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quotes sources) and the extended quotations about who said what at these long-ago memorials is totally useless. I find it questionable whether there is anything notable about the section at all; but given that this is a translation of the French article, I thought we could start with an abbreviated section, and if it's not notable, we can just get rid of it. I didn't bother bringing over any of the references, which are available in the French version, in case the whole thing just got deleted, so I also stuck a
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white flags. And the grenades exploded of course and caused all those terrible injuries. Like blowing off the German's genitals which all ended up in they're mouths. Remarkable. And causing those injuries which made it look like some of the them had been tied to cars or trucks and dragged around Tulle until they were skinned. Shocking what a grenade can do.
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Now, to be serious. One-sided history serves no-one. If you can't, or won't, tell the whole truth about an event then, please, don't bother. Telling part-truths warps the historical accuracy of that event and, in the case of Tulle, dishonours the memory of those innocents who were murdered during the
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If this were only an on-the-spot reprisal killing of partisans/civilians I would support the removal of the sidebar. Here, though, over a hundred civilians were arrested and processed in Dachau, where the imprisonment and killing of political prisoners falls under the commonly understood meaning of
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I'm really not seeing why you're fighting this in this manner, since your pathway is clear: get a consensus from the editors on this page to remove the
Holocaust box and you can do it. You haven't really even tried, just bitched and moaned about my objecting to your removal. I am but one of many,
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This is not a straight translation, but just an abbreviated summary. The section in the French article is vast overkill--it goes into great detail about what happened at each of these memorials or commemorations, which I find of questionable notability, even if it is verifiable (the French article
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Also, see the apparent confusion in that part of the article entitled "Battle of Tulle" when the German are shot down at close range.... but maybe they were waving a white flag.... of course not, they're
Germans, they must have been carrying grenades instead, you know, those grenades that look like
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has reverted this change, but has not explained why the
Holocaust sidebar should be retained, instead saying that I need to establish consensus for this change. I have tried to discuss this with Beyond My Ken (see discussion immediately above) but have made no progress. Comments please, should the
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The division may have had a "heavy belief in the ideology of
National Socialism", "battle experience on the Eastern Front", "saw themselves as an elite military unit", but these are all irrelevant. The fact that they had "already participated in engagements with the French Resistance" would be a
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page discusses the etymology and definition of the term, but the page adopts the narrow approach that the
Holocaust refers to the Nazi genocide of Jews and not the wider scope of political prisoners and other "undesirables" murdered by the Nazis. Just because some prisoners were sent to Dachau
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By definition, following the philosophy of
National Socialism would result in war crimes, as the desires as illustrated in Hitler's book - later implemented by his regime - was for taking the land away from the Slavs in the East and resettling it with Germans and the annihilation of the Jews.
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When is a massacre not a massacre? Clearly when it is
Germans who are being massacred......." For G. Penaud, (German losses) amount to about 50 dead (including those trying to surrender?), sixty missing, probably taken prisoner, and between 23 and 37 wounded. The majority of the prisoners were
1583:, and members of other smaller groups." So, it does not just "adopt the narrow approach" it is only to be used in the context of the Jewish people; with that said, it would be fair to say, there is a greater emphasis on Jewish victims and that Jews were certainly a primary focus of the Nazis.
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As I said above, while the etymology section discusses the broader definition, the rest of the
Holocaust page follows the narrower definition of the Nazi genocide against the Jews. Even adopting the wider definition, execution of partisans or deportation of political prisoners or hostages is
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Not incomprehensible at all, since you persist in trying to remove references which help to make it clear to the reader how horrendous this massacre and that at
Oradour-sur-Glane were. I do you the courtesy of assuming that you're not aware of the effects of your editing, but they are real
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is not. In the case of Penaud, and all other
Harvard references which are linked, clicking the link does not go to the corresponding Bibliography item, as it should, and as it does in the French article. This may be a result of misrendering of Harvnb template parameters from the original
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You see, this is the way it is: Knowledge (XXG) works on consensus, and if the consensus of editors thinks it's appropriate to have the Holocaust sidebar in this article, then the Holocaust sidebar is going to be in the article, no matter what you think about it, Mztourist.
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There's a pretty heavy stack of refs to cover broad definitions in the mentioned section. I'm not sure you're going to find an absolute, authoritative statement of meaning that isn't contested to some degree, by someone. Is that your litmus or am I misunderstanding?
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I am not pushing any POV nor seeking to minimize the atrocity or the responsibility for it, quite how you reach that conclusion is incomprehensible. Repeated xrefs are not in accordance with MoS and don't help the reader. Removing repeated xrefs is
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Military barbarism towards civilians is generic and shouldn't be limited to time, place or perpetrator. German reprisals against civilians on the Eastern Front seem more of a precedent to the behaviour of the 2nd SS Pz Div at Oradour and Tulle.
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I'll make an effort to translate this across into English over the next few days. My French isn't perfect, so I encourage everyone to at least glance over the new sections. Hopefully it won't take long translating a section or two per day
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against civilians - an action that while cruel, was done by many nations. The killing of said civilians was punitive - not genocidal. This type of massacre is quite distinct and separate from the wholesale genocidal murder of a class of
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You reverted my edits with spurious claims that I was attempting "to minimize the atrocity and the responsibility for it by the Nazis" and yet you accept the same edits by another editor so your POV/opinion lacks any credibility.
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on the basis that "These are not improvements, apparently POV" and "Your edits show a very definite POV". Compliance with MoS by removing multiple repeated xrefs to Milice, 2nd SS Panzer Division etc is not POV. Comments please.
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relevant information, just numerous repeated xrefs/wikilinks. I do not understand how you believe that this in any way would undermine for any reader "how horrendous this massacre and that at Oradour-sur-Glane were".
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I have deleted the Holocaust sidebar from this page because it was an anti-partisan massacre conducted by the 2nd SS Panzer Division, not a massacre of Jews and so the Holocaust sidebar is not relevant.
1462:. Holocaust in the narrow sense is only Jews. In the wider sense it refers to the systemic rounding up of certain classes of individuals, and their subsequent killing - these included Romani (Gypsies),
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RfC because of your obstinacy? I have asked you how you think the Tulle Massacre is related to the Holocaust, you refuse to answer and as usual fall back on consensus to justify your untenable position.
1884:, rather than 'ad hoc' massacres. Including this event does not appear to be generally supported by historians. 'Holocaust' would be an apt subject for a 'see also', but inluding as sidebar is WP:OR.
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This editor's actions show a definite POV, and his removals are, generally speaking, an attempt to minimize the atrocity and the responsibility for it by the Nazis. It is similar to his edits on
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Unfortunately, there was. The NSDAP were a legally constituted political party and that status allowed them to participate in German elections from 1920 to 1933. To suggest otherwise is absurd.
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reason why they would have been happy to kill guerillas. Being a military elite is certainly not a reason to commit war crimes! Nor are belief in National Socialism, or battle experience.
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the context being the mass shooting and deportation of political enemies in the occupation of France. Also, less substantially, in background info on Wulff and Hoff in André Colombat's
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banner template over it. If we decide to keep the section in some form, (some of) the references should be ported over from the French article, and the banner removed.
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this is an extremely broad definition of The Holocaust which is not supported by the academic consensus, and essentially incorporates every German war crime of WWII.
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probably shot hereafter...." Hmmm. So that's ok then. Move on. Nothing to see here. It's not a massacre if it's Germans who are shot, even if it's upto 60 of them.
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What historical Reliable Source places this massacre within the scope of the Holocaust? It was an action against the Resistance, not a killing of Jews per se.
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I've finished translating the French version of the article into English. It could use a once-over by fresh eyes though, and a check of the formatting. --
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in the discussion preceding this rfc, the only argument put forward was that a consensus was required. That's no reason at all to keep the sidebar.
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My search was admittedly cursory, but I found Tulle referenced twice in the context of the Holocaust, most substantially in Ludivine Broch's
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Do reliable sources say that this particular action was part of the Holocaust? If not, there would seem to be no reason to include it. (
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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to do with the Holocaust. Please explain its direct relationship to the Holocaust that justifies retaining the sidebar.
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Isn't the "reason behind the 2nd Panzer Division's role in the massacres" simply that they were ordered to do so?
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I deleted numerous repeated xrefs, actions that are in accordance with MoS, but these have been twice reverted by
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to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
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I've expanded the article, but the French version is to long and complicated for me to translate to English. --
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If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with
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part of the Holocaust, so the Holocaust infobox/link shouldn't be there, so why have you reinstated it
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stretching this too far and takes this too far from the commonly understood meaning of Holocaust.
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It doesn't sound like either source states that the Tulle Massacre was part of the Holocaust.
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the sidebar.There appears to be a consensus that no source definitely attributes the crime to
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the same as deleting the responsible parties which I have not done anywhere in my edits.
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patients who were mentally and physically disabled. An even broader definition includes
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The Holocaust was not just about Jews, and these were civilians rounded up and murdered.
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reprisals. So, don't do it. Ask somebody else to do it or whatever but don't you do it.
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In which category do fall the June 1944 Tulle killings of civilians & maquisards:
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rather than an objective review of the merits of the changes made.
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http://www.ville-tulle.fr/sites/default/files/chemins_memoire.pdf
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are a part of the Holocaust? That's just too broad of a scope. â
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Jean-Jacques FouchĂ©, Oradour, Paris, Liana LĂ©vi,â 2001, 283 p. (
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How about legal reprisal against partisans and their helpers? --
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and click them, they will refer to the Bibliography items
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A fact from this article was featured on Knowledge (XXG)'s
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for additional information. I made the following changes:
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and find a hyperlinked Harvard style reference, such as
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is provided in the "Definition" section of the primary
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doesn't make the Tulle Massacre part of the Holocaust.
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We need to translate the French version to English.--
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article for an inclusive understanding of the term.
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The following discussion is an archived record of a
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This article has been checked against the following
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2002:using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
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No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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1020:. Such attempts at mitigation cannot be allowed.
1308:so go get the many to agree with you -- simple.
33:for general discussion of the article's subject.
1285:have a POV regarding my edits and won't accept
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1631:Where is there historical consensus that all
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961:based on the newly added section
908:If you try the same thing in the
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1941:Hello fellow Wikipedians,
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916:is linked,
878:Fouché 2001
874:Penaud 2005
625:translation
492:Structure:
205:section on
202:On this day
148:free images
31:not a forum
2064:Categories
2051:Report bug
936:Edited by
889:2912032768
730:"massacre"
2034:this tool
2027:this tool
1964:dead link
1859:. As per
1797:Mztourist
1734:Keith-264
1658:Holocaust
1604:Mztourist
1557:Aktion T4
1528:Mztourist
1464:Aktion T4
1425:Mztourist
1397:Holocaust
1389:consensus
1328:Mztourist
1295:Mztourist
1253:Mztourist
1205:Mztourist
1170:Mztourist
1133:Mztourist
1129:Kierzek's
1079:Mztourist
1041:Mztourist
1003:Mztourist
746:Frania W.
197:Main Page
88:if needed
71:Be polite
21:talk page
2040:Cheers.â
1886:Pincrete
1842:PizzaMan
1468:reprisal
1185:opinions
1166:your POV
1105:Thanks.
1072:removed
979:Mathglot
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834:unsigned
662:Matthead
453:criteria
376:European
56:get help
29:This is
27:article.
1968:tag to
1950:my edit
1865:Borsoka
1747:Comment
1585:Kierzek
1473:Icewhiz
1471:people.
1324:another
1291:nothing
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237:C-class
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859:Harvnb
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380:French
319:France
310:France
266:France
243:scale.
213:, and
126:Google
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631:from
169:JSTOR
130:books
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