, unless I am missing something that is an artillery ground burst behind the ARV towing that T-34. I don't really care all that much about the title but thought I should point it out.

234:

As I look at the talk section it is being completely dominated by us justifying every edit at the pleasure of a few. I took some of my time and started checking user pages. Apparently these folks are involved in one controversy after another and in arbitration more than not. Nothing is being

1214:

Today there are some T-34 placed as monuments around Austria (like almost everywhere else in Central/Eastern Europe), too. Couldn't tell, if they were only those in service and erected later on, or also some disfunctional, that were left over and never went into service with austrian military.

388:

Why, just because my userpage says I'm Korean I'm fluent in Korean & incoherent in English? I can't speak Korean well, dummy. You can't tell people to edit the "right" Knowledge (XXG)? And yeah... "Once again you are here to argue". ultimate punch right there. Doesn't that make rest of my

518:

Keep in mind that the relatively few engagements involving T-34s and M4s were fought mostly at relatively close ranges. This helped mask the penetration problems of the 76mm HVAP (It was only marginally better than the AP shot round.), and led to a generalized misunderstanding of the tank's

333:

Constructions, constructions, constructions. I've deconstructed them. I'm not sure if you're acting all enlightened here and there, but you don't know anything if you're going to insult debaters because I know that my friends are 10 times more enlightened than you with your narrow mind. Read

494:

My appologies for any over reactions on my part. We have been drug through the mud here by a few less than helpful editors. Parts of this article did go over the top something I alluded to in 2 sections up. I strongly doubt that the T-34 affected MBT developement in Western armies beyond

1232:

Just feel there is no reason for the "citation needed" tag over and over again - if sone *is* interested, the Knowledge (XXG) (WP) should be helpfull (like any encyclopedia), but in no way the only/primary reference. This doesn't exclude WP as a hint, a point to start own recherche.

556:

Given that this is how they want it I think we need to follow this. Personally I am more comfortable with the other way but I think we need to follow Wiki guidelines on this. Please read the section and the stance on reversion wars over style before doing any more of this please.

794:

the same field at the same time. Their jobs is to entertain the largest audience not be completely accurate. There have been arguments on the F-4 article also, only to show large errors. As Michael can attest I spent large amounts of time verifying this arcticle, it is correct.

363:

Look, this has degenerated into personal attacks and wikilawyering. As long as its confined to the talk page it is merely annoying. If wikimachine continues with nonsensical edits to the article he will be reported. If he contributes something productive, great.

966:

used in USSR, Yugoslavia, Czechoslovakia, and 37 other existing and defunct countries since 1941, in 27 of them as late as 1996. If someone finds a source with more recent comprehensive figures, then we can incorporate that information into this

815:

to the list of operators. The rows of flags make an incomprehensible quilt of colour, especially since many of them have white fields and read as two or three colour stripes instead of a single flag. It just looks like useless decoration to

1189:

In Upper Austria there were 76 fixed Installations, of which were 19 equipped with T-34-Tanks. On Tuesday the last was released from its bunker constructed of 60 cm heavy ferro-concrete walls and started on a journey to its Restoration.

615:

Please be aware that personal attack will lead to a quick block by the admins. One of our editors found this out the hard way. Keep tempers in check and any heat directed towards the subject matter and not the person behind it.

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I will do my best not to edit a section in such a way that it nullifies the corresponding citation. If I should fall into this error, I trust that you or DMorpheus will make inform me, and help make the necessary correction.

430:

example, testing and evaluation of a T-34 by the US Army Ordnance Dept. exposed some very serious problems with the tank. This type of information should be included in the article to bring it back into balance.

931:

1985-1986 and 1998-99 editions and adds no further information. And without looking at the source, for all we know the Military Balance citation might be based on the 1996 Zaloga book that we already cite.

515:

simply reacting to the conditions imposed by the European battlefield, and the Russian's worked out the solution while the American's were still getting the M4 ready for battle in the sands of N. Africa.

832:

I disagree. I restored the flag templates because I think they are relevant and helpful for the person reading the article. And if someone can't distinguish the flags than he/she can look at the names.

528:

It the upgunned M-4 may not have made it to Korea, I read that referrence years ago with looking at upgrades for the M-4. Like most my age, my reliance on my memory far exceeds my capcity LOL.

243:

and leave. Don't talk about how bad an article is work on it or better yet build concensus on it and do it together! I am sick unto death of the negative life sucking non-productive folks.

334:

Fasching. Construction of the ultimate, T Truth allows for calculation dynamics in which "the other" (whom you've constructed) can be oppressed. A classic example right here. (

600:

Nothing here is ruled by dicate and perhaps now you understand why. I would prefer that in the future we make proposed changes visable here for comment before going public.

1178:

Sthing interesting to contribute for the article? Reports on reuse of old tanks/tank components after active service. (Extracted and transl. by me, my remarks in -brackets):

1193:

It shall be presented in the Bunkermuseum to the general public from next spring on . After 1955 the T-34 battle tank was a jump start help of the Soviet Union for the

654:

I read the T-34 was no gem in that department and the best way to kill a German panzer column was to make it march a 100 miles. I just flat don't want to get into that.

591:

2nd No one "owns" an article here not me and not anyone else. If you don't like a change discuss it here don't get into a revert war and the cursing has got to stop.

1268:

reader, but is the basis for an article's quality. And sometimes it leads directly to surprising facts being added, or interesting "facts" being deleted. Regards.

1064:

the publisher's site who grabbed the text because he wasn't provided anything from the author or editor, perhaps not being aware of the licensing requirement.

594:

3rd We have real vandals fixing our page for us and we need to be able to revert when that arises. Something that 2 of you are in danger of losing right now.

511:

No need to apologize. My editorial comments are sometimes more curt or critical than they should be, and this quite naturally elicits a strong reaction.

543:

begin with a lowercase letter. A quick look at "The Chicago Manual of Style" provides not relief in this matter, so is this just a case of bad grammar?

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One last thought, getting into online arguements is like winning the Special Olympics, no matter how great you do every still sees a short bus kid...

710:

V-2 brings a V-twin engine to mind. That is either a mistake, or needs an entry explaining the difference in V12. Lets get a specialist on that.

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I'm quite sure that there has been only one editor who's been criticizing this article. If you want to talk to me, talk. Don't be a sissy. (

986:

I agree, unless you have reference and can cite to the source please do not insert it. That is the difference between opinion and fact.

456:

think. Please be careful if you don't have the source material and you make changes the citation may no longer apply. I've added some

754:. Mzajac, is your source up to date? I really don't think that discovery will put false informations in their documentaries. Best, -- 717: 606:

Lets treat each other like we all are concerned about the quality of the article (I really do think we all are) and with respect.

1004: 1258:

Thanks for the input, Andi. The bunkered Austrian T-34s are interesting and unique, and will be a good addition to the article.

1042:

Well we are an open source so I guess we can't say anything if they copied the entire thing verbatim but sheesh is that cheesy.

295:

Both of these folks are then hiding under the OR umbrella even if one of them apparently doesn't understand what it really means

152:

in this article. Some of them are already cited here. It is misleading and unproductive to fact-tag every line of the article.

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I've heard of foreigners who ace the SAT & do better than the native English speakers. Is this a racist comment or what?

189:

means exactly a distillation and configuration of what was there. The whole point is that the T-34 excelled in its design,

38: 1007:. Anything sound familiar? I hope that text was chosen by the publisher, and not provided by the book's author. 771: 962:

Please don't change the information in contradiction to the cited source. As the article clearly says, the T-34

1166:

some try to improve the "quality" of a topic. And the "citation needed" thing belongs to this in some way, too.

1237:

tank weapon in any way, so I wouldn't dare to tag an article I'm not in charge of... Sorry for the long text.

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Of course I do. You can't use a mix of sources to shape your own thesis. That includes using primary sources.

732:

The *name* of the engine is "V-2". The *configuration* of the engine is Vee with 12 cylinders, thus a V-12.

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worth citing.", meaning, if it has to/should have to be general knowledge, then citing is not worth it.

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statements irrelevant. I don't care about your squabbling. I'm going to fix this article as I see fit. (

953: 643: 520: 484: 431: 407: 862: 84: 72: 67: 59: 920:—the link returns a "403 forbidden" server error for me, but the text is still in Google's cache. 888: 913:" means the same as "was still in service in 1996", but your wording is more straightforward. 747: 573: 274: 1203: 1274: 1145: 1125: 1070: 1013: 973: 937: 838: 822: 780: 390: 335: 254: 210: 121: 1173:

http://forum.panzer-archiv.de/viewtopic.php?t=3981&sid=f2f3ca1d38e65566d72f94f3ed51fc8c

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these folks are involved in one controversy after another and in arbitration more than not

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asking again don't get into revert wars discuss and reach agreement and lets move on.

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I agree and that was my last statement to wikimachine, sorry if I ever got personal.

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This archive page covers approximately the dates between 2007-03-07 and 2007-10-26.

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I don't know if the captions beneath the engine and some lines in the text are ok:

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Besides this sort of thing works perfectly fine in other articles about AFVs. -

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If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the

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Gotta agree wityh Mzajac here. It adds no information, just clutter. Regards,

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Just in case these were directed at me, let me have a chance to answer them.

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Some thoughts on the discussion about citations (don't want to restart it):

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fire, so we shouldn't write "under enemy fire" without real justification.

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One of them I have extreme doubts even has English as a primary language

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These are all a result of good design, and not of any new technologies.

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paragraph, and don't like the clutter, simply group them at the end.

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so that we are all providing one of his primary forms of entertainment

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Hey I am proud of you guys, you worked it out and no cussing either!

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Keep up Your work, and greetings, Andi 15:24, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

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DO NOT EDIT OR POST REPLIES TO THIS PAGE. THIS PAGE IS AN ARCHIVE.

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be worth taking a look at—if it doesn't cite any, then it is not

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http://en.wikipedia.org/V12_%28engine%29#Tanks_and_other_AFVs

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Thank you all, wonderful points and I withdraw my objection

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http://www.bunkermuseum.at/aktuell/071009_t34of_ausbau.php

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Yay revert wars! Admins are going to be happy about that.

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I would hope that everyone understands that by now.

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I am done responding to you go debate someone else.

546:In an effort to stop this revert thing this from 1003:Read over the description of this upcoming book: 916:I don't know if there's much point in citing the 701:First of all, a link to out own Knowledge (XXG): 746:Regarding the speed and range, I just watched a 8: 113:Knowledge (XXG):How to archive a talk page 44:Do not edit the contents of this page. 1093:File:Sovietic T34 battle of kursk.jpg 7: 1158:T-34 in service and reuse in Austria 883:I concur with DMorpheus and Maajac 285:are some of my major contributions. 24: 1182:http://ooe.orf.at/stories/227392/ 1175:(Some images of austrian T-34s.) 1169:Some links for Your convenience: 1139:where the photo was downloaded). 764:Sorry about the delay responding. 568:will be changed in the long run. 303:So... all debaters are like this? 1005:Russian Armour: T-34 Medium Tank 29: 466:to remind me to cite tomorrow. 315:I was born on the year of the 1: 439:You would be speaking of the 323:, and my birth dream was the 1250:16:31, 25 October 2007 (UTC) 1108:17:43, 12 October 2007 (UTC) 1047:23:55, 12 October 2007 (UTC) 107:Please add new archivals to 813:undid the addition of flags 307:expect a quick revert by me 1297: 1030:18:43, 2 August 2007 (UTC) 893:21:03, 16 April 2008 (UTC) 867:19:57, 16 April 2008 (UTC) 847:08:45, 16 April 2008 (UTC) 737:14:37, 23 April 2007 (UTC) 726:09:06, 23 April 2007 (UTC) 685:23:09, 21 March 2007 (UTC) 675:15:57, 21 March 2007 (UTC) 659:23:00, 20 March 2007 (UTC) 647:22:14, 20 March 2007 (UTC) 636:15:32, 20 March 2007 (UTC) 621:15:53, 14 March 2007 (UTC) 611:12:58, 14 March 2007 (UTC) 577:14:37, 14 March 2007 (UTC) 562:10:15, 14 March 2007 (UTC) 533:17:19, 13 March 2007 (UTC) 524:00:28, 13 March 2007 (UTC) 506:17:28, 12 March 2007 (UTC) 488:16:04, 12 March 2007 (UTC) 471:07:31, 12 March 2007 (UTC) 446:07:47, 12 March 2007 (UTC) 435:16:11, 11 March 2007 (UTC) 420:07:33, 12 March 2007 (UTC) 411:00:33, 11 March 2007 (UTC) 394:02:11, 10 March 2007 (UTC) 181:with technology (see also 1186:"76 fixed Installations: 383:15:21, 9 March 2007 (UTC) 369:15:18, 9 March 2007 (UTC) 354:06:08, 9 March 2007 (UTC) 339:01:21, 9 March 2007 (UTC) 258:19:11, 8 March 2007 (UTC) 248:17:35, 8 March 2007 (UTC) 225:20:44, 9 March 2007 (UTC) 172:21:08, 7 March 2007 (UTC) 157:18:52, 7 March 2007 (UTC) 142:17:45, 7 March 2007 (UTC) 991:17:16, 7 July 2007 (UTC) 957:18:48, 6 July 2007 (UTC) 807:Dozens of national flags 799:23:25, 2 June 2007 (UTC) 759:20:06, 15 May 2007 (UTC) 345:when it didn't apply. 1097: 750:documentary about the 1096: 923:The report cites the 716:comment was added by 42:of past discussions. 100:Post replies to the 1162:Hello to all here! 109:Talk:T-34/Archive06 1278:2007-10-26 01:35 Z 1149:2007-10-12 18:04 Z 1129:2007-10-12 17:56 Z 1098: 1074:2007-10-15 21:08 Z 1017:2007-08-02 16:41 Z 977:2007-07-07 00:13 Z 941:2007-06-28 20:50 Z 826:2007-06-17 17:09 Z 784:2007-06-02 17:04 Z 401:REFERENCE CITATION 214:2007-03-09 19:46 Z 193:in its technology. 125:2008-09-30 15:22 z 1279: 1150: 1130: 1087:T-34 towed by ARV 1075: 1018: 999:Baryatinskiy book 978: 947:Operators Listing 942: 827: 785: 748:Discovery Channel 729: 275:T-50 Golden Eagle 215: 126: 90: 89: 54: 53: 48:current talk page 1288: 1277: 1148: 1128: 1094: 1073: 1016: 976: 940: 929:Military Balance 825: 783: 756:Eurocopter tigre 711: 690:Tank power plant 465: 459: 213: 124: 81: 56: 55: 33: 32: 26: 1296: 1295: 1291: 1290: 1289: 1287: 1286: 1285: 1160: 1092: 1089: 1001: 949: 911:as late as 1996 907: 905:As late as 1996 809: 744: 712:—The preceding 692: 628: 585: 583:Wiki Citzenship 540: 463: 457: 453: 427: 425:LACK OF BALANCE 403: 313:jackals of wiki 232: 134: 77: 30: 22: 21: 20: 12: 11: 5: 1294: 1292: 1284: 1283: 1282: 1281: 1262: 1261: 1260: 1259: 1253: 1252: 1159: 1156: 1155: 1154: 1153: 1152: 1133: 1132: 1116: 1115: 1088: 1085: 1084: 1083: 1082: 1081: 1080: 1079: 1078: 1077: 1054: 1053: 1052: 1051: 1050: 1049: 1035: 1034: 1033: 1032: 1000: 997: 996: 995: 994: 993: 981: 980: 948: 945: 906: 903: 902: 901: 900: 899: 898: 897: 896: 895: 874: 873: 872: 871: 870: 869: 850: 849: 834: 833: 808: 805: 804: 803: 802: 801: 788: 787: 766: 765: 743: 740: 700: 691: 688: 679: 667: 666: 652: 650: 649: 627: 624: 584: 581: 580: 579: 539: 538:Capitalization 536: 509: 508: 497: 496: 491: 490: 479: 478: 452: 449: 426: 423: 402: 399: 398: 397: 376: 375: 374: 373: 372: 371: 331: 330: 329: 328: 321:Chinese zodiac 310: 304: 298: 292: 286: 261: 231: 228: 218: 217: 201: 200: 195: 194: 183:design methods 177:Don't confuse 164: 163: 162: 161: 160: 159: 133: 132:Lets make sure 130: 129: 115:.) Thank you. 102:main talk page 88: 87: 82: 75: 70: 65: 62: 52: 51: 34: 23: 15: 14: 13: 10: 9: 6: 4: 3: 2: 1293: 1280: 1276: 1273: 1266: 1265: 1264: 1263: 1257: 1256: 1255: 1254: 1251: 1248: 1243: 1242: 1241: 1238: 1234: 1230: 1226: 1222: 1219: 1216: 1212: 1209: 1206: 1205: 1201: 1198: 1196: 1191: 1187: 1184: 1183: 1179: 1176: 1174: 1170: 1167: 1163: 1157: 1151: 1147: 1144: 1137: 1136: 1135: 1134: 1131: 1127: 1124: 1118: 1117: 1112: 1111: 1110: 1109: 1106: 1100: 1095: 1086: 1076: 1072: 1069: 1062: 1061: 1060: 1059: 1058: 1057: 1056: 1055: 1048: 1045: 1041: 1040: 1039: 1038: 1037: 1036: 1031: 1028: 1024: 1023: 1022: 1021: 1020: 1019: 1015: 1012: 1006: 998: 992: 989: 985: 984: 983: 982: 979: 975: 972: 965: 961: 960: 959: 958: 955: 946: 944: 943: 939: 936: 930: 926: 922: 919: 914: 912: 904: 894: 890: 886: 882: 881: 880: 879: 878: 877: 876: 875: 868: 864: 860: 856: 855: 854: 853: 852: 851: 848: 844: 840: 836: 835: 831: 830: 829: 828: 824: 821: 814: 806: 800: 797: 792: 791: 790: 789: 786: 782: 779: 773: 768: 767: 763: 762: 761: 760: 757: 753: 749: 741: 739: 738: 735: 730: 727: 723: 719: 715: 708: 707:V-12 or V-2? 705: 704: 698: 695: 689: 687: 686: 683: 677: 676: 673: 663: 662: 661: 660: 657: 648: 645: 640: 639: 638: 637: 634: 625: 623: 622: 619: 613: 612: 609: 604: 601: 598: 597: 592: 589: 582: 578: 575: 571: 566: 565: 564: 563: 560: 554: 550: 549: 544: 537: 535: 534: 531: 526: 525: 522: 516: 512: 507: 504: 499: 498: 493: 492: 489: 486: 481: 480: 475: 474: 473: 472: 469: 462: 450: 448: 447: 444: 440: 437: 436: 433: 424: 422: 421: 418: 413: 412: 409: 400: 395: 392: 387: 386: 385: 384: 381: 370: 367: 362: 361: 360: 359: 358: 357: 356: 355: 352: 346: 342: 340: 337: 326: 322: 318: 314: 311: 308: 305: 302: 299: 296: 293: 290: 287: 284: 280: 276: 272: 268: 265: 264: 262: 259: 256: 252: 251: 250: 249: 246: 242: 236: 229: 227: 226: 223: 216: 212: 209: 203: 202: 197: 196: 192: 188: 184: 180: 176: 175: 174: 173: 170: 158: 155: 150: 149: 148: 147: 146: 145: 144: 143: 140: 131: 128: 127: 123: 120: 114: 110: 105: 103: 98: 95: 94: 86: 83: 80: 76: 74: 71: 69: 66: 63: 61: 58: 57: 49: 45: 41: 40: 35: 28: 27: 19: 1269: 1239: 1235: 1231: 1227: 1223: 1220: 1217: 1213: 1210: 1207: 1202: 1199: 1192: 1188: 1185: 1180: 1177: 1171: 1168: 1164: 1161: 1140: 1120: 1101: 1099: 1065: 1008: 1002: 968: 963: 950: 932: 928: 918:fas.org link 915: 908: 817: 810: 775: 745: 731: 709: 706: 699: 696: 693: 678: 668: 651: 629: 614: 605: 602: 599: 593: 590: 586: 555: 551: 545: 541: 527: 517: 513: 510: 454: 438: 428: 414: 404: 377: 347: 343: 332: 312: 306: 300: 294: 288: 266: 237: 233: 219: 205: 190: 186: 165: 135: 116: 106: 99: 96: 92: 91: 78: 43: 37: 954:SAWGunner89 909:Kingboyk, " 839:SuperTank17 718:83.23.10.48 644:14thArmored 521:14thArmored 485:14thArmored 432:14thArmored 408:14thArmored 391:Wikimachine 336:Wikimachine 271:Ahn Eak-tai 255:Wikimachine 36:This is an 1195:Bundesheer 772:verifiable 269:Not true. 1119:Regards. 1027:DMorpheus 967:article. 859:DMorpheus 734:DMorpheus 366:DMorpheus 154:DMorpheus 85:Archive 6 79:Archive 5 73:Archive 4 68:Archive 3 60:Archive 1 18:Talk:T-34 1247:Tirronan 1105:Tirronan 1044:Tirronan 988:Tirronan 885:Tirronan 796:Tirronan 714:unsigned 682:Tirronan 672:Tirronan 656:Tirronan 633:Tirronan 618:Tirronan 608:Tirronan 559:Tirronan 530:Tirronan 503:Tirronan 468:Tirronan 443:Tirronan 417:Tirronan 380:Tirronan 351:Tirronan 283:ThinkPad 279:Mini 4WD 245:Tirronan 222:Tirronan 169:Tirronan 139:Tirronan 1272:Michael 1143:Michael 1123:Michael 1068:Michael 1011:Michael 971:Michael 935:Michael 820:Michael 778:Michael 742:Infobox 626:Reverts 451:Changes 319:on the 241:mandate 208:Michael 119:Michael 111:. (See 39:archive 596:WP:CIV 588:with. 548:WP:MOS 281:, and 230:Gadfly 187:Design 179:design 1025:Wow. 570:Grant 325:Tiger 16:< 925:IISS 889:talk 863:talk 843:talk 816:me. 752:T-34 722:talk 574:Talk 461:Fact 317:Goat 1218:-- 1211:-- 1200:-- 964:was 927:'s 191:not 1275:Z. 1146:Z. 1126:Z. 1071:Z. 1014:Z. 974:Z. 938:Z. 891:) 865:) 845:) 823:Z. 811:I 781:Z. 774:. 724:) 572:| 464:}} 458:{{ 341:) 277:, 273:, 211:Z. 122:Z. 64:← 1270:— 1141:— 1121:— 1066:— 1009:— 969:— 933:— 887:( 861:( 841:( 818:— 776:— 728:. 720:( 396:) 327:. 260:) 206:— 117:— 50:.

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