731:. Sometime around 1933, T.W. Norcross (who was USAF Chief Engineer from 1920 to 1947) hired W. Ellis Groben as the first architect on the HQ staff. Individual architects were also hired at each USFS region. To meet the demand for designs to support Civilian Conservation Corps construction projects, the regional architects hired additional architects and landscape designers to supervise the CCC work. This was the genesis of the regional architecture groups. In 1938, Groben released a book of "acceptable plans" for USFS administrative buildings. The era of handcrafted CCC buildings ended with the onset of World War II. After the war, there was an increase in recreational use of national forest lands. As a result, USFS architects began designing campgrounds, restrooms, trails, and other outdoors facilities. By the 1950s, most construction projects were for restoration or replacement of aging facilities. In the early 1960s, USFS architecture staffing surpassed the number of professionals that designed projects for the CCC. In the 1970s, USFS construction work was re-focused on environmental projects. More recently, modern visitor centers have been constructed in National Forests across the country. Hope this is helpful! For more info on USFS architectural organizations, you might consider contacting the
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correspond to about 25 OR and WA properties on the current list, and perhaps to split out the Region 2 group, which is architect of record for 4 items in WY. Please note the included list is not currently, and was not intended to be, a list of all notable buildings on U.S. Forest
Service property designed by just anyone. The included list is, rather, a list of works whose architecture is attributed to the USDA Forest Svce. Architecture Group or name variations, which may turn out to be several distinct offices/entities. This is like an architectural firm article, which usually includes a list of major works of the firm, which themselves are often not specifically attributable to just one architect of the firm. I don't think it will be possible to divide the current list by individual architects involved in each one, because attribution is shared. For example, I have now seen multiple individual architects given partial credit for aspects of design of
554:(ec) Or, the current article might be revised to include specifics about the architecture of several groups. Orlady's assertions to the contrary, there's a lot in the "Depression-Era Buildings" of OR and WA document about the Northwest office and some information regarding it vs. other divisions of Forest Service architects. One passage is: "Each Forest Service Region developed characteristic expression of the rustic style that was particular to its geographical area, and predicated in part, on traditional architectural styles and building techniques. The style that emerged from the Pacific Northwest Region had no clearly identifiable architectural prototype, but reflected the inf1uence of the English Cottage and Norman Farmhouse styles." (page 6).
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regional style and was approved of by the national consulting architect in the 1940 document. Its architects are the
Architecture Group that editors at the AFD are saying never existed. :) Also, there is more about the Region 3 Arizona, due to availability of corresponding MPS document, than for others, so it should probably be second (i'll move it now). I agree that an upfront explanation of the order of presentation, if different than numeric order, is needed. Feel free o try a different ordering and to revise the introduction or otherwise develop. I am, myself, pretty sick of the AFD about this, which continues after all the early arguments against this article have been disproved. --
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government organization that probably never existed under the name you have given it here, and about which you have only the slightest amount of information. I'm trying to decide between (1) moving this page to your user space, (2) taking it to AfD, or (3) simply slapping notability and original research templates on the article. You could, however, prevent any and all of these outcomes by voluntarily moving the page to your user space until you have obtained and documented some solid information on which to base an encyclopedic article on whatever topic turns out to be appropriate. --
325:, a "thematic resources" document of the National Register of Historic Places (NRHP) which is basis for NRHP listing of some of the Oregon and Washington state properties. I am creating articles for some of the places listed in this article and found this document. I think it should provide some more context, tho i have yet to read it in detail. I may be able to dig up more documents too, but NRHP documents are on-line generally for only some of the states relevant here (including OR but not WA, ID). --
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385:. When I looked at the article after seeing Hike395's comment, my first reaction was that this was a speculative piece that does not belong in article space. I realized, however, that it is a legitimate list of buildings associated with the Forest Service that have historic designations, so I decided to helpfully repurpose it as a list and add wikilinks to some other relevant articles. Silly of me to dream that my good intentions might possibly be received with something other than derision.
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an encyclopedia article. However, as I indicated above, the list has merit. I greatly prefer to simply repurpose the article, rather than waste other administrators' time with your insistence on a full-blown requested-move discussion. But if your goal is to call negative attention to yourself on
Knowledge noticeboards once again, I suppose that an RM discussion might help you do that. --
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as facts warrant, was and is appropriate. Knowledge is not done; there was no coverage of this topic before. Orlady's butting in with argumentative judgments (such as the incorrect assertion that the
Northwest group is discussed only once within one document), coming from a non-interested-in-NRHPs, non-interested-in-architecture perspective, is not helpful IMHO. --
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for it, frankly. Orlady, i wish you would choose not to splash all sorts of negativity here. Let hiker guy and me and others develop some, like i said already. You're not really interested in NRHP-listed places or architects, are you? You have said you are not, repeatedly. So, I would prefer you would comment somewhere else, and leave this to those interested. --
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specifically attributed to the USDA Forest Svce. Architecture Group, which now seems to mean the
Pacific Northwest region group. It is documented that the Pacific Northwest region group has a distinct character, an architectural design "voice", and it is documented who several of its individual architects are.
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That passage you quote is what i just added to this article, before seeing Orlady's comment here. It's not the only mention of the architecture group in the document however, contrary to Orlady's assertion. I don't know what the "bottom line" really is yet, but i wouldn't want to take Orlady's word
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In 1908, the USFS established an
Engineering Division at its Washington HQ along with subordinate engineering organizations in each of its regional offices. The HQ approved project funding, but building designs were left to the rangers in the field. In fact prior to 1917, there is no record of the
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All that might be emerging is that the article should perhaps be renamed and reorganized to cover several architecture groups, each with a sublist of works, or equivalently that the article should be split into several articles. I think starting the article as was done, and sorting out organization
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Ah, you say that is not the only mention of the "Architecture Group" in the article. I find one other mention, except it says that they were the "Architectural Group." I suppose you are now going to revise the article to say that this historic division of the Forest
Service was "sometimes also known
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Bottom line is that the "Architecture Group" is 5 people who once worked in a Forest
Service Region Office. It is not clear from the source that the organization named in your article title of "United States Forest Service Architecture Group" ever existed. There is no basis for it to be the topic of
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Hike395's comment and your reply make it clear that you have no idea what the "United States Forest
Service Architecture Group" is or was (including whether it still exists), but you decided to write a factual article on the subject of the Architecture Group, apparently based solely on the existence
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There's no question that there is merit in documenting the historic architecture of the New Deal era, but that does not justify creating a new article before you have anything more than a vague idea that there might possibly be a topic out there, somewhere. You have created an article about a small
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in OR. And when "USDA Forest Svce. Architecture Group" or a variation is specifically given as the architect of record for a place, that probably means that credit cannot be assigned to just one individual. I do think that some of the individual architects merit separate articles, such as the new
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Apparently because i edited here, and because the editor can find fault, an editor who follows my edits (but bizarrely claims not to) chose to move this article with no discussion. I returned it. I don't welcome a
Requested Move discussion, because this article is better left to be developed as I
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Please note also that heavy-handed titling as a "List of..." is not required. Lists of works often are included within articles named for a specific architect or architectural firm. Sometimes lists of works are split out, when the biographical article seems best split from a too-long list. Here
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Not surprisingly, I disagree with Orlady's views. There is merit in starting an article about an architectural group of the U.S. government that is notable, just as there is for notable private architectural firms, and sooner is basically better than later. In this case there are about 25 works
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That could work, but I don't know that there is material conveniently available about architects and distinctive styles of each region. The Pacific northwest Region 6 is most important and I think it works to have it be first, as it is now. It is the one region that had developed on its own a
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Doncram asked me for comments on this article--so here go... Don’t believe there has ever been a single U.S. Forest Service Architecture Group. However, each USFS region has had an architecture group within its Engineering Division for a long time—most of these groups date back to the 1930s.
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And while I don't share your fascination with the details of what day a site was listed on the Register, what its serial number is, whether the roof is made with asphalt shingles or shakes, and how many tenths of an acre are in the tract, I refuse to give up caring about history and people and
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I am certainly open to some adjustment as the facts are made more clear by development of individual articles and by uncovering of sources. One option may be to split out the Pacific Northwest regional office architectural group, which I believe is Region 6, into one article, which seems to
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As of now, the article is organized by region. If that is the appropriate way to organize the article (and I'm not saying it isn't), it would be helpful to put them in numeric order and to have an introductory sentence identifying the states/territory covered by each region.
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Now, I think we should think about how to improve the article, rather than rushing to delete. One possibility is to split the article into multiple lists. If each architect in the group is notable, then we can easily write list articles like
473:, because the group is only mentioned twice in one NRHP article. I don't think this counts as "significant coverage", because we still don't know basic facts about the group. I did some more research, tonight, and still didn't find anything.
42:
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of entries in the National Register's NRIS database that name this group. This kind of creation of content from little more than thin air is one of the types of behavior that have placed you on the hot seat recently at
719:. It has excellent sources and numerous Public Domain photos and perspective drawing. It also lists the names of USFS architects and has biographies of leading USFS architects. Here’s quick outline of its contents:
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as the 'Architectural Group'." Basically, however, you are making an article out of thin air. If you don't know what the basic facts about the topic are, you should not be creating articles in article space.
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in the Regional Office responsible for all building design and site planning included architects Linn A. Forrest, Howard L. Gifford, James Pollock and W.I. "Tim" Turner, and Landscape Architect Emmett U.
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You supply another reference above. The document you cite only confirms that there is no basis for the article title. That document is about Forest Service buildings that were mostly built by the
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After a brief search, I cannot find material on the web that supports this article: does the group currently exist? What dates was it active? Where does it fit into the USFS organization?
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715:. That will re-focus the article on the history of USFS architecture rather than small functional organizations within the agency. Here’s a great document on the
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Ironically, that list was the most solid part of this article, since the organization that is the ostensible subject of the article may not have existed. --
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USFS employing any architects on its staff. Two important documents that helped standardize USFS architectural designs were published in 1928—the
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section of each of these list articles can point to the rest, precisely because the architects worked together. What do other editors think? —
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There are perhaps a few editors who might be interested in developing split-out on the Northwest regional architect group, including perhaps
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was proceeding. At some later time a rename may be appropriate. But, if someone opens a move discussion i will comment there. --
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and apparently had obtained its NRHP document among many other sources used in the first mainspace version of that article. --
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1058:, Randle Ranger Station, Gifford Pinchot National Forest Randle WA (USDA Forest Svce. Architecture Group), NRHP-listed
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1130:, Illinois Valley Rd., Siskiyou National Forest Cave Junction OR (USDA Forest Svce. Architecture Group), NRHP-listed
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878:, Illinois Valley Rd., Siskiyou National Forest Cave Junction OR (USDA Forest Svce. Architecture Group), NRHP-listed
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related to the subject of the article. Moving unverified items back here will not be considered edit warring, per
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1172:, Forest Rd. 285 S of Springerville, Apache--Sitgreaves NF Springerville AZ (USDA Forest Service), NRHP-listed
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The Region 6 expression of rustic was intended to characterize the Forest Service in the Pacific Northwest. The
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866:, Nezperce National Forest, 9 mi. N of USFS Burgdorf Guard Sta, Burgdorf, ID (USDA Forest Service), NRHP-listed
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there is no apparent need yet to split out a separate architectural firm type article from a list of its works.
1160:, Mt. Baker, Snoqualmie National Forest Granite Falls WA (USDA Forest Svce. Architecture Group), NRHP-listed
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884:, Off WY 130 NW of Centennial, Medicine Bow NF Centennial WY (USDA Forest Service, Region 2), NRHP-listed
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1088:, Forest Rd. 130 (formerly AZ 260), Apache-Sitgreaves NF Pinedale AZ (USDA Forest Service), NRHP-listed
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962:, IA 86 about 4 mi. N-NW of jct. with US 71 Milford IA (USDA Bureau of Biological Survey), NRHP-listed
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1022:, Wallowa-Whitman National Forest Enterprise OR (USDA Forest Svce. Architecture Group), NRHP-listed
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896:, In Chiricahua Wilderness NE of Douglas, Coronado NF Douglas AZ (USDA Forest Service), NRHP-listed
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796:, N of Big Creek, Idaho Primitive Area, Payette NF, Big Creek, ID (USDA Forest Service), NRHP-listed
392:(not the Forest Service). The only mention of the "Architecture Group" is in the following passage:
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1046:, Roughly bounded by Mondeaux River and Forest Rd. Westboro WI (USDA Forest Service), NRHP-listed
998:, Gifford Pinchot National Forest Packwood WA (USDA Forest Svce. Architecture Group), NRHP-listed
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956:, Rogue River National Forest Butte Falls OR (USDA Forest Svce. Architecture Group), NRHP-listed
838:, Rogue River National Forest, Butte Falls, OR (USDA Forest Svce. Architecture Group), NRHP-listed
832:, WY 130 E of Saratoga, Medicine Bow NF, Saratoga, WY (USDA Forest Service, Region 2), NRHP-listed
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
1148:, Forest Rd. 68F SW of Camp Verde, Prescott NF Camp Verde AZ (USDA Forest Service), NRHP-listed
1106:, Gifford Pinchot National Forest Randle WA (USDA Forest Svce. Architecture Group), NRHP-listed
872:, Mt. Hood National Forest Cascade Locks OR (USDA Forest Svce. Architecture Group), NRHP-listed
1154:, Wallowa-Whitman National Forest Unity OR (USDA Forest Svce. Architecture Group), NRHP-listed
1034:, Off Sabino Canyon Rd. NE of Tucson, Coronado NF Tucson AZ (USDA Forest Service), NRHP-listed
1016:, Wenatchee National Forest Leavenworth WA (USDA Forest Svce. Architecture Group), NRHP-listed
890:, Wenatchee National Forest Leavenworth WA (USDA Forest Svce. Architecture Group), NRHP-listed
1004:, Winema National Forest Klamath Falls OR (USDA Forest Svce. Architecture Group), NRHP-listed
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944:, Siskiyou National Forest Gold Beach OR (USDA Forest Svce. Architecture Group), NRHP-listed
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908:, NE of Black Canyon City, Tonto NF Black Canyon City AZ (USDA Forest Service), NRHP-listed
826:, Willamette National Forest, Detroit, OR (USDA Forest Svce. Architecture Group), NRHP-listed
1064:, Mt. Hood National Forest Parkdale OR (USDA Forest Svce. Architecture Group), NRHP-listed
1028:, Okanogan National Forest Tonasket WA (USDA Forest Svce. Architecture Group), NRHP-listed
1010:, Ochoco National Forest Prineville OR (USDA Forest Svce. Architecture Group), NRHP-listed
926:, Okanogan National Forest Winthrop WA (USDA Forest Svce. Architecture Group), NRHP-listed
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1142:, Malheur National Forest John Day OR (USDA Forest Svce. Architecture Group), NRHP-listed
974:, Malheur National Forest John Day OR (USDA Forest Svce. Architecture Group), NRHP-listed
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1178:, Mt. Hood National Forest Zigzag OR (USDA Forest Svce. Architecture Group), NRHP-listed
1136:, AZ 87 W of Punkin Center, Tonto NF Punkin Center AZ (USDA Forest Service), NRHP-listed
992:, SW of Douglas, Medicine Bow NF Douglas WY (USDA Forest Service, Region 2), NRHP-listed
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1100:, Forest Rd. 42A SW of Portal, Coronado NF Portal AZ (Usda Forest Service), NRHP-listed
844:, Deschutes National Forest, Bend, OR (USDA Forest Svce. Architecture Group), NRHP-listed
860:, Forest Rd. 52B N of Canelo, Coronado NF, Canelo, AZ (USDA Forest Service), NRHP-listed
814:, Yellow Pine, Payette National Forest, Big Creek, ID (USDA Forest Service), NRHP-listed
1070:, Deschutes National Park Bend OR (USDA Forest Svce. Architecture Group), NRHP-listed
986:, W of Albany, Medicine Bow NF Albany WY (USDA Forest Service, Region 2), NRHP-listed
938:, Umpqua National Forest Glide OR (USDA Forest Svce. Architecture Group), NRHP-listed
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808:, Off I-17 NE of Rimrock, Coconino NF, Rimrock, AZ (USDA Forest Service), NRHP-listed
510:(one of those who gets partial credit for Timberline Lodge) which I opened yesterday.
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1052:, Off US 180 N of Tusayan, Kaibab NF Tusayan AZ (USDA Forest Service), NRHP-listed
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902:, AZ 366 SW of Safford, Coronado NF Safford AZ (USDA Forest Service), NRHP-listed
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1112:, SE of Chiricahua NM, Coronado NF Douglas AZ (Usda Forest Service), NRHP-listed
1076:, Sitting Bull Falls, Lincoln NF Carlsbad NM (USDA-Forest Service), NRHP-listed
950:, Sitting Bull Falls, Lincoln NF Carlsbad NM (USDA-Forest Service), NRHP-listed
920:, Sitting Bull Falls, Lincoln NF Carlsbad NM (USDA-Forest Service), NRHP-listed
914:, W of Crown King, Prescott NF Crown King AZ (USDA Forest Service), NRHP-listed
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1118:, Brewer Rd. S. of Hart Rd. Sedona AZ (USDA/USFS Standard Plans), NRHP-listed
820:, Along Ryan Rd., Kaibab NF, Big Springs, AZ (Usda Forest Service), NRHP-listed
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1166:, NW of Prescott, Prescott NF Prescott AZ (USDA Forest Service), NRHP-listed
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Start-Class National Register of Historic Places articles of Low-importance
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932:, National Forest Rd. 2181 Alvin WI (USDA Forest Service), NRHP-listed
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802:, Boise National Forest, Atlanta, ID (USDA Forest Service), NRHP-listed
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1094:, S of AZ 288, Tonto NF Young AZ (USDA Forest Service), NRHP-listed
968:, Address Restricted Isabella MN (USDA Forest Service), NRHP-listed
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I'm also concerned about this article: I don't think it fulfills the
1082:, S of Globe, Tonto NF Globe AZ (USDA Forest Service), NRHP-listed
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Knowledge:Administrators' noticeboard/Archive224#Doncram NRHP stubs
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980:, 309 Gorge St. Ketchikan AK (USDA Forest Service), NRHP-listed
1124:, Off US 80 Tallulah LA (USDA Delta Laboratory), NRHP-listed
725:
Forest Service National Manual of Regulations and Instructions
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Sigh, i see SarekOfVulcan is now butting in too. Oh great. --
54:
26:
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Low-importance National Register of Historic Places articles
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In view of the above response, I took the article to AfD. --
1040:, SE of Avery Avery ID (USDA Forest Service), NRHP-listed
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Notable works (with attribution variations noted) include:
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Knowledge:WikiProject National Register of Historic Places
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Start-Class National Register of Historic Places articles
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Template:WikiProject National Register of Historic Places
238:, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of U.S.
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Regarding this article, I’d recommend changing title to
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Group Picnic Shelter-Sitting Bull Falls Recreation Area
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Work of the "Architecture Group" is described some in
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Hopefully other editors can provide this information —
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Talk:United States Forest Service Architecture Group
1008:Lamonta Compound-Prineville Supervisor's Warehouse
171:This article has not yet received a rating on the
1074:Picnic Shelter-Sitting Bull Falls Recreation Area
854:, Williams, AZ (USDA Forest Service), NRHP-listed
235:WikiProject National Register of Historic Places
262:National Register of Historic Places articles
8:
1002:Lake of the Woods Ranger Station-Work Center
754:Moved from mainpage, as many items here are
1158:Verlot Ranger Station-Public Service Center
479:List of buildings designed by James Pollock
323:this "Depression-Era Buildings TR" document
227:National Register of Historic Places portal
58:
960:Iowa Lakeside Laboratory Historic District
184:
86:
972:John Day Compound, Supervisor's Warehouse
733:National Museum of Forest Service History
713:United States Forest Service Architecture
1403:Unknown-importance Architecture articles
924:Early Winters Ranger Station Work Center
800:Atlanta Ranger Station Historic District
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717:history of Forest Service architecture
729:Construction and Maintenance Handbook
41:on 19 July 2011 (UTC). The result of
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253:National Register of Historic Places
244:National Register of Historic Places
232:This article is within the scope of
196:National Register of Historic Places
131:This article is within the scope of
77:It is of interest to the following
1128:Store Gulch Guard Station No. 1020
151:Knowledge:WikiProject Architecture
25:
1398:Start-Class Architecture articles
1104:Randle Ranger Station-Work Center
1056:North Fork Guard Station No. 1142
996:La Wis Wis Guard Station No. 1165
154:Template:WikiProject Architecture
1170:Water Canyon Administrative Site
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1110:Rustler Park Fire Guard Station
850:, Off US 66/89 SW of Williams,
276:This article has been rated as
37:This article was nominated for
1092:Pleasant Valley Ranger Station
1:
299:Cannot find material on Group
250:and see a list of open tasks.
145:and see a list of open tasks.
1044:Mondeaux Dam Recreation Area
894:Cima Park Fire Guard Station
876:Cedar Guard Station No. 1019
1164:Walnut Creek Ranger Station
1140:Supervisor's House No. 1001
888:Chatter Creek Guard Station
806:Beaver Creek Ranger Station
390:Civilian Conservation Corps
1434:
1068:Paulina Lake Guard Station
1014:Leavenworth Ranger Station
906:Copper Creek Guard Station
848:Camp Clover Ranger Station
836:Butte Falls Ranger Station
818:Big Springs Ranger Station
282:project's importance scale
173:project's importance scale
1383:21:15, 25 July 2011 (UTC)
1360:21:06, 25 July 2011 (UTC)
942:Gold Beach Ranger Station
912:Crown King Ranger Station
870:Cascade Locks Work Center
824:Breitenbush Guard Station
794:Arctic Point Fire Lookout
784:14:35, 19 July 2011 (UTC)
769:13:51, 19 July 2011 (UTC)
745:04:07, 20 July 2011 (UTC)
695:16:57, 19 July 2011 (UTC)
661:15:07, 19 July 2011 (UTC)
603:14:33, 19 July 2011 (UTC)
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546:13:33, 19 July 2011 (UTC)
495:03:29, 19 July 2011 (UTC)
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368:00:40, 19 July 2011 (UTC)
342:23:46, 18 July 2011 (UTC)
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1134:Sunflower Ranger Staiton
1020:Lick Creek Guard Station
930:Franklin Lake Campground
842:Cabin Lake Guard Station
316:09:23, 1 June 2011 (UTC)
134:WikiProject Architecture
1146:Sycamore Ranger Station
1086:Pinedale Ranger Station
1062:Parkdale Ranger Station
1026:Lost Lake Guard Station
966:Isabella Ranger Station
864:Carey Dome Fire Lookout
830:Brush Creek Work Center
978:Ketchikan Ranger House
900:Columbine Work Station
882:Centennial Work Center
67:This article is rated
1333:National Park Service
1176:Zigzag Ranger Station
1116:Sedona Ranger Station
1098:Portal Ranger Station
1032:Lowell Ranger Station
858:Canelo Ranger Station
157:Architecture articles
1152:Unity Ranger Station
1080:Pinal Ranger Station
1050:Moqui Ranger Station
1038:Mallard Peak Lookout
990:La Prele Work Center
984:Keystone Work Center
954:Imnaha Guard Station
936:Glide Ranger Station
812:Big Creek Commissary
765:SarekOfVulcan (talk)
527:Unity Ranger Station
471:notability criteria
126:Architecture portal
397:Architecture Group
73:content assessment
1335:. March 13, 2009.
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278:Low-importance
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242:listed on the
240:historic sites
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1122:Shirley Field
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750:Database dump
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525:who started
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277:
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148:Architecture
139:Architecture
132:
98:Architecture
79:WikiProjects
47:no consensus
46:
506:article on
446:quality. --
69:Start-class
1392:Categories
1183:References
481:. And the
852:Kaibab NF
727:and the
483:see also
39:deletion
1345:Regions
487:hike395
308:hike395
280:on the
776:Orlady
737:Orygun
687:Orlady
595:Orlady
523:Orygun
448:Orlady
408:Orlady
75:scale.
1352:Cbl62
383:WP:AN
1356:talk
780:talk
762:. --
741:talk
691:talk
599:talk
491:talk
452:talk
412:talk
312:talk
45:was
1374:ncr
756:not
735:.--
652:ncr
571:ncr
537:ncr
429:ncr
359:ncr
333:ncr
272:Low
167:???
1394::
1379:am
1369:do
1358:)
1331:.
1325:.
1190:^
782:)
743:)
693:)
657:am
647:do
601:)
576:am
566:do
542:am
532:do
493:)
454:)
434:am
424:do
414:)
364:am
354:do
338:am
328:do
314:)
1354:(
778:(
739:(
689:(
597:(
489:(
450:(
410:(
310:(
284:.
175:.
81::
49:.
20:)
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