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positive to
Tolkien — is calm and nuanced, making use of extensive quotations from LotR, and arguing clearly and objectively for the points he makes. Neither is it true, as the article claims, that Raffel argues “that Tolkien wrote so simply, without the sorts of effect to be expected in a novel.” (In fact, it is hard to understand what this sentence means.) Raffel instead argues convincingly that Tolkien’s story is “a magnificent performance, full of charm, excitement, and affection, but it is not — at least as I am here using the term — literature.” (p. 218) As a result, the impression this Knowledge article gives of Raffel’s article is misleading and suggests that the writer of the Knowledge article has either misunderstood Raffel’s article or not read it at all. I am not acquainted with much of the other literature the article discusses, but when the Knowledge article claims that Catharine R. Stimpson “supported her argument by _inventing_ what she asserted were Tolkienistic sentences” (my emphasis), this gives me a bad feeling about the whole article.
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not necessarily Old
English to me: but we can't reason like that ourselves, we need to go with what the scholars have written. Thinking about why you may have asked about Old English, it seems to me on re-reading the article that you have have read the Shakespeare section and asked where's the OE section... but actually, I'm not convinced that we should even mention Shakespeare here, as Drout was straying into influence, not style as such, just there: so I've removed it: it's discussed elsewhere (not least
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896:, I agree that more could be said about Anglo-Saxon; not as an influence, but as a vocabulary choice made by Tolkien, and hence part of his prose style. I was aware as a young teenager that the "Flammifer" of Westernesse stood out to me as Latinate within Tolkien's normal vocabulary (I also thought the 'louver' in Meduseld was strange, probably thinking of the
959:
OK, it seems to me that we need to increase the article's coverage of "old" diction. It currently has a section "Ancient clashing with modern" which explains
Tolkien's use of archaic style for characters such as Elrond and GlĂłin, contrasting with modern style for the hobbits and Saruman. I'll extend
870:
looks at the many interlocking uses of Old
English and other contemporary materials that Tolkien wove into his Middle-earth writings. I certainly wouldn't want to try to put all of it into this intentionally rather specialised article. On the 'Hador' sentence, it sounds a little archaic in style but
792:
On your first question, what "other stuff exists" has no relevance here; each article must cover its own topic, as researched by scholars, critics, or writers of other sorts. That leads neatly to the answer to your second question, to which the answer is no, everything here is a summary of what the
398:
and this article often call it "prose style". This could be seen as excluding poetry, but the poetry has been discussed in relation to the prose style and even "Tolkien's writing style" or "Tolkien's language style" would be an improvement. (Alternately, since poetry is already covered in another
928:
I'll have a think about it and come back on the main question. Walker indeed elides a lot of years when talking about archaisms; I'll note that "Old
English" (aka Anglo-Saxon) is not the same as old/archaic English, which could mean Chaucer's language, or Shakespeare's, or almost anything else.
815:
Hi all. I'm not usually an editor, but I read this article and was quite surprised by the lack of references to
Tolkien's deep understanding of OE. Particularly in reference to the quote beginning with "Hador", which is stylistically consistent with the introductions of lords and leaders in the
731:
Burton Raffel’s 1968 article in “Tolkien and the
Critics” is referred to several times in this article. Since I reread Raffel’s article today I have quite a clear picture of the article and its argument. It is thus NOT true that Raffel “attacks” Tolkien’s style. In fact, his discussion — mostly
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On Raffel, we certainly agree that he wrote that LoTR was "not literature"; but I'm not sure that contributes anything useful to the discussion, so I've removed the sentence. On
Stimpson, the next paragraph describes Rosebury's point-by-point rebuttal of her claims, which are not editorial
827:
I will research to source these ideas, but the lack of OE in this article as it currently stands is glaring given his well-documented relationship with that language. Does anyone else share this opinion or can more readily source these connections to OE? Thanks!
823:
Additionally, his alliterative style is consistent with the common style of OE poetry. Treebeard's lament of the entwives comes to mind as an example of
Tolkien's prose influenced by both the alliterative and stress patterns of OE poetry.
819:
Discussions of
Tolkien's manipulation of syntax should also reflect this OE understanding OE has a characteristically more free word order than Modern English. Tolkien's freer word order is also stylistically consistent with of OE.
900:- more fool me, as louver 'probably' has a Germanic root, says the SOED). I have yet to find a solid treatment of this - Walker brushes past it when discussing Tolkien's archaisms (pp153-4). Possibly the
394:– I think it is better to title the article what it's actually about. Which is not Tolkien's fashion sense or his taste in architecture, or even many of the style elements in his books. In fact, both
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is alliterative, some of it very carefully in Old English metre, style, and subject matter: but an article on prose probably shouldn't say much on poetry, really. More broadly,
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Many thanks for your thoughts. This article focuses on style, and the scholars who've written specifically about style have looked at the effect rather than
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That's fine, but please DO NOT MOVE until the GAN process is COMPLETE, as a renaming "mucks up" (spelling may not be right) the rather dim-witted bot.
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Done. I've extended "Ancient clashing with modern" and added a new section "Incorporating the archaic, even Old English". Hope you guys all like it.
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Tolkien got the "louvre" from William Morris's "luffer"; it's via French, whether or no there's anything Germanic aback of it. It's discussed at
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Okay well then as long as the article scope is intentionally limited to just his prose style, then I guess I'm fine with the proposed title too.
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that generally fictional articles should be written in present tense, all Tolkien legendarium-related articles that cover in-universe material
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Well, as a week has passed, we seem to agree, and the GAN has closed, we're basically ready for someone to close this and move the article.
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Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a
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than "archaic" – for the Rohirrim, and I'll mention their use, too, of a few actual Old English ("Anglo-Saxon") words into the bargain.
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He did, but the article and the sources are about the prose that he wrote, so it'd make no sense to include the poetry in the title.
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As no other Tolkien has created any such things, the consistency would be best achieved by removing the stray initials really.
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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this proposal, and Chiswick Chap's suggestion to harmonize the titles of the related articles by removing the "J.R.R.". -
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Does any other author on Knowledge have such a detailed discussion of his/her prose style? It seems excessive.
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after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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It also seems to me that there is quite a bit of “original research” in this article.
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for suggestions and ideas on how you can improve this and other articles.
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article, this one could focus on prose strictly speaking). (
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for more information about this and other article standards.
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On 29 December 2021, it was proposed that this article be
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52:. If you can improve it further,
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