Talk:Vasconic substrate hypothesis

1587:

rejected. And exactly that is the problem: Which of both alternatives is more likely and hopefully can be proved. A proof (necessity) would consist in giving a list of arguments for one or the other. The first entry would run as follows: After studying Basque for some years, I have the impression, that it is more conservative than the indoeuropean language group, which looks like the most rapidly changing language group of the world. A second point would be to count the number of semantically founded etymologies of place names, singling out all folk etymologies. A third point would be to deal with those Germanic words, which have no indoeuropean etymology a la Pokorny, Kluge/Seebold and that new Danish contribution. Probably the sufficient part of the proof never can be given. So perhaps the language component remains unsolved. But there are three other components, which have to fill in the gaps: Anthropology to which today DNA-analysis has tremendous contributions (MIT, Stanford, Dresden), archeology and mythology. Again, Vennemann discusses all of that, Krahe & al. not.

1227:

even peoples. By the way, it is not appropriate to cite scientists, which nobody knows, you call them phoneticians for Silbenschnitt-theories, what ever that means. Please deliver one etymology of V which fails. Please name just one methodical shortcoming of V. If there is, there would be an easy way out: Just list up all those etymologies in a list and try to understand them like above the bi-two example (by the way - Trask's etymology of Biarritz is pure non-sense compared to V's one). Doing this, there is no way of any methodical shortcoming since there is only one mathematical concept involved, a set. Does your comment mean, that Basque is not a language? Well - I have been there and found people to communicate in Basque - it works. A Neandertal argument is easy to wrong, since Neandertalers and Denosovians now easily can be identified - from genetics.

1567:). (I agree that the map probably shows the area claimed for "Semitidic", although I thought it included at least Denmark and perhaps Northern Germany too, or at least parts of those regions, in view of the claimed "Semitidic" influence on Germanic, even if it was a more superstratum-like influence, which still requires some migration in prehistoric times.) In fact, Vennemann's "Vasconic" essentially covers all of Europe, which is why his "theory" is so outrageous – had he limited himself to the claim that Basque-related languages were once spoken all over Western Europe as in the map, his idea wouldn't have been considered nearly as implausible. But a language family that covered all of Mesolithic/Neolithic Europe?! That just beggars belief! If you don't see why, check North America. 1420:

going down to the Isartor. Since there are no hills in the center, Trask would have concluded, that there was a monk, presumely in the 14th century and a fat one, named "im Tal". Note that "Tal" means "¬hills". And - west of Muenchen there is "Schwabmuenchen", which according to the Knowledge (XXG) first was called "Mantahinga". Surely "Schwab" was added later to distinguish it from Muenchen, when this became more important. There were no monks there either but hills right on the western side of the river Wertach, like in Muenchen on the eastern banks of the Isar. Another place to compare with is aquintanian Mende with a phantastic view from the new toll bridge in the west, which proves everything. It never has been celtic, their expansion to the west ended in Le Puys en Velais!

789:

the article completely. It is not worth reading. By the way: How does Vennemann's theory differ from the laryngeal theory? Both lead to conclusions and I think Vennemann is in the lead. For instance: Take his big book into your backpack and go hiking in the Prignitz, like Fontane did some 150 years ago. You will find dramatic things, not only a huge city and many kurgans, but also a stone wall of 7 km length, which nobody has described yet. You even can see that wall in Google Maps! Many toponyms there can be given a semitic meaning, with better semantics than slavonic ones. And there is the DNA-analysis of Skoglund & al. of that lady in Gotland, which is based in the eastern Mediterranean. It fits exactly into V. theory of a semitic origin of the megalith culture!

933:

Vasconic with Marija Gimbutas to Old Prussian language, which in turn was largerly spoked with Lithuanian and Latvian languages in the south east corner of Baltic Sea. Which are combined in Baltic language sub group (with lot of influence of non indo european Finno Ugrian )in indo european language group. In fact, Lithuanian language is the eldest indo european language spoked in Europe. This language mixed with Finno Ugrian languages influenced also Alte Deutsch. Also compare with Piktri. Baski language is older than any of the indo european languages, belonging to the same age group with Finno Ugrian languages which means it is at least 7.000 years in age.

1467:

he came from. So there is no way out: We have to believe that it is no folk etymology. In Muenchen and Schwabmuenchen we have nothing like that and therefore your ,non-likely' is wronged from the beginning. More general, it is a bad idea, to name a place after something which is everywhere, like Muenchen after monks, Ebersberg after bores, Pritzwalk after wolves, the Karawanken after Gemsen, Perleberg after clay. For inventing names, you have to find something which is attached to the place and is not typical for the neighbourhood. In topology (mathematically constructed over logic) they call it isolated. Otherwise communication becomes tedious.

1367:

of the type Bischofs-... . So Vennemanns idea to back trace these to basque bide (way) is a nice one, actually part of a diagram, and makes one to look for a better etymology of Munic. Go for instance to Bischofshofen south of Salzburg, a classical example of a bide. By the way - I'm an expert in the history of early Brandenburg. There are a lot of monastaries there, all of them well reported - because monks did paper work. Please note that Germans usually built their settlements besides the already existing ones of the Romans, the Walchen, in Brandenburg of the Slawonics.

540:

together with an influence onto the Germanic languages. He has made both a theory in the sense that he added many examples and in addition made them compatible with existing theories of languages. Both parts go back to before 1900, and it is way of original research to find out those who were the original authors. There even has been an attempt to relate pre-Greek Pelasgian to such a *vasconic substrat. This ought to be mentioned in the article, which should not be written either pro or contra this theory.

1180:. Although I can think of even less polite descriptions of Vennemann's work – yes, all of it, even the parts that are frequently cited, for example those regarding phonetic or morphological theory. There are countless holes and methodic shortcomings in his work, and frequently enough he is only cited because those who cite him are no better informed in the respective areas than he himself is. Just ask a phonetician about the empirical evidence for the existence of something like 71: 53: 1663:

languages). The rate or speed at which languages change (which is hard to quantify anyway) isn't constant but no known language, no matter how conservative, has remainde virtually identical over several millennia, which is what fringe hypotheses like Vasconic or Paleolithic Continuity require (and to a less extreme extent the Anatolian hypothesis too), and that's exactly why they are fringe (as Ringe explains).

182: 81: 22: 277: 256: 929:

connection in name and source location it can be linked to Vaskiland, what is in fact Silverland in old Finnish language, presumably named after the minerals including silver. More modern version for vaski / silver is hopea in different dialectic forms as hopia /hobie (Karelian / Vepsä). Here you see straight connection of Vennemann´s theory and practice which still exist even today.

1346:

of the Basque Language" he writes "... Munich doesn't have any hills". From my four years biking experience in Munich I know there are and - Munich is full of place names containing -berg- : Traveling there he could have a beer on the Nockerberg, living in a hotel in Berg am Laim, avoiding Hasenbergl. In addition there never has been a report on monks or a monastery in Munich.

287: 694:

is not a 'Wanderwort'. This leads to taking into account a sub-, superstrat relation (what else? don't come up with coincidence) between Basque and Indoeuropean, i.e. to Vennemann. This relation must have taken place before the Indoeuropeans split, i.e. 'voreinzelsprachlich'. Note that 2 in the Turkish languages 'iki' and in the Semitic languages 'etnain' are not related.

172: 151: 455: 379: 361: 1671:

What Vennemann engages in is still folk etymology. Semantics isn't everything by any means; formal considerations are even more important. His mistake is exactly thinking that Modern Basque can stand in for its ancient (even Neolithic or Mesolithic) ancestral stages, when even the Aquitanian evidence

1466:

Ok, F.B. you seem to know everything. But, this is preaching, i.e. religion ex cathedra and not science. Remember how it all started: with comparisons. So compare Muenchen with the etymology of Moenchen-Gladbach. There, and about the same time, we know the name of the monk, the time and the monastery

1264:

What? You don't know what you are talking about. No historical linguist I know takes Vasconic, or Vennemann's etymologies, seriously (except for his own students). If there were any, there would be citations. Trask was an expert on the history of Basque! (Akerbeltz knows this subject very well, too.)

1128:"It is not nearly formalized or testable enough to be a hypothesis"—if it is not formalized or testable enough to be a hypothesis, then it cannot be a theory. A "theory" is a hypothesis that has been tested and supported by those tests. If it is not a hypothesis, and not a theory, what do we call it? 815:

The material currently in the article might be merged to Vennemann, but the term Vasconic has wider usage than that. It is also used for the generally accepted suggestion that Aquitanian is related to Basque. Although A. might have merely been a Basque dialect, that is not certain, and therefore they

1350:

You clearly know very little about the history of Munich. Unfortunately for you, I grew up there. So... the areas you mention are *way* outside what is considered the historic center of Munich. They may be boroughs today but back when Munich was a backwater village, they were half a days travel from

1145:

Q:Why isn't there a criticisms/controversies section? A: Because a section dedicated to criticisms and controversies is no more appropriate than a section dedicated solely to praises and is an indication of a poorly written article. Criticisms/controversies/praises should be worked into the existing

737:

Ouch, where to start... Ok, dump all the Scottish place names, going via the anglicised forms is abortive in itself (Arrochar < An t-Arar, Orchy < Urchaidh, Urquhart < Urchadain (from Pictish "woodside"), Arkaig < Arceig, Ericht < Eireachd, Pitlochry < Peit Chloichrigh (veriafiably

693:

But using the bv-soundshift is not the end of the argument. It is the beginning of a consideration: 2 is not a cultural word in the sense of Linus Brunner (read his introduction) because it is known to all peoples from the beginning, hence it can't have been overtaken from some people passing by. It

1586:

Sorry, but again you are at odds with logic. The same label ,outrageous' (I think even more so, but this POV) has to be attached to the theory that there has been a proto-indoeuropean unique language in this huge area, which introduced the ,old-European' hydronomy, like Krahe believed and Vennemann

1447:

were the result of a medieval folk etymology (which is impossible to prove and in any case not likely – the monks are not actually missing, despite your and Vennemann's protestations, they just were not necessarily a big community, and may have been no more than a couple of hermits), that would not

1366:

Too shy to be to the Pupplinger Au? There are hills and moving the Isar upstream towards Gruenwald they become steeper. According to the history of Munic, you seem to know something which nobody else knows. There were no monks in Munic - never, like there were no bishops in those many German places

1345:

Trask - well - he should be named "the Master of folk etymologies". What he writes on the etymology of Biarritz is really odd! Did he never travel there? And his remarks on Vennemanns etymology of "Muenchen" even is worse. Page 72 of his article "Origin and Relatives of Basque" in "Toward a History

1310:

Please Florian Blaschke stop thinking in a medivial way, in German "mittelalterlich staendestaatlich". Its of no importance what one is or what one has studied. Its only of importance how one argues, that is how good one's arguments are. Those of Trask and Seinbauer shouln't be mentioned - they are

1070:

I agree that it is a theory. It is not nearly formalized or testable enough to be a hypothesis. Also the first source seems to show that other linguists think of it as a theory more than a hypothesis. The second source you present I can not access. I do however think that the "substrate" element is

943:

theory to Uirali, Uitruski, etc even to Eskimo and Ainu. With Finno Ugrians one can link Finno and Ugri branches to Harappa (Indus Culture and its sub Kulli culture) with languages Tamili, Teluge, Kannada, and Malajalami, in addition to Brahui language which is still been spoked in Indus area by c

788:

and his critic is obscure. If we don't know anything on something, we have to stop thinking on something? That would be the death of any science! Conversely we have to start thinking, trying to make a theory! That is what Vennemann does. So the section of Steinbauers critics should be cancelled in

1226:

Florian, this is a pure defamation of V's theory. He has made up a theory if he finds at least 10 etymologies of words which are named in Kluge/Seebold as unknown. And there are, and there even are many more beyond V if you consider names of mountains, locations, rivers, germanic gods and giants,

932:

Baskin kieli (Euskara) is even today (2008) pronounced in daily use Paskin / Vaskin kieli by half of the Finns and Estonians. Please remember that things like this are noted on grass root level, not in the scholars isolated ivory towers. Vennemann seems to have been after all right when combining

928:

Here is the prove that Vasconic can be linked with Baskonic ie Basque. Basque(land) is in most Finno Ugrian languages Baskimaa (Euskal Herria). But when soft B did not appear in old Finno Ugrian languages it become as pronounced Paskiland. But old Finno Ugrian habit was to name the places of some

548:

This is interesting stuff. Maybe we could mention the Basque "ur" (water) and its similarity to the British river names Ure, Urie, Ayr, Aire, Wyre, Yare, Ore, Orwell, Irwell etc. Also the Basque "erreka" (stream, valley) and Arrochar, Errogie, Urquhart, Orchy, Irk, (Aber)erch, and Lochs Errochty,

1419:

Missing monks, missing bishops, missing sources are the ingrediences of a folk etymology in the bad sense. Mr. Akerb., you are b(i)ased too much in the Hofbraeuhaus. A few steps from there (200 m? difficult to measure from here in NZ!) there is a place name "im Tal", starting at the Marienplatz,

1187:

As for the European hydronomy, I wouldn't place any bets on it. If they are really so old at all, those names went through far too many languages and deformations to be recognisable as anything, even if we knew the source language (which we most certainly have no clue about). If you exclude the

539:

and its not Vennemanns theory. He has overtaken two existing theories (i) that one of a semitic/semitidic origin of the megalithic culture, together with an influence on the much later celtic languages in Britain and Ireland and (ii) of a *vasconic substrat in all over Europe (excluding Italy),

1662:

Your impression is baseless; Modern Basque does resemble reconstructed Proto-Basque some 2000 years ago (and also attested Aquitanian of the same age) but is still very different (especially the traditional dialects – the written language is rather artificially conservative, like many standard

1107:

That does seem an odd statement, as far as I remember, the hydronyms and a lot of old toponyms are opaque both from an IE and a Vasconic angle. Trask also sums up the hydro and toponymy of old Europe as most likely stemming from various unrecorded pre-IE languages. He also points out that the

596:(root). In my few travels through Europe (and also looking in maps) I have found many many places and even currently used words of other languages that are virtually identical to Basque: from Galicia to the Balearic islands, from Northern Italy to Britain, and even in Serbo-Croatian you have 1200:, which certainly looks like some sort of I-E, the residue is so generic in terms of phonology, phonotactics and supposed morphology that it could be anything. In fact, it barely looks like a language, even if we grant it may be a very simple one (Neanderthal?). It's a mere artifact. -- 1403:

And lastly, there were monks all over the place but eleven centuries is a long time for a small monastic settlement to come and go but with the placename sticking. There are plenty of places like that. Bring sources, until then, I won't waste any more time on this futile debate.

1720:. You just keep spewing your angry ramblings all over this talk page because of some animus you clearly have against me (evidently you can't accept that Vennemann's hypothesis has never received mainstream acceptance where it actually matters, and lash out against me). -- 784:

Sorry, Steinbauer critics of V is wrong, if it uses the Etruscians. These are not included in V's theories at all. So if they are related to some anatolian peoples, this does not touch V's superstrat-substrat theory. Please do not mess up these theories with wrong facts.

1273:

finds an expert's etymology "pure non-sense compared to" an alternative explanation is completely irrelevant for the scholarly debate and for Knowledge (XXG). My mention of Neanderthal was obviously satirical. Genetics doesn't have the first thing to do with hydronyms.

1647:"The same label ,outrageous' (I think even more so, but this POV) has to be attached to the theory that there has been a proto-indoeuropean unique language in this huge area, which introduced the ,old-European' hydronomy, like Krahe believed and Vennemann rejected." 834:. This article is about a hypotetical linguistic substrate of a large part of Europe, a term that is used now and then in its own merit. If anything, it should be merged with Pre-Indoeuropean and the like. We are talking linguistics here, not linguists (authors). 1742:

No Florian Blaschke, the cold case pre-history has 4 components, none of which is secondary or unimportant or irrelevant. Today genetics has gaps, but there is a huge amount of effort all around the world to close these gaps. So your mainstream is streaming

1698:"But there are three other components, which have to fill in the gaps: Anthropology to which today DNA-analysis has tremendous contributions (MIT, Stanford, Dresden), archeology and mythology. Again, Vennemann discusses all of that, Krahe & al. not." 483:

This theory is really good as far as I know. Sadly I know no German and can't browse the linked pages and add more material but I would be glad to help whoever can access that information to improve the article, for instance making maps or whatever.

1701:

DNA is irrelevant in this case. The whole genetic argument has huge gaps. Archaeology and mythology can only have supplementary roles, too. The primary argument must always be linguistic, because this hypothesis is mainly a linguistic hypothesis.

759:

I think I'll leave it there. A hint - when doing such work, *never* work off the modern forms. You must work off the oldest attested or reconstructed forms. Never look for random similarities, or you'll fall prey to the

1351:

the center. It would be like naming London after Hampstead Heath. Sadly, riding a bike does not make you a geohistorian. As for the rest of your rant, I'm not going to bother. Bring reliable sources, then we can talk.

1680:

First, the amount of Germanic vocabulary with no known Indo-European origin (which doesn't even mean non-Indo-European origin) is extremely controversial and has likely been massively overstated by Vennemann (see

1021:

I moved the article, as it is not about Vasconic languages, which are simply Basque and its relatives (Aquitanian), or even Basque itself when considered more than a single language. I intend to create a stub at

517:

No, the map wrongly doesn't show V's vasconic subtrat, but his semitidic superstat area. The vasconic area includes all of Germany and the countries around - actually from the pays basque to the Ural mountains.

1511:

Your ramblings above are all completely irrelevant and full of fallacies, unsound logic and invalid chains of arguments. Vennemann's method is bunk and the named critics have explained this in more detail.

1766:

if this theory has been rejected by linguists, is it pseudolinguistics? A former theory? Was it widespread? Is it now discredited? are there other linguistic hypotheses that it should be classed with?

1442:

Your fringe OR speculations are not appropriate for this talk page; Knowledge (XXG) is not a soapbox. In any case, you are engaging in a false dichotomy fallacy – even if the accepted monk etymology for

433: 1659:"After studying Basque for some years, I have the impression, that it is more conservative than the indoeuropean language group, which looks like the most rapidly changing language group of the world." 631:

Archaeology and even genetics seem to support the idea of Basque Country/People being the last odd survival of a once Vasconic Europe. That's why I am so interested that asked for an expansion. --

722:

Still, be careful when looking for assonances. Don't underestimate time-depth and language change. Looking at maps is good, but looking at the earliest attested forms of toponyms is much better.

588:

Just for enriching the discussion and with no proposing intent, some of thos terms do seem very Basque (Arrochar, Errogie, Uruqhart and Errochty particularly), though they may derive from

764:, you must work to establish general rules for how word*s* get borrowed and also *why*. And above all, you must never include a recognisible loanword or neologism into your theories... 465: 852:

I agree - don't merge. The only justification for merging would be if Vennemann is alone in the entire academic world in supporting this thesis. - Paul S 17:33 2 April 2008

585:. And maybe that could be mentioned, more as historical reference than anything else, as his work may be pionering but is somewhat osolete from the scientifical viewpoint. 1451:

Moreover, your insistence that the presence of Celtic or other Indo-European placenames in Aquitania is absolutely impossible is just ridiculously question-begging. --

238: 549:

Ericht and Arkaig. In addition, the Basque "bide" (road, way) might just be related to Pitlochry etc, although there are other theories for "Pit-". ML 19.11.06.

1795: 127: 1677:"A third point would be to deal with those Germanic words, which have no indoeuropean etymology a la Pokorny, Kluge/Seebold and that new Danish contribution." 133: 1810: 1556: 228: 1448:

mean that there is any connection to Basque. Even if the mainstream were wrong, Vennemann wouldn't automatically be right, despite his love of this fallacy.

1840: 427: 343: 1615:

No, if the map is wrong it is wrong and shouldn't be there. It's absurd to suggest that in the absence of correct data, flawed data is a good thing...

1489:

meaning, then the last axiom should be an ,isolation'-axiom: There is a neighborhood of place name, in which the name giving fact is given only once.

1815: 1805: 1689:). Second, even those lexemes where substrate origin is likely do not resemble Basque in any way (the only exception I can think of is Proto-Germanic 966:

No offence, but that was the worst "proof" ever presented here on Knowledge (XXG). Please note that Knowledge (XXG) is all about verifiable findings,

204: 1389:

You can read, right? There are hills and mountains all over the place of course but there is a limit to the distance people will go to name a place.

878:

I'd also like this to be separate from Vennemann. I believe it will be expanded upon separately as new information emerges from different sources.--

1825: 1800: 333: 103: 1686: 561: 1790: 1845: 1830: 391: 1835: 1820: 1768: 1496: 1427: 761: 403: 309: 195: 156: 1744: 1563:, and the "Old European" river names (with the "roots" they are supposedly based on) he talks about can be found throughout Europe (see 1374: 1234: 951: 796: 701: 525: 501: 1598: 1474: 1318: 944:

750.000 people. All these Dravinian languages are pre indo european languages. There is a direct link from Malayalam to Finno Ugrian.

1668:"A second point would be to count the number of semantically founded etymologies of place names, singling out all folk etymologies." 94: 58: 1537: 879: 1650:

No, Krahe never claimed that there was a single, unitary Proto-Indo-European language covering all this area, only Indo-European

1559:

is clearly and obviously wrong, given that one of Vennemann's hobbies is finding "Vasconic" etymologies for placenames all over

635: 402:, history and culture on Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join 386: 366: 300: 261: 33: 620:) that doesn't seem IE at all (though of course there are always those that say it might be a deformation from nonexistent 1682: 1005: 672: 1533: 867: 970:

about different users home-spun theories. Original research of this kind is explicitly forbidden from articles, as per

461: 558: 1725: 1707: 1576: 1517: 1456: 1279: 1205: 1055:

please tell me if you have any sources (not from Knowledge (XXG)) that prove that the Vasconic idea is a Hypothesis

1076: 1772: 1500: 1431: 668: 39: 21: 1748: 1378: 1238: 955: 800: 705: 529: 505: 1322: 1594: 1492: 1470: 1423: 1370: 1314: 1230: 993: 947: 883: 855: 792: 697: 521: 1602: 1564: 1478: 837:

Also similar proposals existed before Venneman. I have already mentioned Krutwig before, for instance. --

1721: 1703: 1572: 1513: 1452: 1275: 1201: 1133: 1031: 897: 821: 554: 308:

on Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join

203:

on Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join

102:

on Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join

936:

Iber language has also some common place names with Saame languages. Just mentioning Montsa / Montse.

727: 454: 1620: 1409: 1356: 1113: 911: 773: 1023: 187: 1270: 1052: 1693:'silver', but even in this case Basque is not thought to be the ultimate origin of the lexeme). 1488:

Right, if we try to mathematically define an etym(place name) as a map etym : place name -: -->

1151: 1060: 1001: 571: 1129: 1027: 940: 893: 863: 842: 817: 578: 1776: 1752: 1729: 1711: 1624: 1606: 1580: 1541: 1521: 1504: 1482: 1460: 1435: 1413: 1382: 1360: 1326: 1283: 1242: 1209: 1155: 1137: 1117: 1087: 1064: 1035: 1009: 983: 959: 915: 901: 887: 871: 846: 825: 804: 777: 731: 709: 676: 533: 509: 488: 1532:

I find it strange to not find the word "R1b" in the article, nor even on the talk page...

723: 612:

maybe too). Apparent Vasconic links seem to appear everywhere, even in the Latin particle

399: 86: 971: 1616: 1405: 1352: 1109: 979: 907: 769: 1784: 1049: 989:

Don't merge that would be like merging Indo-European languages with Thomas Stephens

395: 292: 1147: 1056: 997: 553:

I wouldn't include anything that is not based directly on Vennemann's writings. --

1177: 1046: 1080: 906:

How long before we can take the merge tag off? It's been sitting there a while.

859: 838: 632: 485: 200: 1396:

or rather, if he does, he's changed his tune because he used to derive it from

181: 80: 70: 52: 1568: 282: 177: 76: 768:(< Lat. pacem) in the crazy Basque-Iberian proposals is just one of them. 975: 276: 255: 99: 574:. Finding a site or book on Venneman's theory in English would be nice. 171: 150: 305: 1672:

already disproves that idea, an idea typical of crank etymologists.

1095:

However, most linguists consider the hydronyms to be Indo-European.

1075:

theory about a subststrate and I think the page should be moved to

378: 360: 1269:

better source on the topic than Vennemann, let alone you. Whether

648:. That's entirely regular (and makes sense once you remember that 1172:

If it is not a hypothesis, and not a theory, what do we call it?

1108:

hydronomy of the Basque County itself doesn't even look Basque.

1093:

Fellow wikipedians you have 3 days to prove that the statement

449: 15: 1053:

http://www.lrz-muenchen.de/~mailhammer/htdocs/pdf/PrEu_rd.PDF

577:

Nevertheless, an older proponent of a simmilar theory was

1591:

Also: That map is wrong, but a map has to be included.

390:, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the 1716:

Also, none of this has to do with the subject at hand,

496:

How is a nonsense, unsupported and unscientific theory

939:

When following this path Basque can be linked through

1642:? Your statement call only be described as confused. 1071:

pretty necessary to make it explicit that this is a

304:, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of 199:, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of 98:, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of 1050:http://www.linguistlist.org/issues/15/15-1878.html 432:This article has not yet received a rating on the 132:This article has not yet received a rating on the 1654:. They have done so since antiquity and still do. 1400:despite agreement there was no m in proto-Basque. 608:is up, upwards in Basque - and clearly native) ( 1635:"Sorry, but again you are at odds with logic." 1047:http://www.cls.psu.edu/pubs/pubs/LINGUA1158.pdf 1079:. (or merged into Theo venneman's own article) 652:was pronounced up to the 2nd century or so). 1571:has already explained this in more detail. -- 8: 1557:File:Proposed area of Vasconic languages.png 19: 1592: 1490: 1468: 1421: 1368: 1312: 790: 695: 355: 250: 145: 47: 1687:slide 8 in this slideshow by Guus Kroonen 1196:, which look like Celtic via Latin, and 738:"stony pett (a pictish land measure))... 1045:The Vasconic Idea is a theory sources: 816:are often placed in a Vasconic family. 357: 252: 213:Knowledge (XXG):WikiProject Linguistics 147: 49: 1101:or else I will if possible delete it. 892:Yes, keep it separate from Vennemann. 667:in Basque, that's really interesting… 112:Knowledge (XXG):WikiProject Languages 7: 1796:Unknown-importance language articles 1392:Vennemann does not trace it back to 384:This article is within the scope of 298:This article is within the scope of 193:This article is within the scope of 92:This article is within the scope of 1811:Low-importance Linguistics articles 1146:prose of the article, per WP:CRIT. 38:It is of interest to the following 1841:Unknown-importance Basque articles 1552: 412:Knowledge (XXG):WikiProject Basque 318:Knowledge (XXG):WikiProject France 14: 1271:a patently poorly informed layman 1816:WikiProject Linguistics articles 1806:Start-Class Linguistics articles 570:Me neither. Any edits should be 464:on 1 August 2008. The result of 453: 377: 359: 285: 275: 254: 216:Template:WikiProject Linguistics 180: 170: 149: 79: 69: 51: 20: 460:This article was nominated for 338:This article has been rated as 233:This article has been rated as 1826:Low-importance France articles 1801:WikiProject Languages articles 115:Template:WikiProject Languages 1: 1791:Start-Class language articles 1683:Germanic substrate hypothesis 1414:01:08, 17 December 2014 (UTC) 1383:00:48, 17 December 2014 (UTC) 1361:19:25, 13 December 2014 (UTC) 1243:04:57, 11 February 2014 (UTC) 1210:21:45, 19 February 2011 (UTC) 1036:23:04, 27 February 2009 (UTC) 847:08:33, 29 November 2007 (UTC) 826:23:00, 28 November 2007 (UTC) 732:23:41, 14 February 2009 (UTC) 636:04:52, 20 November 2006 (UTC) 562:17:21, 19 November 2006 (UTC) 534:03:46, 11 February 2014 (UTC) 489:00:06, 17 November 2006 (UTC) 406:and see a list of open tasks. 312:and see a list of open tasks. 207:and see a list of open tasks. 106:and see a list of open tasks. 1846:All WikiProject Basque pages 1831:All WikiProject France pages 1625:02:00, 12 January 2016 (UTC) 1607:04:03, 7 December 2015 (UTC) 1542:12:56, 10 January 2014 (UTC) 1483:03:15, 7 December 2015 (UTC) 1327:08:37, 4 December 2014 (UTC) 1836:Start-Class Basque articles 1821:Start-Class France articles 1551:As pointed out above under 1436:07:14, 7 January 2015 (UTC) 1284:20:06, 4 October 2014 (UTC) 924:Link the Vasconic to Basque 805:08:38, 13 August 2016 (UTC) 677:19:43, 5 October 2008 (UTC) 415:Template:WikiProject Basque 321:Template:WikiProject France 1862: 710:14:27, 21 April 2016 (UTC) 344:project's importance scale 239:project's importance scale 134:project's importance scale 1753:00:28, 27 July 2020 (UTC) 1730:22:57, 11 June 2019 (UTC) 1712:22:38, 11 June 2019 (UTC) 1534:twitter.com/YOMALSIDOROFF 1522:22:42, 11 June 2019 (UTC) 1505:22:44, 5 March 2016 (UTC) 1156:18:55, 23 July 2009 (UTC) 1148:The Count of Monte Cristo 1138:20:04, 19 July 2009 (UTC) 1118:17:46, 19 July 2009 (UTC) 1088:23:22, 10 July 2009 (UTC) 1077:Vasconic substrate theory 1065:23:25, 10 July 2009 (UTC) 1057:The Count of Monte Cristo 1026:that isn't so one-sided. 1010:00:50, 11 July 2009 (UTC) 984:19:01, 31 July 2008 (UTC) 960:05:01, 31 July 2008 (UTC) 916:12:40, 30 June 2009 (UTC) 902:18:16, 14 June 2008 (UTC) 888:07:50, 10 June 2008 (UTC) 872:16:33, 2 April 2008 (UTC) 778:13:30, 1 March 2009 (UTC) 431: 372: 337: 270: 232: 165: 131: 64: 46: 1777:18:41, 5 July 2021 (UTC) 1581:11:57, 4 June 2015 (UTC) 1461:11:26, 4 June 2015 (UTC) 624:, which would come from 510:10:47, 8 July 2014 (UTC) 196:WikiProject Linguistics 1565:Old European hydronymy 28:This article is rated 95:WikiProject Languages 32:on Knowledge (XXG)'s 1638:Again? At odds with 656:is also attested as 219:Linguistics articles 1024:Vasconic languages 762:Bongo Bongo Effect 592:(river basin) and 387:WikiProject Basque 301:WikiProject France 188:Linguistics portal 34:content assessment 1609: 1597:comment added by 1507: 1495:comment added by 1485: 1473:comment added by 1438: 1426:comment added by 1385: 1373:comment added by 1329: 1317:comment added by 1233:comment added by 1013: 996:comment added by 962: 950:comment added by 874: 858:comment added by 807: 795:comment added by 712: 700:comment added by 524:comment added by 476: 475: 448: 447: 444: 443: 440: 439: 354: 353: 350: 349: 249: 248: 245: 244: 144: 143: 140: 139: 118:language articles 1853: 1722:Florian Blaschke 1704:Florian Blaschke 1573:Florian Blaschke 1514:Florian Blaschke 1453:Florian Blaschke 1276:Florian Blaschke 1245: 1202:Florian Blaschke 1084: 1012: 990: 945: 853: 669:David Marjanović 579:Federico Krutwig 544:Some suggestions 536: 457: 450: 434:importance scale 420: 419: 416: 413: 410: 381: 374: 373: 363: 356: 326: 325: 322: 319: 316: 295: 290: 289: 288: 279: 272: 271: 266: 258: 251: 221: 220: 217: 214: 211: 190: 185: 184: 174: 167: 166: 161: 153: 146: 120: 119: 116: 113: 110: 89: 84: 83: 73: 66: 65: 55: 48: 31: 25: 24: 16: 1861: 1860: 1856: 1855: 1854: 1852: 1851: 1850: 1781: 1780: 1764: 1685:and especially 1549: 1530: 1311:Virchow-like. 1228: 1082: 1043: 1019: 991: 926: 813: 600:(mountain) and 546: 519: 481: 418:Basque articles 417: 414: 411: 408: 407: 400:Basque language 324:France articles 323: 320: 317: 314: 313: 291: 286: 284: 264: 218: 215: 212: 209: 208: 186: 179: 159: 117: 114: 111: 108: 107: 87:Language portal 85: 78: 29: 12: 11: 5: 1859: 1857: 1849: 1848: 1843: 1838: 1833: 1828: 1823: 1818: 1813: 1808: 1803: 1798: 1793: 1783: 1782: 1769:142.163.195.90 1763: 1762:what category? 1760: 1759: 1758: 1757: 1756: 1737: 1736: 1735: 1734: 1733: 1732: 1714: 1696: 1695: 1694: 1675: 1674: 1673: 1666: 1665: 1664: 1657: 1656: 1655: 1645: 1644: 1643: 1630: 1629: 1628: 1627: 1589: 1588: 1553:#Expand please 1548: 1545: 1529: 1526: 1525: 1524: 1497:171.67.128.191 1464: 1463: 1449: 1428:203.176.188.51 1417: 1416: 1401: 1390: 1364: 1363: 1343: 1342: 1341: 1340: 1339: 1338: 1337: 1336: 1335: 1334: 1333: 1332: 1331: 1330: 1295: 1294: 1293: 1292: 1291: 1290: 1289: 1288: 1287: 1286: 1253: 1252: 1251: 1250: 1249: 1248: 1247: 1246: 1217: 1216: 1215: 1214: 1213: 1212: 1185: 1174: 1163: 1160: 1143: 1142: 1141: 1140: 1123: 1122: 1121: 1120: 1091: 1090: 1042: 1039: 1018: 1015: 987: 986: 925: 922: 921: 920: 919: 918: 890: 850: 849: 835: 812: 809: 782: 781: 757: 739: 720: 719: 718: 717: 716: 715: 714: 713: 684: 683: 682: 681: 680: 679: 661: 660:, for example. 629: 586: 581:, in his work 575: 565: 564: 555:j. 'mach' wust 545: 542: 515: 514: 513: 512: 480: 477: 474: 473: 466:the discussion 458: 446: 445: 442: 441: 438: 437: 430: 424: 423: 421: 404:the discussion 392:Basque Country 382: 370: 369: 364: 352: 351: 348: 347: 340:Low-importance 336: 330: 329: 327: 310:the discussion 297: 296: 280: 268: 267: 265:Low‑importance 259: 247: 246: 243: 242: 235:Low-importance 231: 225: 224: 222: 205:the discussion 192: 191: 175: 163: 162: 160:Low‑importance 154: 142: 141: 138: 137: 130: 124: 123: 121: 104:the discussion 91: 90: 74: 62: 61: 56: 44: 43: 37: 26: 13: 10: 9: 6: 4: 3: 2: 1858: 1847: 1844: 1842: 1839: 1837: 1834: 1832: 1829: 1827: 1824: 1822: 1819: 1817: 1814: 1812: 1809: 1807: 1804: 1802: 1799: 1797: 1794: 1792: 1789: 1788: 1786: 1779: 1778: 1774: 1770: 1761: 1754: 1750: 1746: 1745:87.133.37.127 1741: 1740: 1739: 1738: 1731: 1727: 1723: 1719: 1715: 1713: 1709: 1705: 1700: 1699: 1697: 1692: 1688: 1684: 1679: 1678: 1676: 1670: 1669: 1667: 1661: 1660: 1658: 1653: 1649: 1648: 1646: 1641: 1637: 1636: 1634: 1633: 1632: 1631: 1626: 1622: 1618: 1614: 1613: 1612: 1611: 1610: 1608: 1604: 1600: 1596: 1585: 1584: 1583: 1582: 1578: 1574: 1570: 1566: 1562: 1558: 1554: 1546: 1544: 1543: 1539: 1535: 1527: 1523: 1519: 1515: 1510: 1509: 1508: 1506: 1502: 1498: 1494: 1486: 1484: 1480: 1476: 1472: 1462: 1458: 1454: 1450: 1446: 1441: 1440: 1439: 1437: 1433: 1429: 1425: 1415: 1411: 1407: 1402: 1399: 1395: 1391: 1388: 1387: 1386: 1384: 1380: 1376: 1375:130.216.13.52 1372: 1362: 1358: 1354: 1349: 1348: 1347: 1328: 1324: 1320: 1316: 1309: 1308: 1307: 1306: 1305: 1304: 1303: 1302: 1301: 1300: 1299: 1298: 1297: 1296: 1285: 1281: 1277: 1272: 1268: 1263: 1262: 1261: 1260: 1259: 1258: 1257: 1256: 1255: 1254: 1244: 1240: 1236: 1235:130.216.13.55 1232: 1225: 1224: 1223: 1222: 1221: 1220: 1219: 1218: 1211: 1207: 1203: 1199: 1195: 1192:and the root 1191: 1186: 1183: 1182:Silbenschnitt 1179: 1175: 1173: 1170: 1169: 1168: 1167: 1166: 1165: 1164: 1161: 1158: 1157: 1153: 1149: 1139: 1135: 1131: 1127: 1126: 1125: 1124: 1119: 1115: 1111: 1106: 1105: 1104: 1103: 1102: 1100: 1096: 1089: 1086: 1078: 1074: 1069: 1068: 1067: 1066: 1062: 1058: 1054: 1051: 1048: 1040: 1038: 1037: 1033: 1029: 1025: 1016: 1014: 1011: 1007: 1003: 999: 995: 985: 981: 977: 973: 969: 965: 964: 963: 961: 957: 953: 952:88.112.81.220 949: 942: 937: 934: 930: 923: 917: 913: 909: 905: 904: 903: 899: 895: 891: 889: 885: 881: 877: 876: 875: 873: 869: 865: 861: 857: 848: 844: 840: 836: 833: 830: 829: 828: 827: 823: 819: 810: 808: 806: 802: 798: 797:87.144.120.50 794: 786: 779: 775: 771: 767: 763: 758: 755: 751: 747: 743: 740: 736: 735: 734: 733: 729: 725: 711: 707: 703: 702:82.221.42.114 699: 692: 691: 690: 689: 688: 687: 686: 685: 678: 674: 670: 666: 662: 659: 655: 651: 647: 643: 639: 638: 637: 634: 630: 627: 623: 619: 615: 611: 607: 603: 599: 595: 591: 587: 584: 580: 576: 573: 569: 568: 567: 566: 563: 560: 556: 552: 551: 550: 543: 541: 537: 535: 531: 527: 526:130.216.13.55 523: 511: 507: 503: 502:86.162.150.59 499: 495: 494: 493: 492: 491: 490: 487: 479:Expand please 478: 471: 467: 463: 459: 456: 452: 451: 435: 429: 426: 425: 422: 405: 401: 397: 396:Basque people 393: 389: 388: 383: 380: 376: 375: 371: 368: 365: 362: 358: 345: 341: 335: 332: 331: 328: 311: 307: 303: 302: 294: 293:France portal 283: 281: 278: 274: 273: 269: 263: 260: 257: 253: 240: 236: 230: 227: 226: 223: 206: 202: 198: 197: 189: 183: 178: 176: 173: 169: 168: 164: 158: 155: 152: 148: 135: 129: 126: 125: 122: 105: 101: 97: 96: 88: 82: 77: 75: 72: 68: 67: 63: 60: 57: 54: 50: 45: 41: 35: 27: 23: 18: 17: 1765: 1717: 1690: 1651: 1639: 1599:119.76.65.52 1593:— Preceding 1590: 1560: 1550: 1531: 1491:— Preceding 1487: 1475:119.76.65.52 1469:— Preceding 1465: 1444: 1422:— Preceding 1418: 1397: 1393: 1369:— Preceding 1365: 1344: 1319:171.100.79.6 1313:— Preceding 1266: 1229:— Preceding 1197: 1193: 1189: 1181: 1171: 1162: 1159: 1144: 1098: 1094: 1092: 1072: 1044: 1020: 988: 967: 938: 935: 931: 927: 851: 831: 814: 791:— Preceding 787: 783: 765: 753: 749: 745: 741: 721: 696:— Preceding 664: 657: 653: 649: 645: 641: 625: 621: 617: 613: 609: 605: 601: 597: 593: 589: 582: 547: 538: 520:— Preceding 516: 497: 482: 469: 385: 339: 299: 234: 194: 93: 40:WikiProjects 1547:Dubious map 1178:Speculation 992:—Preceding 946:—Preceding 894:Summer Song 880:92.4.58.173 854:—Preceding 832:Don't merge 752:from older 498:really good 210:Linguistics 201:linguistics 157:Linguistics 30:Start-class 1785:Categories 1743:elsewhere! 1555:, the map 1073:linguistic 724:Trigaranus 572:verifiable 1691:*silubra- 1652:languages 1617:Akerbeltz 1569:Don Ringe 1406:Akerbeltz 1353:Akerbeltz 1110:Akerbeltz 908:Akerbeltz 770:Akerbeltz 640:No, no – 618:bilingual 616:(like in 109:Languages 100:languages 59:Languages 1595:unsigned 1493:unsigned 1471:unsigned 1424:unsigned 1371:unsigned 1315:unsigned 1231:unsigned 1081:·Maunus· 1006:contribs 994:unsigned 948:unsigned 868:contribs 856:unsigned 793:unsigned 698:unsigned 644:is from 583:Garaldea 522:unsigned 462:deletion 1718:the map 1561:Germany 1445:München 1265:He's a 1188:suffix 1097:is not 998:SOPHIAN 748:+ -ra; 342:on the 237:on the 1190:-antia 1176:Easy: 1041:Theory 941:Uirala 860:Paul S 839:Sugaar 658:dvonus 633:Sugaar 604:(up) ( 486:Sugaar 409:Basque 367:Basque 315:France 306:France 262:France 36:scale. 1640:logic 1398:muino 1198:drav- 1194:kamb- 1130:kwami 1028:kwami 1017:moved 972:WP:OR 818:kwami 811:merge 654:Bonus 1773:talk 1749:talk 1726:talk 1708:talk 1621:talk 1603:talk 1577:talk 1538:talk 1518:talk 1501:talk 1479:talk 1457:talk 1432:talk 1410:talk 1394:bide 1379:talk 1357:talk 1323:talk 1280:talk 1239:talk 1206:talk 1152:talk 1134:talk 1114:talk 1061:talk 1032:talk 1002:talk 980:talk 976:JdeJ 956:talk 912:talk 898:talk 884:talk 864:talk 843:talk 822:talk 801:talk 774:talk 766:bake 754:biga 742:gora 728:talk 706:talk 673:talk 665:gora 663:But 646:dvi- 626:duos 610:reka 606:gora 602:gore 598:gora 594:erro 590:arro 530:talk 506:talk 470:keep 468:was 1528:R1b 1267:far 968:not 756:... 746:goi 744:is 642:bi- 622:di- 614:bi- 500:?! 428:??? 334:Low 229:Low 128:??? 1787:: 1775:) 1767:-- 1751:) 1728:) 1710:) 1702:-- 1623:) 1605:) 1579:) 1540:) 1520:) 1512:-- 1503:) 1481:) 1459:) 1434:) 1412:) 1381:) 1359:) 1325:) 1282:) 1274:-- 1241:) 1208:) 1154:) 1136:) 1116:) 1099:OR 1063:) 1034:) 1008:) 1004:• 982:) 974:. 958:) 914:) 900:) 886:) 870:) 866:• 845:) 824:) 803:) 776:) 750:bi 730:) 708:) 675:) 628:). 557:☞ 532:) 508:) 484:-- 398:, 394:, 1771:( 1755:. 1747:( 1724:( 1706:( 1619:( 1601:( 1575:( 1536:( 1516:( 1499:( 1477:( 1455:( 1430:( 1408:( 1377:( 1355:( 1321:( 1278:( 1237:( 1204:( 1184:. 1150:( 1132:( 1112:( 1085:· 1083:ƛ 1059:( 1030:( 1000:( 978:( 954:( 910:( 896:( 882:( 862:( 841:( 820:( 799:( 780:\ 772:( 726:( 704:( 671:( 650:v 559:☏ 528:( 504:( 472:. 436:. 346:. 241:. 136:. 42::

Text is available under the Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike License. Additional terms may apply.

Index