1758:, reliable sources are published independent sources that have a reputation of fact-checking and accuracy, and that articles should be based on them. Then I want to ask: if a reliable source said 1+1=3 and an unreliable source said 1+1=2, which one would you trust ? (Of course, this is exaggerated to make the point clearer.) The one that you think makes sense, of course. So please look at the content first and see if it makes sense (By logic). If you don't know if it makes sense or not because it is not well proven, or it doesn't make sense at all, then you can bother about if it is reliable or not. Another example: A painting "Xyz" was painted in the 1700s and everybody knows that. In 2023, some reliable person A says that a painting he found is the original "Xyz" and not a modified/copied one, then some random person B says that it is a fake one, because there is a car in the painting A had and cars weren't there in the 1700s. Who would you trust?
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display in my camps, because I hate them so much that I must display their culture. It makes so much sense. Also, in the same image, the supposedly "internment camp for
Uyghurs" "proof" photos shown have guards that look exactly like the same race and skin color than the prisoners. Hmm. Totally not an image of a normal prison. Other images show photographies of people in the "camps". Because the background of each photography is alike, I could say that they were took in the same place. In one of them, in the background, I could see a door. The typical house door: it was grey, with a little hole with lens in the middle of the door, to see who was outside when someone was knocking. Hmm. Photos totally took in "camps". Are these things normal to see in "internment camps"? Totally! It is definitly what we find in internment camps! BBC is so right about this subject! It is the best source ever!
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were detained. And those satellite images are also very vague. You show a satellite image of a building and automatically call it a camp? Some of those satellite images labeled a children's kindergarten and a apartment complex as a concentration camp. Why do they talk about boarding schools as if they only exist in
Xinjiang? Do they not know millions of migrant workers children in East China also have to go to boarding schools because they are left unattended at whome when there patents go to work in the city? And do they only think that the vocational schools only exist in Xinjiang too? Chinese from every part of the country have to go to these schools if they can not pass the Gaokao exam or they can not attend higher education. And those vocational schools also have gates and dormitories and they also have to stay there for months so they can learn skills and work in skilled jobs.
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mumbles something in maybe his language. You know what? Turns out, as I played the video in slow motion and read what was on the paper, it said ''citizen identity card'' in simplified chinese! I see nothing about 15 years of prison, and how would a man captured in a "concentration camp" still have an identity card? If I was Hitler and I captured someone, I would be smart enough to decide to destroy any evidence that the "someone" existed! Oh I can't believe it, BBC makes so much sense.
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That such a reaction was elicited might be relevant to mention (it is mentioned in the
Knowledge page for the database itself) if the database is described in detail, but it seems strange - in the case where only two sentences are devoted to it - to use the entire second sentence to cast doubt on the
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says that some sources may provide stronger or weaker support for a certain statement, and it is the editors who need to judge if a source, reliable or not, is usable or inappropriate to use to support a statement. Maybe they say 1+1=3 for only this statement. For the reliable source that said 1+1=3:
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The video on the page shows a BBC man showing to an old man what happened to his son. The old man then gives a paper to the BBC man, then the BBC man points at the paper and says something like ''...the database shows that your son is condemned with 15 years of prison...'' The old man then cries and
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Is there a reason why the only other relevant info about the database is the follow-up sentence that brings up the "incident" with Andy Lau, which was basically a visual typo that the database corrected immediately and explained in detail (but which was blown out of proportion by pro-China accounts
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In the section about camp detainees, change "Russian-American Gene Bunin created the
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A composite image shows 2884 photographs of detainees. I see, when zooming in the minuscule 2884 pictures, that some wear fashion. I see that there are around 20 images of the same person, wearing different clothes and in different poses. I see that those clothes are reused in 20 images of another
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There has been given little evidence to these made up places. The only evidence comes from adrian zenz who only asked 8 people if 1 million people were detaines in these made up places. How do you get 1 million from only 8 people. The
Chinese government white paper also never said 1 million people
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The images. Some show people in the "camp", and in the background, I saw some arabic-like words on the walls. I'm not sure because I'm no expert in arabic, but the characters looked like arabic. Hmm. If I was Hitler, in 1942 or whatever, I would definitly put hebrew and Jewish religion content on
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Well I read all that you wrote and found it (from my pov) to completely misrepresent the contents of the ref on all three of your alleged points. Please specify one duplicate pair of images, or one case where the subject is smiling. Clearly you interpret the video in a way very different from my
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The following table presents the data we have compiled based on interviews with eight ethnic
Uyghurs. Their families reside in eight different villages in counties in the Kashgar Prefecture. According to the interviewees, each village has a population of between roughly 1,500 and 3,000, and the
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If you still think the BBC article makes sense, I can write more arguments if you want. The things I mentioned up there are my common sense and my logic. I may have mental problems that distort my understanding of what is logical, but it is unlikely. I hope you understand my "sense of what is
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Every single piece of evidence regarding the alleged genocides and concentration camps come from, as far as I can tell, the Adrian Zenz study. Do you not think strange that what I just posted, which uses logic, common sense and empirical evidence, is not considered reliable, but a study by a
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database's validity without addressing all of the other credible work and content in the database, which dwarfs this. Again, there seems to be little concern about this "incident" outside pro-China social media and state media, so this addition/edit doesn't feel very neutral in nature.
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understanding of it. And similarly your observations on the incidental details do not match my reading of the article as a whole and all of its contextual background information... There are 454 other references that we could debate, but I'm not going to.
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Well, it is pretty easy to find and prove that a reliable source said 1+1=3, and we don't need to say that it has done that a lot of times in recent years. Why would we if we only talk about one thing? Also, I don't need to dispute it's reliability:
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Given that the mentioned training scheme probably isn't literally all detainees, I think this sentence should either be deleted or rephrased and placed in the "Responses from China" section since it's based on a
Chinese government report.
1707:, and any web forum like reddit is not considered reliable. /r/sino, especially, is no where close to being reliable. At this rate you may as well have linked /r/genzedong for how inaccurate/biased the information from there is. —
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And those people are smiling, except those who are in big images, where we can see them very well. Hmm. This is very natural and makes a lot of sense. This definitly happens in "internment camps". I should definitely trust the
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2179:. Of course mainland Chinese state media also reports on it but considerable the amount of non-PRC sources on this incident it would not warrant deletion, only at worst being moved to the "Responses from China" section.
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and Human Rights Watch." to "Russian-American Gene Bunin created the
Xinjiang Victims Database to collect public testimonies on people detained in the camps." with citations to those entities at the end of the sentence.
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Beijing for the first time gave confirmation of the number of Uighur and other Turkic
Muslims detained in Xinjiang, revealing that 1.3 million people had gone through what it termed “vocational training
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if you cannot back them up with reliable sources. Hypothetical musings are not the stuff of which an encyclopedia is made. Comments along such lines are just like rain on the dashboard for the project.
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I find it fairly upsetting that both this, and the "Uyghur genocide" pages read as if both things are facts beyond any reasonable doubt - when you apply some scrutiny, that is clearly not the case
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and dispute its reliability. Then, depending on the weight of the evidence, its reliability would be reassessed. Your personal opinions (including your own sense of what is logical) are simply
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There is no need to appeal to authority and mention who has ever referenced the database. In other words, it is more encyclopedic to reference them instead of saying they reference it.
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I actually found one by just randomly scrolling trough the reference section: BBC News, source 147. And here is my ''logical reasoning'' (It is very simple, even a bit hilarious).
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logical" and that you consider my reflections about not needing reliable sources for it. I agree with you that
Knowledge isn't made up of hypothetical musings, but it seems like
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provides further clarification, stating that "1.3 million people had been through Xinjiang's 'vocational training' scheme annually for six years." Digging a bit further,
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Drone footages exist of the camps and several other evidence directly on youtube. Using r/sino as a source you might as well use chinese state media as a source.
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If you're trying to promote reddit (especially /r/sino) as reliable, while accusing Zenz as being "far-right", then there's not much more to be done here. —
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Content is properly sourced, content and references contain meaningful information regarding the subject, article will not be improved by proposed change.
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says. Pure logical reasoning. And no, I don't think he's trying to promote reddit as reliable. He's trying to say that pure logical reasoning is reliable.
352:. Feel free to try to improve the article, but don't take it personally if your changes are reversed; instead, come here to the talk page to discuss them.
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says, no source is completely reliable, as well as for vice versa. BBC may be reliable on weather news, but maybe not on economy news (Example).
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number of individuals taken into re-education detention camps from each village ranged from approximately 200 to 500 between mid-2017 to mid-2018.
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The IP address editor making unfounded claims and the AAA editor that appears to be making nearly all China focused edits, including removing
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https://www.premierchristianity.com/interviews/meet-the-christian-investigator-equipped-by-god-to-expose-chinas-uyghur-genocide/5442.article
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I seem to have accidentally stolen the citations on Donkey Hot-day's post above mine, I can't figure out how to give them back am so sorry
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far-right academic who has stated that "God has equipped me and used me to discover and expose these atrocities" is considered reliable? (
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which are mainstream outlets in Singapore and Malaysia. The "incident" as you say in quotes is also reported in notable HK outlets like
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In short, this focus seems extremely disproportionate (probably in the main Wiki on the database also, but there it's more warranted).
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If you want to make up your own truth, the place for that is Reddit, or one of many other blogs. This discussion has no place here.
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to some readers, to ensure a quality article and complete coverage of its subject matter. For more information, please refer to
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He's asking for evidence and you told him to provide evidence to support that there is no enough evidence? That's ridiculous
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If you could prove that a reliable source said 1+1=3, and had done so many times in recent years, then you could take it to
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This site goes into detail into the flimsy "evidence" the press is using to treat these "concentration camps" as facts:
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r/sino is one of the most biased threads ever, like china, posting anything deemed wrong there would get you banned.
682:-related articles on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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2207:"Deep undercover? Andy Lau and Chow Yun Fat listed as Xinjiang 'crackdown' cops by US activists, netizens go wild"
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Apply this to our case here. Please read the /r/sino content. It is pure logical reasoning that is presented, as
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Not Zenz but "Chinese Human Right Defenders" did use only 8 people to estimate a number of detainees:
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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Knowledge:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 October 1 § Vocational education and training centers
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https://www.reddit.com/r/Sino/comments/hzphui/every_uyghur_allegation_debunked_as_of_2020_july/
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Would you mind providing sources to back up your claims? This sounds like denialism to me.
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And by that do you mean you think the BBC article makes sense? Nothing is wrong with it?
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cites a white paper called "Employment and Labour Rights in Xinjiang" which can be found
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There's also this reddit thread, where the user has compiled a number of inconsistencies:
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None of the sources covering it are Chinese "state media" whether it is
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this rumor about internment camps is made up of hypothetical musings.
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Have you even read my text? Seems like you completely ignored it.
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Looks like BBC doesn't have much budget in making these fake news.
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does not mention the 1.3 million figure, including in the
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and media as an attempt to discredit the entire database)?
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Knowledge:WikiProject Correction and Detention Facilities
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is actually citing a report by the Chinese government:
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The Gray Zone is not considered a reliable source per
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to determine whether its use and function meets the
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2477:Redirects for discussion
2404:Camp detainees section:
2318:Camp detainees section:
2267:(in Traditional Chinese)
2264:Hong Kong Economic Times
2240:(in Chinese). 2023-01-12
2173:Hong Kong Economic Times
1985:08:44, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
1669:22:22, 12 May 2022 (UTC)
1515:Response from dissidents
872:WikiProject Central Asia
764:WikiProject Human rights
283:normal editorial process
2418:. The Guardian article
1411:International reactions
1205:Antireligious campaigns
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2548:C-Class vital articles
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1814:My POV at this point:)
1659:
1485:Reactions by countries
698:Islam-related articles
593:China-related articles
342:and content may be in
279:standards of behaviour
86:avoid personal attacks
1654:
1175:Strategic motivations
943:Central Asia articles
787:Human rights articles
426:level-5 vital article
356:neutral point of view
214:Auto-archiving period
111:Neutral point of view
1500:Responses from China
275:purpose of Knowledge
116:No original research
2499:redirect guidelines
2493:has been listed at
1425:Reactions at the UN
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1264:The New York Times
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2269:. Retrieved
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2242:. Retrieved
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2215:. Retrieved
2213:. 2023-01-17
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1117:Section name
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1017:2010s portal
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934:Central Asia
905:Turkmenistan
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30:This is the
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2361:Yadsalohcin
2330:Thank you!
2324:Should be:
2165:China Press
1918:Yadsalohcin
1861:Iskandar323
1790:Iskandar323
1661:AAAAA143222
881:Afghanistan
869:is part of
861:Asia portal
159:free images
42:not a forum
2527:Categories
2386:Charliehdb
2302:|answered=
2271:2024-03-16
2244:2024-03-16
2217:2024-03-16
2074:|answered=
2040:Jtbobwaysf
2009:References
1570:References
1146:Background
909:Uzbekistan
897:Tajikistan
889:Kyrgyzstan
885:Kazakhstan
2511:Dr vulpes
2427:centres”.
1841:Also, as
1812:person. (
1339:Locations
1281:ICIJ leak
429:is rated
394:consensus
362:citations
281:, or any
99:if needed
82:Be polite
32:talk page
2116:Not done
1641:X-Editor
1601:286,018
1544:See also
1418:115,223
921:Pakistan
913:Xinjiang
893:Mongolia
360:Include
197:Archives
67:get help
40:This is
38:article.
2211:AsiaOne
2177:WP:SCMP
2161:AsiaOne
2124:Timothy
1598:286,018
1508:17,139
1493:56,650
1463:15,132
1448:19,141
1433:18,377
1390:11,303
1375:24,618
1360:59,677
1317:19,496
1256:12,644
1241:23,887
1234:History
1198:15,467
1168:15,820
1153:39,112
1140:24,137
1125:Section
1066:on the
961:on the
805:on the
716:on the
611:on the
491:defunct
465:defunct
431:C-class
344:dispute
265:Uyghurs
218:90 days
165:WP refs
153:scholar
2516:(Talk)
2420:linked
2412:linked
1991:Rynoip
1943:Rynoip
1903:Tryute
1889:Tryute
1875:Tryute
1847:Tryute
1781:WP:RSN
1767:Tryute
1743:Czello
1711:Czello
1705:WP:RSP
1590:1,709
1577:1,521
1551:1,230
1538:1,816
1523:3,182
1505:17,139
1490:56,650
1478:3,960
1460:15,132
1430:18,377
1405:1,536
1387:11,303
1372:24,618
1357:22,220
1347:8,724
1332:5,140
1304:4,301
1289:3,647
1274:4,674
1238:11,243
1228:1,569
1213:2,797
1195:11,101
1183:7,748
1165:15,820
1137:24,137
1127:total
925:Russia
437:scale.
137:Google
2306:|ans=
2296:This
2078:|ans=
2068:This
1843:WP:RS
1805:WP:RS
1785:WP:OR
1756:WP:RS
1595:Total
1587:1,709
1574:1,521
1557:Notes
1548:1,230
1535:1,816
1520:1,366
1475:3,960
1402:1,536
1344:8,724
1329:5,140
1314:5,632
1301:4,301
1286:3,647
1271:4,674
1225:1,569
1210:2,797
1180:7,748
1133:(Top)
1122:count
1039:2010s
1030:2010s
986:2010s
901:Tibet
689:Islam
680:Islam
636:Islam
584:China
575:China
531:China
418:This
386:civil
180:JSTOR
141:books
95:Seek
2462:talk
2441:here
2437:SCMP
2390:talk
2382:Done
2365:talk
2351:talk
2336:talk
2185:talk
2171:and
2151:talk
2128:talk
2100:talk
2044:talk
1995:talk
1981:talk
1967:talk
1947:talk
1922:talk
1907:talk
1893:talk
1879:talk
1865:talk
1851:talk
1820:BBC.
1794:talk
1771:talk
1731:talk
1695:talk
1665:talk
1645:talk
1630:talk
1266:leak
1120:Byte
923:and
917:Iran
797:High
603:High
384:and
382:calm
173:FENS
147:news
84:and
2304:or
2163:or
2126:::
2122://
2076:or
1564:26
1415:734
1058:Low
953:Low
708:Low
187:TWL
2529::
2464:)
2431:A
2392:)
2367:)
2353:)
2338:)
2310:no
2261:.
2234:.
2209:.
2187:)
2153:)
2102:)
2082:no
2046:)
2038:.
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1983:)
1969:)
1949:)
1924:)
1909:)
1895:)
1881:)
1867:)
1853:)
1796:)
1773:)
1733:)
1725:)
1697:)
1667:)
1647:)
1632:)
1561:26
1445:49
1253:22
1150:77
919:,
911:,
907:,
903:,
899:,
895:,
891:,
887:,
883:,
267:,
216::
208:,
204:,
167:)
65:;
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2460:(
2388:(
2363:(
2349:(
2334:(
2274:.
2247:.
2220:.
2183:(
2149:(
2098:(
2042:(
2024:.
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1979:(
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1891:(
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1792:(
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1643:(
1628:(
1070:.
965:.
809:.
720:.
615:.
494:.
467:)
463:(
443::
358:.
346:.
321:.
307:.
210:3
206:2
202:1
199::
183:·
177:·
169:·
162:·
156:·
150:·
144:·
139:(
69:.
20:)
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