Talk:The Holocaust/Archive 33

212:"After the invasion of Poland, the Germans set up a "Jewish reservation" in the Lublin district of the General Government territory governed by Frank. The initiative was known as the Nisko Plan. Adolf Eichmann was assigned the task of removing all Jews from Germany, Austria, and the Protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia to this reservation. The first Jews were sent there in October 1939. Although 80,000 Jews were initially planned by Müller to be removed, Eichmann managed to sent only 4,700 Jews to Nisko from Vienna, Katowice, Ostrawa, and Stettin until March 1940. In late March, Göring put the Nisko Plan on hold, and it was abandoned completely in April. By mid-October however, it was revived by Himmler as the Nahplan 1 followed by Nahplan 2 (short-term plans), due to mass influx of Germanic settlers into the Warthegau area, requiring farms. The resettlement action continued until January 1941 under Odilo Globocnik. By that time 95,000 Jews were already concentrated in the area; (78,000 before the end of February 1940). They were imprisoned in the newly-built labour camps of the Lublin-Lipowa and Majdanek camp complex, but the idea of deporting further 400,000, or 600,000 Jews to Lublin, has failed." is what you added. But.. the detail on the Germans wanting the farms, the exact cities that the 4700 came from, the fact that 78,000 arrived before March 1940, the names of the two sub-plans, the fact that the camps were newly built, which camps, and the fact that 400,000 to 600,000 were further planned but did not get expelled is certainly way too much detail for a top level article. And that's a quick look. This information would certainly be useful in the Nisko article itself - if its not already there... 408:

between 1 and 17 December there were more than 87,000 people deported from the Warthgau into the General Government, 'politically incriminated Poles, Jews, Polish intelligentsia, criminal and asocial elements'." Later on page 159 "Between the failure of the Nisko plan in October 1939 and the provisional end of deportations in March 1940, a total of about 128,000 people had been deported from the Warthegau into the General Government under the aegis of teh first short-term plan and the intermediate plan, and this figure includes a few tens of thousands of Jews. As we have seen, the extent and modalities of these 'resettlements' were affected above all by the ethnic German 'returning settlers'." He then discusses "The second short-term plan was to be realized, however, albeit in a modified version. Between 1 April 1940 and 20 January 1941 130,000 Poles and 3,500 Jews from the Warthegau were to be transported into the General Government." It's not clear if this actually occurred or if Longerich is just writing very convoluted, because the wording of that sentence appears to imply that it was planned but he never comes out and says it happened.

2258:

to judge the Holocaust now ... and very few historians would place Ribbentrop in the top tier of the people responsible for the Holocaust. If we're going to discuss in the lead the crimimal proceedings - we shouldn't give undue weight to peripheral events - the execution of people responsible should most likely begin with Rudolf Hoess at Auschwitz, the Einstzgruppen trials, and the various doctors trials. Of those judged at Nuremburg (at the first major trial at least), historians now would consider Speer much more culpable in the Holocaust - he used concentration camp labor extensively and then tried to cover up his involvement after the war. Of the non-Germans executed - most of them were executed for other crimes as well as for their Holocaust efforts - and their trials were definitely also tinged with problems. The first Nuremburg trial was very little concerned with the Holocaust... it dealt mostly with war crimes and conspiracy to commit "crimes against the peace". The fact that Hoess testified at the first Nuremburg trial but was not a defendant shows how much that trial dealt with Holocaust crimes.

343:

260 he says "The abortive Nisko venture..." where he winds up talking about the deportations in 1939 and 1940. Reading further, it appears that some of the confusion stems from the fact that deportations of Poles to the same area were also taking place. Cesarani p. 261 says that in early December 87,000 Poles (including 10,000 Jews) were deported to the Lublin area but clearly Cesarani sees this as a distinct project from the Nisko project - which was limited to specifically the Nisko area. Page 262 of Cesarani he says that there was an interim plan (part of Nahplan 2) to deport 40,000 Poles to the General Government during Feb and March 1940, but "only a very small proportion were Jews". And then on page 263 "Nahplan 2 was resurrected in March 1940 and continued in fits and starts until January 1941, by which time 143 transports had carried 133,508 Poles to the General Government. Only three trains were used to deport Polish Jews, chiefly from Posen. The majority of Jews in the incorporated territories ended up staying where they were." ... more in a bit after I take the dog to the groomers.

2631:(ed. Michael Berenbaum and Abraham J. Peck) are chapters on "The Michling, the Judischversippte, and the Gypsies", "Slapping up Spastics" (the handicapped), homosexuals, and "the Black experience during the Holocaust". In the introduction to Part 6 in that work "Multiple Voices: Ideology, exclusion, and coercion", the editors say "One of the most divisive and persistent academic debates over the past fifteen yeras has centered around the question of who the victims of the Holocaust were. Is the word "Holocaust" to be confied solely to what the Nazis termed the "Final Solution of the Jewish problem", the systematic, state-sponsored execution of the Jews, or does the HOlocaust encompass a mosaic of Nazi victims - Soviet prisoners of war; Jehovah's Witnesses; mentally retarded, physically handicapped, or emotionally disturbed Germans; Roma and Sinti; German male homosexuals; trade unionists; political dissidents; and outspoken clergymen." (the introduction is from 1998 - so the 15 years covers 1983-1998). 443:

to construct a transit camp while others were chased eastward into the Lublin District. In Eichmann's words, he did this "to collect experiences, in order ... to be able to carry out evacuations of much greater numbers". However, Himmler quickly closed down Eichmann's Nisko experiment in order to concentrate on expelling Poles and Jews from the Warthegau and thus to make room for repatriated Baltic Germans. The attempt to clear the "incorporated" territories of all Poles and Jews foundered on the growing opposition of Hans Frank and Hermann Goring to the logistical difficulties and economic consequences of Himmler's attempted demographic revolution in the midst of an unfinished war. By the spring of 1940, the expulsion of both Poles and Jews had been sharply scaled back, and Hitler disowned the plan for a Jewish reservation in the Lublin District." I also checked Richard Lukas'

2627:(3rd ed.) (pp. 3-4) includes the Jews and handicapped and Roma first, and then later says ""At the same time, Nazi Germany persecuted, incarcerated, massacred, worked to death, and deliberately starved millions of people in the occupied territories to the east - non-Jewish Poles, especially those in leadership positions; Soviet prisoners of war, accused partisans and people in large cities. Back home the regime attacked German Communists, gay men, Jehova's Witnesses, Afro-Germans, and other people deemed unwanted in Hiter's "new order." Whether or not one considers members of any or all of these groups to belong under the label "victims of the Holocaust," their fates were entwined in significant ways with that of the Jews targeted and murdered...This book seeks to identify and explore connections between and among victim groups..." Included in 112:(p. 232) also says ""Only 4,700 Jews were deported to the Lublin area, all in October 1939. The camp at Nisko remained in eistence until the entire plan was crapped in April 1940." We obviously have a difference between two secondary sources (Cesarani and Longrich) and a tertiary (Columbia) on one side and one tertiary on the other (the 2013 edition of the Holocaust Encyclopedia). I have an earlier edition of the Encyclopedia - since the Google link isn't working for me to verify the information - would it be possible to have the title of the entry it's from? And can we conform the citations to the style already in use in the article - I went to a great deal of effort to standardize the references - it is a bit annoying to have a a new style introduced. 404:

Page 153 "On 20 October the RSHA issued an order banning the transports; Eichmann was permitted only one train from Ostrava, 'in order to preserve the prestige of the local state police'." and later on the page "Despite the abrupt end of hte Nisko campaign, the RSHA steadfastly stuck to its plans for deporting Jews into the district of Lublin." and again later "As the history of the Nisko campaign shows, the organs..." where Longerich wraps up the actual Nisko plan. I think a good solution would be to drop the "nisko plan" from the heading here in this article - and make the "main" article go direct to the Lublin reservation page rather than through a redirect to the Nisko plan redirect page.

921:"... functionalists, who maintain that Hitler was envisaging an expulsion of Jews into Russia even as late as the Summer or Fall of 1941, have taken the seriousness of these resettlement schemes for granted. But they have not examined whether the frustrations and failures of these schemes might not have led the Nazis in general and Hitler in particular to take decisions for mass murder earlier than the military failure of late 1941. Nor have they sought to analyze what the shaping of Nazi Jewish policy in this interim period indicates about the key role of Hitler and the manner in which he made decisions setting the parameters within which the Jewish question was to be solved." 2440: 285:"...the scrapping of the Lublin Reservation plan did not mean deportations of Jews to the East had ceased. By the summer of 1940, according to a Warsaw Jewish Community report, Globocknik had 30 work camps. This number rose to 51 by early 1941, with the largest extablished in July 1940 at Belzec, where 30,000 or so Jews referred to earlier were forcibly put to work digging anti-tank ditches on what Globocnik saw as an Eastern Wall, at task not too different from those undertaken around Nisko/Zarzecze only a few months earlier... The Belzec site became, in 1942, the Belzec killing center." 366: 209:

article over to using {{sfn}} ... the only references that don't use that are single use citations or citations I'm still trying to verify by getting the sources. (As for Google books - it is notorious for not displaying the same for everyone. And a snippet view (whcih is what those are showing) is not really helpful to verify as it leaves context out.) As for the weight... we do need to mention the Nisko scheme, but compare the amount of coverage it gets in Cesarani to the total number of pages. Or what the plan gets in Longerich.

1604: 367:

https://www.google.ca/search?safe=off&hl=en&tbm=bks&q=%22a+transport+1%2C200+Jews+from+Pomerania+%E2%80%94+left+in+early+February.+Between+these+two+dates+an+estimated+78%2C000+Jews+were+deported+to+the+reservation.%22&oq=%22a+transport+1%2C200+Jews+from+Pomerania+%E2%80%94+left+in+early+February.+Between+these+two+dates+an+estimated+78%2C000+Jews+were+deported+to+the+reservation.%22&gs_l=psy-ab.12...225890.225890.0.229074.1.1.0.0.0.0.0.0..0.0....0...1.1.64.psy-ab..1.0.0.mm1bEdP1Ezg

4133:"If a word with a definite article has a different meaning with respect to the same word without the article, the word with article can be used as the name of a Knowledge article about that meaning, and the word without article can be used as the name of a separate Knowledge article. For example, "crown" means the headgear worn by a monarch or other high dignitaries, while "The Crown" is a term used to indicate the government authority and the property of that government in a monarchy." 239:" mode. All of them are displayed with entire chapters available for reading (not just pages); phrase searches, scrolling feature, zoom, and monitor options. But also, many other chapters are not available to me. That is what I meant by taking screenshots from what I have. You can open a Google Books' account, no questions asked, if you happen to have a Gmail account ready. They also appreciate book reviews. The distinction between secondary and tertiary sources is relative. The 928:"In Eichmann's instructions to the Gestapo on organizing the deportation of Jews, he mentioned locations in the Lublin district as the destination. The gas chambers at Belzec and apparently also at Sobibor were in preparation by the beginning of 1942. There is no way of knowing why the Germans again chose this area that had once before been selected to absorb deported Jews, but this time it was transformed from a "Reservation" into a liquidation center." 31: 2595:

encompassing all racially motivated crimes and all their victims." They enumerate the victims in the section headers: Gypsies, the mentally and physically handicapped, Soviet prisoners of war, Polish and Soviet citizens, and "political prisoners, religious dissenters and homosexuals". They also summarize historians who include each of those groups in each section - for the handicapped they mention Henry Friedlander's

2053:

impression that the majority - or even the only- victim of the nazi crimes were jews 3) the number of total victims given in the current version is rather misleading, since if we calculate the total number of victims as listed in this very article - even by the lowest estimation - it will surpass the 17 million mark (this very article lists the number of Slavs murdered by nazis as 10,5 million!

3296:

holocaust took place all throughout the eastern part of the world were Jews mostly resided- including North Africa. Jews in the 1930s were mainly living in the Arab countries in the middle and near east. Before World War I, Jews in Libya had been subjected to anti-Semitic laws. The discrimination against Jews had been an ongoing stigma but things only worsened during Adolf Hitler’s presidency.

957:"In the second phase, Nahplan 2, Heydrich envisaged the deportation of 600,000 Jews from the new portions of the Reich to a reservation in the General Government where they would be held as hostages against the good behaviour of the Americans. The operation would commence on 15 January 1940, assuming that the Transport Ministry provided trains sufficient for 5,000 deportees per day." 849:"What motives lay behind the German attempt to concentrate the Jewish population in the so-called Lublin Reservation? The area in question extended southeast of the city of Lublin between the San and Vistula rivers in the west and the Bug River in the east, comprising 300 to 400 square miles. The idea was not entirely new, as it had already been broached at the end of the 1930s. 2341:

to digging out and editing sources especially as the addition wasn't to the body of the article. Let's keep it in mind that this edit was to the lead of the article, not the body. Statements about undue were related to it being in the LEAD. You must admit, it would be very very odd to never mention Himmler in the LEAD but yet mention Ribbentrop and Seyss-Inquart.

4716:"In my empirical research, I have sifted all extant documents to examine the names and data on all concentration camp prisoners registered as being homosexual.' I found the data for about 1,500 homosexuals (This is a complete survey of the quite incomplete documents). I chose as control groups Jehovah's Witnesses (about 750) and political prisoners (200)." 1302: 3304:

worldwide. Even without the physical concentration camps though, Jews were abused and completely cast down upon by everyone around them. Nowhere was safe. One of the worst parts about this today is that there is little to no awareness to these harsh truths. The Holocaust was not just a European affair; it was alive and well in North Africa as well.

390:

and up to date sources. There is no bias against print sources and we shouldn't say that online sources are preferred at any time. (And ... since I've been here over 10 years and have quite a number of edits (as well as a goodly number of featured and good articles, I'm familiar with wikipedia's sourcing requirements... )

188:. The system remains the same. I did not use any tertiary sources, because verifying the information without weblinks becomes a different ballgame. Please ask about anything you'd like to have clarified. I can also take screenshots of any specific pages from the online editions of these books. Cheers, 3299:

In North Africa, after the occupation of Cyrenaica by the British, Jews began to celebrate what they thought to be their liberation- which was the fraternization with Jewish soldiers. But this only made their circumstances far greater. They were blamed for the economic deterioration, they were beaten

3155:

The program then expanded to include children and teenagers, and some of them were not actually sick. ".various borderline or limited impairments in children of different ages, culminating in the killing of those designated as juvenile delinquents. Jewish children could be placed in the net primarily

2648:

They say that a "fourth definition would insist" (conditional), not that any historian actually uses it. I think we should provide names of historians who do use that definition; if none do, the lead is misleading and violates UNDUE. The overwhelming majority of Holocaust historians confine it to the

2477:

One reason I'm hesitant to use an Auschwitz image is that there are already quite a few in the article - it'd be nice to fight the image that many people have of Auschwitz being the only place the Holocaust took place. Let me see if the USHMM book has better images... I'm open to suggestions - images

2340:

I'm not saying Ribbentrop doesn't merit a mention in the article - but it would be very very odd to mention him (and the others in that edit) in the LEAD of this article but have no mention of Himmler in the lead. I, too, am on holiday and not editing as much and didn't really have the time to devote

1306:

Your suggested text above is very good. A few lines can be added for the average reader explaining the significance of Lublin which "was transformed from a "Reservation" into a liquidation center" (Leni Yahil). In an overview article the location of camps built for the sole purpose of killing people,

403:

So... Longerich (2012) pp. 151-155 discusses the Nisko Project (or Nisko-Lublin Plan of October 1939, which is the subheading he uses for the section on the plan). Page 152 "Between 20 and 28 October 4700 Jews were transported to Nisko from Vienna, Katowice, and Ostrava in a total of six transports."

2723:

The USHMM does say (and I think we should too): "During the era of the Holocaust, German authorities also targeted other groups because of their perceived 'racial inferiority': Roma (Gypsies), the disabled, and some of the Slavic peoples (Poles, Russians, and others). Other groups were persecuted on

2271:

I am puzzled how one measures “much less of a role” or what is meant the “top tier” or how to determine who is “more culpable”. Both the eminent historians, Peter Longerich and Saul Friedlander leave no doubt about the important role Ribbentrop played in implementing the Final Solution (as well as

2257:

Ribbentrop played much less of a role in the Holocaust than say Himmler or even Speer. The Nuremburg trials records are generally considered a primary source - they were written and the trial held so soon after the events that they cannot be considered a "history". Historians have had much more time

2073:

I think mentioning the other victims in the article is OK given there has been a lot of discussion on this in reliable sources. But there is currently no consensus among these sources and reputable historians in favor of the inclusion of these other victims under the broad heading of the Holocaust.

1863:

victims". There were an estimated 9.7 million Jews in all of Europe. There is no way that the article can possibly mean 15 to 20 million Jewish victims. We already refer to the study in the article - through its use by the USHMM. We also note that the same study found a lot more camps throughout the

442:

on pages 132-133 "In October 1939, the SS expulsion expert, Adolf Eichmann, experimented with transports of Jews from Vienna, Mahrisch Ostrau in the Protectorate, and Katowice in the "incorporated territory" of eastern Upper Silesia to the village of Nisko on the San River, where some Jews were made

389:

I'm not quite finished with digging through sources ... so its probably best to wait. I can see the page ... but there is a endnote on the information but I cannot access the actual citation in the endnote. As for "Knowledge editors prefer online sources"... that's not really true. We prefer current

4476:

for one practical reason. "Holocaust" look very similar to "Holodomor", and I noticed many Eastern European readers do not understand the difference between these two catastrophic events. In addition, I see a worrying tendency in popular literature, especially in some Central European countries, to

3303:

Many people assume that the holocaust happened in only Germany because of the place were Nazi leader, Adolf Hitler, was stationed. However, there were concentration camps and labor unions set in place for Jews as well. During the time of the 1930s and early 1940s, Jews were exiled and killed almost

3135:

Oh, I missed "incurably sick". To quote what words the Nazis used is good, but it needs clarification. To just write "incurably sick" does not provide enough information on what they included - according to the article: people with physical, mental and intellectual disabilities. Anyway, that's just

3049:

IP thanks for opening this discussion, but Knowledge talk pages are a little different from some other discussion forums on the internet, in that that is no expectation that the OP has "control" over the scope of a given discussion. If multiple things get fixed as a result of your bringing this up,

2668:

I suspect there are some genocide scholars that do. Bergen certainly includes those she mentioned in her third edtion - although most of the coverage is on the Jewish genocide. Berenbaum and Peck also included at least homosexuals and blacks in their definition, as they included those categories in

2594:

They don't use that definition themselves - but they say that's it a definiton that can be used - they mention all those groups on the pages 45-51 - and then say "A fourth definition would insist on seeing Nazi racism whole and describe the Holocaust as an inseparable complex of policies and events

2499:

but it actually lacks any photos or discussion of the medical experiments. They do have the Roma children photo, with a credit which might help if we want to go that route. It doesn't help that Commons is so strangely categorized - most of the images under the Nazi experimentation categories are of

2450:

and replace it with a photo of a victim of the experiments, rather than the rather dry photo of the defendants. I looked around and found the photo to the right, but it's not very clear and I don't believe the victim is Jewish. Anyone have any better options? I know there are a few photos around of

2187:

Infobox bloat is a perennial problem throughout Knowledge. Infoboxes are meant to be concise summaries of the primary topic and are inappropriate vehicles for information that requires nuanced discussion in prose. Infoboxes are not places to try to cram in contextless figures and one-word summaries

1281:

We still need to keep in mind that this is very much an overview article... and while we may be fascinated by the details... the average reader is most likely wanting the basics ... if they are interested in more details, that's what the subarticles are for. Do you have suggestions on improving the

407:

Longerich then goes on in pages 155 through 160 to discuss further deportations to the General Government under the heading "Deportations Phase II: Autumn 1939 to Spring 1940". There on page 156 he says "And indeed, according to the Higher SS and Police Commander, Wilhelm Koppe's concluding report,

342:

here where I found the information on actual page with numbers). Cesarani is very clear - on page 259 he says "Little more than a week after its inauguration the plan foundered. Instead of 80,000 Jews, a mere 4,700 had been removed." (I own Cesarani so I can easily read the entire section). On page

3151:

The first to be targeted were "all children under three years of age in whom any of the following 'serious hereditary diseases' were 'suspected': idiocy and Down syndrome (especially when associated with blindness and deafness); microcephaly; hydrocephaly; malformations of all kinds, especially of

2768:

I'm not wedded to the language or it being there - something like it was there when I started revamping and it was part of my "don't rock the boat too much" to not remove things that I could find sources for. Part of the problem is that historians usually don't do "definitions" ... it's like we're

1965:

Encyclopedia of the Holocaust (1990) estimate 5.59–5.86 million A 1996 study led by Wolfgang Benz suggested 5.29 to 6.2 million, based on comparing pre- and post-war census records and surviving German documentation on deportations and killings. Martin Gilbert arrived at a minimum of 5.75 million.

1964:

According to the Yad Vashem Holocaust Martyrs' and Heroes' Remembrance Authority in Jerusalem, "ll the serious research" confirms that between five and six million Jews died. In 1986 Lucy S. Dawidowicz used the pre-war census figures to estimate 5.934 million. Yehuda Bauer and Robert Rozett in the

852:

The Germans believed that the focus of the Jews' power and source of their genetic potential lay in Lublin ... It therefore appeared to the Nazis that by its very nature, the Lublin area would lend itself to the extermination of its Jewish population. For one thing, it was situated far off on the

256:

to text that in your view can be removed without loss of general overview of the plan. If the Nazi idea was to move 600,000 Jews to the 'reservation' eventually (Cesarani 262), our mentioning of 80,000 Jews planned initially (Cesarani 258) becomes spurious in a condensed article, if you see what I

3208:

In the very first line of the article, if you hover your mouse over the reference tooltip over the word Sho'ah, it reads that sho'ah is Hebrew for "catastrophe". However, this is false, as "sho'ah" or "שואה" means "destruction". Catastrophe is only a synonym to the actual word. The same goes with

3159:

Then the program expanded to adults. "In early October, all hospitals, nursing homes, old-age homes and sanatoria were required to report all patients who had been institutionalised for five years or more, who had been committed as "criminally insane", who were of "non-Aryan race" or who had been

2920:

If we're going to go down that road, then we also need to consider the use of "homosexuals" because the noun form of the word "homosexual" is widely considered objectionable and is deprecated by various reliable sources. The problem is that many of the reliable sources we're using may be somewhat

2504:

has a few photos, including one of Dzido testifying at Nuremburg and showing off her mangled leg from the experiments, but its a very small photo published on regular paper, so its even worse than the one above. Helm credits "Ullstein/Topfoto" for that photo. On the same page there is an image of

2368:

The reason I had put the block quote in was that the Nuremberg definition of crimes against humanity is a subset of today’s overall definition in WP article. It was directly applied to the mass murders that made up the Holocaust. Agree to removing the block quote and have added direct link to the

2241:

I do not fully understand your explanation for the revision of of 00:37, 1 January 2018. Perhaps the paragraph does give undue weight and adds info not included in the article (which is easily remedied by including other info) but it would be helpful to explain your points. The implication that

2100:

2) If, however, what you are saying is that there's no consensus about whether the murders of non-jews are a part of holocaust, then, again, we already listed non-jews under the "victims" section, under the "broader definition" category. If we were to add non-jewish people to the number of deaths

1825:

the “new” study isn’t new. That article is from 2013. And it doesn’t say that 15-20 million Jewish victims died, it says a total figure that includes 6 million Jewish victims. There couldn’t have been 15-20 million Jewish victims because there were at most 9 to 10 million Jews in Europe. And this

411:

So from reading a bit of this - it appears that Cesarani and Longerich apply the term "Nisko plan" to the short-lived October plan to deport people to Nisko, and that they do not include the later deportations as part of that plan. I do think we'd be better off making the heading more general and

362:

Try the following link, and please describe exactly what it is that you actually see in Google Books so I can get a clearer idea about your level of access. Generally speaking, Knowledge editors prefer online sources to paper copies, especially when the subject of our article is in certain points

107:

Quite frankly, this is entirely too much detail for this plan in this article. We really need to remember that this is an overview article and not stuff it full of too much detail. And... the google books link to the page for the 95,000 does not work for me. Besides Cesarani and Longrich who both

4844:

The way it is written here is like Serbs or Jews in NDH had a choice either to convert or to die. The reality is that some of them were forced to convert, otherwise they would be killed, some of them were expelled to Serbia or elsewhere, and some of them were killed or taken to the concentration

560:

Note that I fixed the citation for the first sentence from Cesarani 2004 to Cesarani 2016 - as the quote you had in that citation was from Cesarani 2016. I've tried to stick with sources that are already in use in the article... and I've cut a bit of detail that doesn't necessarily deal with the

493:

to this reservation. The first plan to be implemented was to concentrate the Jews around Nisko, and it began in October 1939. Although this "Nisko Plan" initially intended to remove 80,000 Jews, Eichmann managed to send only 4,700 Jews, by March 1940. The Nisko Plan was put on hold in late March

2052:

the notion because 1) we already mention all the other categories in the infobox under the victims category, but there's no mention on the number of casulaties 2) we do have to remember that people generally don't read the entire article, and many stop at the infobox, which gives them the false

208:

The Encyclopedias/Dictionaries are tertiary sources.. Especially the first as its designed for a high school/early college level library. The original edition of it was published by Facts on File, well known for producing reference works for non-academic libraries. I actually switched the whole

2096:

1) If what you are saying is that the numbers in question are doubtful - (in my edit) I took the numbers from this article, using the lowest estimates (I agree, for example, that the number of 2 million Romanis mentioned in the article seem to be bloated). Ofcourse you can say that other stuff

1971:

I think therefore it would be more accurate to say 5-6 million rather then about 6 million, because 5-6 million sets a larger range and Holocaust Martyr's and Heroes remembrance authority also says between 5 and 6 million. I know the death toll can be very controversial especially with neonazi

2151:

4) And finally that really doesn't take into account the discrepancy between the total number mentioned in the infobox (17 million) and the number you'd get by calculating the number of deaths mentioned in the article (which would surpass the 17 million mark even if you only summ the smallest

1638:

Ein Mensch ergab nur etwa ein halbes Okka Asche (600 Gramm), die uns die Deutschen zu zerkleinen zwangen , um sie dann durch ein grobes Sieb zu pressen, und danach holte es ein Auto ab und schüttete es in den Fluss , der in der Nähe vorbeiflisst, und so beseitigen sie alle Spuren". ( von

3295:

The Jewish Holocaust was one of the most horrific historical events. Known worldwide as the near-depletion and complete humiliation of Jews in Nazi-Germany, Europe, the Holocaust remains a nightmare and inhumane part of history to all. However, the Holocaust did not only occur in Europe. The

247:

does not have notes but only the names of individual authors and titles of their articles. For example the 95,000 figure originates from article "The Destruction of European Jewry, 1933–1945" by Aharon Weiss. We can look it up elsewhere. Heavy reliance on individual authors can be a problem,

1994:

Yad Vashem isn't the only authority so we shouldn't base it on that. The usual "rounded" number is 6 million. We aim for an overview in the lead and its probably best to stick with simple figures. Most estimates are closer to 6 million than 5 million in more recent scholarship, by the way.

1840:

Up until now, the Holocaust is thought to have consumed between five and six million Jews, with an estimated further six million other people also murdered by the Nazi regime. The new figures of 15 to 20 million, which have astonished some Holocaust historians, come after thirteen years of

3883:) happened to the liberated prisoners of concentration camps in general and were not limited to the Jewish victims, and not actually part of the Holocaust, I suggested that the section on liberation in article about Nazi concentrations camps would be more suitable to cover these events. -- 829:

This is excellent. I love your investigative spirit. The 'Nisko Plan' section of our article was confusing because the actual 'plan' did not succeed even though it gave birth to the idea of mass extermination of Jews in that exact area. The true subject of our inquiry is (and was) the

3261:

Was the murder or other minorities like Romas part of TH or not? I think TH refers solely to the plight of Jews, but the lead is not as ambiguous as it could be, since immediately in the second sentence or so it discusses the wider context and plight of other groups. Some could get

4440:, and no doubt thousands of other terms. However, like these other examples, "Holocaust" does not meet the two main criteria of WP:THE. The first is that the name with and without the article have different meanings. While this may have been the case decades ago, the fact that " 2677:

page. Personally, I prefer the narrow definition but it's not my choice to just cover the Jewish genocide. If we take out the sentence in question, we'd need to remove the sections on those groups from the body of the article, because then they would make no sense to be covered.

2465:

We could try to track down a better version of the Roma children. I would like to see that restored. I was in touch years ago with someone who knew about that image, so I can resume contact, but that will be a longer term project. For now, I'm fine with any image you suggest.

1413:

to justify murder. The confirmed number of successful escapes was 196. Perhaps only this information is useful for our purposes. Some postwar stories told about what happened at Auschwitz are likely to be hearsay upon hearsay ... which I got from reading Laurence Rees.

2242:

Ribbentrop had a minor role in the Holocaust is contrary to the Nuremberg judgement, (section War Crimes and Crimes against Humanity) wich concluded that "He played an important part in Hitler's “final solution” of the Jewish question." But maybe I have misunderstood

3280:

It depends on which source you use. Most use the term just for Jewish victims, especially in the wider non-academic sphere of writing, but a significant minority of academic and non-academic writers include other victims, thus why this article is a bit ... fractured.

2147:

3) In any case I feel like mentioning the number of non-jewish deaths (considering the number of said deaths) is just waaaay too important for this article to just ignore because the numbers might be arguably less precise, or because the infobox would become slightly

881:

I think it's interesting, and probably would be useful in the Lublin reservation article - not sure it's that useful here in the overview. Interesting though... of course, neither Frank nor Seyss-Inquart were exactly in the forefront of the Nazi hierarchy either.

4450:

for all of these years shows the two are synonymous. The second criteria is that the article would be capitalised in running text. This is also not the case with the Holocaust. In short, there is no meaningful difference between these other examples and the

1972:

trolls, but I think the edit would provide more clarity especially in the introduction when the 6 million figure is first mentioned, rather then going all the way down to the section about jews to see the range of estimates of the death toll of jewish victims

1201:

The first short-range plan concentrated on the expulsion of individual Poles who were placed on the deportation lists because of their particular political or social status or because they possessed lodgings and businesses needed for incoming Baltic Germans.

2769:

allergic to them or something. The gods forbid that we should like define our scope somewhere in plain English... like I said - if it was me writing this article for a textbook - I'd only include Jewish victims, but that's not what the sources do so...

1922:

Hey guys, I was told I had to get a consensus before I changed the number from "about 6 million" to 5-6 million, I assume I get a consensus here, and should I post sources to back up why I think it should read 5-6 million rather then 6 million or??

3190:

thanks for unpacking that. "People with disabilities" wouldn't be correct. We should remove "the disabled" and replaced it with "incurably sick" (or a different phrase depending on what the RS use; "incurably sick" doesn't quite capture it either).

3140:"Oh, I missed "incurably sick". To quote what words the Nazis used is good, but it needs clarification." I am not particularly educated in what the Nazis thought to be sickness, but I would assume that they targeted the same categories of people as 2325:

Good idea, Sarah. Will look into it a little later as am on hols in the depth of Provence away from books. Hated to see Ribbentrop disappear completely from the article on the questionable claim that he had a "minor role." Cheers + Happy New Year

961:"Nahplan 2 was resurrected in March 1940 and continued in fits and starts until January 1941, by which time 143 transports had carried 133,508 Poles to the General Government. Only three trains were used to deport Polish Jews, chiefly from Posen." 2140:

1) It's ofcourse a question of personal preference, but I am looking at my edit (the one I linked above) right now and I really don't think the infobox is in any way bloated. And it's certainly not bigger than many other infoboxes in featured

1208:

on indiscriminately seizing and deporting Jews were in effect admitting that they had not diligently carried out the identification and seizure of Polish activists and intelligentsia and thus were not eager to report the actual number of Jews

2122:

Obviously, since I reverted the addition, I don't think so either, but mainly to keep the infobox simple. Crowding it with too many figures just creates bloat. And then having some figures be precise but others not is also not good practice.

2578:, they don't use that definition. Their definition includes the Jews, Roma, and Aktion T4 victims: "the systematic, state-sponsored murder of entire groups determined by heredity. This applied to Jews, Gypsies, and the handicapped" (p. 52). 4294:

As stated above by In ictu oculi , the addition of a definite article sets a distinction on what follows, it's an obvious application in this case. By the way, it's bad practice to ask the same question in multiple places in a discussion.

3102:

I get "upset" because none of you commented on the actual point I was making. Discussing use of other pejorative, derogatory or obsolete words is good, but if that's what you want to do, I don't think this section is where to be doing it.

2213:. If we were to itemize other groups of victims, we'd need to itemize them all, not just the ones shown in your edit. That would not be optimal the infobox. It's not just the lengthiness but the lack of context, as Acroterion notes above. 2866:

This article contains numerous cases of phrasings and terms regarding people with disabilities that are obsolete and for many people pejorative. The expressions where "the" is put in front of such labels are also not recommended.

1392:

the total of 928 prisoners attempted to escape from Auschwitz. I have included this total in the article and I wonder if it is significant because the museum does not explain where it came from. Their website says that that number

2954:

Perhaps. I'd certainly support that over the status quo, but it might be better to say "homosexual men", since the word "gay" wasn't in common usage at the time, and the adjectival form is generally not considered objectionable.

3160:

diagnosed with any on a list of conditions. The conditions included schizophrenia, epilepsy, Huntington's chorea, advanced syphilis, senile dementia, paralysis, encephalitis and "terminal neurological conditions generally". "

2872:

In the list "involving the persecution and murder of other groups, including in particular the Roma and "incurably sick", as well as political opponents, homosexuals, Jehovah's Witnesses, ethnic Poles, and Soviet prisoners of

1578:

on "Prisoner Escapes" doesn't try to quantify the number either. Given that none of those sources do, I think we need to avoid giving a number that's only from the museum's site without any sources for that information.

853:

eastern border, and the Germans eve believed that it was deserted ... Frank's deputy, Artur Seyss-Inquart, quoted the regional governor as having said, 'This area, which is noted for its swampy nature, can ... serve as

1633:

Auschwitz Aufzeichnungen eines Häftlings: "... Wir trugen die Leichen dieser unschuldigen Frauen und Kinder zum Aufzug, der sie in den Raum mit dem Öfgen beförderte , und dort stecken sie sie in dei öfen ,

3163:

Reportedly, some Nazis would like to include people with physical disabilities, who were otherwise functioning within society. The idea was scrapped because a very prominent Nazi had a physical disability of his own:

2513:

of her testimony at Nuremburg showing her leg, but I suck so badly at video stuff I couldn't begin to extract the useful bits for the article - but that'd be a great addition... I'll keep digging on the USHMM site...

2581:

I'm looking for mainstream academic historians who actually use the broadest definition. If none do, we ought to rewrite that sentence ("other groups were persecuted"). If they do, we should name them in a footnote.

2703:

Writing from memory, Berenbaum doesn't, and the museum doesn't: "The Holocaust was the systematic, bureaucratic, state-sponsored persecution and murder of six million Jews by the Nazi regime and its collaborators."

1282:

suggested text above? Rutherford should be in tomorrow, hopefully, now the problem will be finding the time to research/edit (Mondays and Tuesdays are my husband's days off and we end up doing house stuff usually).

1035:"When Himmler had ordered the deportation of all Jews from the incorporated territories on October 30, 1939, the exact border between the expanded Third Reich and the General Government had not yet been determined." 126:

I truly admire the amount of work you put into this article recently. I patiently waited for the volume of your edits to slow down before changing and/or adding anything. Please look at the size and coverage of the

1116:(German: Saybusch), but in nearby Zabłocie (now a district of Żywiec). The knowledge of Polish is invaluable in this sort of research. Jews from Zabłocie served in the Polish Army in 1939. They were deported to a 899:

I just spent an hour rereading Leni Yahil. There's definitely a clash of sources in the coverage of this subject, just like you said. – Some historians conclude that the plan was a failure. For their names, see

2528: 4477:

understate the former and overstate the latter. It would be desirable to make the names of these two articles as different (visually) as possible: I prefer to have "The Holocaust" and "Holodomor" articles.--

2841:"ethnic Poles and other Slavs (most notably Ukrainians and Belorusians), Soviet prisoners of war, as well as political opponents, the Roma, "incurably sick", Freemasons, homosexuals and Jehovah's Witnesses." 316:

We definitely have an issue with a clash of sources. I'm still not seeing where Edelheit gets the number of 78,000 (I can't access that footnote in Google books). See further in the Rozett and Spector work

3300:

and abused, and were overall oppressed and forced to be suppressed under French and German rule. At this time, Italians were directed as allies of the Germans, so, they were also terrorizers of Jews.

2649:

Jews. Some extend it to the Roma and disabled. Some restrict it to post-1941; others admit events before that. But does any Holocaust historian use the broadest definition that we offer in this lead?

989:

53-61". Unfortunately, my copy of Browning is packed away (and I used a library copy for my checking of this article so I don't have quick access to him). The stuff on page 263 is from "Rutherford

4504:; the nomination does not address what might have changed since then. Ajax, looking at that discussion and this one I would say it is time to step back from the conversation; you've had your say. 923:– I think we ought to give equal footing to both sides of the aforementioned debate. The Nisko boondoggle from Cesarani gets mentioned in our article together with the camps from Poprzeczny. Yet, 4649: 412:

linking directly to the Lublin plan... which would avoid it making it look like all the deportations were part of the Nisko Plan, which the current heading appears to do. Still digging, however.

3016:

Now, further on the topic. "persons/people/etc with disabilities" are what is being used by governments throughout the world, including USA, Sweden and many more. Compare the change of the 1975

2991:

This does not have anything to do with what I suggested in detail. The situation for words like "gay" or "homosexual" is not the same as for what is used to describe people with disabilities.

4777:. I did not find such an article that lists the different countries' participation in The Holocaust, but these two articles contain lot of relevant info, for starting a new page if need be: 321:

under the entry for the Nisko-Lublin plan where they don't give the 78,000 number. The page 133 that you're citing is actually in the introductory material on page 47 and should be cited as

1843:

Reading both sentence after one another, it seems so obvious to me that what they mean is that the 6 million was revised to 20 million. How comes you understand the article differently? --

1809:

But it says '17 million victims overall' and not 17 million Jewish victims overall. The new study clearly says that 15-20 million Jewish people were exterminated during the Holocaust. --

1001:

154-7". I have the Longerich and the Gerwarth on my shelves, if you're wanting them. It'll be tomorrow before I can get to this - hubby's home so will be spending the evening with him.

447:(3rd edition) for information on the Nisko plan or the deportations into the General Government in 1939-1941 .. while it's discussed, numbers aren't really given, unfortunately. 2447: 1782: 955:

That's why, during my 10 September 2017‎ reading of this article, I noticed right away that there was something wrong with the Lublin coverage. Cesarani wrote on page 262:

4873: 2829:

Perhaps it's a minor edit proposal, but the sentence that lists the non-Jewish victims seems to be ordered randomly (?), which may skew the perception of a casual reader:

2144:

2) As for the precision of this numbers, I can partially agree with that. But (as I did in my edit) we can list them in spans. For example, 3.3-5.7 million Soviet POWs.

506:, and included both Jews and Poles. By that time 95,000 Jews were already concentrated in the area; but further ideas of deporting up to 600,000 additional Jews to the 4693:

60% of what number though? The numbers are unclear. And the unknown figure comes from the USHMMM, if they don’t have an estimate ...we can’t do our own calculations.

1252: 1307:

with only three such facilities in existence, can be interesting. There's no other section in this article for it. I'll be waiting for your review of Rutherford.

4773:. That page primarily focuses on military alliances of Germany, rather than collaborators of The Holocaust and doesn't even mention Holocaust once, except for 2845:

As you can see, I also added Freemasons and non-Polish Slavs, which all had significantly more victims than, for example, Jehovah's Witnesses or homosexuals.

4665:

To be more specific, it currently says "unknown" number of homsoexual deaths in the table. Would that be a good source to change it from unknown to a number?

3970:. Do we really need both of them? The second one lists existing pages rather than important subjects. Holocaust in Hungary and in Greece aren't listed there. 2921:

behind the curve on these things. Personally, I don't think it's a huge deal, but I have considered this before and thought I may as well say something now.

4347:

which calls for a definite article here. In particular, reliable sources say "about the Holocaust" or "about the holocaust", and not "about The Holocaust".

2097:

exists, but then we should start a discussion about whether we should remove the whole seaction about non-jewish deaths if the sources there are in question

3021: 3017: 2010:

We would need a preponderance of reliable sources to change the figure in the lede. The odds of that happening in the near future are vanishingly small.

1262: 3119:

When we talk about people with disabilities being targeted, we're referring to what the Nazis called the "incurably sick" or "genetically diseased" (

2451:

some of the Dachau experiments. There's also one of the Roma children from Auschwitz, but I do not have access to a good quality reproduction of it.

1524:

if you have access to it... it might have more information. If not, I'll try to get to this Wednesday when I get back to wiki-work from my weekend.

1117: 4774: 4370:

and all of the above. In English, the Holocaust is never referred to simply as Holocaust. Just as the Beatles are never referred to as Beatles. —

3778:, in: Stiftung Denkmal für die ermordeten Juden Europas (Hrsg.), Materialien zum Denkmal für die ermordeten Juden Europas, Berlin 2005, S. 72-77. 1256: 805: 786: 767: 748: 726: 707: 688: 669: 650: 631: 612: 593: 435: 339: 2831:" Roma and "incurably sick", as well as political opponents, homosexuals, Jehovah's Witnesses, ethnic Poles, and Soviet prisoners of war." 1877:

Precisely that. The USHMM study would have said explicitly if they meant the count of Jewish victims needed to be reconsidered; it didn't.

1757:

The Holokaust took place in several countries, it's true that mainly in Nazi Germany and occupied lands, but also in Romania and Slovakia,

494:

1940, and it was abandoned in April. By mid-October however, the idea of a Jewish reservation was revived by Himmler, due to the influx of

4018:

Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a

1783:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/germany/9906771/Nazis-may-have-killed-up-to-20m-claims-shocking-new-Holocaust-study.html

1574:

does not give a figure for total escape attempts. Neither do either history of Auschwitz - Dwork and van Pelt's or Rees'. The chapter in

143:

of Operation Reinhard. That is not too much detail. Below are the sources and editions I used, all available online through Google Books:

4874:

https://books.google.com/books?id=bFN2ismyhEYC&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false

4852: 4376: 1938: 1674: 913: 490: 318: 4917: 4899: 3879:

I've certainly noticed that this article has a section on liberation (if that's what you mean), but as deaths from sudden food intake (

4809: 4518:

Sorry I didn't realize I'd reached my quota. Can you please tell me if or when I'll be allowed into the discussion again? (BTW, the

3340: 3985:@Xx236 Feel free to add missing links. Reserve making up my mind about the need for these two, distinct, templates for a later time. 3931: 1076:

Aktion (Oct. 10–20, 1940) Total: 10,700 (Jews: 1,000), and Litauer Aktion (Dec. 5–17, 1940) Total: 9,766 (Jews: 3,259); followed by

331: 2741:

But that's quite different from saying there is this third, broadest, definition that we refer to, with all the groups we include.

3156:

because they were Jewish; and at one of the institutions, a special department was set up for 'minor Jewish-Aryan half-breeds'. "

3035: 2905: 1602:"The total number of inmates who escaped from the greatest death factory in Nazi Europe was 667 and of them 270 were recaptured." 4812:. Many of the collaborators were sub-state groups - e.g. the most notorious being in the Baltics and Ukrainians in Nazi service. 2439: 3224: 3123:), and that's already in the lead, so it would make no sense to add "people with disabilities". There is no contemporary term. 3025: 1327:

Oh, didn't mean to rush. Just didn't want you to think I hadn't seen this. Nothing is more annoying than silence sometimes....

2552:

The Holocaust started on 16th August 1941, when Himmler gave permission to the death squads to start killing Jewish children.

2495:

are fair use so those aren't much help (and I'd rather not duplicate photos from a sub-article if we can avoid it). I checked

953: 3963: 1506: 1480: 1454: 1194: 523: 2034:

Should the infobox include the number of victims of all categories (slavs, disabled and such) under the broadest definition?

1968:

It seems the minimum is over 5 million and the maximum is slightly less then 6 million, with one source saying 6.2 million

1800:

We already refer to the larger number, and the Holocaust Memorial Museum study, under the header "Victims and death toll".

4778: 4501: 4201: 3319: 2505:

Maria Kusmierczuk in the camp showing her mutilated leg - the credit for that is with the USHMM and it's on their site as

94: 86: 81: 69: 64: 59: 2724:

political, ideological, and behavioral grounds, among them Communists, Socialists, Jehovah's Witnesses, and homosexuals."

1758: 1549:

about the Auschwitz escapes include survivors never imprisoned there. Their claims are used by historians nevertheless.

4738: 2977:

Outside of quotes I do not think level of usage in the 1940's is terribly important; we write in contemporary English.

1715:

The Jews were expelled from some areas (Spain, Germany) to another areas (Poland, Bulgaria), not expelled from Europe.

1399:"The escape of 433 prisoners failed - they were captured, and sent to the camp where the majority of them perished, or 1045: 4416:

and general linguistic usage. Of course the definite article is usually used with "Holocaust". It is also used with

1355:

I'm going through trying to tighten the text a little. Is there consensus to go ahead and add the new Lublin section?

1234:

Liczba Żydów zamieszkujących Zabłocie, Isep i Sporysz - obecnie dzielnice Żywca - w 1938 roku doszła do dziewięciuset.

1100:). — In my opinion, the line between Polish gentiles, and the Jewish Poles in those actions remained blurry, see the 4572:

per Vquakr, Shearonink etc. The redirect isn't a good reason to change the title either. Ajax, please don't respond.

924: 2354:

I have hurriedly put Ribbentrop back in where he belongs per Sarah's suggestion. Could be improved. Hope it is ok.

4497: 2492: 835: 248:

especially when a subject of our inquiry is covered by them only in brief. Cesarani is a very good source, but the

38: 3334:

This table is more precise than the actual "Figures according to Wolfgang Benz" in "Victims and death toll" -: -->

917: 908:

It is a known fact however, that the 'resettlement' resulted in the creation of 51 slave labour camps in the area

901: 4591: 4009: 323:

Weiss, Aharon (2013) . "The Destruction of European Jewry 1933-1945". In Rozett, Robert; Spector, Shmuel (eds.).

4616: 2802:

I've added words about a "larger event", and used "including" so that we don't list all the groups in the lead.

1084:(Jan.–Mar. 1941) Total: 19,226 (Jews: 2,140); Vienna (Feb. 15–Mar. 12, 1941) Total: 5,000 (Jews: 5,000); Danzig– 3841: 3837: 3343:(Germany) show the annihilation of the Jewish population of Europe by (pre-war) country as percentage points: 4553:

In common usage, "The" Holocaust - as the proper name for an event - is a different thing from "a" holocaust.

2173:. Keep the infobox streamlined. The article discusses the groups, the numbers, and the debates about numbers. 1037:— Therefore, the ideas devised at the end of September had no bearing on reality. The Nisko Plan was scrapped 3844:

article - if properly referenced - but I can not see how it's directly connected with the Holocaust proper.--

1678: 959:– What is Cesarani's source for this statement, can you please look it up for me? On page 263 Cesarani adds: 252:

is not covered by him at all. Only the Nahplan 1 & 2. However, I'm open for your suggestions. Please add

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by Danuta Czech (1990) is not in Google Books. On a side note, some of the notorious storytellers from the

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https://books.google.ca/books?id=J5EuAgAAQBAJ&q=nisko-lublin#v=snippet&q=nisko-lublin&f=false

4601: 4578: 4371: 4019: 3876:

Can you explain your proposition somewhat more fully, please? I'm not quite sure what are you aiming at.

3803: 3776:

Menschenleben und Statistik. Zur Errechnung der während des Nationalsozialismus ermordeten Juden Europas

3734: 3244: 2995:(If it's legitimate for Knowledge discussions, please break out the other discussion from this section.) 2557: 2478:

are not my strong suit, I'll admit. (I'm a wildlife/landscape photographer, not a people photographer!)

2425: 2079: 1954: 3788:

Stiftung Jüdisches Museum Berlin/ Stiftung Haus der Geschichte der Bundesrepublik Deutschland (Hrsg.),

3315: 2852: 1949:

Sources are a good thing. Consensus is based on discussion and a discussion is based on arguments… ;-)

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Bundeszentrale für politische Bildung / Federal Agency for Civic Education (Germany), April 29th 2018

4908:

Bundeszentrale für politische Bildung / Federal Agency for Civic Education (Germany), April 29th 2018

3923: 3799: 3730: 1497: 1471: 1445: 4890:

Bundeszentrale für politische Bildung / Federal Agency for Civic Education (Germany), April 29th 2018

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We should use actual scholars of the Holocaust instead of an unsourced government agency's webpage.

1640: 1236:

The number of Jews living in Zabłocie, Isep and Sporysz neighborhoods of Żywiec reached 900 by 1938.

1185: 180:

Please explain what you mean by non-standarized references. I kept the same system as you did, with

4798: 4533: 4458: 4433: 4392: 4352: 4281: 4176: 4110: 3990: 3644: 3220: 1734:

The text doesn't inform about Goldhagen's book and the critics but the boook is listed under Books.

963:– Where does this information come from in Cesarani's book? I appreciate any help you can provide. 131:

in a separate WP article where you can get a sense of how important the plan was in the lead-up to

4888:"Unter der NS-Herrschaft ermordete Juden nach Land." / "Jews by country murdered under Nazi rule." 3311: 2848: 1754:

The section describes facts which took place in different periods without explaining the sequence.

1389: 4698: 4657: 4232: 4140: 4136: 4100: 4087: 4040: 3880: 3749: 3286: 3173: 2774: 2683: 2636: 2536: 2519: 2483: 2456: 2388: 2346: 2263: 2153: 2128: 2102: 2056: 2043: 2000: 1973: 1930: 1869: 1831: 1584: 1529: 1332: 1296: 1287: 1187:

The Origins of the Final Solution: The Evolution of Nazi Jewish Policy, September 1939-March 1942

1129: 1041:(page 7). However, the Nahplans (1, 2 & 3) have been implemented. The evacuees were deported 1019: 1006: 949: 887: 831: 566: 533: 507: 482: 472: 452: 417: 395: 348: 249: 217: 139:, taking place roughly in the same area. Globocnik was in charge of the 'reservation' as well as 132: 117: 47: 17: 4887: 3836:

This can be true, but it's not actually part of The Holocaust. It can be perhaps added into the

3761:

Dear Ealdgyth, the numbers of the table ARE the results of actual scholars, incl. Wolfgang Benz.

2416:

that may be relevant to this article. Interested editors are encouraged to join the discussion

4829: 4817: 4782: 4478: 4211: 3943: 3911: 3268: 2836: 2374: 2359: 2331: 2277: 2247: 1891: 1848: 1814: 1790: 1503: 1477: 1451: 1191: 520: 432: 328: 4876: 2705: 2674: 1692:

please explain what do you mean exactly - that extermination of Polish people was legitimate?

502:. Resettlement actions connected to this reservation plan continued until January 1941 under 4789: 4573: 4509: 4421: 3888: 3849: 3240: 3091: 3055: 2982: 2553: 2421: 2287: 2075: 1950: 1546: 1125: 4734: 3821:

prisoners died during few days, somtimes beacuse they obtained food. Some women were raped.

2417: 2092:(Forgive me in advance if I misunderstood what you meant) but here's two counterarguments: 1636:

wo sie verbrannten ohne Zuhilfenahme von Brennmaterial aufgrund des Fetts , das sie haben.

489:. Adolf Eichmann was assigned the task of removing all Jews from Germany, Austria, and the 4667: 4621: 4554: 4429: 4330: 4298: 4271: 4252: 4065: 3975: 3867: 3826: 3192: 3165: 3124: 3076: 2956: 2944: 2922: 2803: 2742: 2650: 2583: 2510: 2467: 2315: 2214: 2191: 2174: 2011: 1766: 1739: 1720: 1700: 1639:

russische Historiker Pavel Polian und IT- Spezialist A. Nikitjaew , Der Spiegel 40/2017)

1609: 1551: 1416: 1368: 1356: 1309: 1134: 1121: 1101: 965: 932: 865: 546: 503: 477:

After the invasion of Poland, the Germans planned to set up a "Jewish reservation" in the

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Quellen und Forschung - Zum Hintergrund der in den historischen Karten verwendeten Zahlen

4901:

Quellen und Forschung - Zum Hintergrund der in den historischen Karten verwendeten Zahlen

4742: 2506: 427:

Browning, Christopher (2010). "Problem Solvers". In Hayes, Peter; Roth, John K. (eds.).

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I think we should move list of "Victims and death toll" to head of article, as is in

1664:

Also, the Polish people and the German people had long History of wars and conflicts.

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per WP:THE condition #1. The "the" disambiguates from the other holocausts listed at

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Sources and Research - To the background of the numbers used in the historical maps.

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Sources and Research - To the background of the numbers used in the historical maps.

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Also, I'm skeptical to "intellectual" and "mental". These words are not synonyms.

2629:

THe Holocaust and History: The Known, the Unknown, the Disputed, and the Reexamined

2370: 2355: 2327: 2305: 2273: 2243: 1887: 1844: 1810: 1786: 1397:

but without listing (or linking) anything. Here's a quote from the same paragraph:

1231:(in Polish), Kirkuty - cmentarze żydowskie w Polsce - Jewish cemeteries in Poland, 1085: 2101:

section, then, ofcourse, we shoul list them there under the "broader definition".

3136:

the list. The majority of instances I'm talking about are not quotes. /2018-02-24

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I agree with this. It was gay men they targeted, and that's what we should say.

2531:". Some of them are a bit grisly. Open to suggestions of which ones would work. 1406: 1029: 857:

for the Jews, and this action may cause a considerable decimation of the Jews.'"

173: 163: 153: 140: 46:

If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the

4727: 3769:

Dimension des Völkermords. Die Zahl der jüdischen Opfer des Nationalsozialismus

1043:"to all four districts within the General Government (and not just to Lublin)." 4770: 4600:

Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a

4325: 3971: 3863: 3822: 3596: 3538: 3152:

limbs, head, and spinal column; and paralysis, including spastic conditions".

1762: 1735: 1716: 1696: 486: 128: 930:– I don't think we need to actually try to answer this question here at all. 4523: 4452: 4417: 4162: 4158: 3462: 3141: 3075:

I agree that we should use contemporary language, which would be "gay men".

1081: 499: 4031:

the page at this time, per the discussion below. Please remember to remain

2527:

Well, there are 70 public domain photos at the USHMM under the search for "

1113: 3783:

European Refugees 1939-53. A Study in Forced Population Movement, Evanston

371:

I am going to incorporate your other suggestions in my next edit. Thanks,

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https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=The_Holocaust&oldid=818859475

3674: 3612: 3402: 2607:. For Polish and Soviet civilians - they mention Wytwycky again, Lukas 1226: 1661:

The slavic people were enemies of the Germans. The USSR fought them.

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because "(lets keep it simple - infoboxes are meant to be simple)".

2074:

So putting them in the infobox I think is a bridge too far for me. -

1096:

were Jewish (approx. 12.5%); according to the Nazi authorities, per

445:

The Forgotten Holocaust: The Poles Under German Occupation 1939-1944

290:

https://books.google.ca/books?id=2arPruq8lhIC&q=Nisko%2FZarzecze

275:

Here's what Joseph Poprzeczny writes about Nisko on page 160 in his

243:

has multiple citations in every paragraph for confirmation of fact.

2673:. For that matter - the USHMM includes many of the above in their " 1027:

Rutherford is not available in Google Books preview. But Browning,

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I believe that the above statement should be removed, not a forum.

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Browning explains that the disagreement originates from the old "

1785:

We should update the figure of 6 million as fast as possible. --

1658:

This is unbelievable the following claim is not in the article:

4035:

toward other editors when commenting in talk page discussions.

1390:

http://auschwitz.org/en/history/resistance/escapes-and-reports/

1033:

is; shedding light on the timeline of events. Quote (page 53):

294:

Poprzeczny mentions the 78,000 Jews dispatched eastward to the

25: 4619:

look like a good source for 60% murder rate of homosexuals?

3050:

that is a good result all around - not a reason to be upset.

4650:

Persecution of homosexuals in Nazi Germany and the Holocaust

1841:

painstaking study at Washington's Holocaust Memorial Museum.

981:

For the stuff on page 262 - the citation is to "Rutherford,

1777:

Nazis may have killed up to 20m, claims new Holocaust study

1667:

The Jewish people was not a threat to the Germans at all.

1447:

Death Dealer: The Memoirs of the SS Kommandant at Auschwitz

1014:

I just ordered Rutherford - I should have it by next week.

4877:

https://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10007312

4500:. Also, this discussion and consensus was already reached 2408:

Proposal to ban extremist political symbols from templates

1056:"1" (Dec. 1939) Total: 87,833 (Jews: 10,000); followed by 3790:

Heimat und Exil. Emigration der deutschen Juden nach 1933

1064:

Aktion (May 1940–Jan. 1941) Total: 91,956 (Jews: 2,663);

738: 736: 231:

The books listed above are offered to me by Google in a "

2993:

PLEASE CREATE A SECTION OF YOUR OWN FOR THAT DISCUSSION!

2509:(for which they are claiming copyright, heh). They have 4821: 4442: 4428:

and other similar articles, too. It is also used with

4173:. It redirects to this article (as it has for years). 4056: 3942:

That article is specifically about the victims though.

2575: 2311: 2039: 4824:- feel free to revert/modify if there is a better one. 3903:

Move list of Victims and death toll to head of article

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people with disabilities (don't forget the "info box")

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Nazi sphere than had previously been thought existed.

460:

So... looking at the above... I suggest the following:

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a

4385:

Simply using "the" before a term is not mentioned in

2880:- physically and intellectually disabled people : --> 2310:

perhaps instead you could add a few sentences to the

1088:(Mar. 1941) Total: 2,000 (Jews: 2,000). Grand total: 1072:

Aktion (Sept.–Dec. 1940) Total: 17,413 (Jews: none);

1068:

Aktion (Sept.–Dec. 1940) Total: 28,365 (Jews: none);

2825:

Ordering the non-Jewish victims by the number killed

838:

The Holocaust: The Fate of European Jewry, 1932-1945

510:

failed because of logistical and political factors.

431:. Oxford, UK: Oxford University Press. pp. 128–141. 158:

Dr Robert Rozett, Dr Shmuel Spector (Nov 26, 2013),

4022:. No further edits should be made to this section. 517:

History of the Holocaust: A Handbook and Dictionary

241:

History of the Holocaust: A Handbook and Dictionary

170:

History of the Holocaust: A Handbook and Dictionary

4604:. No further edits should be made to this section. 3024:of 1990. Quite a name change, isn't it? Also, the 2881:people with physical and intellectual disabilities 2862:Offensive terms regarding people with disabilities 1388:, I could really use your help here. According to 2835:I think it would be prudent to order them by the 1598:Jewish resistance in Nazi-occupied Eastern Europe 2369:Nuremberg definition of crime against humanity. 1605:(That's a direct quote from a 40-year-old book). 706:sfn error: no target: CITEREFNiewykNicosia2000 ( 649:sfn error: no target: CITEREFNiewykNicosia2000 ( 1405:The problem is that numerous sources including 150:Final Solution: The Fate of the Jews 1933-1949 2448:File:Doctors' trial, Nuremberg, 1946–1947.jpg 1228:Jewish history of Zabłocie district of Żywiec 701: 644: 174:https://books.google.ca/books?id=ilnACY97x4kC 164:https://books.google.ca/books?id=d5MuAgAAQBAJ 154:https://books.google.ca/books?id=mimNBwAAQBAJ 8: 4202:Talk:The Holocaust/Archive 28#Requested move 3330:Semi-protected edit request on 29 April 2018 2884:people with physical and mental disabilities 1473:The Holocaust and Life Under Nazi Occupation 836:"Prologue to the Final Solution" chapter of 804:sfn error: no target: CITEREFLongerich2010 ( 3022:Individuals with Disabilities Education Act 2152:estimations for each category of victims). 1499:The Undivided Sky: The Holocaust on East... 1124:in spring of 1941, and in 1942 sent aboard 1039:"just days after it had been set in motion" 785:sfn error: no target: CITEREFCesarani2004 ( 766:sfn error: no target: CITEREFCesarani2016 ( 747:sfn error: no target: CITEREFCesarani2016 ( 725:sfn error: no target: CITEREFCesarani2016 ( 687:sfn error: no target: CITEREFCesarani2004 ( 668:sfn error: no target: CITEREFCesarani2004 ( 611:sfn error: no target: CITEREFCesarani2004 ( 592:sfn error: no target: CITEREFCesarani2016 ( 4846: 4008:The following is a closed discussion of a 3917: 3912:https://en.wikipedia.org/Holocaust_victims 3337: 3305: 3239:, that would might get the text changed. - 3210: 3029: 3018:Education for All Handicapped Children Act 2899: 2599:. For Soviet POWs - they mention Wytwycky 2500:the perpetrators, not the victims. Helm's 1981: 1924: 1826:study is just one, among other estimates. 1668: 1263:POLIN Museum of the History of Polish Jews 1112:in Browning's table). Jews didn't live in 630:sfn error: no target: CITEREFGerlach2016 ( 4446:" (without an article) has redirected to 1859:Because it doesn't say "15 to 20 million 1220: 1218: 799: 277:Odilo Globocnik, Hitler’s Man in the East 152:, St. Martin's Press, ISBN 1250037964 at 2188:where they can't be explained properly. 1052:(Oct. 1939) Total: 5,035 (Jews: 5,035); 818: 780: 761: 742: 720: 682: 663: 606: 587: 429:The Oxford Handbook of Holocaust Studies 4866: 4775:United States Holocaust Memorial Museum 3704: 3209:"HaSho'ah" meaning "The destruction". 1600:published by Reuben Ainsztein in 1974: 1433: 1173: 834:. Here's what Leni Yahil writes in the 625: 580: 3028:should speak for itself. /2018-02-22 2290:was another major Nuremberg execution. 1607:I am sure we can do better than that. 542: 531: 44:Do not edit the contents of this page. 3265:Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 2621:The Nazi Extermination of Homosexuals 1520:Busy for the next few days but check 172:, Westview Press, ISBN 0813322405 at 7: 4027:The result of the move request was: 2613:Secret Nazi Plans for Eastern Europe 1299: 1253:"Deportations to Auschwitz-Birkenau" 1190:. U of Nebraska Press. pp. 52, 109. 1048:there's a table of Nazi expulsions: 4648:That would be better placed in the 4324:it's like déjà vu all over again. ( 4278:calls for an article in this case? 4249:and extensive previous discussions 4107:calls for an article in this case? 4103:I did. Which of the two points in 1886:ok. Thanks for clearing that up. -- 1576:Anatomy of the Auschwitz Death Camp 914:functionalism versus intentionalism 491:Protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia 110:The Columbia Guide to the Holocaust 4820:) 13:47, 2 July 2018 (UTC) Done - 4810:Collaboration with the Axis Powers 3341:Federal Agency for Civic Education 327:. New York: Routledge. pp. 45–55. 24: 2883:- disabled and mentally ill : --> 1654:About the unique of the holocaust 1543:The Auschwitz Chronicle 1939-1945 1411:"shot while attempting to escape" 1258:Jewish history of Sucha Beskidzka 1030:The Origins of the Final Solution 987:The Origins of the Final Solution 4522:doesn't disambiguate anything. 4161:are two separate articles. But 2875:add "people with disabilities". 2048:What do you think? Personally I 2038:Here's what I am talking about: 1437: 1300: 985:110-11, 113-19, 120-5; Browning 162:, Routledge, ISBN 1135969574 at 29: 4762:In the first line of the lead, 4758:"...aided by its collaborators" 3026:Americans with disabilities act 4343:, as I do not see anything in 3964:Template:The Holocaust sidebar 3144:(1939-1941), their program of 2615:. Homosexuals are included in 1621:22:03, 29 September 2017 (UTC) 1588:21:23, 29 September 2017 (UTC) 1563:17:55, 25 September 2017 (UTC) 1533:16:58, 25 September 2017 (UTC) 1428:16:46, 25 September 2017 (UTC) 1336:21:36, 17 September 2017 (UTC) 1321:21:22, 17 September 2017 (UTC) 1291:20:11, 17 September 2017 (UTC) 1146:23:58, 16 September 2017 (UTC) 1118:transit ghetto and labour camp 1023:13:27, 14 September 2017 (UTC) 1010:21:36, 13 September 2017 (UTC) 977:20:45, 13 September 2017 (UTC) 944:19:34, 13 September 2017 (UTC) 925:Leni Yahil writes on page 327: 891:17:14, 13 September 2017 (UTC) 877:16:52, 13 September 2017 (UTC) 863:What do you think about this? 570:15:51, 13 September 2017 (UTC) 456:15:25, 13 September 2017 (UTC) 421:15:05, 13 September 2017 (UTC) 399:14:23, 13 September 2017 (UTC) 385:14:17, 13 September 2017 (UTC) 352:13:20, 13 September 2017 (UTC) 312:03:40, 12 September 2017 (UTC) 271:01:15, 12 September 2017 (UTC) 221:23:21, 11 September 2017 (UTC) 202:23:00, 11 September 2017 (UTC) 148:David Cesarani (Nov 8, 2016), 121:22:00, 11 September 2017 (UTC) 1: 4779:Pursuit of Nazi collaborators 4204:, nom makes no new arguments. 3339:The following figures of the 3198:19:18, 24 February 2018 (UTC) 3178:15:13, 24 February 2018 (UTC) 3130:20:21, 22 February 2018 (UTC) 3096:20:17, 22 February 2018 (UTC) 3082:20:12, 22 February 2018 (UTC) 3060:20:17, 22 February 2018 (UTC) 3044:07:40, 22 February 2018 (UTC) 2987:07:19, 22 February 2018 (UTC) 2973:05:50, 22 February 2018 (UTC) 2950:05:28, 22 February 2018 (UTC) 2939:05:18, 22 February 2018 (UTC) 2914:21:59, 20 February 2018 (UTC) 2857:22:59, 17 February 2018 (UTC) 2675:Introduction to the Holocaust 2412:There is a discussion at the 2028:02:49, 23 December 2017 (UTC) 2004:17:53, 22 December 2017 (UTC) 1988:17:42, 22 December 2017 (UTC) 1959:17:31, 22 December 2017 (UTC) 1943:17:20, 22 December 2017 (UTC) 1771:09:39, 20 November 2017 (UTC) 1395:"has been established so far" 991:Prelude to the Final Solution 983:Prelude to the Final Solution 515:Edelheit, Abraham J. (1994). 325:Encyclopedia of the Holocaust 245:Encyclopedia of the Holocaust 160:Encyclopedia of the Holocaust 4227:no new arguments presented. 3168:and his deformed right leg. 2878:Change all instances of to: 2809:19:13, 30 January 2018 (UTC) 2778:17:37, 30 January 2018 (UTC) 2748:17:30, 30 January 2018 (UTC) 2687:17:22, 30 January 2018 (UTC) 2656:17:13, 30 January 2018 (UTC) 2640:16:36, 30 January 2018 (UTC) 2589:15:55, 30 January 2018 (UTC) 2562:18:16, 25 January 2018 (UTC) 1896:20:32, 9 December 2017 (UTC) 1882:18:06, 9 December 2017 (UTC) 1873:17:37, 9 December 2017 (UTC) 1853:15:30, 9 December 2017 (UTC) 1835:15:21, 9 December 2017 (UTC) 1819:15:13, 9 December 2017 (UTC) 1805:15:05, 9 December 2017 (UTC) 1795:14:40, 9 December 2017 (UTC) 1759:Independent State of Croatia 1744:13:29, 23 October 2017 (UTC) 1725:13:26, 23 October 2017 (UTC) 1705:08:01, 12 October 2017 (UTC) 1450:. Prometheus Books. p. 334. 1092:people, of whom: 'At least' 168:Abraham J. Edelheit (1994), 108:report only 4700 deportees, 4389:. Note my examples below. 4274:Which of the two points in 3862:please explain basic facts. 2597:The Origin of Nazi Genocide 2540:00:03, 7 January 2018 (UTC) 2523:23:55, 6 January 2018 (UTC) 2487:23:30, 6 January 2018 (UTC) 2473:22:36, 6 January 2018 (UTC) 2460:22:27, 6 January 2018 (UTC) 2430:21:48, 6 January 2018 (UTC) 2392:17:16, 6 January 2018 (UTC) 2379:17:04, 6 January 2018 (UTC) 2364:19:22, 3 January 2018 (UTC) 2350:15:07, 2 January 2018 (UTC) 2336:07:48, 2 January 2018 (UTC) 2321:21:16, 1 January 2018 (UTC) 2299:19:28, 1 January 2018 (UTC) 2282:20:58, 1 January 2018 (UTC) 2267:19:22, 1 January 2018 (UTC) 2252:18:52, 1 January 2018 (UTC) 2231:05:15, 6 January 2018 (UTC) 2206:04:06, 6 January 2018 (UTC) 2180:01:50, 6 January 2018 (UTC) 2162:01:27, 6 January 2018 (UTC) 2132:01:20, 6 January 2018 (UTC) 2111:01:27, 6 January 2018 (UTC) 2084:01:13, 6 January 2018 (UTC) 2065:01:08, 6 January 2018 (UTC) 1683:22:42, 6 October 2017 (UTC) 1649:16:16, 4 October 2017 (UTC) 1476:. Rosen Publishing. p. 20. 1374:23:26, 3 October 2017 (UTC) 1362:21:23, 2 October 2017 (UTC) 1108:5 years ago (listed as the 561:Lublin reservation itself. 135:, the most deadly phase of 4943: 4808:I think we should link to 4498:Holocaust (disambiguation) 4169:) has the same meaning as 4001:Requested move 14 May 2018 3854:16:33, 30 April 2018 (UTC) 3831:07:56, 30 April 2018 (UTC) 3808:15:35, 29 April 2018 (UTC) 3753:14:44, 29 April 2018 (UTC) 3739:14:29, 29 April 2018 (UTC) 3324:12:58, 16 April 2018 (UTC) 3249:21:56, 28 March 2018 (UTC) 3229:21:52, 28 March 2018 (UTC) 2603:and Streit and Forster in 2493:Nazi human experimentation 2383:That works. Thanks, Joel. 1629:Holokost.news from Russia: 1409:himself employ the phrase 1367:I'll go ahead and add it. 1104:article which I wrote for 470: 4840:Ustashas allow conversion 4200:per previous decision at 4153:How do you figure that? 3792:, Frankfurt am Main 2006. 3290:12:57, 1 April 2018 (UTC) 3275:12:48, 1 April 2018 (UTC) 2671:The Holocaust and History 1204:Local Germans who had to 702:Niewyk & Nicosia 2000 645:Niewyk & Nicosia 2000 298:on page 153 in his book. 4861:16:15, 2 July 2018 (UTC) 4834:13:49, 2 July 2018 (UTC) 4803:12:32, 2 July 2018 (UTC) 4746:13:18, 2 July 2018 (UTC) 4702:19:24, 7 June 2018 (UTC) 4689:19:12, 7 June 2018 (UTC) 4661:15:42, 7 June 2018 (UTC) 4643:07:48, 7 June 2018 (UTC) 4597:Please do not modify it. 4582:12:36, 16 May 2018 (UTC) 4563:14:17, 15 May 2018 (UTC) 4541:02:14, 16 May 2018 (UTC) 4514:05:07, 15 May 2018 (UTC) 4487:04:39, 15 May 2018 (UTC) 4466:04:13, 15 May 2018 (UTC) 4400:04:13, 15 May 2018 (UTC) 4381:03:02, 15 May 2018 (UTC) 4357:01:27, 15 May 2018 (UTC) 4334:16:45, 14 May 2018 (UTC) 4313:11:51, 15 May 2018 (UTC) 4289:04:13, 15 May 2018 (UTC) 4267:11:58, 14 May 2018 (UTC) 4236:11:54, 14 May 2018 (UTC) 4218:07:04, 14 May 2018 (UTC) 4184:02:14, 16 May 2018 (UTC) 4149:06:29, 15 May 2018 (UTC) 4118:04:13, 15 May 2018 (UTC) 4096:06:51, 14 May 2018 (UTC) 4074:05:49, 14 May 2018 (UTC) 4045:23:17, 20 May 2018 (UTC) 4015:Please do not modify it. 3995:16:17, 14 May 2018 (UTC) 3980:11:35, 14 May 2018 (UTC) 3842:Nazi concentration camps 3767:Benz, Wolfgang (Hrsg.), 2890:people with disabilities 2605:The Policies of Genocide 1297:just brainstorming here. 4198:Oppose and speedy close 3952:15:51, 8 May 2018 (UTC) 3936:10:14, 4 May 2018 (UTC) 3893:14:10, 4 May 2018 (UTC) 3872:06:54, 4 May 2018 (UTC) 3781:Proudfoot, Malcolm J., 2609:The Forgotten Holocaust 1522:The Auschwitz Chronicle 1225:Andrzej Tepper (2015), 1182:Christopher R. Browning 1046:On page 109 in Browning 910:(Poprzeczny, page 160). 137:the Holocaust in Poland 3968:Template:The Holocaust 3962:The are two templates 3764:Here are the sources: 3146:involuntary euthanasia 2443: 1265:– via Internet Archive 1080:"3" (which included): 1060:"2" (which included): 485:territory governed by 3916:Regards, Aleksander 3235:If you can provide a 2442: 2435:Photo replacement ... 2286:Just chiming in that 2042:(my edit that was by 1470:Peter Darman (2012). 1380:The number of escapes 186:<ref name=""/: --> 42:of past discussions. 4029:no consensus to move 2889:- the disabled : --> 2837:number of casualties 1781:Here is the source: 1711:Origins - expulsions 1444:Rudolf Hoss (2012). 1098:Christopher Browning 918:He writes (pp. 6–7): 904:The Path to Genocide 4726:What do you think? 4434:Cultural Revolution 3858:If you write about 3344: 2601:The Other Holocaust 2497:The World Must Know 2446:I'd like to remove 2055:What do you think? 1572:Auschwitz Chronicle 1401:shot during pursuit 233:Preview this book » 4611:Homosexual numbers 3881:refeeding syndrome 3338: 2870:Suggested changes: 2623:by Rector. Bergen 2548:Start of Holocaust 2529:medical experiment 2444: 2237:Ribbentrop removal 2044:User talk:Ealdgyth 1130:Auschwitz-Birkenau 950:Lublin Reservation 832:Lublin Reservation 519:. Westview Press. 508:Lublin reservation 483:General Government 473:Lublin reservation 467:Lublin reservation 279:(ISBN 0786481463): 250:Lublin Reservation 235:" mode, not in a " 184:being a short for 133:Operation Reinhard 18:Talk:The Holocaust 4863: 4851:comment added by 4783:Wansee Conference 4766:its collaborators 4543: 4468: 4402: 4309: 4291: 4263: 4215: 4186: 4120: 4043: 3938: 3922:comment added by 3727: 3726: 3326: 3310:comment added by 3231: 3215:comment added by 3204:Translation Error 3196: 3128: 3080: 3046: 3034:comment added by 2971: 2970: 2948: 2937: 2936: 2916: 2904:comment added by 2807: 2746: 2654: 2617:The Pink Triangle 2587: 2471: 2319: 2272:formulating it). 2229: 2228: 2202: 2178: 2026: 2025: 1990: 1945: 1929:comment added by 1685: 1673:comment added by 1541:. Unfortunately, 1502:Springer. p. 67. 1372: 1360: 1110:Saybuscher Aktion 993:170-2; Longerich 496:Germanic settlers 437:978-0-19-966882-3 100: 99: 54: 53: 48:current talk page 4934: 4927: 4915: 4909: 4897: 4891: 4885: 4879: 4871: 4793: 4732: 4687: 4641: 4599: 4576: 4538: 4531: 4463: 4456: 4445: 4422:Rwandan Genocide 4397: 4390: 4310: 4307: 4303: 4301: 4286: 4279: 4264: 4261: 4257: 4255: 4206: 4181: 4174: 4115: 4108: 4059: 4039: 4017: 3838:relevant section 3785:, Illinois 1956. 3345: 3271: 3195: 3189: 3127: 3079: 3074: 2967: 2962: 2961: 2947: 2933: 2928: 2927: 2886:- disabled : --> 2806: 2745: 2653: 2625:War and Genocide 2586: 2567:Citation request 2470: 2318: 2309: 2296: 2288:Alfred Rosenberg 2225: 2220: 2219: 2203: 2200: 2196: 2194: 2177: 2022: 2017: 2016: 1918:Number of deaths 1618: 1612: 1560: 1554: 1547:Stalinist period 1513: 1512: 1496:R. Wolf (2010). 1493: 1487: 1486: 1467: 1461: 1460: 1441: 1425: 1419: 1371: 1359: 1318: 1312: 1305: 1304: 1303: 1267: 1266: 1245: 1239: 1238: 1222: 1213: 1212: 1178: 1143: 1137: 1126:Holocaust trains 999:Hitler's Hangman 997:455-7; Gerwarth 974: 968: 948:I worked on the 941: 935: 874: 868: 822: 816: 810: 809: 797: 791: 790: 778: 772: 771: 759: 753: 752: 740: 731: 730: 718: 712: 711: 699: 693: 692: 680: 674: 673: 661: 655: 654: 642: 636: 635: 623: 617: 616: 604: 598: 597: 585: 550: 544: 539: 537: 529: 481:district of the 441: 382: 376: 337: 309: 303: 268: 262: 199: 193: 187: 183: 78: 56: 55: 33: 32: 26: 4942: 4941: 4937: 4936: 4935: 4933: 4932: 4931: 4930: 4916: 4912: 4898: 4894: 4886: 4882: 4872: 4868: 4842: 4787: 4760: 4728: 4717: 4666: 4620: 4613: 4608: 4595: 4574: 4534: 4459: 4441: 4430:Rocky Mountains 4393: 4379: 4305: 4299: 4297: 4282: 4259: 4253: 4251: 4216: 4177: 4111: 4086:. Please read. 4055: 4013: 4003: 3960: 3905: 3815: 3771:, München 1996. 3741: 3332: 3273: 3269: 3259: 3257:Just to clarify 3237:reliable source 3206: 3183: 3166:Joseph Goebbels 3068: 2969: 2965: 2935: 2931: 2892:- and so on... 2864: 2827: 2569: 2550: 2491:Both photos in 2437: 2410: 2303: 2294:Seraphim System 2292: 2239: 2227: 2223: 2198: 2192: 2190: 2036: 2024: 2020: 1920: 1779: 1751: 1749:Genocidal state 1732: 1713: 1689:Sources please. 1656: 1631: 1616: 1610: 1558: 1552: 1517: 1516: 1509: 1495: 1494: 1490: 1483: 1469: 1468: 1464: 1457: 1443: 1442: 1435: 1423: 1417: 1382: 1316: 1310: 1301: 1270: 1247: 1246: 1242: 1224: 1223: 1216: 1197: 1180: 1179: 1175: 1141: 1135: 1122:Sucha Beskidzka 1102:Action Saybusch 972: 966: 952:article before. 939: 933: 872: 866: 826: 825: 817: 813: 803: 798: 794: 784: 779: 775: 765: 760: 756: 746: 741: 734: 724: 719: 715: 705: 700: 696: 686: 685:, pp. 280, 288. 681: 677: 667: 666:, pp. 259, 280. 662: 658: 648: 643: 639: 629: 624: 620: 610: 605: 601: 591: 586: 582: 540: 530: 526: 514: 504:Odilo Globocnik 475: 469: 438: 426: 380: 374: 334: 322: 307: 301: 296:"Judenvorstaat" 266: 260: 197: 191: 185: 181: 105: 74: 30: 22: 21: 20: 12: 11: 5: 4940: 4938: 4929: 4928: 4910: 4892: 4880: 4865: 4841: 4838: 4837: 4836: 4759: 4756: 4755: 4754: 4753: 4752: 4751: 4750: 4749: 4748: 4715: 4714: 4713: 4712: 4711: 4710: 4709: 4708: 4707: 4612: 4609: 4607: 4606: 4592:requested move 4586: 4585: 4584: 4566: 4565: 4547: 4546: 4545: 4544: 4490: 4489: 4470: 4469: 4406: 4405: 4404: 4403: 4375: 4360: 4359: 4337: 4336: 4319: 4318: 4317: 4316: 4315: 4239: 4238: 4221: 4220: 4205: 4194: 4193: 4192: 4191: 4190: 4189: 4188: 4187: 4124: 4123: 4122: 4121: 4050: 4048: 4025: 4024: 4010:requested move 4004: 4002: 3999: 3998: 3997: 3959: 3956: 3955: 3954: 3904: 3901: 3900: 3899: 3898: 3897: 3896: 3895: 3877: 3814: 3811: 3796: 3795: 3794: 3793: 3786: 3779: 3774:Pohl, Dieter, 3772: 3765: 3762: 3756: 3755: 3728: 3725: 3724: 3719: 3714: 3709: 3703: 3702: 3699: 3696: 3693: 3687: 3686: 3683: 3680: 3677: 3671: 3670: 3667: 3664: 3661: 3657: 3656: 3653: 3650: 3647: 3641: 3640: 3637: 3634: 3631: 3625: 3624: 3621: 3618: 3615: 3609: 3608: 3605: 3602: 3599: 3593: 3592: 3589: 3586: 3583: 3579: 3578: 3575: 3572: 3569: 3565: 3564: 3561: 3558: 3555: 3551: 3550: 3547: 3544: 3541: 3535: 3534: 3531: 3528: 3525: 3521: 3520: 3517: 3514: 3511: 3505: 3504: 3501: 3498: 3495: 3489: 3488: 3485: 3482: 3479: 3475: 3474: 3471: 3468: 3465: 3459: 3458: 3455: 3452: 3449: 3445: 3444: 3441: 3438: 3435: 3433:Czechoslovakia 3429: 3428: 3425: 3422: 3419: 3415: 3414: 3411: 3408: 3405: 3399: 3398: 3395: 3392: 3389: 3383: 3382: 3379: 3376: 3373: 3369: 3368: 3366: 3363: 3361: 3358: 3356: 3354: 3352: 3349: 3331: 3328: 3293: 3292: 3263: 3258: 3255: 3252: 3251: 3205: 3202: 3201: 3200: 3138: 3137: 3117: 3116: 3115: 3114: 3113: 3112: 3111: 3110: 3109: 3108: 3107: 3106: 3105: 3104: 3066: 3065: 3064: 3063: 3062: 3005: 3004: 3003: 3002: 3001: 3000: 2999: 2998: 2997: 2996: 2963: 2929: 2891: 2888: 2885: 2882: 2879: 2874: 2871: 2863: 2860: 2826: 2823: 2822: 2821: 2820: 2819: 2818: 2817: 2816: 2815: 2814: 2813: 2812: 2811: 2789: 2788: 2787: 2786: 2785: 2784: 2783: 2782: 2781: 2780: 2757: 2756: 2755: 2754: 2753: 2752: 2751: 2750: 2732: 2731: 2730: 2729: 2728: 2727: 2726: 2725: 2714: 2713: 2712: 2711: 2710: 2709: 2708: 2707: 2694: 2693: 2692: 2691: 2690: 2689: 2661: 2660: 2659: 2658: 2643: 2642: 2568: 2565: 2549: 2546: 2545: 2544: 2543: 2542: 2525: 2489: 2436: 2433: 2409: 2406: 2405: 2404: 2403: 2402: 2401: 2400: 2399: 2398: 2397: 2396: 2395: 2394: 2366: 2323: 2312:Trials section 2284: 2238: 2235: 2234: 2233: 2221: 2208: 2182: 2167: 2166: 2165: 2164: 2149: 2145: 2142: 2135: 2134: 2116: 2115: 2114: 2113: 2098: 2094: 2093: 2087: 2086: 2054: 2047: 2035: 2032: 2031: 2030: 2018: 2007: 2006: 1986:comment added 1962: 1961: 1919: 1916: 1915: 1914: 1913: 1912: 1911: 1910: 1909: 1908: 1907: 1906: 1905: 1904: 1903: 1902: 1901: 1900: 1899: 1898: 1778: 1775: 1774: 1773: 1755: 1750: 1747: 1731: 1728: 1712: 1709: 1708: 1707: 1693: 1690: 1655: 1652: 1630: 1627: 1626: 1625: 1624: 1623: 1593: 1592: 1591: 1590: 1566: 1565: 1515: 1514: 1507: 1488: 1481: 1462: 1455: 1432: 1431: 1381: 1378: 1377: 1376: 1353: 1352: 1351: 1350: 1349: 1348: 1347: 1346: 1345: 1344: 1343: 1342: 1341: 1340: 1339: 1338: 1269: 1268: 1249:Virtual Shtetl 1240: 1214: 1195: 1172: 1171: 1170: 1169: 1168: 1167: 1166: 1165: 1164: 1155: 1154: 1153: 1152: 1151: 1150: 1149: 1148: 946: 896: 895: 894: 893: 861: 860: 859: 843: 842: 824: 823: 811: 802:, pp. 156–159. 800:Longerich 2010 792: 773: 764:, pp. 261–263. 754: 732: 713: 694: 675: 656: 637: 618: 599: 579: 578: 577: 576: 575: 574: 573: 572: 553: 552: 524: 471:Main article: 468: 465: 464: 463: 462: 461: 458: 436: 423: 409: 405: 401: 369: 364: 363:controversial. 359: 358: 357: 356: 355: 354: 332: 292: 287: 281: 280: 273: 257:mean. Thanks, 228: 227: 226: 225: 224: 223: 177: 176: 166: 156: 145: 144: 104: 101: 98: 97: 92: 89: 84: 79: 72: 67: 62: 52: 51: 34: 23: 15: 14: 13: 10: 9: 6: 4: 3: 2: 4939: 4925: 4924: 4920: 4914: 4911: 4907: 4906: 4902: 4896: 4893: 4889: 4884: 4881: 4878: 4875: 4870: 4867: 4864: 4862: 4858: 4854: 4853:81.194.27.158 4850: 4839: 4835: 4831: 4827: 4823: 4819: 4815: 4811: 4807: 4806: 4805: 4804: 4800: 4796: 4791: 4785: 4784: 4780: 4776: 4772: 4768: 4767: 4757: 4747: 4744: 4740: 4736: 4733: 4731: 4725: 4724: 4723: 4722: 4721: 4720: 4719: 4718: 4706:Did you read? 4705: 4704: 4703: 4700: 4696: 4692: 4691: 4690: 4686: 4685: 4682: 4679: 4676: 4673: 4670: 4664: 4663: 4662: 4659: 4655: 4651: 4647: 4646: 4645: 4644: 4640: 4639: 4636: 4633: 4630: 4627: 4624: 4618: 4610: 4605: 4603: 4598: 4593: 4588: 4587: 4583: 4580: 4577: 4571: 4568: 4567: 4564: 4560: 4556: 4552: 4549: 4548: 4542: 4539: 4537: 4529: 4528:The Holocaust 4526:redirects to 4525: 4521: 4517: 4516: 4515: 4511: 4507: 4503: 4499: 4495: 4492: 4491: 4488: 4484: 4480: 4475: 4472: 4471: 4467: 4464: 4462: 4454: 4449: 4448:The Holocaust 4444: 4439: 4435: 4431: 4427: 4423: 4419: 4415: 4411: 4408: 4407: 4401: 4398: 4396: 4388: 4384: 4383: 4382: 4378: 4373: 4372:Malik Shabazz 4369: 4365: 4362: 4361: 4358: 4354: 4350: 4346: 4345:Knowledge:THE 4342: 4339: 4338: 4335: 4331: 4329: 4328: 4323: 4320: 4314: 4311: 4308: 4302: 4293: 4292: 4290: 4287: 4285: 4277: 4273: 4270: 4269: 4268: 4265: 4262: 4256: 4248: 4244: 4241: 4240: 4237: 4234: 4230: 4226: 4223: 4222: 4219: 4213: 4209: 4203: 4199: 4196: 4195: 4185: 4182: 4180: 4172: 4171:the Holocaust 4168: 4165:(without the 4164: 4160: 4156: 4152: 4151: 4150: 4146: 4142: 4141:In ictu oculi 4138: 4134: 4130: 4129: 4128: 4127: 4126: 4125: 4119: 4116: 4114: 4106: 4102: 4099: 4098: 4097: 4093: 4089: 4088:In ictu oculi 4085: 4081: 4078: 4077: 4076: 4075: 4071: 4067: 4063: 4058: 4053: 4052:The Holocaust 4047: 4046: 4042: 4038: 4034: 4030: 4023: 4021: 4016: 4011: 4006: 4005: 4000: 3996: 3992: 3988: 3984: 3983: 3982: 3981: 3977: 3973: 3969: 3965: 3958:Two templates 3957: 3953: 3949: 3945: 3941: 3940: 3939: 3937: 3933: 3929: 3925: 3921: 3914: 3913: 3908: 3902: 3894: 3890: 3886: 3882: 3878: 3875: 3874: 3873: 3869: 3865: 3861: 3857: 3856: 3855: 3851: 3847: 3843: 3839: 3835: 3834: 3833: 3832: 3828: 3824: 3820: 3812: 3810: 3809: 3805: 3801: 3791: 3787: 3784: 3780: 3777: 3773: 3770: 3766: 3763: 3760: 3759: 3758: 3757: 3754: 3751: 3747: 3743: 3742: 3740: 3736: 3732: 3723: 3720: 3718: 3715: 3713: 3710: 3708: 3705: 3700: 3697: 3694: 3692: 3689: 3688: 3684: 3681: 3678: 3676: 3673: 3672: 3668: 3665: 3662: 3659: 3658: 3654: 3651: 3648: 3646: 3643: 3642: 3638: 3635: 3632: 3630: 3627: 3626: 3622: 3619: 3616: 3614: 3611: 3610: 3606: 3603: 3600: 3598: 3595: 3594: 3590: 3587: 3584: 3581: 3580: 3576: 3573: 3570: 3567: 3566: 3562: 3559: 3556: 3553: 3552: 3548: 3545: 3542: 3540: 3537: 3536: 3532: 3529: 3526: 3523: 3522: 3518: 3515: 3512: 3510: 3507: 3506: 3502: 3499: 3496: 3494: 3491: 3490: 3486: 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2911: 2907: 2903: 2898:/2018-02-20 2896: 2893: 2876: 2868: 2861: 2859: 2858: 2854: 2850: 2846: 2843: 2842: 2838: 2833: 2832: 2824: 2810: 2805: 2801: 2800: 2799: 2798: 2797: 2796: 2795: 2794: 2793: 2792: 2791: 2790: 2779: 2776: 2772: 2767: 2766: 2765: 2764: 2763: 2762: 2761: 2760: 2759: 2758: 2749: 2744: 2740: 2739: 2738: 2737: 2736: 2735: 2734: 2733: 2722: 2721: 2720: 2719: 2718: 2717: 2716: 2715: 2706: 2702: 2701: 2700: 2699: 2698: 2697: 2696: 2695: 2688: 2685: 2681: 2676: 2672: 2667: 2666: 2665: 2664: 2663: 2662: 2657: 2652: 2647: 2646: 2645: 2644: 2641: 2638: 2634: 2630: 2626: 2622: 2619:by Plant and 2618: 2614: 2611:, Kamenetsky 2610: 2606: 2602: 2598: 2593: 2592: 2591: 2590: 2585: 2579: 2577: 2573: 2566: 2564: 2563: 2559: 2555: 2547: 2541: 2538: 2534: 2530: 2526: 2524: 2521: 2517: 2512: 2508: 2503: 2498: 2494: 2490: 2488: 2485: 2481: 2476: 2475: 2474: 2469: 2464: 2463: 2462: 2461: 2458: 2454: 2449: 2441: 2434: 2432: 2431: 2427: 2423: 2419: 2415: 2407: 2393: 2390: 2386: 2382: 2381: 2380: 2376: 2372: 2367: 2365: 2361: 2357: 2353: 2352: 2351: 2348: 2344: 2339: 2338: 2337: 2333: 2329: 2324: 2322: 2317: 2313: 2307: 2302: 2301: 2300: 2297: 2295: 2289: 2285: 2283: 2279: 2275: 2270: 2269: 2268: 2265: 2261: 2256: 2255: 2254: 2253: 2249: 2245: 2236: 2232: 2226: 2218: 2217: 2212: 2209: 2207: 2204: 2201: 2195: 2186: 2183: 2181: 2176: 2172: 2169: 2168: 2163: 2159: 2155: 2154:Karl.i.biased 2150: 2146: 2143: 2139: 2138: 2137: 2136: 2133: 2130: 2126: 2121: 2118: 2117: 2112: 2108: 2104: 2103:Karl.i.biased 2099: 2095: 2091: 2090: 2089: 2088: 2085: 2081: 2077: 2072: 2069: 2068: 2067: 2066: 2062: 2058: 2057:Karl.i.biased 2051: 2045: 2041: 2033: 2029: 2023: 2015: 2014: 2009: 2008: 2005: 2002: 1998: 1993: 1992: 1991: 1989: 1985: 1979: 1975: 1974:ShadowHawk555 1969: 1966: 1960: 1956: 1952: 1948: 1947: 1946: 1944: 1940: 1936: 1932: 1931:ShadowHawk555 1928: 1917: 1897: 1893: 1889: 1885: 1884: 1883: 1880: 1876: 1875: 1874: 1871: 1867: 1862: 1858: 1857: 1856: 1855: 1854: 1850: 1846: 1842: 1838: 1837: 1836: 1833: 1829: 1824: 1823: 1822: 1821: 1820: 1816: 1812: 1808: 1807: 1806: 1803: 1799: 1798: 1797: 1796: 1792: 1788: 1784: 1776: 1772: 1768: 1764: 1760: 1756: 1753: 1752: 1748: 1746: 1745: 1741: 1737: 1729: 1727: 1726: 1722: 1718: 1710: 1706: 1702: 1698: 1694: 1691: 1688: 1687: 1686: 1684: 1680: 1676: 1675:213.57.205.60 1672: 1665: 1662: 1659: 1653: 1651: 1650: 1646: 1642: 1637: 1628: 1622: 1619: 1614: 1613: 1606: 1603: 1599: 1596:According to 1595: 1594: 1589: 1586: 1582: 1577: 1573: 1570: 1569: 1568: 1567: 1564: 1561: 1556: 1555: 1548: 1544: 1540: 1536: 1535: 1534: 1531: 1527: 1523: 1519: 1518: 1510: 1505: 1501: 1500: 1492: 1489: 1484: 1479: 1475: 1474: 1466: 1463: 1458: 1453: 1449: 1448: 1440: 1439: 1434: 1430: 1429: 1426: 1421: 1420: 1412: 1408: 1404: 1402: 1396: 1391: 1387: 1379: 1375: 1370: 1366: 1365: 1364: 1363: 1358: 1337: 1334: 1330: 1326: 1325: 1324: 1323: 1322: 1319: 1314: 1313: 1298: 1294: 1293: 1292: 1289: 1285: 1280: 1279: 1278: 1277: 1276: 1275: 1274: 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676: 671: 665: 664:Cesarani 2004 660: 657: 652: 646: 641: 638: 633: 627: 622: 619: 614: 608: 607:Cesarani 2004 603: 600: 595: 589: 588:Cesarani 2016 584: 581: 571: 568: 564: 559: 558: 557: 556: 555: 554: 551:</ref: --> 548: 535: 527: 522: 518: 513: 512: 511: 509: 505: 501: 497: 492: 488: 484: 480: 474: 466: 459: 457: 454: 450: 446: 439: 434: 430: 424: 422: 419: 415: 410: 406: 402: 400: 397: 393: 388: 387: 386: 383: 378: 377: 370: 368: 365: 361: 360: 353: 350: 346: 341: 335: 333:1-57958-307-5 330: 326: 320: 315: 314: 313: 310: 305: 304: 297: 293: 291: 288: 286: 283: 282: 278: 274: 272: 269: 264: 263: 255: 254:strikethrough 251: 246: 242: 238: 234: 230: 229: 222: 219: 215: 211: 210: 207: 206: 205: 204: 203: 200: 195: 194: 179: 178: 175: 171: 167: 165: 161: 157: 155: 151: 147: 146: 142: 138: 134: 130: 125: 124: 123: 122: 119: 115: 111: 103:Nisko plan... 102: 96: 93: 90: 88: 85: 83: 80: 77: 73: 71: 68: 66: 63: 61: 58: 57: 49: 45: 41: 40: 35: 28: 27: 19: 4922: 4918: 4913: 4904: 4900: 4895: 4883: 4869: 4847:— Preceding 4843: 4786: 4763: 4761: 4729: 4683: 4680: 4677: 4674: 4671: 4668: 4637: 4634: 4631: 4628: 4625: 4622: 4614: 4596: 4589: 4569: 4550: 4535: 4519: 4493: 4479:Paul Siebert 4473: 4460: 4409: 4394: 4363: 4340: 4326: 4321: 4296: 4283: 4250: 4242: 4224: 4197: 4178: 4166: 4132: 4112: 4079: 4049: 4028: 4026: 4014: 4007: 3961: 3944:Prinsgezinde 3918:— Preceding 3915: 3909: 3906: 3859: 3818: 3816: 3797: 3789: 3782: 3775: 3768: 3721: 3716: 3711: 3706: 3387:Russian SFSR 3333: 3306:— Preceding 3302: 3298: 3294: 3260: 3253: 3211:— Preceding 3207: 3162: 3158: 3154: 3150: 3139: 3120: 3118: 3030:— Preceding 2992: 2957: 2923: 2900:— Preceding 2897: 2894: 2877: 2869: 2865: 2847: 2844: 2840: 2834: 2830: 2828: 2670: 2628: 2624: 2620: 2616: 2612: 2608: 2604: 2600: 2596: 2580: 2570: 2551: 2501: 2496: 2445: 2414:Village Pump 2411: 2293: 2240: 2215: 2210: 2189: 2184: 2170: 2119: 2070: 2049: 2037: 2012: 1970: 1967: 1963: 1925:— Preceding 1921: 1860: 1839: 1780: 1733: 1714: 1669:— 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