Talk:Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol

2888: 1331:

a little bit odd. I think we are probably going nowhere and both articles will remain where they are (and as I wrote many times, I'm not happy with it because the hyphen in "Province of Bolzano-Bozen" is a misleading mistake). I will accept any consensus and, as most of you know, I'm a peaceful and honest editor. The only thing I find difficult to accept is how 76.89.129.139/Icsunonove was blocked. In 2007-2009 he was sometimes aggressive and offensive, but this time he was simply expressing his/her opinion in a colorful way. It is a very sad day for Knowledge (XXG). --

1488:

Adige/Südtirol and I assume in the future many English publications will adopt the name as it is now the sole official name c) however I also take in consideration that the region is made up of the two provinces of Trentino and South Tyrol, with the region today being an empty political shell with its former executive and legislative powers devolved to the two component provinces and d) as this is the English wikipedia I believe we should stick with English, which would mean that both Alto Adige and Südtirol be ineligible for the name... In short:

2035:: Any solution is better than the title we have now. As Gryffindor said "Trentino-Alto Adige" is Italian but (I add commonly) used in English, "Trentino-South Tyrol" is English and the sum of the two provinces (I add less common). Südtirol is German but the problem is that it is not used in English. Why do we have it in the title? That makes no sense to me (and according to any convention). The Italian Constitution does not count (otherwise we must move Italy to Italia or Repubblica Italiana). If we want a compromise, then it cannot be but 2468: 2419: 254: 2085:

clearly Trentino-Alto Adige. As to the alleged decline, Trentino-Alto Adige is still used 10 times more often than Trentino-South Tyrol. But as I said, even Trentino-South Tyrol would be better than the solution we have now, which blatantly goes against English usage. English usage is Trentino-Alto Adige in first place and Trentino-South Tyrol in second place. We should not invent artificial titles which are used by nobody but Knowledge (XXG), which must instead reflect common usage.--

392: 2999:

assume there is a commune with 4 ladins, 4 mocheni and 4 cimbri (combined 12 minority-speakers), which is missing in the above document, and as the map shows language-ranges in steps of 10%, this commune can only be missing, if those 12 persons account for more than 10%, and thus the commune has at most 119 inhabitants. Such a small commune does not exist in Trentino (the smallest being Palù del Fersina with 169 inhabitants, where 93% declared mocheno btw.).--

2976:) and were only shortly rewritten. Anyway, in linguistics Mocheno and Cimbrian are still typically classified as German dialects and I don't see any kind of "original research" by Sajoch. The map provides the information where Mocheno and Cimbrian are spoken and reflects therefor the census. What Sajoch did is using a similar colour for Mocheno, Cimbrian and South Tyrolean German (which is linguistically justified) and subsuming them in the caption. 2182:

have to break the cycle of naming and renaming debates and the only way I can see to achieve it is by applying one and the same standard throughout the entire debate. Although "Alto Adige" is, unlike "South Tyrol", a purely Italian name, it appears to be nonetheless much more common in English usage as far as the region Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol is concerned. Since the naming convention is not about where names originally come from, but

413: 502: 2248:

That makes no sense and it goes against the common usage rule. Sorry, but we cannot hold a poll to subvert wikipedia standards. I repeat for the nth time: this is not a democracy. Any alternative is better than the clumsy hybrid Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol, for the simple reason that its usage in English is extremely limited if not totally absent. Unless we want to operate double standards.--

308: 287: 245: 2039:. But I do not see why we should search for a new compromise or keep the present compromise here, whereas in the case of South Tyrol a compromise was even adversed with the argument that German and Italian interest count zero. Why should we apply double standards? Therefore I think we should apply the same rule which prevailed in order to rename South Tyrol and Trentino: 318: 2660:

is the majority language in South Tyrol. And I think there would be a problem with Trentino-Alto Adige/South Tyrol. That would translate the German name of South Tyrol but not the Italian name. If we want to include "South Tyrol" to the article name, then it should be Trentino-South Tyrol because Alto Adige is just South Tyrol in Italian. --

1912:/Icsunonove/76.89.129.139 started his campaign by plastering every discussion full of his POV did we agree to compromise to the official double-name given in the Italian constitution. This was accepted by everyone including Taalo, who then proceeded to the other article "South Tyrol" to have that moved, but that's another story... 423: 786:— The current title was a compromise between Italian- and German-speaking interests. Titles in the English Knowledge (XXG), however, should reflect English usage whenever possible. Knowledge (XXG) also disfavors dual-name titles. Here, the evidence strongly shows that the most common name of this region 722:: Art. 116. (2) "Il Friuli Venezia Giulia , la Sardegna, la Sicilia, il Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol e la Valle d’Aosta/Valle´e d’Aoste dispongono di forme e condizioni particolari di autonomia, secondo i rispettivi statuti speciali adottati con legge costituzionale (3)." And thus ended this discussion. 2181:

I won't make a secret out of my deep dislike for the invented name "Alto Adige" and how it was purposefully created to destroy German-Tyrolean culture south of the Brenner, but we have to remain consistent in our standards if we don't want to lay the seeds for yet another discussion in the future. We

1826:

To a certain extent such a floating concept of consensus makes sense. On the other hand, it ignores the amount of time and effort and also good will which are invested into mediation: a simple vote with a few users could nullify a monumental month long effort by a large group of editors. Wouldn't you

1585:

Here, it seems that everyone agrees that "Trentino-Alto Adige" is the most common name in English-language sources. So even though an English term - "South Tyrol" - exists for part of the region's name, it should not be used in the article title. If some other name becomes used more often in English,

696:

I don't understand how it is possible we have to discuss the name of this page when the official name of the region is written in the Italian Constitution Law. My proposal is to rename to "Trentino-Alto Adige", a simple copy and paste from the Italian Constitution. Not using the proper name is a gift

2403:

I agree with you (and most others), that the article should be renamed to "Trentino-South Tyrol", but due to different opinions it was subject to mediation in October 2006. Please see above. There's hardly any reference to the regions name, sources mostly talk about one of the two provinces Trentino

2247:

For 4 years we had province of Bolzano-Bozen as title for South Tyrol. 4 years without edit wars, 4 years of (at least implicit) consensus. It was decided to change it according to common usage. I have no problem with that. But in the case of Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol things seem to be immutable.

2213:

We need no mediation. This whole vote goes against conventions and cannot be regarded as valid. Trentino Alto-Adige is used more often in English. Such as South Tyrol is used more often than Alto Adige, which is why the constitutional name Alto Adige/Südtirol was rejected and any possible compromise

1907:

can apply if there is no controversy to the name (clearly there was and is), and where is the clause that states it overrules the aforementioned two rules? The name "Trentino-Alto Adige" is not an English but an Italian word that is used in English, whereas the term "Trentino-South Tyrol" is English

1877:

in case the earlier mediation effort turns out to be more binding than it now appears. Mediations are an important part of the WP problem solving procedure and undermining their significance and binding nature would have an undesirable adverse effect on the stability of article names. We must aim at

1436:

the region has become an empty administrative entity (I call it a zombie), since all powers (administration, legislation, finance, ...) were devolved to the two provinces of Trentino and South Tyrol. So there are hardly any new documents being produced about this anachronistic entity. That's why we

1330:

includes many truths. I don't say it from an Italian standpoint because I don't identify myself as an Italian. Some users in opposition of this move are using arguments which are very inconsistent to their arguments in the other discussion. They are completely free to do it, but their arguments look

3102:

Of course not. You created some useful map, but you also created maps that simply do not correspond to what the sources say. The maps you created using the Italian census 2011 are not correct and should be therefore removed here. We already have much better ones. In fact, we are discussing about if

2659:

I think the article name should be either Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol or Trentino-South Tyrol. Like mentioned in the earlier move discussion, Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol is used in the Italian constitution, and it would be a compromise between the Italian and German languages, the latter of which

1487:

this move request is awkward as is the current name... a) the most common name in English is Trentino-Alto Adige for it was the official name since World War II until the new name was introduced in the Italian constitution in 2001, b) but all official publications now use the new name Trentino-Alto

2598:

If the final name is to be Trentino-South Tyrol (sounds more English), Trentino-Alto Adige (is more common) or Trentino-Alto Adige/South Tyrol (common and sounds English) needs to be assessed. For sure, Trentino-South Tyrol is miles better than Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol. I even would suggest to

1831:

consensus more than five users voting on the same issue only a couple of months later? And, if the voting is done repeatedly and at the 'right time', as we have seen at the South Tyrol article, it may even acquire outright the air of misuse. Since WP is run by and dependent on men who, as anybody,

3313:

As I said, I'm not referring to the title of the article, but to what is mentioned several time in it. Personally, I think it's ok to refer to those provinces with the names that are used at the moment, but I do think that also the official names should be added, at least once, not to confuse the

2084:

We must follow common usage, as we did in the case of South Tyrol and Trentino. No double standards please. By the way, Trentino is also pure Italian, it is not a compromise, it is common usage. We need no mediation (Knowledge (XXG) is not a democracy) if common usage is clear: in this case it is

2065:

I can follow your reasoning, which results in "Trentino-Alto Adige". But "Trentino-Alto Adige" is a pure italian name, neither english, nor a compromise between italian/german, nor does it respect the mediation outcome, nor does it take into account that the mentioning of this region is declining

3271:

Hello! I am Italian, and I am just a bit confused about the name of the provinces that are mentioned several times in this page. You always take into consideration 2 provinces, which you name "Trentino" and "South Tyrol", while, actually, the official names should be "Trento" and "Bolzano/Bozen"

2998:

The document I took the data from, and we all are referring to, lists all communes with more than 4 persons declaring a minority language. And as no commune has less than 40 inhabitants, it's correct to assume, that there aren't any communes with less than 90% italian speaking people. Even if we

1751:

I am totally sucking in WikiLawyering, but it seems to me fairly clear that a decision by a mediation committee should only be revised by a mediation committee (or even a higher authority) as courts verdicts in RL can only be lifted by a higher court. Otherwise, what would have been the point in

1811:

As I stated above, the region is of no interest to the average english user. It's only an empty administrative shell, and thus could/should remain at its administrative/official name. Maybe in a few years, when there will be enough sources that endorse the name "Trentino/South Tyrol", we could

1249:

than "Trentino-South Tyrol" - let alone the current title, which is hardly used at all in English. Perhaps usage is changing, and one day "Trentino-South Tyrol" will surpass "Trentino-Alto Adige". But that day has not yet arrived, and Knowledge (XXG) does not predict usage - it reflects current

2906:

15° Censimento della popolazione e delle abitazioni Rilevazione sulla consistenza e la dislocazione territoriale degli appartenenti alle popolazioni di lingua ladina, mòchena e cimbra = 15th census of population and housing Enquiry about the number and the location of those who belong to the

2540:

Even if I think we should care more about the content, which is severely omissive with respect to history of the region between 1943 and 1988, than about the title, any solution is definitely better than artificial and exotic Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol. Trentino-Alto Adige works very well,

1770:

can change. Read that page, if you never have - it's pretty interesting. What I took away from it is that even things like the mediation committee are just tools in the consensus-building process. And if conditions change, if editors change, anything can be revisited. That's the beauty (and

3514:

The region is called this For the two provinces that are within this region in the South there is Trentino while in the North there is South Tyrol which in Italian is called Alto Adige therefore since in English the province is called South Tyrol the name Correct English of this region is

2452:

You really should re-read the above discussion. This page is on many people's radar, and I suspect another endlesses discussion will follow. Though the new view-point you bring against "Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol" is, that it gives a wrong impression that there may be two names...

1107:

I think you mean that the new name only became official with the amendment of the constitution in 2002 (or was it 2001?) and since then the old name Trentino-Alto Adige is not used anymore. Please correct me if I remember the dates of the official introduction of the new name wrong.

1350:

I appreciate you being peaceful, Checco, but whining about Icsunonove is off-topic here. BTW: I too was in favor of changing the hyphen to a slash: i voted for it. It would have been a small, but necessary correction. But now that we are asked to fix the bigger picture, I'm all for

2043:. There is no need to make any poll - I even think it would not be allowed according to policies -, the data provided show quite clearly that Trentino-Alto Adige is the most common name in English. Trentino Alto Adige is still used ten times more often than Trentino-South Tyrol. 987:

if you have not done so already. I am not interested in roling this up again since we came to a majority agreement after long and tedious discussions and the current name was the consensus that was reached. And I intend to keep the agreement that was reached by all parties.

521: 2555:

I'm glad, Patavium agrees using "Trentino-South Tyrol". The only problem remains, that "Trentino-South Tyrol" isn't used much in literature. My advise: there's no hurry: the region is a topic of modest relevance - and the single provinces use already their correct

1429:

was allowed in official documents (fascist laws still apply). That's also why road signs had to show those italian names, and that's why road maps like TeleAtlas (used by Google Earth) favor italian names - but finally corrections to TeleAtlas and Navteq are under

2541:

Trentino-South Tyrol works well, even Trentino-Alto Adige/South Tyrol would somehow work. For sure, the present solution does not work in an encyclopaedia written for English-speakers. Therefore I agree with DIREKTOR that a more appropiate name should be used.--

841: 1544:

propose such a move I am unwilling to either oppose or endorse this move request. Notwithstanding I believe that of the three possible options given Trentino-Alto Adige is the worst (as per inconsistency with the provinces names and as it is not English).

1722:

Interesting questions. I would imagine a decision could be revisited (or a new case opened) after a while - it seems unlikely that any decision could be binding in perpetuity. Is mediation something that anyone would be interested in trying?

2296:, this article does not, and should not, use the subject's name as it might be spelled in non-English languages as its article title; it instead uses the name that is most frequently used to refer to the subject in English-language 1077:). After the 2nd statute in 1972 the region continued to exist only de jure (and thus rare mention in news or literature), while the province South Tyrol has become a de facto region. So if you want, leave the administrative name 2232:

a mediation and the current name is the result of this mediation 4 years ago (see above for the links) and because of that I am unwilling to change the current name, as all parties involved back then agreed to this compromise.

1977:(I know this for a fact since those users have communicated to me about this, ask yourself if you wish). I could easily start arguing for "Trentino-South Tyrol" again, but this is what was agreed and it should be honoured. 1964:

What do you mean with "show you the language"? It says it quite clear. This topic was discussed over months in detail and voted upon multiple times in the past and settled, under the given policies and guidelines.

170: 2931:

Thank you for finally starting to discuss the topic. The first issue, however, is already explained in the article, citing the academic essay by Anthony R. Rowley whose title is more or less self-explanatory

1679: 1292:

Knowledge (XXG) does not necessarily use the subject's "official" name as an article title; it instead uses the name which is most frequently used to refer to the subject in English-language reliable sources.

922:

1178: 1578:"Where there is an English word, or exonym, for the subject but a native version is more common in English-language usage, the English name should be mentioned but should not be used as the article title." 1194: 1023:

The English name of the region is actually "South Tyrol" with a "y", however the boundaries are not as precise as administrative boundaries. Thus I'm okay with the current name, despite its awkwardness.

2751:

This article is about todays region, not some entity in the past. 215 years ago "Alto Adige" was a district between Verona, Brescia and Mantova... So to avoid confusion, we should move to "Trentino-South

1218:

after 2001, but having passed less than 10 years, the evidence is not so strong and there's still way to go. Therefore I leave it up to others to decide, if we leave the unwieldy but politically correct

941:

We have discussed this issue many times and voted upon it and come to a final agreement in the end to go with the name given in the Italian constitution. I don't think this box should be reopened again.

821: 3515:

Trentino-South Tyro please move it because it is also a bit strange that in the English Knowledge (XXG) page there is the name of the region in two languages Alto Adige/Südtirol which is in German.

2371:

can be called "Südtirol"). Its a bad idea. Its also a bad idea to call it simply "Trentino-Alto Adige" per the many valid arguments listed above. Since on this project "Alto Adige/Südtirol" is named

2127:

did not matter at all. In the case of Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol you do not agree with the move to "Italian" Trentino-Alto Adige (common usage in English) because in your eyes it would go against

1708:

What does this mean? What is the procedure if there is a Mediation Committee case and one wishes to reopen it? Or is there even such a possibility to reopen a decision by the Mediation Committee??

636: 1706:"Decision of the Mediation Committee - It has been decided and voted upon to agree on the compromise "Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol", which is the official name given in the Italian constitution." 1908:

and the only logical sum of the two provinces. Also the term "Alto Adige" in itself was not acceptable for the wider region, since the article was and now again is called "South Tyrol". After

879:, but at least no-one could question you intellectual honesty and good faith. I understood your arguments and, although I disagre, I enjoy reading your opinions and I hold you in high esteem. 3295:

Knowledge (XXG) does not necessarily use the subject's "official" name; it prefers to use the name that is most frequently used to refer to the subject in English-language reliable sources.

813: 3621: 817: 3363: 3362:

Even the name "Alto Adige" is, I'd dare say, used more frequently than "provincia di Bolzano". And I should think this includes when speaking of the provinces' official institutions.--

2450:

I did that too (see the table above, which I inserted on 17 April 2011). Others will then search for the occurence of "Trentino-Alto Adige" and argue that it appears much more often...

594: 61: 1140:

was inserted in the italian constitution). The following table shows data from english Google Books, about two decades before and one decade after making "Südtirol" an official name:

964:, your rationale was "Most commonly used name in the English language and literature and media for this region." And I agree with that. Isn't it also true for "Trentino-Alto Adige"? 258: 3088:

Patavium: if you have anything to object, please discuss it on Commons. As you are bad-mouthing any(!) map I created or updated, you aren't credible - it's only personal attacks.--

1873:

we have found the most common names each and something for everybody, thereby bringing the year-long naming row to an end. However, I reserve the right to change my stance into an

837: 3029:

The census does not say if in the rest of Trentino Italian in spoken. It could be Trentinian, Venetian, Lombard etc, but also Arab, Romanian etc. The census does not assess this.

650: 2737:

Well, historically Südtirol indicates today's Trentino-Alto Adige or today's Trentino. The province of Bolzano was Mitteltirol. So from this point of view the title is fine.--

3023:

There is a statistical problem: the statistic population of the census in South Tyrol are the Italian citizens, in Trentino the inhabitants. It is not possible to mix them.

1857:. While "South Tyrol" and "Trentino" are each more common, the compound name "Trentino-Alto Adige" appears to be more common than a combination of the two. I hope that with 2982:

I'll add that information to the file description. As long as we say clearly that the statistic population in the two provinces is different, we don't have any problems. --

1870: 2674:

Like I said, the problem with the current "compromise" version is it that gives the impression that the two names of this region are "Trentino-Alto Adige" and "Südtirol".

2100: 1927: 1896: 1796:

Hmm,... but looking at the above opinions and the length of the debate already I think it will be hard to reach consensus for a move (or for that matter against a move).

984:

Dohn joe, my argument is actually to have it under "Trentino-South Tyrol". Please read first all the arguments given in the previous discussions and votes that were held

3611: 3530:"Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol" is the official name of the region, according to the Italian Constitution. I would not oppose a move to "Trentino-South Tyrol", to match 3456: 3452: 3438: 3314:

readers. At least, in the administrative section of the page, I think the provinces should be named using their real name, not their geographical name. Just a thought

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And Biel/Bienne is a separate issue. We use that title not because of a French-German compromise, or because of official usage, but because it is commonly referred to

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also shows that "Trentino-Alto Adige" dwarfs all other names for this region in English. The proposed title follows Knowledge (XXG) guidelines and policies, such as

829: 825: 551: 525: 215: 211: 207: 608: 566: 3424: 1582:"It is not our business to predict what term will be in use, but rather to observe what is and has been in use, and will therefore be familiar to our readers." 1569: 1537: 1525: 1512: 1499: 479: 96: 3626: 1687:

in March 2007 was based on the outcome of this process, but I'd like to know whether any such decision by a mediation committee is to be considered binding.

3606: 3272:(Italian/German names). I don't know the reason why you called them differently, but I just wanted to point out that the way you call them isn't official. 1264:

Any way you look at it still doesn't change the fact that the official name as given in the Italian constitution is in both languages. See also the case of

2603:

one of those titles while we are discussing. For sure, the present pseudo-compromise must be removed the sooner the better. The old mediation went against

2426:

mediations: they're a useless, contemptible waste of time and contributions, and they often do far more damage than good. Lets just move the damn thing..

869:. The current title is neither a dual title nor a bad compromise between Italian- and German-speakers, in fact it is the official name of the region (see 3651: 469: 3404: 1651:

name of this region will be difficult to bolster with numbers, but the worst thing we could do is to change this regions name to an old/abandoned one.--

2145:

Most common name goes if it adheres to the policy of neutrality. In this case it clearly does not, so please do not accuse anyone of double standards.

790:

is "Trentino-Alto Adige". Note: this move request also applies to all other Knowledge (XXG) articles with "Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol" in the title.

3188:

Please note that the method of gathering statistical data on the population in the two provinces was different and the data aren't directly comparable

1675: 1250:

usage. Is there anyone who disagrees that "Trentino-Alto Adige" is currently the most common way to refer to this region in English-language sources?

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To Patavium: Please desist from dissing on User:Sajoch by publicly writing that he purposely "manipulated" facts, and keep a neutral tone. Assume

1771:

frustration) of Knowledge (XXG) - it's controlled by all of us, and whatever "we" decide stands only as long as consensus supports that decision.

1625:

A search for "Trentino-Alto Adige" cannot be restricted to recent publications (less than a decade), and if so, the numbers wouldn't be meaningful

364: 3414: 2367:

The current name gives the impression that there are two names for this region #1 "Trentino-Alto Adige", and #2 "Südtirol" (that is to say, that

445: 3534:, or the latter's move to "Alto Adige/Südtirol", to match "Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol". The only option I oppose is "Trentino-Alto Adige". -- 547: 1895:: Again Firmly Oppose. The reason why we settled on this compromise after many debates and discussions was that it confirmed to the guideline 601: 2903: 3254:

I have looked at your edits Patavium, and you are basically objecting that Mocheno and Cimbrian are bundled together as Germanic languages?

809: 3641: 2107:. Common usage does not override that. In this case we take the official name as given in the English version of the Italian constitution. 704: 47: 1074:

became official only after the second autonomy statute in 1972 (See Part 3 "South Tyrols new name and powers" of THE SOUTH TYROL AUTONOMY

622: 3646: 3516: 3321: 3279: 3038:

Separate maps for Trentino (of course not the one manipulated by Sajoch) and South Tyrol would be statistically and factually correct.--

340: 2128: 2124: 2104: 1969:/Icsunonove/76.89.129.139 constantly harassed the debate, that in the end a number of users who voted or were involved quit, such as 1931: 1900: 436: 397: 116: 3434:

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

3180:

Since removing this map was not possible due to massive editwarring, at least the biggest mistakes were corrected. Please notice my

2186:, "Trentino-Alto Adige" is preferable over "Trentino-South Tyrol" which is more English, but – this is the point – much less common 1433:

if we do a Google search, it's difficult to narrow the results to documents written only in the last few years (less than a decade).

2047:. But the even greater point is: clumsy and Un-English (in terminology and usage) Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol must be replaced.--- 121: 37: 3367: 1574:"The title of an article should generally use the version of the name of the subject which is most common in the English language" 1934:

that supports the current title? I've read both, and I've even quoted from the naming convention - to me they seem to agree with

3106:

Maybe the problem is that the data of the census in Trentino are only in Italian, in this case we can find someone that helps.--

91: 3631: 3601: 3388: 779: 41: 643: 532: 514: 267: 2292:- I agree with the reasons as outlined by the nominator. This is the English Knowledge (XXG), and according to the policy of 2045:

I would rename the article Trentino-Alto Adige and in the introduction I would mention Trentino-South Tyrol immediately after

876: 808:

as nom. "Trentino-Alto Adige" is by far the most common way to refer to this region in English. See Google Books: 17,300 for

541: 3425:

https://web.archive.org/web/20070311010226/http://www.consiglio.provincia.tn.it/consiglio/autonomia_trentina/picb/F5-1-5.jpg

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It could be, but as Icsunonove's last message (directed to Dohn joe) was on this move, I wanted to have it linked here. --

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The region is divided into two autonomous provinces: Trentino (Province of Trento) and South Tyrol (Province of Bolzano).

1737:

Reopening this case is not something that I would support. Otherwise we'll end up revisiting this over and over again...

1622:

A search for "Trentino-Alto Adige" includes results for "Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol" and "Trentino-Alto Adige/whatever"

615: 3499: 3218:

Excellent! The map has been removed finally! I had tried to remove it previously, but edit-warring made this impossible.

3026:

In Trentino only minorities are assessed, i.e. Cimbrian, Mocheno and Ladin. There is no assessment of Italian language.

2327:

Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

755:

Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

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https://web.archive.org/web/20070805181615/http://www.circa.europa.eu/irc/dsis/regportraits/info/data/en/itd2_geo.htm

2404:

or South Tyrol. If you find some prominent sources citing "Trentino-South Tyrol", you're welcome to report it here.--

2339:

As it is connected to this discussion I would like to invite editors to please check out the similar move request at

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and because it would be in line with the most common names of the two provinces; however as this move request does

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The statistic population of the census in Trentino and South Tyrol is different. Data cannot be mixed together.--

957: 3455:

to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the

2123:

I cannot see your point. When it was about to rename the province of Bolzano-Bozen into German-like South Tyrol

1812:

request a move to this name. For now I'm happy if I don't have to loose much time for another endless debate.--

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https://web.archive.org/web/20090201175658/http://circa.europa.eu/irc/dsis/regportraits/info/data/en/index.htm

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If someone wants to reinsert, please consider this disclaimer. The best thing would be not to reinsert it.--

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http://www.statistica.provincia.tn.it/binary/pat_statistica/demografia/15CensGenPopolazione.1340956277.pdf

2275: 765: 719: 142: 3408: 3057: 2485:

Fellas, I've been around the block here: I'm not saying its the most common. I'm saying its in-line with

1767: 1617:- please note the subtle difference!) on Google Search results. But Google Search has several handicaps: 1401:

in english texts. And our guests which are non-native italian or german, know this province by the name

72: 3474:

If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with

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Anyway, what the Italian Constitution says is relevant for the content of the article, not for its name.

444:

on Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join

339:

on Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join

3395:. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit 3032:

Cimbrian and Mocheno are recognized as different languages under the so called Second Autonomy Statute.

985: 87: 3418: 3578: 3560: 3349: 3302: 3259: 3065: 2987: 2150: 2112: 1982: 1917: 1742: 1393:

I'm very consistent with my arguments, and in fact I always try to back up my position with numbers:

1273: 993: 947: 929: 192: 2940:). He's explaining there how the legal recognition and and relation to the Standard German of these 2766:

I would've already gone through with a good-faith move, but it seems the article is move-protected.

2467:

Sajoch's right, of course. You can show 1,300 results for "Trentino-South Tyrol", and I'll show you

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In Trentino the statistical population is given by the inhabitants, in South Tyrol by the citizens;

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I don't get what you are saying. Are you denying that Italian is spoken in the red coloured areas?

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Thanks for the kind words, Checco. I, too, appreciate your good faith and respect your opinions.

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before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template

3371: 3353: 3329: 3306: 3287: 3263: 3230: 3213: 3143: 3129: 3115: 3097: 3083: 3069: 3047: 3008: 2991: 2922: 2876: 2861: 2809: 2784: 2761: 2746: 2692: 2669: 2622: 2565: 2550: 2515: 2480: 2462: 2444: 2413: 2397: 2356: 2309: 2283: 2257: 2242: 2223: 2202: 2170: 2154: 2140: 2116: 2094: 2079: 2056: 2025: 2005: 1986: 1955: 1921: 1887: 1841: 1821: 1805: 1780: 1761: 1746: 1732: 1717: 1696: 1672:: I would like to point out that the current name of the article has apparently been subject to 1660: 1599: 1554: 1471: 1376: 1360: 1340: 1307: 1277: 1259: 1236: 1117: 1098: 1058: 1033: 1015: 997: 973: 951: 933: 905: 890: 861: 799: 773: 731: 712: 3475: 3573:

says "Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol". I don't have strong opinions about the matter, though...

3074:

I agree with you. But en.Wiki is not a planet out of this universe, if you know what I mean.--

2305: 68: 2490: 1943: 849: 657: 3539: 3093: 3004: 2757: 2561: 2458: 2409: 2075: 1817: 1752:

establishing a mediation committee if its decisions can be lifted by a simple move request?

1656: 1467: 1372: 1356: 1336: 1232: 1094: 1054: 1029: 886: 870: 428: 412: 391: 226: 3482: 875:@Dohn joe: It is amazing how you can be on the wrong side of the argument both here and at 158: 3574: 3556: 3345: 3298: 3255: 3061: 2983: 2146: 2108: 1978: 1913: 1738: 1287: 1269: 989: 943: 925: 2604: 2486: 2376: 2318: 2297: 746: 23: 697:

to the enemies of Knowledge (XXG) who can say that we don't put "quality" in Wikipedi.

228: 3441:, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by 2017: 1974: 501: 3481:

If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with

3448: 1422:

is hard to find in english texts (ngram-viewer returns no data!) has several reasons:

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In Trentino only minorities are assessed. There is no assessment of Italian language.

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population of Ladin, Mocheno and Cimbrian language. Not a word about German language.

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only have a finite amount of time and patience left, this should be considered, too.

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as nom. It may seem odd, but "Trentino-Alto Adige" is not actually inconsistent with

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Taking into account the above considerations I would prefer to move the article to

1450:. But we shouldn't move it to the old imposed name. And yes, as soon as the name 323: 3103:

your maps can be inserted into the encyclopaedia. Commons has different standards.

3429:

http://www.consiglio.provincia.tn.it/consiglio/autonomia_trentina/picb/F5-1-5.jpg

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In fact Mocheno and Cimbrian minorities have their own media in their languages.

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I agree with DIREKTOR. It is a pity that the title of the article was blocked.--

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This is why I don't care much, if the region remains under the bilingual name

1085:, which isn't appropriate any more. Hence I would strongly suggest a move to 522:

Requested articles/Social sciences/Geography, cities, regions and named places

418: 313: 3510:

Please move the page from Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol to Trentino-Alto Adige

1241:

But your own evidence (and mine as well) shows that "Trentino-Alto Adige" is

2892:

Map to be removed: alleged Language distribution in South Tyrol and Trentino

441: 2948:) is evolving. It is indeed a fact that the provincial laws avoid the word 1636:

but hardly ever to the region as a whole (you don't spend your holidays in

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This map is original research by Sajoch and a manipulation of the Census.

2344: 2300:. This includes usage in the sources used as references for the article. 1862: 3409:

http://circa.europa.eu/irc/dsis/regportraits/info/data/en/itd2_geo.htm

2066:(having it become an empty shell). The second sentence states, that 1640:, and also the apples come from either Trentino or from South Tyrol) 1070:

in Google Books or other sources, relies in the fact, that the name

3419:

http://circa.europa.eu/irc/dsis/regportraits/info/data/en/index.htm

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say that, say, 20 users discussing and voting an outcome reflects

1685:

the move from Trentino-South Tyrol to Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol

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in ALL tourism brochures and webpages meant for english visitors.

1586:

we (or future editors) can revisit. But for now, the best title

3555:

of the Italian Constitution still says "Trentino-Alto Adige".--

2794:

As far as I know Trentino-Alto Adige is more common in English.

2375:, this article should be renamed to "Trentino-South Tyrol" per 1418:

What I tried to explain above: the fact that the region's name

2068:

the region consists of two provinces: Trentino and South Tyrol

1498:

but a name which has been officially superseded and it is not

1128:

is still used (obviously). But you're right, the german name

1066:

The fact, that it is difficult to find references to the name

238: 230: 32: 2070:- let the name respect that fact, or leave this page alone.-- 3120:

I think that the statistic data for Trentino are credible.--

1683:. I am not sure what exactly this means and to what extent 3399:

for additional information. I made the following changes:

3134:

Finally it is not a personal, but a statistical problem.--

1613:

is the most used name in english texts (not the most used

2902:

Mocheno and Cimbrian are languages different from German

2867:

No, I would object to that. You can try an RM or an RFC.

2099:

We can follow common usage if it is not in conflict with

2613:. No it is not. It is a High-importance Italy article.-- 1938:

in this case, and support "Trentino-Alto Adige". (Also,

1458:, it will be logical to change also the regions name to 745:

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a

2938:"Mocheno and Cimbrian". From dialect(s) to language(s)? 2910:

There is no assessment of Italian language in Trentino.

1684: 2493:. We're supposed to look for the most common, neutral 2274:

per Gryffindor. The current name is the correct name.

1926:

Gryffindor - would you please show me the language in

1223:, or if we look forward and consider the trend versus 177: 2343:

where a request has been made to move the article to

2317:

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a

2843:

Can I go ahead and request an uncontroversial move?

2161:

It was not an accusation, but a simple constation.--

2101:

WP:Naming_conventions_(geographic_names)#Use_English

1928:

WP:Naming_conventions_(geographic_names)#Use_English

1897:

WP:Naming_conventions_(geographic_names)#Use_English

1524:

names of the two component provinces and also using

637:

Geography articles with topics of unclear notability

440:, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of 335:, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of 3622:

Knowledge (XXG) level-5 vital articles in Geography

3451:using the archive tool instructions below. Editors 1298:with the slash, which is not true for this region. 191: 2228:ah sorry to chip in Patavium: we actually already 2131:. Double standards, what was to be demonstrated.-- 1462:, being the region the sum of the two provinces.-- 2934:"Mocheno e Cimbro". Von Dialek(en) zu Sprache(n)? 50:for general discussion of the article's subject. 1942:is a WP policy, and thus on equal footing with 651:Knowledge (XXG) requested photographs of places 3437:This message was posted before February 2018. 1136:) became only official in 2001 (when the name 595:Articles missing geocoordinate data by country 2214:was blocked due to common usage. Full stop.-- 8: 2960:) and first drafts still included the words 2952:, although the very first article speaks of 764:: no concensus in 28 days, and none likely. 3612:Knowledge (XXG) vital articles in Geography 2341:Talk:Province of Trento#Requested move 2011 1507:= new and sole official name, but neither 698: 509:Here are some tasks awaiting attention: 487: 386: 281: 3387:I have just modified 3 external links on 2611:the region is a topic of modest relevance 2469:419,000 results for "Trentino-Alto Adige" 1871:Euroregion Tyrol – South Tyrol – Trentino 3268:°== Provinces in Trentino-Alto Adige == 1151: 956:But Gryffindor, in your request to move 3060:and engage in a productive discussion. 1081:, but do not change it to its old name 581:Geographic related deletion discussions 388: 283: 242: 3607:Knowledge (XXG) level-5 vital articles 2791:Südtirol was established in the 1970s. 1045:, and thus the region should be named 852:, and follows English-language usage. 720:Costituzione della Repubblica Italiana 1609:Yes Dohn joe, we base the claim that 1405:- that's why this province is called 552:Unknown-importance geography articles 454:Knowledge (XXG):WikiProject Geography 7: 1397:is several times more frequent than 1322:What 76.89.129.139/Icsunonove wrote 1041:The english name of the province is 760:The result of the move request was: 609:Geography articles needing infoboxes 567:Geography articles needing attention 538:Tag related article talk pages with 434:This article is within the scope of 329:This article is within the scope of 3627:C-Class vital articles in Geography 1766:I think the answer to that is that 1570:WP:Naming conventions (use English) 1538:WP:Naming conventions (use English) 1526:WP:Naming conventions (use English) 1513:WP:Naming conventions (use English) 1500:WP:Naming conventions (use English) 272:It is of interest to the following 40:for discussing improvements to the 3364:2001:A60:153D:1:95A6:D57E:4AA7:AD7 2334:Move request at Province of Trento 2184:how often they are used in English 31: 3652:Mid-importance geography articles 3391:. Please take a moment to review 1089:by considering up-to-date data.-- 491:WikiProject Geography To-do list: 349:Knowledge (XXG):WikiProject Italy 67:New to Knowledge (XXG)? Welcome! 2599:move the article immediately to 1132:(and thus also the english name 526:Missing articles about Locations 500: 421: 411: 390: 316: 306: 285: 252: 243: 62:Click here to start a new topic. 2129:WP:Neutral_point_of_view#Naming 2125:WP:Neutral_point_of_view#Naming 2105:WP:Neutral_point_of_view#Naming 2037:Trentino-Alto Adige/South Tyrol 1932:WP:Neutral_point_of_view#Naming 1901:WP:Neutral_point_of_view#Naming 474:This article has been rated as 369:This article has been rated as 3657:WikiProject Geography articles 3637:High-importance Italy articles 3617:C-Class level-5 vital articles 3583:08:52, 29 September 2023 (UTC) 3565:21:25, 28 September 2023 (UTC) 3336:First sentence of the chapter 877:Talk:Province of Bolzano-Bozen 623:Knowledge (XXG) requested maps 457:Template:WikiProject Geography 1: 3372:14:09, 21 February 2015 (UTC) 3231:22:27, 30 December 2012 (UTC) 3214:20:22, 29 December 2012 (UTC) 3144:17:34, 16 December 2012 (UTC) 3130:17:28, 16 December 2012 (UTC) 3116:17:19, 16 December 2012 (UTC) 3098:15:43, 16 December 2012 (UTC) 3084:12:35, 16 December 2012 (UTC) 3070:12:16, 16 December 2012 (UTC) 3048:11:16, 16 December 2012 (UTC) 3009:19:40, 15 December 2012 (UTC) 2992:08:20, 15 December 2012 (UTC) 2923:23:31, 14 December 2012 (UTC) 2877:18:06, 15 December 2012 (UTC) 2862:10:08, 15 December 2012 (UTC) 2810:21:43, 14 December 2012 (UTC) 2785:21:37, 14 December 2012 (UTC) 2762:21:32, 14 December 2012 (UTC) 2747:19:40, 14 December 2012 (UTC) 2693:10:17, 11 December 2012 (UTC) 2670:10:13, 11 December 2012 (UTC) 2516:19:46, 28 November 2012 (UTC) 2481:19:38, 28 November 2012 (UTC) 2463:19:15, 28 November 2012 (UTC) 2445:19:04, 28 November 2012 (UTC) 2414:18:13, 28 November 2012 (UTC) 2398:17:09, 28 November 2012 (UTC) 1647:That's why I wrote, that the 548:Unassessed geography articles 448:and see a list of open tasks. 343:and see a list of open tasks. 59:Put new text under old text. 3505:14:09, 9 December 2017 (UTC) 3389:Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol 2623:21:54, 8 December 2012 (UTC) 2566:21:14, 8 December 2012 (UTC) 2551:20:31, 8 December 2012 (UTC) 1505:Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol 1448:Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol 1221:Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol 1079:Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol 780:Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol 42:Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol 3642:All WikiProject Italy pages 3264:14:54, 7 January 2013 (UTC) 1878:less not more discussions. 1674:mediation in October 2006: 3673: 3647:C-Class geography articles 3544:12:24, 16 April 2023 (UTC) 3525:11:08, 16 April 2023 (UTC) 3468:(last update: 5 June 2024) 3384:Hello fellow Wikipedians, 3354:06:39, 15 April 2014 (UTC) 3330:17:34, 14 April 2014 (UTC) 3307:07:37, 14 April 2014 (UTC) 3288:16:34, 13 April 2014 (UTC) 2958:German-speaking population 2357:08:38, 20 April 2011 (UTC) 2284:16:39, 27 April 2011 (UTC) 2258:20:22, 27 April 2011 (UTC) 2243:19:57, 27 April 2011 (UTC) 2224:19:44, 27 April 2011 (UTC) 2203:16:21, 27 April 2011 (UTC) 2171:19:44, 27 April 2011 (UTC) 2155:16:14, 27 April 2011 (UTC) 2141:14:49, 27 April 2011 (UTC) 2117:14:26, 27 April 2011 (UTC) 2095:10:59, 27 April 2011 (UTC) 2080:09:19, 27 April 2011 (UTC) 2057:20:40, 26 April 2011 (UTC) 2026:19:25, 23 April 2011 (UTC) 2006:09:33, 23 April 2011 (UTC) 1987:10:58, 22 April 2011 (UTC) 1956:22:18, 21 April 2011 (UTC) 1922:15:26, 21 April 2011 (UTC) 1888:10:01, 21 April 2011 (UTC) 1842:09:46, 21 April 2011 (UTC) 1822:08:51, 21 April 2011 (UTC) 1806:05:07, 21 April 2011 (UTC) 1781:00:51, 21 April 2011 (UTC) 1762:00:20, 21 April 2011 (UTC) 1747:22:40, 20 April 2011 (UTC) 1733:21:54, 20 April 2011 (UTC) 1718:10:25, 20 April 2011 (UTC) 1697:09:21, 20 April 2011 (UTC) 1661:08:29, 20 April 2011 (UTC) 1600:04:42, 20 April 2011 (UTC) 1590:is "Trentino-Alto Adige". 1572:, which begins like this: 1555:01:24, 20 April 2011 (UTC) 1472:20:42, 18 April 2011 (UTC) 1425:before 2001 only the name 1377:20:08, 18 April 2011 (UTC) 1361:19:59, 18 April 2011 (UTC) 1341:18:40, 18 April 2011 (UTC) 1308:16:55, 18 April 2011 (UTC) 1278:16:24, 18 April 2011 (UTC) 1260:16:11, 18 April 2011 (UTC) 1237:21:30, 17 April 2011 (UTC) 1118:18:34, 17 April 2011 (UTC) 1099:18:26, 17 April 2011 (UTC) 1059:18:26, 17 April 2011 (UTC) 1034:14:26, 17 April 2011 (UTC) 1016:21:01, 16 April 2011 (UTC) 998:00:00, 17 April 2011 (UTC) 974:20:31, 16 April 2011 (UTC) 952:19:44, 16 April 2011 (UTC) 934:19:33, 15 April 2011 (UTC) 906:20:21, 15 April 2011 (UTC) 891:19:24, 15 April 2011 (UTC) 862:17:26, 15 April 2011 (UTC) 800:17:23, 15 April 2011 (UTC) 480:project's importance scale 375:project's importance scale 352:Template:WikiProject Italy 1996:per Checco and Bejnar. - 1768:Knowledge (XXG):Consensus 1452:province of Bolzano-Bozen 1437:have difficulty to apply 1214:is declining in favor of 958:Province of Bolzano-Bozen 486: 473: 406: 368: 301: 280: 97:Be welcoming to newcomers 24:Talk:Trentino-South Tyrol 2324:Please do not modify it. 752:Please do not modify it. 732:00:05, 5 July 2020 (UTC) 713:19:21, 4 July 2020 (UTC) 588:Geographical coordinates 18:Talk:Trentino-Alto Adige 3380:External links modified 2954:popolazioni germanofone 2310:14:56, 3 May 2011 (UTC) 1628:People refer to either 774:10:51, 7 May 2011 (UTC) 3632:C-Class Italy articles 3602:C-Class vital articles 2946:German dialect islands 2895: 2379:(among other things). 1576:. Later on, it states 1282:True. But if you read 92:avoid personal attacks 2942:deutsche Sprachinseln 2890: 2363:More appropriate name 2016:, again per Checco.-- 1247:ten times more common 542:WikiProject Geography 437:WikiProject Geography 266:on Knowledge (XXG)'s 259:level-5 vital article 117:Neutral point of view 3449:regular verification 2970:di origine germanica 1638:Trentino-South Tyrol 1534:Trentino-South Tyrol 1518:Trentino-South Tyrol 1460:Trentino-South Tyrol 1420:Trentino-South Tyrol 1225:Trentino-South Tyrol 1216:Trentino-South Tyrol 1168:Trentino-South Tyrol 1087:Trentino-South Tyrol 1068:Trentino-South Tyrol 1047:Trentino-South Tyrol 871:Italian Constitution 830:Trentino-South Tyrol 818:Trentino-South Tyrol 122:No original research 3439:After February 2018 2290:Support move/rename 1867:Trentino-Alto Adige 1851:Conditional support 1611:Trentino-Alto Adige 1492:Trentino-Alto Adige 1212:Trentino-Alto Adige 1184:Trentino-Alto Adige 1126:Trentino-Alto Adige 1083:Trentino-Alto Adige 826:Trentino-Alto Adige 810:Trentino-Alto Adige 784:Trentino-Alto Adige 3493:InternetArchiveBot 3444:InternetArchiveBot 2974:of German ancestry 2896: 2103:and the policy of 1899:and the policy of 820:; and only 48 for 460:geography articles 268:content assessment 103:dispute resolution 64: 3469: 3320:comment added by 3278:comment added by 2451: 2276:Outback the koala 1454:will be moved to 1379: 1363: 1199: 1198: 1124:The italian name 908: 880: 838:the current title 834:Trentino-Südtirol 822:the current title 814:Trentino-Südtirol 766:Anthony Appleyard 715: 703:comment added by 689: 688: 685: 684: 681: 680: 677: 676: 673: 672: 385: 384: 381: 380: 332:WikiProject Italy 237: 236: 83:Assume good faith 60: 22:(Redirected from 3664: 3503: 3494: 3467: 3466: 3445: 3332: 3290: 2860: 2859: 2856: 2849: 2783: 2782: 2779: 2772: 2691: 2690: 2687: 2680: 2514: 2513: 2510: 2503: 2495:English-language 2449: 2443: 2442: 2439: 2432: 2396: 2395: 2392: 2385: 2326: 2298:reliable sources 1366: 1349: 1152: 1013: 895: 874: 754: 574:Deletion sorting 545: 515:Article requests 504: 497: 496: 488: 462: 461: 458: 455: 452: 431: 429:Geography portal 426: 425: 424: 415: 408: 407: 402: 394: 387: 357: 356: 353: 350: 347: 326: 321: 320: 319: 310: 303: 302: 297: 289: 282: 265: 256: 255: 248: 247: 239: 231: 196: 195: 181: 112:Article policies 33: 27: 3672: 3671: 3667: 3666: 3665: 3663: 3662: 3661: 3592: 3591: 3512: 3497: 3492: 3460: 3453:have permission 3443: 3397:this simple FaQ 3382: 3315: 3273: 2885: 2854: 2851: 2847: 2844: 2777: 2774: 2770: 2767: 2685: 2682: 2678: 2675: 2508: 2505: 2501: 2498: 2437: 2434: 2430: 2427: 2390: 2387: 2383: 2380: 2365: 2336: 2331: 2322: 1520:= based on the 1326:and especially 1011: 750: 740: 694: 669: 665:Geography stubs 539: 459: 456: 453: 450: 449: 427: 422: 420: 400: 371:High-importance 354: 351: 348: 345: 344: 322: 317: 315: 296:High‑importance 295: 263: 253: 233: 232: 227: 138: 133: 132: 131: 108: 78: 29: 28: 21: 20: 12: 11: 5: 3670: 3668: 3660: 3659: 3654: 3649: 3644: 3639: 3634: 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2695: 2640: 2639: 2638: 2637: 2636: 2635: 2634: 2633: 2632: 2631: 2630: 2629: 2628: 2627: 2626: 2625: 2608: 2581: 2580: 2579: 2578: 2577: 2576: 2575: 2574: 2573: 2572: 2571: 2570: 2569: 2568: 2527: 2526: 2525: 2524: 2523: 2522: 2521: 2520: 2519: 2518: 2364: 2361: 2360: 2359: 2335: 2332: 2330: 2329: 2319:requested move 2313: 2312: 2269: 2268: 2267: 2266: 2265: 2264: 2263: 2262: 2261: 2260: 2211: 2210: 2209: 2208: 2207: 2206: 2205: 2179: 2178: 2177: 2176: 2175: 2174: 2173: 2060: 2059: 2029: 2028: 2009: 2008: 1990: 1989: 1975:User:Rarelibra 1961: 1960: 1959: 1958: 1890: 1853:: Support per 1847: 1846: 1845: 1844: 1794: 1793: 1792: 1791: 1790: 1789: 1788: 1787: 1786: 1785: 1784: 1783: 1700: 1699: 1666: 1665: 1664: 1663: 1645: 1644: 1643: 1642: 1641: 1626: 1623: 1604: 1603: 1562: 1561: 1560: 1559: 1558: 1557: 1530: 1529: 1528: 1515: 1502: 1477: 1476: 1475: 1474: 1444: 1443: 1442: 1434: 1431: 1413: 1412: 1411: 1410: 1387: 1385: 1384: 1383: 1382: 1381: 1380: 1344: 1343: 1319: 1318: 1317: 1316: 1315: 1314: 1313: 1312: 1311: 1310: 1268:as reference. 1205: 1204: 1203: 1202: 1201: 1200: 1197: 1196: 1191: 1188: 1185: 1181: 1180: 1175: 1172: 1169: 1165: 1164: 1161: 1158: 1155: 1144: 1143: 1142: 1141: 1121: 1120: 1102: 1101: 1061: 1036: 1018: 1003: 1002: 1001: 1000: 979: 978: 977: 976: 936: 911: 910: 909: 864: 777: 762:page not moved 758: 757: 747:requested move 741: 739: 738:Requested move 736: 735: 734: 705:151.30.200.163 693: 690: 687: 686: 683: 682: 679: 678: 675: 674: 671: 670: 668: 667: 653: 639: 625: 611: 597: 583: 569: 555: 528: 508: 506: 505: 493: 492: 484: 483: 476:Mid-importance 472: 466: 465: 463: 446:the discussion 433: 432: 416: 404: 403: 401:Mid‑importance 395: 383: 382: 379: 378: 367: 361: 360: 358: 355:Italy articles 341:the discussion 328: 327: 311: 299: 298: 290: 278: 277: 271: 249: 235: 234: 225: 223: 222: 219: 218: 198: 197: 135: 134: 130: 129: 124: 119: 110: 109: 107: 106: 99: 94: 85: 79: 77: 76: 65: 56: 55: 52: 51: 45: 30: 15: 14: 13: 10: 9: 6: 4: 3: 2: 3669: 3658: 3655: 3653: 3650: 3648: 3645: 3643: 3640: 3638: 3635: 3633: 3630: 3628: 3625: 3623: 3620: 3618: 3615: 3613: 3610: 3608: 3605: 3603: 3600: 3599: 3597: 3584: 3580: 3576: 3572: 3568: 3567: 3566: 3562: 3558: 3554: 3551: 3550: 3549: 3548: 3545: 3541: 3537: 3533: 3529: 3528: 3527: 3526: 3522: 3518: 3517:87.18.172.235 3509: 3507: 3506: 3501: 3496: 3495: 3484: 3480: 3477: 3473: 3472: 3471: 3464: 3458: 3454: 3450: 3446: 3440: 3435: 3430: 3426: 3422: 3420: 3416: 3412: 3410: 3406: 3402: 3401: 3400: 3398: 3394: 3390: 3385: 3379: 3373: 3369: 3365: 3361: 3360: 3359: 3358: 3355: 3351: 3347: 3343: 3339: 3335: 3334: 3333: 3331: 3327: 3323: 3322:78.134.105.78 3319: 3308: 3304: 3300: 3296: 3293: 3292: 3291: 3289: 3285: 3281: 3280:78.134.119.28 3277: 3269: 3266: 3265: 3261: 3257: 3232: 3228: 3224: 3220: 3217: 3216: 3215: 3211: 3207: 3203: 3199: 3196: 3194: 3191: 3190: 3189: 3186: 3183: 3179: 3178: 3177: 3176: 3175: 3174: 3173: 3172: 3171: 3170: 3169: 3168: 3167: 3166: 3165: 3164: 3163: 3162: 3145: 3141: 3137: 3133: 3131: 3127: 3123: 3119: 3117: 3113: 3109: 3105: 3101: 3100: 3099: 3095: 3091: 3087: 3086: 3085: 3081: 3077: 3073: 3072: 3071: 3067: 3063: 3059: 3055: 3054: 3053: 3052: 3049: 3045: 3041: 3037: 3034: 3031: 3028: 3025: 3022: 3021: 3020: 3019: 3018: 3017: 3016: 3015: 3010: 3006: 3002: 2997: 2996: 2993: 2989: 2985: 2981: 2978: 2975: 2971: 2967: 2963: 2959: 2955: 2951: 2947: 2943: 2939: 2935: 2930: 2929: 2928: 2927: 2924: 2920: 2916: 2912: 2909: 2905: 2901: 2898: 2897: 2894:Corrected map 2893: 2889: 2882: 2878: 2874: 2870: 2866: 2865: 2864: 2863: 2857: 2850: 2811: 2807: 2803: 2799: 2796: 2793: 2790: 2789: 2788: 2787: 2786: 2780: 2773: 2765: 2764: 2763: 2759: 2755: 2750: 2749: 2748: 2744: 2740: 2736: 2735: 2734: 2733: 2732: 2731: 2730: 2729: 2728: 2727: 2726: 2725: 2724: 2723: 2722: 2721: 2720: 2719: 2718: 2717: 2716: 2715: 2694: 2688: 2681: 2673: 2672: 2671: 2667: 2663: 2658: 2657: 2656: 2655: 2654: 2653: 2652: 2651: 2650: 2649: 2648: 2647: 2646: 2645: 2644: 2643: 2642: 2641: 2624: 2620: 2616: 2612: 2609: 2606: 2602: 2597: 2596: 2595: 2594: 2593: 2592: 2591: 2590: 2589: 2588: 2587: 2586: 2585: 2584: 2583: 2582: 2567: 2563: 2559: 2554: 2553: 2552: 2548: 2544: 2539: 2538: 2537: 2536: 2535: 2534: 2533: 2532: 2531: 2530: 2529: 2528: 2517: 2511: 2504: 2496: 2492: 2488: 2484: 2483: 2482: 2478: 2474: 2470: 2466: 2465: 2464: 2460: 2456: 2448: 2447: 2446: 2440: 2433: 2425: 2421: 2420:1,300 sources 2417: 2416: 2415: 2411: 2407: 2402: 2401: 2400: 2399: 2393: 2386: 2378: 2374: 2370: 2362: 2358: 2354: 2350: 2346: 2342: 2338: 2337: 2333: 2328: 2325: 2320: 2315: 2314: 2311: 2307: 2303: 2299: 2295: 2294:WP:COMMONNAME 2291: 2288: 2287: 2286: 2285: 2281: 2277: 2273: 2259: 2255: 2251: 2246: 2245: 2244: 2240: 2236: 2231: 2227: 2226: 2225: 2221: 2217: 2212: 2204: 2200: 2196: 2195:Gun Powder Ma 2192: 2190: 2185: 2180: 2172: 2168: 2164: 2160: 2159: 2158: 2157: 2156: 2152: 2148: 2144: 2143: 2142: 2138: 2134: 2130: 2126: 2122: 2121: 2120: 2119: 2118: 2114: 2110: 2106: 2102: 2098: 2097: 2096: 2092: 2088: 2083: 2082: 2081: 2077: 2073: 2069: 2064: 2063: 2062: 2061: 2058: 2054: 2050: 2046: 2042: 2038: 2034: 2031: 2030: 2027: 2023: 2019: 2015: 2011: 2010: 2007: 2003: 1999: 1995: 1992: 1991: 1988: 1984: 1980: 1976: 1972: 1968: 1963: 1962: 1957: 1953: 1949: 1945: 1941: 1940:WP:COMMONNAME 1937: 1936:WP:COMMONNAME 1933: 1929: 1925: 1924: 1923: 1919: 1915: 1911: 1906: 1905:WP:Commonname 1902: 1898: 1894: 1891: 1889: 1885: 1881: 1880:Gun Powder Ma 1876: 1872: 1868: 1864: 1860: 1856: 1855:WP:Commonname 1852: 1849: 1848: 1843: 1839: 1835: 1834:Gun Powder Ma 1830: 1825: 1824: 1823: 1819: 1815: 1810: 1809: 1808: 1807: 1803: 1799: 1782: 1778: 1774: 1769: 1765: 1764: 1763: 1759: 1755: 1754:Gun Powder Ma 1750: 1749: 1748: 1744: 1740: 1736: 1735: 1734: 1730: 1726: 1721: 1720: 1719: 1715: 1711: 1707: 1704: 1703: 1702: 1701: 1698: 1694: 1690: 1689:Gun Powder Ma 1686: 1682: 1681: 1677: 1671: 1668: 1667: 1662: 1658: 1654: 1650: 1646: 1639: 1635: 1631: 1627: 1624: 1621: 1620: 1619: 1618: 1616: 1612: 1608: 1607: 1606: 1605: 1602: 1601: 1597: 1593: 1589: 1583: 1579: 1575: 1571: 1567: 1564: 1563: 1556: 1552: 1548: 1543: 1539: 1535: 1531: 1527: 1523: 1522:WP:COMMONNAME 1519: 1516: 1514: 1510: 1509:WP:COMMONNAME 1506: 1503: 1501: 1497: 1496:WP:COMMONNAME 1493: 1490: 1489: 1486: 1483: 1482: 1481: 1480: 1479: 1478: 1473: 1469: 1465: 1461: 1457: 1453: 1449: 1445: 1440: 1439:WP:COMMONNAME 1435: 1432: 1428: 1424: 1423: 1421: 1417: 1416: 1415: 1414: 1408: 1404: 1400: 1396: 1392: 1391: 1390: 1389: 1388: 1378: 1374: 1370: 1365: 1364: 1362: 1358: 1354: 1348: 1347: 1346: 1345: 1342: 1338: 1334: 1329: 1325: 1321: 1320: 1309: 1305: 1301: 1297: 1293: 1290:post above): 1289: 1285: 1284:WP:COMMONNAME 1281: 1280: 1279: 1275: 1271: 1267: 1263: 1262: 1261: 1257: 1253: 1248: 1244: 1240: 1239: 1238: 1234: 1230: 1226: 1222: 1217: 1213: 1209: 1208: 1207: 1206: 1195: 1192: 1189: 1186: 1183: 1182: 1179: 1176: 1173: 1170: 1167: 1166: 1162: 1159: 1156: 1154: 1153: 1150: 1149: 1148: 1147: 1146: 1145: 1139: 1135: 1131: 1127: 1123: 1122: 1119: 1115: 1111: 1106: 1105: 1104: 1103: 1100: 1096: 1092: 1088: 1084: 1080: 1076: 1073: 1069: 1065: 1062: 1060: 1056: 1052: 1049:in english.-- 1048: 1044: 1040: 1037: 1035: 1031: 1027: 1022: 1019: 1017: 1014: 1012:Nightstallion 1009:per Checco. — 1008: 1005: 1004: 999: 995: 991: 986: 983: 982: 981: 980: 975: 971: 967: 963: 959: 955: 954: 953: 949: 945: 940: 937: 935: 931: 927: 923: 919: 918:WP:COMMONNAME 915: 912: 907: 903: 899: 894: 893: 892: 888: 884: 878: 872: 868: 865: 863: 859: 855: 851: 847: 846:WP:COMMONNAME 843: 839: 836:; and 83 for 835: 831: 827: 823: 819: 815: 811: 807: 804: 803: 802: 801: 797: 793: 789: 785: 781: 776: 775: 771: 767: 763: 756: 753: 748: 743: 742: 737: 733: 729: 725: 721: 718: 717: 716: 714: 710: 706: 702: 692:Fix the names 691: 666: 662: 660: 659: 654: 652: 648: 646: 645: 640: 638: 634: 632: 631: 626: 624: 620: 618: 617: 612: 610: 606: 604: 603: 598: 596: 592: 590: 589: 584: 582: 578: 576: 575: 570: 568: 564: 562: 561: 556: 553: 549: 543: 537: 535: 534: 529: 527: 523: 519: 517: 516: 511: 510: 507: 503: 499: 498: 495: 494: 490: 489: 485: 481: 477: 471: 468: 467: 464: 447: 443: 439: 438: 430: 419: 417: 414: 410: 409: 405: 399: 396: 393: 389: 376: 372: 366: 363: 362: 359: 342: 338: 334: 333: 325: 314: 312: 309: 305: 304: 300: 294: 291: 288: 284: 279: 275: 269: 261: 260: 250: 246: 241: 240: 221: 220: 217: 213: 209: 206: 204: 200: 199: 194: 190: 187: 184: 180: 176: 172: 169: 166: 163: 160: 157: 154: 151: 148: 144: 141: 140:Find sources: 137: 136: 128: 127:Verifiability 125: 123: 120: 118: 115: 114: 113: 104: 100: 98: 95: 93: 89: 86: 84: 81: 80: 74: 70: 69:Learn to edit 66: 63: 58: 57: 54: 53: 49: 43: 39: 35: 34: 25: 19: 3513: 3491: 3488: 3463:source check 3442: 3436: 3433: 3386: 3383: 3341: 3337: 3316:— Preceding 3311: 3274:— Preceding 3270: 3267: 3253: 3197: 3192: 3187: 3181: 3058:WP:GOODFAITH 2973: 2969: 2965: 2961: 2957: 2953: 2949: 2945: 2941: 2937: 2933: 2891: 2883:Disputed map 2842: 2610: 2600: 2494: 2423: 2368: 2366: 2323: 2316: 2289: 2271: 2270: 2229: 2188: 2187: 2183: 2067: 2044: 2041:common usage 2040: 2036: 2032: 2013: 1993: 1971:User:Fantasy 1892: 1874: 1850: 1828: 1795: 1705: 1673: 1669: 1648: 1637: 1633: 1629: 1615:english name 1614: 1610: 1587: 1584: 1581: 1577: 1573: 1565: 1541: 1533: 1517: 1504: 1491: 1484: 1459: 1455: 1451: 1447: 1426: 1419: 1406: 1402: 1398: 1394: 1386: 1295: 1291: 1288:Mai-Sachme's 1246: 1242: 1224: 1220: 1215: 1211: 1137: 1133: 1129: 1125: 1086: 1082: 1078: 1071: 1067: 1063: 1046: 1042: 1038: 1020: 1006: 938: 921: 913: 866: 805: 787: 778: 761: 759: 751: 744: 699:— Preceding 695: 656: 655: 642: 641: 628: 627: 614: 613: 600: 599: 586: 585: 572: 571: 558: 557: 531: 530: 513: 512: 475: 435: 370: 330: 324:Italy portal 274:WikiProjects 257: 201: 188: 182: 174: 167: 161: 155: 149: 139: 111: 36:This is the 3571:Article 116 3553:Article 131 3532:South Tyrol 2373:South Tyrol 1859:South Tyrol 1630:South Tyrol 1456:South Tyrol 1407:South Tyrol 1403:South Tyrol 1395:South Tyrol 1296:in English 1266:Biel/Bienne 1210:The use of 1134:South Tyrol 1072:South Tyrol 1043:South Tyrol 962:South Tyrol 840:. Finally, 165:free images 48:not a forum 3596:Categories 3575:Mai-Sachme 3557:Holapaco77 3500:Report bug 3346:Mai-Sachme 3299:Mai-Sachme 3256:Gryffindor 3204:Thanks. -- 3182:disclaimer 3062:Gryffindor 2984:Mai-Sachme 2418:How about 2147:Gryffindor 2109:Gryffindor 1979:Gryffindor 1967:User:Taalo 1914:Gryffindor 1910:User:Taalo 1739:Gryffindor 1588:in English 1427:Alto Adige 1399:Alto Adige 1270:Gryffindor 1245:more than 1163:2001-2010 990:Gryffindor 944:Gryffindor 926:Mai-Sachme 842:this ngram 828:; 192 for 816:; 576 for 812:; 894 for 788:in English 630:Notability 579:Listed at 3483:this tool 3476:this tool 2752:Tyrol".-- 2369:all of it 2018:Autospark 1243:currently 1160:1991-2000 1157:1981-1990 832:; 65 for 451:Geography 442:geography 398:Geography 262:is rated 105:if needed 88:Be polite 38:talk page 3489:Cheers.— 3338:politics 3318:unsigned 3276:unsigned 3223:Patavium 3206:Patavium 3136:Patavium 3122:Patavium 3108:Patavium 3076:Patavium 3040:Patavium 2915:Patavium 2869:Dohn joe 2848:Director 2802:Patavium 2771:Director 2739:Patavium 2679:Director 2662:August90 2615:Patavium 2543:Patavium 2502:Director 2473:Dohn joe 2431:Director 2384:Director 2349:noclador 2345:Trentino 2250:Patavium 2235:noclador 2216:Patavium 2163:Patavium 2133:Patavium 2087:Patavium 2049:Patavium 1998:Darwinek 1948:Dohn joe 1863:Trentino 1798:noclador 1773:Dohn joe 1725:Dohn joe 1710:noclador 1634:Trentino 1592:Dohn joe 1547:noclador 1300:Dohn joe 1252:Dohn joe 1138:Südtirol 1130:Südtirol 1110:noclador 966:Dohn joe 898:Dohn joe 854:Dohn joe 792:Dohn joe 724:noclador 701:unsigned 203:Archives 73:get help 46:This is 44:article. 3393:my edit 2962:tedesco 2556:name.-- 2491:WP:NPOV 2424:despise 2302:Dolovis 2191:English 2033:Comment 1944:WP:NPOV 1893:Comment 1670:Comment 1566:Comment 1536:as per 1485:Comment 1064:Comment 914:Support 850:WP:NCGN 806:Support 602:Infobox 560:Cleanup 478:on the 373:on the 264:C-class 171:WP refs 159:scholar 3536:Checco 3090:Sajoch 3001:Sajoch 2968:) and 2966:German 2950:German 2754:Sajoch 2558:Sajoch 2497:name. 2455:Sajoch 2406:Sajoch 2272:Oppose 2072:Sajoch 2014:oppose 1994:Oppose 1875:Oppose 1814:Sajoch 1653:Sajoch 1580:Also, 1464:Sajoch 1369:Checco 1353:Sajoch 1333:Checco 1229:Sajoch 1091:Sajoch 1051:Sajoch 1039:Oppose 1026:Bejnar 1021:Oppose 1007:Oppose 939:Oppose 883:Checco 867:Oppose 533:Assess 270:scale. 143:Google 2605:WP:EN 2487:WP:EN 2471:. :) 2377:WP:EN 2012:Also 1351:it.-- 1193:3930 658:Stubs 644:Photo 346:Italy 337:Italy 293:Italy 251:This 186:JSTOR 147:books 101:Seek 16:< 3579:talk 3569:And 3561:talk 3540:talk 3521:talk 3368:talk 3350:talk 3326:talk 3303:talk 3284:talk 3260:talk 3227:talk 3210:talk 3140:talk 3126:talk 3112:talk 3094:talk 3080:talk 3066:talk 3044:talk 3005:talk 2988:talk 2919:talk 2873:talk 2855:talk 2806:talk 2778:talk 2758:talk 2743:talk 2686:talk 2666:talk 2619:talk 2562:talk 2547:talk 2509:talk 2489:and 2477:talk 2459:talk 2438:talk 2422:? I 2410:talk 2391:talk 2353:talk 2306:talk 2280:talk 2254:talk 2239:talk 2220:talk 2199:talk 2167:talk 2151:talk 2137:talk 2113:talk 2091:talk 2076:talk 2053:talk 2022:talk 2002:talk 1983:talk 1973:and 1952:talk 1930:and 1918:talk 1884:talk 1869:and 1838:talk 1829:real 1818:talk 1802:talk 1777:talk 1758:talk 1743:talk 1729:talk 1714:talk 1693:talk 1680:here 1678:and 1676:here 1657:talk 1596:talk 1551:talk 1511:nor 1468:talk 1430:way. 1373:talk 1357:talk 1337:talk 1328:here 1324:here 1304:talk 1286:(or 1274:talk 1256:talk 1233:talk 1190:5080 1187:3750 1177:322 1114:talk 1095:talk 1055:talk 1030:talk 994:talk 970:talk 948:talk 930:talk 916:per 902:talk 887:talk 858:talk 848:and 796:talk 770:talk 728:talk 709:talk 663:See 649:See 635:See 621:See 607:See 593:See 565:See 550:and 524:and 520:See 365:High 179:FENS 153:news 90:and 3457:RfC 3427:to 3417:to 3407:to 2845:-- 2768:-- 2676:-- 2601:any 2499:-- 2428:-- 2381:-- 2321:. 2230:had 1946:.) 1649:new 1632:or 1542:not 1227:.-- 1174:110 960:to 873:). 616:Map 470:Mid 193:TWL 3598:: 3581:) 3563:) 3542:) 3523:) 3470:. 3465:}} 3461:{{ 3370:) 3352:) 3344:-- 3340:: 3328:) 3305:) 3297:-- 3286:) 3262:) 3229:) 3212:) 3142:) 3128:) 3114:) 3096:) 3082:) 3068:) 3046:) 3007:) 2990:) 2921:) 2875:) 2808:) 2760:) 2745:) 2668:) 2621:) 2564:) 2549:) 2479:) 2461:) 2453:-- 2412:) 2355:) 2347:. 2308:) 2282:) 2256:) 2241:) 2222:) 2201:) 2193:. 2189:in 2169:) 2153:) 2139:) 2115:) 2093:) 2078:) 2055:) 2024:) 2004:) 1985:) 1954:) 1920:) 1903:. 1886:) 1865:, 1861:, 1840:) 1820:) 1804:) 1779:) 1760:) 1745:) 1731:) 1716:) 1695:) 1659:) 1598:) 1553:) 1494:= 1470:) 1375:) 1359:) 1339:) 1306:) 1276:) 1258:) 1235:) 1171:26 1116:) 1097:) 1057:) 1032:) 1024:-- 996:) 972:) 950:) 932:) 924:-- 920:: 904:) 889:) 881:-- 860:) 798:) 782:→ 772:) 749:. 730:) 711:) 544:}} 540:{{ 214:, 210:, 173:) 71:; 3577:( 3559:( 3538:( 3519:( 3502:) 3498:( 3485:. 3478:. 3366:( 3348:( 3324:( 3301:( 3282:( 3258:( 3225:( 3208:( 3184:: 3138:( 3124:( 3110:( 3092:( 3078:( 3064:( 3042:( 3003:( 2986:( 2972:( 2964:( 2956:( 2944:( 2936:( 2917:( 2871:( 2858:) 2852:( 2804:( 2781:) 2775:( 2756:( 2741:( 2689:) 2683:( 2664:( 2617:( 2607:. 2560:( 2545:( 2512:) 2506:( 2475:( 2457:( 2441:) 2435:( 2408:( 2394:) 2388:( 2351:( 2304:( 2278:( 2252:( 2237:( 2218:( 2197:( 2165:( 2149:( 2135:( 2111:( 2089:( 2074:( 2051:( 2020:( 2000:( 1981:( 1950:( 1916:( 1882:( 1836:( 1816:( 1800:( 1775:( 1756:( 1741:( 1727:( 1712:( 1691:( 1655:( 1594:( 1549:( 1466:( 1441:. 1371:( 1355:( 1335:( 1302:( 1272:( 1254:( 1231:( 1112:( 1093:( 1053:( 1028:( 992:( 968:( 946:( 928:( 900:( 885:( 856:( 794:( 768:( 726:( 707:( 661:: 647:: 633:: 619:: 605:: 591:: 577:: 563:: 554:. 536:: 518:: 482:. 377:. 276:: 216:3 212:2 208:1 205:: 189:· 183:· 175:· 168:· 162:· 156:· 150:· 145:( 75:. 26:)

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