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875:, I'm not sure if this is the desired outcome for the reader: historical transcriptions have been haphazard, and a Western reader will have difficulties distinguishing the two. On the other hand, these are two different surnames, with different origins, and both pages are longish, so they would be better treated separately. I will notify
1262:
character. For the record it should be pointed out that, while in most romanized
Mandarin 徐 and 許 are both Xu or Hsu, however other systems the romanization is different. Korean they are Seo and Heo, in Hokkien they are Chee and Koh, even in the Gwoyeu Romatzyh system for Mandarin they are different and so on and so forth. --
389:– This article currently bundles together 2 totally unrelated family names, 許 Xǔ (Mandarin) Khó (Hokkien) Heoi (Cantonese) Kóu (Teochew) of Xuchang (No.20 in the 100 Names), and 徐 Xú (Mandarin) Chhî (Hokkien) Tshêu (Teochew) of Yanshi (No.150 in the 100 Names), personally I'd prefer a split, redirecting
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Because this two
Chinese language with same pinyin Xu with the most same pronunciation. This English Wikimedia could wrote international language inside because of "meaning". And please don't forget this Wikimedia page is about 2 Chinese surname and timely born to another places and with different of
1126:
I appreciate the problem, but do we allow the situation in the
Chinese Knowledge to define our strategy here in the English Knowledge? It seems like a case of the tail wagging the dog. In English, and for the thousands of English speaking people with this name, it is just a single surname, not two. I
509:
move. Since this is
English Knowledge, the focus should be explaining to English speakers how a Xu name might have originated. There are probably people with Xu ancestors in English speaking countries who have no idea which it was originally, and would just like to know what possible origins the name
1238:
I have no particular objection to treating the history of each of the two names on separate pages if you want to, since there's just about enough information to justify that, as long as we don't forget that in
English this is one surname, not two. Therefore the article here at Xu (surname) should at
947:
If a change is performed if at all, it would be to move this page to Xu (surname) (许/許) or 'Xu (surnames)'. This will further differentiate 許 from 宿. I also suggest using 'Xu' instead of 'Xǔ' as I don't think many people doing the search for this last name will actually type 'ǔ' in the search field.
1178:
This isn't about
Chinese Knowledge shaping our strategy. It also impacts all the other East Asian Wikipedias (around 8?). Also, these are two totally different family names but are both commonly used. Even with basic Chinese character knowledge it is clearly visible. I think doing what we have done
1018:
Well, if a final decision is made, then it should apply to all pages. It's a bit of a issue in both cases to have it separately or together. Would it be allowed to have the title named a
Chinese character? It's also quite messy with some of the other pages especially those on Li as to what title it
1261:
It might be a good idea to use both the character and tone marker for dab. On the contrary, I think it's more reasonable to ask a
Westerner to recognize the whether or not a single line is angled up or down, than to recognize the difference between a bunch of seemingly arbitrary lines that form a
939:
The character 許 (xǔ) in
Chinese has a lot of meanings, it is not simply a last name. To rename this page to simply 'Xǔ' would be akin to say... assigning the 'Smith' page to the 'Smith (surname)' result. Moreover, in parts of Henan and Shandong provinces, the character 宿 (normally pronounced sù),
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not about
Chinese overseas (who wouldn't be Xu anyway in most cases) and the idea that the article is for Xu overseas who won't know their surname so we should misname the article as if it was one surname when the article immediately contradicts the current title in the first line makes no sense
893:
There are different pages for several other languages, including all of the Chinese pages, so the two page setup in the only way to create interlanguage links to the others. There are two concepts with the same title, in fact they even have different names in other languages and
588:. I understand where the nom is coming from, but with the same spelling, the different Xus should be addressed on one page. If we have enough information on the various Xus to justify separate pages, that's fine, but this dab/set index page ought to remain where it is.
963:
Wouldn't you use the most common Hanyu Pinyin pronunciation? Also, the different Xu surname articles are all substantial and come from very different origins. If these pages were all on one, how would people know which surname is the one they are looking for?
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into the same page simply because they are the same name in English. Further, 許 and 徐 are literally different names in English when used in Korean or Hokkien etc. I believe there are a few Mandarin dialects where the "X" phoneme is different as well.
1215:, and has the added benefit of being NPOV because it doesn't favor Mandarin pronunciation. I'm not sure whether we would used simplified or traditional character for 許/许. This current article title may either be a DAB page or a
908:
There was absolutely no consensus for a split, and it should not have gone ahead. This is a common surname across the ENGLISH speaking world, and the fact that it has two different origins in Mandarin is not relevant per
805:
per AjaxSmack. Xǔ should redirect to Xu. The majority of users spell it like that without the inflection in English, so it's not really a suitable disambiguator. In fact, as with the comment in the section below, I think
1110:
No one seems to have noticed that there is only one interlanguage link to the Chinese wiki page when the English one is combined into a single page. This obviously doesn't help any readers who wish to find the Chinese
940:
when used as a last name, is also pronounced as xǔ. There are many other instances where last names have not only the same pinyin, but also the same sound. For instance, the last names 顏/颜, 嚴/严, 言, 炎, 延 are
1373:
1304:
About too many Chinese words inside this page was because Chinese got English name, so how do we let people know this person of the surname English and Chinese? Just only can wrote now. No other method!
1211:, etc. so that should be the pattern we follow here. I think it's a good idea to use both tone markers and character for disambiguation, because A) there's not policy against this B) it isn't less
1164:
If we have enough content to justify a split, then I'm all for it (for reasons explained in the colossal Li discussion (We really don't need to go through that all again (I don't want to))).
606:
As previous, no one supports all Springfields being discussed on one page. So someone please explain what then is the difference between a surname homonym and a city homonym?
397:, nevertheless that would require more discussion, so in the interim at least the title should reflect (plural) that it is about two unrelated surnames not a single surname.
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for input. Until the merge/split debate is concluded, I don't think continuing the RM as formulated would be beneficial, so I'm closing it until a wider consensus emerges.
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There should be some sort of guidelines put in place as to whether the Chinese characters should be in Trad/Simp, the layout of page names and umbrella pages etc.
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is a much better disambiguator than the previous one based on diacritics on the Pinyin. Most English speakers would not recognise or understand that. —
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Does this really make sense having 2 totally different surnames combined simply because in one dialect (Mandarin) they have almost the same pinyin?
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How about the consensus to split all of the Li names? These are literally two separate concepts with two separate origins; we don't combine
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Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a
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Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a
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How would a minor state from 1000 years ago be more significant than a surname that is shared by millions of people across the world?--
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The article for 黎 did not have a Chinese character in its title because it is the only Li surname to use the second tone so far.
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It might be a good idea, although one thing that needs to be pointed out is that 李 is almost certainly the primary topic for
913:. If you really want to have separate articles on the two forms then they should be separate child articles, as we see at
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What does "this is the English Knowledge" have to do with whether these are two surnames or one? This is a surname
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related articles on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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572:. There's no reason that various origins of the ENGLISH-language surname can't be discussed in the same article.
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Not suggested split these two Chinese surname with same pronunciation and about mix of Chinese words
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I reckon doing what happened to Li but also moving 黎 page so that they are all in the same format.
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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the original surname page into two – one for surname Xǔ (this one) and the other for surname
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would however be a bigger improvement than the restricted scope of the actual RM proposal.
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See rationale above. Previously, the various surnames Romanized as "Li" were split into
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would like to see a stronger consensus if we are to change that situatoin here. —
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is under. 理's title is Li (surname 理） while 黎 is under the name of Lí (surname).
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Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a
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Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a
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I would suggest everyone to see how we dealt with a similar problem with the
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could have. But I would support redirecting the "surnames" version here.
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this page should be reverted back to its long standing title of
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but you can probably just request a speedy rename for this.--
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So now can i delete your admin notice? I just delete it.
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Having the 黎 character in the name is probably better for
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whatsoever. This is the point of the RM. The title fails
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The following discussion is an archived discussion of a
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Redirect-Class China-related articles of Mid-importance
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being the only thing disambiguating this article from
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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a
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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a
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least be an umbrella article, similar to the one at
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665:. No further edits should be made to this section.
360:. No further edits should be made to this section.
849:. No further edits should be made to this section.
637:. No further edits should be made to this section.
1325:The article is becoming quite lengthy. Based on
773:That would make Xǔ (state) and Xú (state) (徐)
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651:The following is a closed discussion of a
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32:does not require a rating on Knowledge's
478:proposed move, but support the split to
1384:Mid-importance Chinese surname articles
1379:Redirect-Class Chinese surname articles
935:I do not suggest moving this page to Xǔ
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1369:Mid-importance China-related articles
1364:Redirect-Class China-related articles
169:This redirect is within the scope of
76:This redirect is within the scope of
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1389:WikiProject Chinese surname articles
1354:Redirect-Class Anthroponymy articles
1055:with other Han family name titles.--
670:The result of the move request was:
365:The result of the move request was:
1359:NA-importance Anthroponymy articles
551:for Precision and Recognisability.
38:It is of interest to the following
1223:, since that one is more common.--
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99:Template:WikiProject Anthroponymy
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427:or something would be fine. --
231:This redirect is supported by
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1329:it may be time for a split.--
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1137:18:01, 4 September 2016 (UTC)
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616:06:10, 14 November 2013 (UTC)
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561:09:15, 12 November 2013 (UTC)
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449:the same? I agree a split to
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407:08:29, 11 November 2013 (UTC)
372:09:11, 19 November 2013 (UTC)
183:and see a list of open tasks.
90:and see a list of open tasks.
1286:03:25, 25 October 2016 (UTC)
1189:03:27, 25 October 2016 (UTC)
1004:. I might make a RM later.--
310:10:08, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
234:WikiProject Chinese surnames
871:. While I appreciate being
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387:List of surnames spelled Xu
189:Knowledge:WikiProject China
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658:Please do not modify it.
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1074:— Preceding
1002:Li (surname)
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915:Li (surname)
881:No such user
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815:Xu (surname)
810:Xu (surname)
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776:— Preceding
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690:Xǔ (surname)
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40:WikiProjects
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1006:Prisencolin
896:Prisencolin
894:dialects.--
861:Prisencolin
847:move review
761:Prisencolin
718:Prisencolin
663:move review
635:move review
358:move review
325:Prisencolin
282:its history
1348:Categories
1278:Opacitatic
1213:WP:CONCISE
1181:Opacitatic
1080:Opacitatic
1021:Opacitatic
984:Li surname
966:Opacitatic
782:Opacitatic
742:Xǔ (state)
700:Opacitatic
367:not moved
271:page were
1327:WP:LENGTH
1312:K.B.Cheng
749:AjaxSmack
491:Steel1943
1111:pages.--
1088:contribs
1076:unsigned
877:WP:CHINA
790:contribs
778:unsigned
590:Dohn joe
445:How are
369:Armbrust
132:Surnames
30:redirect
1249:Amakuru
1129:Amakuru
950:Yen-Tzu
919:Amakuru
873:WP:BOLD
857:Comment
819:Amakuru
714:Support
213:on the
803:Oppose
586:Oppose
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273:merged
36:scale.
1219:into
917:. —
911:WP:UE
865:split
578:wiser
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417:WP:UE
296:Fork?
275:into
186:China
177:China
127:China
28:This
1335:talk
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1166:_dk
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