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Talk:Type (model theory)

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because that element would be definable and so the extension would not be elementary. In reality, by compactness, we can realize the type in some elementary extension. As the property "There exists a unique element x such that for all y we have x not equal to s(y)" is first order and true in true arithemetic (or PA if you want), it will be true in the elementary extension given by compactness. So, I'm guessing your confusion was just with you thinking the non-example was an example.
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haven't read Wgunther's example yet, but I think for a first example it is probably just as well to stick to ordering only, as long as it's very clear to the reader that that's what we're doing. (In some sense I belive there is no "explicit" example of a proper elementary extension of the naturals with plus and times — what "explicit" means is usually not very well specified, which is a recurring problem in WP articles where the axiom of choice comes up.) --
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just assumed that Z is disjoint from N to make it just a union. Then defining the ordering in the extended structure is a bit simpler to write down. Enderton would probably be a good enough source. Chapter 3 talks about these models of the natural number. 3.2 talks about (essentially) our specific example, and how the nonstandard models of N with < and S are the same as with just N with S, which is just N with any Z chains you want.
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The notion of an elementary extension apparently includes also the arithmetic operations. My impression is that constructing such an extension is not a simple matter and may involve the axiom of choice or some weaker form of it. The example you presented seems to simple to have a chance of being an
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Right, our model isn't so complicated. It's just the theory of omega with membership. It is finitely axiomatizable and decidable. It actually would still be even if you added the successor function for ordinals too. And yes, the disjoint union of N and Z does the trick. That is what my example is, I
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Which operations are included in the notion depends on the language. If you're working in a language whose only non-logical symbol is the ordering, then you only have to worry about the ordering. If the language includes plus and times, then you have to worry about addition and multiplication. I
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As far as I can tell, there is no example where an elementary extension is constructed. Just one that says "Here's a type, if we could realize this in some elementary extension this is what we'd end up with." And then a warning that this isn't the same as just adding one element to realize the type
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Given a complete n-type p one can ask if there is a model of the theory that omits p, in other words there is no n-tuple in the model which realizes p. If p is an isolated point in the Stone space, i.e., if {p} is an open set. It is easy to see that every model realizes p (at least if the theory is
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This is really unhelpful to me and I know at least basic model theory. There needs to be an explanation of the relationship between topology and model theory - the link to the topological notion of an open point doesn't help me to understand how an element of a model's domain can be isolated. What
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1. Yes, I have corrected the example and noted it on the discussion page because I felt that a little explanation is in order. Sorry, if it confused anyone. I still think that the definitions could be cleared up a bit (preferably by an expert). 2. The lecture on logic that we have had (at Charles
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is often used to mean complete type, and partial type is used for the general notion. Unfortunately there is not widespread agreement on this, different papers have a different convention. In my experience, the latter view of types being complete is more widespread, as in many areas one need only
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I'm quite confident that the example given is not an elementary extension. If the language only contains the ordering, then adding the integers on top of the naturals would make it an elementary extension, as no new element without immediate predecessors would be added. If the language contains
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I agree that the article as it stands lacks sufficient context, and I've tried to add a better lede, but what I'm missing is _why_ types are significant, or some kind of analogy as to what they're _like_ -- for example it was explained to me that the diagram of a structure is 'analogous' to the
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This line is hard to understand because it is complicated and imprecise. The way it is stated, it can be interpreted as "a type is just a set of satisfiable formulas". Is the "sequence of elements" fixed for a given type? Is a type a set of _all_ formulas that are true of a sequence?
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is just another copy of the naturals. This is intentionally suggestive. The article even makes a point that you can't just add finitely many elements. The ordering though is not the standard ordering. I guess that could be clearer in the article, or we could just call it
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multiplication table for a group -- I cannot find any similar useful and correct analogy for types that would provide motivation for why we study them. The rest of the article does (I think) a good job explaining what types are and what you can do with them. Help!
550:. 2. In general a (partial) type is not required to be a filter. Any (partial) type has however its set of concequences which is a filter of the set of formulae. I prefer to use (partial) types this way, it is not however totally standard. Something else: The word 915: 2199:
One sense of "explicit" is provably impossible by Tenenbaum's theorem. At any rate, your point should be clearly spelled out in the article. If all one is looking for is the order, than the disjoint union of N and Z seems to do the trick, no?
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Anyway, wouldn't it make more sense to talk about the basic idea of types in the first sentence in order to build up some intuition before giving a formal definition? That would mitigate such imprecisions intrinsic to natural language. --
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I appreciate a lot the content of this article, but the language looks pretty obscure and at times just awkward. I wonder if somebody could improve it. Not being a specialist in type theory, I'd rather abstain from doing it myself.
1446: 2025:, you're suggesting that addition and multiplication are around, whereas if I now understand correctly, you just want the order. In that case it would probably be best to call it ω, which is the order type of the naturals. 1821:
confused me, and probably will confuse other people as well. Also, there's no mention of the language of the model, and as only the ordering is mentioned, I think most people will assume that the language is just
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I'm not sure why you think the other model satisfies that sentence. If you're correct about that, then of course you're also correct that it's not an elementary extension, but I don't think you are.
1848:. In this case, just putting a copy of the integers on top of the naturals suffices to give an elementary extension, and the ultrapower construction or the integers times the rationals is not needed. 1965:, the natural numbers with it's standard well ordering"). You're certainly right that this example can be made clearer and encyclopedic. I'll try to change it around later today if no one else does. 1963: 424: 1341: 151: 2446: 992:
Please explain what you mean by "the example given". As far as I can tell, 24.131.192.199 is correct; no well-specified "example" is given. In particular, nothing in the text says what
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are meant as a type in model of rationals then we would need examples of two conditions that are also met by some rational number. Or maybe what is meant by the example is a type in the
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complete). The omitting types theorem says that conversely if p is not isolated then there is a countable model omitting p (provided that the language is countable).
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I rewrote the example. I think it's more understandable now and the structures are less nebulous. People can feel free to revert if they think it was better before.
2674: 2494: 305: 1257:, or at least order-isomorphic? But the text nowhere says that. Or, if it does, then please give the specific quote so we know what you're talking about. -- 546: 35: 2082:
has in common with the naturals is cardinality; that is, you really just mean some countably infinite set. Then an "intentionally suggestive" notation of
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is "just a copy" of the naturals, you seem to be allowing yourself to re-interpret the non-logical symbols on it. In that case, the only thing
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No, I'm not confusing elementary equivalence with order isomorphism. :) The article reads: "This can be remedied by a new structure,
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And if this is meant to be some kind of "nonexample" of elementary equivalence, then this is not clear from the article.
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of arithmetics, because being consistent with a model of a theory and being consistent with a theory are differnt things?
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is supposed to be; it just says that it's the part of the elementary extension that lives above the standard naturals. --
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and the ordering on it by attaching two copies of the naturals end to end. After the construction it is claimed that "
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being a copy of the naturals. I see your point now, and everything makes sense. Denoting the added elements by
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times the rationals in a certain sense, but defining operations involves more work. Thus, one could use the
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addition, multiplication and so forth, then constructing an elementary extension would not be so easy.
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all have the property that there is only one element that does not have an immediate predecessor. --
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of the natural numbers with order is not actually elementary, as the model satisfies the sentence
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There should also be a link/mention of saturation since that concept is defined in terms of types
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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for you to conclude that the structures are not elementarily equivalent. Are you assuming that
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Hmm, honestly I don't think this is a good idea. First of all, by calling the standard model
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No, the article does not in fact do that. I suspect you're assuming that
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are elementarily equivalent is not true. Now for example the formula
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is consistent with the model). Thus, if the example statements about
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Two replies to the above. 1. As regards the example, it now reads
1711:. This is not the case. One can arrange for it to be a copy of 483:
I am not an expert on this, so a second opinion would be helpful.
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exactly are the conditions under which a type is omitted?
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has a least element? It doesn't assert that anywhere. --
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I don't see how there's enough information given about
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confuses me. I have corrected the obvious problem: If
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there are two elements with no immediate predecessor
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The definition of type that I know requests that if
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Can you source it? 58: 2602: 2583: 2570: 2564: 2543: 2524: 2511: 2505: 2481: 2456: 2455: 2453: 2429: 2410: 2397: 2382: 2361: 2360: 2358: 2313: 2312: 2310: 2091: 2089: 2087: 2064: 2062: 2060: 2037: 2035: 2033: 2011: 2010: 2008: 1987: 1986: 1984: 1942: 1941: 1936: 1917: 1916: 1914: 1890: 1889: 1886: 1827: 1803: 1802: 1799: 1776: 1775: 1772: 1719: 1718: 1716: 1697: 1696: 1694: 1671: 1670: 1667: 1618: 1617: 1614: 1591: 1590: 1587: 1517: 1516: 1508: 1487: 1486: 1484: 1463: 1457: 1456: 1453: 1430: 1429: 1421: 1420: 1395: 1389: 1360: 1359: 1351: 1350: 1348: 1325: 1324: 1316: 1315: 1313: 1292: 1286: 1285: 1282: 1241: 1240: 1238: 1212: 1211: 1209: 1166: 1165: 1157: 1136: 1135: 1133: 1112: 1106: 1105: 1102: 1081: 1075: 1074: 1071: 1050: 1044: 1043: 1040: 1000: 999: 997: 954: 953: 951: 926: 925: 922: 802: 776: 775: 773: 752: 751: 749: 664:Incorrect example of elementary extension 517: 499: 459: 457: 431: 375: 346: 317: 267: 261: 237: 232: 210: 202: 180: 178: 2611:{\displaystyle b_{1},b_{2},\dots ,b_{n}} 2552:{\displaystyle x_{1},x_{2},\dots ,x_{n}} 534: 529: 284: 279: 227:(say, in reals) then for y smaller than 2660:Knowledge vital articles in Mathematics 2341:, I guess that the following is meant: 1418: 60: 19: 1090:{\displaystyle {\mathcal {N}}^{\ast }} 1059:{\displaystyle {\mathcal {N}}^{\ast }} 1035:By the example given I mean the model 676:, which the naturals do not satisfy. 2675:B-Class vital articles in Mathematics 668:The example where one constructs the 7: 106:This article is within the scope of 555:consider complete types. Comments? 49:It is of interest to the following 1472:{\displaystyle {\mathcal {N}}^{*}} 1371: 1301:{\displaystyle {\mathcal {N}}^{*}} 1121:{\displaystyle {\mathcal {N}}^{*}} 867: 855: 831: 810: 804: 377: 14: 2685:Mid-priority mathematics articles 1662:Perhaps the IP is assuming that 445:{\displaystyle \phi \wedge \psi } 126:Knowledge:WikiProject Mathematics 2655:Knowledge level-5 vital articles 1233:is supposed to be isomorphic to 700:Nonstandard models of arithmetic 129:Template:WikiProject Mathematics 93: 83: 62: 29: 20: 2448:of elements of the universe of 1527:{\displaystyle L(\mathbb {N} )} 1226:{\displaystyle {\mathcal {N'}}} 1176:{\displaystyle L(\mathbb {N} )} 1014:{\displaystyle {\mathcal {N'}}} 939:{\displaystyle {\mathcal {N}}'} 790:{\displaystyle {\mathcal {N'}}} 146:This article has been rated as 2665:B-Class level-5 vital articles 2465:{\displaystyle {\mathcal {M}}} 2435: 2390: 2370:{\displaystyle {\mathcal {M}}} 2322:{\displaystyle {\mathcal {M}}} 1996:{\displaystyle {\mathcal {N}}} 1521: 1513: 1496:{\displaystyle {\mathcal {N}}} 1479:is an elementary extension of 1250:{\displaystyle {\mathcal {N}}} 1170: 1162: 1145:{\displaystyle {\mathcal {N}}} 1128:is an elementary extension of 963:{\displaystyle {\mathcal {N}}} 904: 901: 878: 849: 837: 816: 761:{\displaystyle {\mathcal {N}}} 531: 488:15:23, 25 September 2006 (UTC) 413: 410: 404: 395: 389: 383: 357: 351: 328: 322: 281: 1: 2500:formulas with free variables 2225:19:47, 15 February 2012 (UTC) 2210:17:34, 15 February 2012 (UTC) 2195:16:45, 15 February 2012 (UTC) 2180:16:32, 15 February 2012 (UTC) 2133:16:20, 15 February 2012 (UTC) 2119:22:35, 14 February 2012 (UTC) 2102:{\displaystyle \mathbb {N'} } 2075:{\displaystyle \mathbb {N'} } 2048:{\displaystyle \mathbb {N'} } 1975:19:32, 14 February 2012 (UTC) 1901:{\displaystyle \mathbb {N} '} 1858:18:45, 14 February 2012 (UTC) 1814:{\displaystyle \mathbb {N} '} 1787:{\displaystyle \mathbb {N} '} 1747:18:29, 14 February 2012 (UTC) 1682:{\displaystyle \mathbb {N} '} 1646:18:24, 14 February 2012 (UTC) 1629:{\displaystyle \mathbb {N} '} 1602:{\displaystyle \mathbb {N} '} 1577:17:01, 14 February 2012 (UTC) 1550:16:39, 14 February 2012 (UTC) 1267:16:31, 14 February 2012 (UTC) 1199:16:26, 14 February 2012 (UTC) 1031:08:21, 14 February 2012 (UTC) 986:07:38, 14 February 2012 (UTC) 733:22:47, 13 February 2012 (UTC) 712:23:17, 12 February 2012 (UTC) 692:23:11, 12 February 2012 (UTC) 426:holds in the model (that is, 220:{\displaystyle x={\sqrt {2}}} 120:and see a list of open tasks. 2680:B-Class mathematics articles 2018:{\displaystyle \mathbb {N} } 1924:{\displaystyle \mathbb {Z} } 1726:{\displaystyle \mathbb {N} } 1704:{\displaystyle \mathbb {N} } 570:20:07, 12 October 2006 (UTC) 247:{\displaystyle -{\sqrt {2}}} 744:Anyway, the statement that 620:18:36, 15 August 2008 (UTC) 601:18:33, 15 August 2008 (UTC) 560:10:25, 3 October 2006 (UTC) 469:{\displaystyle {\sqrt {2}}} 190:{\displaystyle {\sqrt {2}}} 2701: 657:12:10, 12 March 2010 (UTC) 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539:{\displaystyle y: --> 471: 447: 421: 365: 336: 302: 249: 222: 192: 36:level-5 vital article 2563: 2504: 2480: 2452: 2381: 2357: 2309: 2278:with free variables 2086: 2059: 2032: 2007: 1983: 1935: 1913: 1885: 1826: 1798: 1771: 1715: 1693: 1666: 1613: 1586: 1507: 1483: 1452: 1388: 1347: 1312: 1281: 1237: 1208: 1156: 1132: 1101: 1070: 1039: 996: 950: 921: 801: 772: 748: 670:elementary extension 606:saturated structures 498: 456: 430: 374: 345: 316: 260: 254:it is not true that 231: 201: 177: 132:mathematics articles 1689:is another copy of 548:2\implies }" /: --> 2608: 2549: 2496:is the set of all 2486: 2462: 2438: 2367: 2339:Model theory#Types 2319: 2099: 2072: 2045: 2015: 1993: 1955: 1921: 1898: 1838: 1811: 1784: 1723: 1701: 1679: 1626: 1599: 1524: 1493: 1469: 1438: 1419: 1374: 1333: 1298: 1247: 1223: 1173: 1142: 1118: 1087: 1056: 1011: 960: 936: 907: 787: 758: 536: 535: 530: 466: 442: 416: 360: 331: 295: 285: 280: 244: 217: 187: 173:The example about 101:Mathematics portal 45:content assessment 2622:Is this correct? 2489:{\displaystyle b} 2345:Given a language 1767:Ah, I did assume 1567:comment added by 1540:comment added by 1308:say, with domain 1189:comment added by 976:comment added by 682:comment added by 660: 643:comment added by 547:0\land y^{2}: --> 540:0\land y^{2}: --> 497:2\implies }": --> 496:0\land y^{2}: --> 464: 242: 215: 185: 169:Example of a type 166: 165: 162: 161: 158: 157: 2692: 2617: 2615: 2614: 2609: 2607: 2606: 2588: 2587: 2575: 2574: 2558: 2556: 2555: 2550: 2548: 2547: 2529: 2528: 2516: 2515: 2495: 2493: 2492: 2487: 2471: 2469: 2468: 2463: 2461: 2460: 2447: 2445: 2444: 2439: 2434: 2433: 2415: 2414: 2402: 2401: 2376: 2374: 2373: 2368: 2366: 2365: 2337:Given paragraph 2328: 2326: 2325: 2320: 2318: 2317: 2108: 2106: 2105: 2100: 2098: 2097: 2081: 2079: 2078: 2073: 2071: 2070: 2054: 2052: 2051: 2046: 2044: 2043: 2024: 2022: 2021: 2016: 2014: 2002: 2000: 1999: 1994: 1992: 1991: 1964: 1962: 1961: 1956: 1945: 1930: 1928: 1927: 1922: 1920: 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1191:84.248.64.88 1185:— Preceding 972:— Preceding 743: 739: 684:84.248.64.88 678:— Preceding 673: 669: 667: 634: 629: 609: 589: 573: 567:82.208.2.227 563: 551: 491: 485:82.208.2.227 482: 477: 311: 172: 148:Mid-priority 147: 107: 73:Mid‑priority 51:WikiProjects 34: 2498:first-order 2353:-structure 2305:-structure 2272:first-order 2264:mathematics 946:but not in 917:is true in 727:—Preceding 639:—Preceding 541:2\implies } 123:Mathematics 114:mathematics 70:Mathematics 2644:Categories 645:Dr satsuma 612:Zero sharp 593:Zero sharp 557:Thehalfone 307:x}" /: --> 2187:Trovatore 2111:Trovatore 1638:Trovatore 1259:Trovatore 1023:Trovatore 704:Trovatore 39:is rated 2217:Wgunther 2125:Wgunther 1967:Wgunther 1565:unsigned 1538:unsigned 1503:(w.r.t. 1187:unsigned 1152:(w.r.t. 974:unsigned 680:unsigned 653:contribs 641:unsigned 259:x}": --> 1850:Kreipas 729:undated 150:on the 41:B-class 2472:, the 2202:Tkuvho 2172:Tkuvho 1739:Tkuvho 1343:where 478:theory 47:scale. 2349:, an 524:: --> 505:: --> 290:: 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2509:x 2484:b 2458:M 2436:) 2431:n 2427:b 2423:, 2417:, 2412:2 2408:b 2404:, 2399:1 2395:b 2391:( 2388:= 2385:b 2363:M 2351:L 2347:L 2329:. 2315:M 2303:L 2298:n 2294:x 2290:2 2287:x 2283:1 2280:x 2276:L 2219:( 2204:( 2189:( 2174:( 2127:( 2113:( 2095:′ 2092:N 2068:′ 2065:N 2041:′ 2038:N 2012:N 1989:N 1969:( 1947:, 1943:N 1918:Z 1895:′ 1891:N 1852:( 1836:} 1830:{ 1808:′ 1804:N 1781:′ 1777:N 1741:( 1720:N 1698:N 1676:′ 1672:N 1640:( 1623:′ 1619:N 1596:′ 1592:N 1571:( 1544:( 1522:) 1518:N 1514:( 1511:L 1489:N 1459:N 1435:′ 1431:N 1422:N 1412:′ 1369:= 1365:′ 1361:N 1352:N 1330:′ 1326:N 1317:N 1288:N 1261:( 1243:N 1218:′ 1215:N 1193:( 1171:) 1167:N 1163:( 1160:L 1138:N 1108:N 1077:N 1046:N 1025:( 1006:′ 1003:N 980:( 956:N 933:′ 928:N 905:) 902:) 899:y 892:′ 889:w 882:w 879:( 875:′ 872:w 865:y 859:w 850:) 847:z 841:x 838:( 835:z 826:y 820:x 817:( 814:y 808:x 782:′ 779:N 754:N 735:. 721:( 706:( 686:( 647:( 614:( 595:( 527:2 519:2 515:y 508:0 502:y 462:2 414:) 411:) 408:x 405:( 396:) 393:x 390:( 384:( 381:x 358:) 355:x 352:( 329:) 326:x 323:( 293:x 287:y 277:2 269:2 265:y 240:2 213:2 208:= 205:x 183:2 154:. 53::

Index


level-5 vital article
content assessment
WikiProjects
WikiProject icon
Mathematics
WikiProject icon
icon
Mathematics portal
WikiProject Mathematics
mathematics
the discussion
Mid
project's priority scale
82.208.2.227
15:23, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
Thehalfone
10:25, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
82.208.2.227
20:07, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
Vlad Patryshev
16:06, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
Zero sharp
talk
18:33, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
Zero sharp
talk
18:36, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
unsigned
Dr satsuma

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