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in Cairo is similar to
Safavid allience with The west, more important that ibn Khaldun in his memoirs narrated that He don't respect Abbas and his household even He only respect Ali and his household, His destroying and lotting of Damascus, and even some historians notes that He has destroyed Mu'awiyah's tomb all of this will let us consider him as Pro-Shia even if He don't curse 3 Caliphs and even if we don't consider him as main sect of Twelvers thought his era was full of Pro-Shia Sufis who considers all of the Twelve Imams as true caliphs of Islam even Timurids in an unknown considered their dynasty as Alid Dynasty back to Muhammad ibn Ali ibn Abi Talib and the tomb stone of Timur is an evidence for that Alid connection with Alanqua and this Alid ancestor is a mysterious one, maybe they once considered him as the Twelfth Imam himself not a descendant of Muhammad ibn al Hanafiyah the famous Hero in middle ages.
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letters to
Muzaffarids he claims the Throne of Iran clearly and suggests to Muzaffarids to Open the the way for the Dignity of Iran (Timur). 3rd document about Iranian Prajudice of Timur is his biography book by the pen of his Iranian Lord Chancellor Nizam-i-din Shami who was originally from Tabriz . Inside Zafarnamah on page 10 in the last Paragraph he writes a Poem for timur and Calls him Shah_e_Darvishdoost means king protector of people and serfs Then the author proceeds and says Iran and Turan are under his Command. Here's the original poem :
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Million victims. - In "Tamerlane: Sword of Islam, Conqueror of the World", the author Justin
Marozzi (2004) estimates that Timur's conquests caused the death of 20 Million victims. - In "Armies of the Ottoman Turks, 1300–1774.", the author David Nicolle (1983) estimates that Timur's conquests caused the death of 17 Million victims.
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2821:, I am restoring the stable version then (the reconstruction one). 'As an Indian leader'? Timur has been depicted as a Turk (see the painting, there is no resemblance to the Indians), the painting was made under an Indian emperor (of the Timurid line), but Timur himself has not been depicted as Indian.
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There is a little evidence that He was Sunni but not all of historians consider him as Sunni, Sunni
Historians in Ottoman and Mamlukid Empires like Ibn Khaldun and Ibn Arabshah consider him as Rafedi even his allience with Christians in the west against Ottomans, Mamlukids and even Abbasid Caliphate
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The sources regarding the estimates of victims of Timur's campaigns are missing and shall be completed. Here are the three most recent and recognised references: - In "The
History of the Mongol Conquests", John Joseph Saunders (1971) the author estimates that Timur's conquests caused the death of 17
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A genocide is defined as "the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group." Systematic killing of populations as performed by Timur in several cases, including Delhi, Armenian territories, etc. corresponds to
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In his childhood, Timur and a small band of followers raided travelers for goods, especially animals such as sheep, horses, and cattle. Around 1363, it is believed that Timur tried to steal a sheep from a shepherd but was shot by two arrows, one in his right leg and another in his right hand, where
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If I am correct then the translation was from 1859 and at the time balochs didn't know
English and per sandeman despatches they conserved in hindustani with him to communciate meaning the book was translated by a British scholar at the time.Sir Clements Robert Markham translated the page not to
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Timur ancestors were From Barlas tribe which are from
Eastern turks like Uygurs & Karluks . But his mother is Iranian and according to his forged family tree for his mother he connects his mother blood line to Epic Iranian Shah of Shahnameh (book of the kings) Mannouchehr . According to his
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Did Timur really kill 17 million people? That is, 5% of the world's population at the time? The source appears to be a 1999 Chicago
Tribune article, but the figure seems very hard to believe. It's an incredible figure for 14th-century weapons. I am removing it. No precise figure should be added
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Simply naming this article "Timur" is ignorant of the conventionally used name for this individual (whom is often called either Timur-e Lang or
Timurlane, either will suffice.) within modern English. I request that this page be renamed to one of the 2 formerly suggested names above.
3062:, so it has scholarly backing on that front. Nevertheless, I find the facial reconstruction image far more striking and recognizable, and I have yet to see a good argument against it—"we don't usually use them" is considerably less convincing when you remember we don't usually
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The figures mentioned in the summary shall be updated to 20 Million as the higher limit. Suggested wording would be: "Estimates vary from 1 to 20 million with several
Historian estimating the total number of victims to be around 17 Millions." with the above mentioned sources.
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By about 1360, Timur had gained prominence as a military leader whose troops were mostly Turkic tribesmen of the region. He took part in campaigns in Transoxiana with the Khan of the Chagatai Khanate. Allying himself both in cause and by family connection with
2727:, you seem to be the largest contributor to this article. May I ask why might you have reverted my edit? We don't normally use a facial reconstruction from the skull of the subject as the image in the infobox, instead we usually use paintings or portraits.
2234:...okay? Still doesn't change the basic fact that an 1859 translation of a medieval text which claims that Timur managed to teleport from the Oxus to Sistan to the Arabian Sea in 1362, when he was no more than a warlord, is nothing less than nonsense.
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2371:"Well, he might have headed into central Sistan, and then he might have headed into southern Sistan, and then he might have headed south of southern Sistan, and then he might have reached the sea, and then he might have teleported back again."
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If I am correct then the translation was from 1859 and at the time balochs didn't know English and per sandeman despatches they conserved in hindustani with him to communciate meaning the book was translated by a British scholar at the time
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I too am in favor of the depiction from the Zafarnama. I think facial reconstructions or statues are only acceptable as lead images in biography articles in cases where no contemporary or near-contemporary depiction exists. —
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Facial reconstruction from a skull is more of an art than a science. The depiction from the Zafarnama was presumably drawn by someone who saw Timur with their own eyes, or at least by consultation with someone who did. —
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is a third party to this source meaning he is neutral rather then pro timur or pro baloch , also I would like you to present some sources contradicting him which could imply the source of his work is unreliable for now.
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It's true that the current one in the infobox may be more well-known, but if there are contemporary/near contemporary depictions that exist I believe that is better, and as you mentioned, there is scholarly backing to
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Personally in line with the previous edits, I've added the better near contemporary portrait instead. Using a 1707 one would not be better, (and possibly not the facial reconstruction). So I support this revision.
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I mean, not to disrespect you, but these kind of names were given to all kind of tyrants. I'm not sure how appropriate this is since, Timur doesn't even identify like that unlike "Lord of Aspicious Conjuction".
2369:"he might as well headed for sistan most likely the northern region of zaboul" oh I see we've decided to completely forgotten about the source saying he reached the Arabian Sea. Anyone mind explaining how?
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Amir Timur was born in Hoja Ilgor, Yakkabag region. Your info him being born in Shahrisabz is wrong. His graveyard is also in same village where he was born. I will request a picture of his shrine.
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It does not matter if he is a third party. He was a Castilian who spent two months in Samarkand in 1404. That means he is not a reliable source. If you want to know why, read the links above.
3008:, Well, I can't disagree with you there, Timur does look a bit like half-Turk, half-Indian, and Babur and Humayun do look way more Asiatic. Perhaps, it better to stick to the reconstruction.
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Sir Clements Robert Markham translated the page not to mention that Baluch Nationalism started in 1920s and 1930s thus I don't think it is biased not to mention that it was published by
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Sir Clements Robert Markham translated the page not to mention that Baluch Nationalism started in 1920s and 1930s thus I don't think it is biased not to mention that it was published by
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argued it's of poor quality, but I'd disagree, the picture itself is informative (on being a portrait/depiction of Timur), and it's a near contemporary depiction.
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at the head of a thousand horsemen. This was the second military expedition that he led, and its success led to further operations, among them the subjugation of
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Would you care to rewrite your comments so they are a) intelligible and b) in one paragraph, rather than five seperate comments? Really helps with collaboration.
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He was not muslim, He is Nasiry one of the Shia. According to all scholars of Islam, He ruled with genkiz khan rules only and he wasn't a muslim. Please fix it
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Personally, I don't think those reconstructions are accurate, but that's imo the most common pic used everywhere, and even all statues are based on that face.
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According to the wiki page in 1360 Timur lead 1000 horsemen to invade Persia and he might as well headed for sistan most likely the northern region of zaboul
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The other one has a higher resolution, but you this one to me looks better as it has more detail than the other one. Let's see what the others think @
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Excellent use of Google. Now that I know you're capable of reasoned thought, would you mind reading the links HistoryofIran posted above? Thanks.
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he lost two fingers. Both injuries disabled him for life. Some believe that these injuries occurred while serving as a mercenary to the khan of
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who claimed Russian miniatures were kinda better because Tatars weren't Asiatic looking, but Ottoman miniatures showed them Asiatic.
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mention that Baluch Nationalism started in 1920s and 1930s thus I don't think it is biased not to mention that it was published by
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Facial reconstructions can give us an idea, but who knows about his skin and hair, etc. I don't think it's 100% accurate, but
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So you claim 1700 depiction of Timur as an Indian leader is correct? Also the reconstruction had been discussed before.
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It seems to be reliably attested in many sources, not sure what you mean "given by whom?" (Referring to the epithet).
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Timur Was half Turkic half Iranian according to the sources . He was known himself as the Shahanshah of Iran and Turan
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I don't understand, why not have a reconstruction of Timur's face? It's the closest thing we get to how he looked.
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I mean this looks definitely Indian. Of course I know that Mughals are not Indian originally. You get what I mean.
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Hello , I hope your doing fine and enjoying a nice time. Could you tell me why you reverted my edit on Timur Khan
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Yes, thanks for remembering which page we're discussing. Would you mind remembering where the Arabian Sea is
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Can we compare this to Sahib-i Qiran? I wonder what's the original version of this, if you can provide it.
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I am awaiting a response otherwise I would need to revert the edit , I request you to respond in 24 hours
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I'm not opposed to it, but that one seems to be of weaker/less quality then the other Zafarnama one.
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Although I am not Beshogur, I suspect it's because an 1859 translation of a medieval text is not a
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for that content in the latter page, and it must not be deleted as long as the latter page exists.
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I'm personally in favor of the one from the Zafarnama, (in the revision I pointed out). @
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the definition of genocide. It shall be referenced as such for the sake of consistency.
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also part of bigger miniature, even Babur (third left) looks more Asiatic than Timur
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Thoughts? I don't know how to find this original sculpture, any Russian speaker?
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just checked that, it's poorly sourced actually, page nrs are not even present.
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863 km and 8 days of walking can get you there like from zaboul to chah bahar
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Once again requesting a name change to a more colloquially common translation
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This article has been viewed enough times in a single week to appear in the
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So it seems to just come down to on whether which one we think is better.
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1713:. However the terminology is apparently new. Otherwise I'll revert back.
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Yeah, these stories are nonsense. Like Chechens defeating him, etc.
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Well he's depicted as a Mughal ruler, both clothing and facially.
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Sure, I can try to look for it. As of now, I've only seen it in
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can give you an idea. (see no hair version; I'd personally use
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Its on the coast of Baluchistan , Sindh and Part of Gujarat
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why? you know that doesn't mean it's more accurate, right?
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Also there was a similar discussion with an user regarding
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Or Tamerlane as Timurlane is actually less common my bad.
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Indeed. More to the point, it's 1000km away from Zaboul.
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If I remenber correctly at the time he served in Iran?
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It's a poor quality one though. Not much informative.
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This article has been checked against the following
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2554:of course to document he has to spent time there
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3235:...and you would call that a science, or an art?
3054:) uses what appears to be a zoomed-in version of
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46:for general discussion of the article's subject.
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32:This is the
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2418:Afghanistan
1220:Middle Ages
1161:Middle Ages
1100:discussions
1079:Iran portal
781:Afghanistan
769:is part of
761:Asia portal
600:Structure:
269:section on
266:On this day
161:free images
44:not a forum
3323:Categories
3056:this image
2624:|answered=
1887:Shia Islam
1850:|answered=
1821:Death toll
1770:Helen Fein
1575:Disability
1570:discussion
1538:Disability
1104:open tasks
1025:April 2012
809:Uzbekistan
797:Tajikistan
789:Kyrgyzstan
785:Kazakhstan
3154:Noorullah
3086:Noorullah
3060:Zafarnama
2959:Noorullah
2761:Noorullah
2661:Not done:
2395:Noorullah
1991:Noorullah
1954:Noorullah
1628:this edit
484:Biography
401:Biography
337:Biography
306:is rated
261:Main Page
101:if needed
84:Be polite
34:talk page
3273:Beshogur
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2006:Beshogur
1983:Beshogur
1969:Beshogur
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1808:Beshogur
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1752:contribs
1744:As97wiki
1740:unsigned
1715:Beshogur
1697:Genocide
1166:Crusades
821:Pakistan
813:Xinjiang
793:Mongolia
561:criteria
488:Medieval
220:365Â days
199:Archives
69:get help
42:This is
40:article.
2723:Hello @
2426:Persian
2281:Urgench
2212:Alright
1944:Epithet
1802:CJ-Moki
1786:CJ-Moki
1632:history
1500:on the
1468:Mongols
1425:Mongols
1376:on the
1247:on the
1136:on the
981:on the
891:History
861:on the
308:C-class
263:in the
167:WPÂ refs
155:scholar
3223:Goszei
3172:Goszei
2988:Goszei
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2705:Sidd89
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2410:Sistan
2345:WP:PST
1707:Attila
1681:(20th)
1459:Mongol
825:Russia
314:scale.
139:Google
2628:|ans=
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1987:WP:RS
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1844:This
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954:India
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886:India
801:Tibet
767:Timur
458:page.
295:This
182:JSTOR
143:books
97:Seek
38:Timur
3306:talk
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1492:High
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1109:Iran
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