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827:, I deliberately omitted the opera titles when I wrote ALT1 because I felt they were a distraction, an unnecessary clause, that stopped the hook in its tracks. I'm not at all worried about readers being disappointed if they get to the article and discover that these aren't Stravinsky's "big names" because they will have read most of the article by then, doubtless with interest, and the hook will have succeeded in getting them there. I included "actor" for Ustinov to both help people place him, but also because if people didn't know/remember him, there is the potential curiosity about a regular actor directing opera. The hidden tribute is so well hidden that it shouldn't be a consideration, especially not when it lessens the hook interest.
915:
with the bloody title (once you know
Bluebeard). ALT1 is built on people rather knowing Stravinsky and Ustinov, and ALT2 plays with it, saying that once we have these attractions, we have the chance to mention three works with really short titles which would never been mentioned on the Main page otherwise. I believe that people will either know Ustinov and be attracted, or be told that he is an actor (among many things which can not be also mentioned) will not attract them any further. The conductor's article has not much to do with Ustinov doing something unusua, but with
364:
1321:, I don't understand why the preferred name in the Knowledge (XXG) article for the opera house, "La Scala", should be changed to the far less well-known "Teatro alla Scala". We want people to have touchstones so they're more likely to click on a hook; using the official name rather than the common one seems yet another unnecessary detail to make the hook less interesting (which, in my opinion, ALT2 already is as compared to ALT1).
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557:, and in the end the stats were due just to her smile? I get tired of DYK, did you know. In the old days, we ran 4 sets a day, and had no time for such discussions. If a hook is not for a reader, OMG, there are so many others. Sorry for getting wordy, just explaining that I understand that the normal answer to DYK should be "no" and not "yes": - present what is
426:
1407:
Could we say "highly traditional" or even "conservative" of La Scala and have that be appropriate NPOV? (Genuinely not sure, I had never heard of La Scala.) I slightly prefer my ALT3 to ALT1 since I feel it explains more why the information might be interesting, but as I said I also think ALT1 works.
636:
Good idea, thank you. I duplicated the ref. My idea was not Togni, but I was sure that the bloody
Bluebeard story was well-known and attractive. Learning. In a way I'd prefer the Hungarian work to Stavinsky, but I think I said before that I'm tired of arguing. Bartók alone would be possible but seems
475:
Knowledge (XXG) is an encyclopedia for general readers, not just for classical music enthusiasts. The hook needs to be appealing even to those unfamiliar with the subject, and right now I agree with Buidhe that the current hook does not do that. Having the attitude of "please accept this hook because
914:
We do a beauty contest. All hooks hava La Scala, for many The opera house, where he did something unusual: contemporary, not Verdi and
Puccini. All hooks try to establish that by an example (or more). The original is built on his home country, Hungarian commposer's great and rather well-known opera
795:
Sorry, Gerda, but ALT2 is too close to saying "A was in X, Y, and Z" - this isn't the kind of thing that gets a hook. ALT1 is a little interesting to me, but I think perhaps the original idea could be revisited? I think the original hook was missing out saying what to Gerda is probably obvious, but
505:
Gerda, I hate to keep breaking this to you, but I think you are overestimating how well-known these operas you mention are among general audiences. Most people could probably only name a handful of operas if any at all, and I don't think
Bluebird is one of those typical examples that would come to
811:
will be pictured DYK later today, and a little tribute, mentioning his
Knowledge (XXG) work, would be what I'd prefer. DYK should be about the things people don't know yet, imho, and the greatest opera house + a composer who caused a scandal in 1913 + a famous (not usually for opera) director be
1475:
Thank you for the offers, but I see two problems. 1) The "traditional" aspect is not part of the conductor's article (nor should it be), - I believe it's kind of implied in "promoted contemporary". 2) Bartók's work is well known (and so is he, no given name needed), but by now already almost a
1022:
Peskó first conducted at La Scala in Milan in 1970: Dallapiccola's Ulisse and
Prokofiev's L'angelo di fuoco, directed by Antonello Madau-Diaz. He conducted the first performance in Milan of Mozart's La finta giardiniera at Piccola Scala, directed by Filippo Crivelli. There he promoted original
1366:
I'm not sure if a consensus has been reached regarding the hook, or if it's appropriate for me to make wording suggestions (I'm new to DYK), but I think ALT1 is more interesting than ALT2. I also think the original hook could be made more "hook-y" by rewording to give more context and less
730:
I changed my mind when looking closer at the "operas". They all have short names, are not really operas, and are too little known, so they could actually be named, which would also reduce readers' disappointment (they might expect the big names), and would be a little hidden tribut to
463:
The readers who don't know that La Scala is one of few best-known opera houses in the world, but tremendously traditional (and mostly
Italian), will not care about the biography of this man. Can we please attract those who do, + those who at least know what Bluebeard refers to?
1023:
programming including contemporary stage works such as operas composers of the Second
Viennese School, Kurt Weill with Milva singing, and music by Aldo Clementi, Azio Corghi and Franco Donatoni, among others. In 1974, he conducted the Italian premiere of Schoenberg's Kol Nidre.
517:. - I can also clearly tell you that I will not take much more of this kind of not wanting to accept the greatest achievements of a subject, only to please our public's ignorance and sensationalism. I can work for ITN 100% of my time, and still have too little. --
440:
The picture doesn't have a great exposure, but it meets the technical requirements. I am not sure that the hook would interest a general audience however, most people don't know what La Scala is or why it's noteworthy to promote contemporary opera there.
796:
isn't to most, and is what makes it hooky: that Zoltán Peskó promoted contemporary opera at La Scala, a notably traditional performance hall. You could propose a hook including that bit of information, provided it gets cited somewhere in the article.
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972:
I just found an
Italian source for the two people, but not location - seems more likely in Italy than Budapest. We have feast days today and tomorrow, - he'll have to wait for more - patience please. --
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528:
N=1, but I've never heard of
Bluebeard before now. Your articles are great, but in my opinion, DYK has a specific function and is not necessarily suitable for all new articles that are created.
476:
it is written specifically for a niche audience" goes against the spirit of DYK, which really requires the opposite (meaning that the hook needs to be interesting to more people, not to less).
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711:
Thank you for the offer. I'd drop that "all" because I understand it's three short works one night, usually staged by the same person. Needless to say, I'd prefer to mention the substantial
716:
1203:, I looked myself now, and found no mentioning of ballet in the review. The article about the opera, btw, was written by Dmitri Smirnov, who died a few days after Pésko. RIP. --
553:
the audience that cultural things exist, and if they are not interested, so what? Instead of this discussion, I could have created a stub article. How long did we discuss
1698:
88:
882:
Another reviewer's opinion needed on the remaining proposed hooks and whether they are adequately interesting, so this review can proceed. Thank you very much.
1101:- here is a detailed source on that work, which is based on a poem of the same name by Trakl. It could be added, but isn't relevant for the conductor, no? --
549:
So you have not heard of Bluebeard, someone else may not have heard of Faust, someone else not of Romeo and Juliette, Undine, Macbeth, ... and why can't we
591:
Seeing as the nominator and the reviewer cannot agree on the suitability of the hook, an opinion from another uninvolved editor would be appreciated here.
621:
Might a hook be made of Peskó conducting the three Stravinsky works at La Scala for the composer's centenary in 1982, with stage direction by actor
1536:
Hi, I came by to promote this, and I'm sorry for adding to this exorbitantly long review, but the grammar in ALT2 doesn't make sense. Do you mean:
494:
So far, we presented just his name, and almost 10k people were interested. Here, we had the chance to even reach those who may have missed it. --
483:
Repeating: Bluebeard should appeal to a large audience, and then even two of those, it's even quirky. Imagine the person was your grandfather. --
1267:
NOTE, I placed a question mark in front of the review comment to make it apparent to others that a review has been completed and in progress.
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to review it. I checked the information against the La Scala source (via Google translation), which confirms the information. Thanks.
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conversation of Peskó and Pierre Boulez about "Musical Aspects in Today's Musical Theatre" was published in 1978 in the journal Tempo
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Among the highlights of this role was the theatre's performance of Tchaikovsky's rarely performed opera The Enchantress with the
1072:
The source says "doppio Barbablù", will check. The article (not by me) was possibly at least partly translated from German. --GA
935:
Right, as is customary, I'll review the entire article, and update the issues below. Still ongoing and I'll ping when I'm done.
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To whoever linked the opera houses to their foreign names, creating redirects to the correct Knowledge (XXG) page (like
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I am sorry to tell you (again?) that you completely misunderstood me, because I didn't mean the operas, but the bloody
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ALT2 is written as BlueMoonset suggested. You can accept it (or the original), or we call for a different reviewer.
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I didn't realize I was supposed to write out the hook! Here's basically what I wrote above, only in hook form:
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I don't really care enough to make a footnote that sources disagree. Opera goes by seasons, 2004/05. --
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You need singers for the opera, and possibly also a ballet, - many operas have dance scenes. Let's ask
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work to three unnamed rarities. - I tried "attraction by mentioning a prominent director" in
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Actually I think that's fine. I've added it. I missed the 'double' at first reading.
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The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below.
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as
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I didn't strike ALT1, seeing all that. The tribute is more open right now,
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seems as if he stopped responding to them in 2004, so I'll let this slide.
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for the composer's centenary in 1982, all with stage direction by actor
1189:- are classical ballet dancers also singers? I'm surprised if they are.
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says "first published 1973". - And then I found something, added. --GA
47:), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page.
1386:
promoted contemporary opera at the traditional Italian opera house
1167:
I added another ref. See also the pt article on the orchestra. --GA
376:
Image is freely licensed, used in the article, and clear at 100px.
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Template:Did you know nominations/San Filippo Neri in Via Giulia
995:- I've fully reviewed the article, take your time, I'll wait.
960:
He graduated from the Liszt Ferenc Academy of Music in 1962,
1255:
but could you use "Teatro alla Scala" instead of "La Scala"?
290:
Article is sourced, neutral, and free of copyright problems
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promoted contemporary opera at the traditional opera house
1426:
Oh, following that line of thinking further, what about:
962:
having studied with Goffredo Petrassi and Franco Ferrara
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chief conductor of the Orquestra Sinfónica Portuguesa
1147:, and the performance was in Düsseldorf, Germany. --GA
1075:
I checked the composer's English article, which says
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classic, - the other is much more "contemporary". --
108:
1289:- thank you! :) I forgot about that, my bad.
968:mentions Ferrara but doesn't say when or where.
232:). Self-nominated at 21:05, 3 April 2020 (UTC).
1644:? - the 3 should follow "stage works", no? --
719:, but that failed, with a reviewer ;) --
8:
49:No further edits should be made to this page
71:
1588:), please don't do that again. Thanks,
74:
1699:Passed DYK nominations from April 2020
1622:'s centenary three of his stage works—
1032:No, oops, sorry. Scala of course. --GA
958:Can you get a source on the bold part
812:hooky enough, not just A B C facts. --
762:for the composer's centenary in 1982,
250:Article is new enough and long enough
1559:for the composer's centenary in 1982—
1339:- okay, got your point. Struck that.
1064:, staged by Maria Francesca Siciliani
1038:Source for the year of conversation?
919:conducting rarely played "operas". --
7:
637:not sufficiently "contemporary". --
1049:Sigh, saw it somewhere but where?
24:
735:, who wrote one of the articles (
45:Knowledge (XXG) talk:Did you know
18:Template:Did you know nominations
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1066:- does the source say Blaubart?
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179:promoted contemporary opera at
68:) 20:57, 4 June 2020 (UTC)
32:Please do not modify this page.
1:
1217:When did Pesko leave Carlos?
1060:coupled with Camillo Togni's
633:) 04:02, 12 April 2020 (UTC)
183:in Milan, including Bartók's
1025:- is this really sourced to
645:) 19:35, 29 April 2020 (UTC)
525:) 12:15, 6 April 2020 (UTC)
502:) 11:40, 6 April 2020 (UTC)
472:) 07:27, 6 April 2020 (UTC)
1596:) 18:28, 4 June 2020 (UTC)
1421:) 02:06, 2 June 2020 (UTC)
1329:) 15:36, 1 June 2020 (UTC)
1235:) 21:08, 2 June 2020 (UTC)
1160:- I don't think the source
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980:) 11:32, 31 May 2020 (UTC)
890:) 14:33, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
835:) 15:21, 26 May 2020 (UTC)
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804:) 23:18, 25 May 2020 (UTC)
792:) 08:32, 23 May 2020 (UTC)
708:) 01:39, 23 May 2020 (UTC)
610:) 20:02, 6 April 2020 (UTC)
569:) 13:48, 6 April 2020 (UTC)
491:) 11:37, 6 April 2020 (UTC)
37:this nomination's talk page
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1676:) 20:55, 4 June 2020 (UTC)
1652:) 19:53, 4 June 2020 (UTC)
1484:) 08:50, 2 June 2020 (UTC)
1470:) 02:10, 2 June 2020 (UTC)
1275:) 14:56, 1 June 2020 (UTC)
1211:) 15:56, 4 June 2020 (UTC)
1087:) 21:12, 2 June 2020 (UTC)
927:) 09:47, 30 May 2020 (UTC)
852:) 15:25, 26 May 2020 (UTC)
727:) 07:22, 23 May 2020 (UTC)
675:conducted three operas by
595:14:14, 6 April 2020 (UTC)
546:13:10, 6 April 2020 (UTC)
510:11:45, 6 April 2020 (UTC)
480:11:07, 6 April 2020 (UTC)
459:01:46, 6 April 2020 (UTC)
1523:16:00, 4 June 2020 (UTC)
1505:it is. Good job! :)
953:03:49, 31 May 2020 (UTC)
911:06:34, 30 May 2020 (UTC)
754:conducted stage works by
119:Find sources (notability)
94:Earwig's Copyvio Detector
1357:00:14, 2 June 2020 (UTC)
1307:00:17, 2 June 2020 (UTC)
1099:Italian Opera Since 1945
1013:04:40, 1 June 2020 (UTC)
893:I'll do a review, soon.
1432:... that the conductor
1377:... that the conductor
1095:Camillo Togni: Blaubart
170:... that the conductor
41:the article's talk page
1396:by Hungarian composer
1121:Giorgio Battistelli's
109:A Simple Word Counter
89:Reviewer instructions
1197:who added that. --GA
1187:in the leading roles
1079:without a source. --
321:copyright violations
164:Zoltán Peskó in 2006
1163:said the bold part.
114:Reviewers' template
1668:Right. Thank you.
1452:Bluebeard's Castle
1393:Bluebeard's Castle
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782:Peter Ustinov
779:
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685:Peter Ustinov
682:
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361:Interesting:
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1635:
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1612:Zoltán Peskó
1610:
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1545:Zoltán Peskó
1543:
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1499:Gerda Arendt
1491:
1478:Gerda Arendt
1450:
1445:, including
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1435:Zoltán Peskó
1433:
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1390:, including
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1380:Zoltán Peskó
1378:
1374:
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1251:I'd approve
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1229:Gerda Arendt
1216:
1205:Gerda Arendt
1184:
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1128:source said
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1103:Gerda Arendt
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991:Gerda Arendt
974:Gerda Arendt
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921:Gerda Arendt
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846:Gerda Arendt
825:Gerda Arendt
814:Gerda Arendt
786:Gerda Arendt
775:
769:
763:
751:
748:Zoltán Peskó
746:
742:
736:
721:Gerda Arendt
717:another hook
712:
694:Gerda Arendt
672:
669:Zoltán Peskó
667:
663:
639:Gerda Arendt
604:Gerda Arendt
563:Gerda Arendt
558:
550:
541:
536:
531:
519:Gerda Arendt
496:Gerda Arendt
485:Gerda Arendt
466:Gerda Arendt
454:
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431:
418:
417:
373:
344:
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287:
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226:Gerda Arendt
222:
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194:
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176:
173:Zoltán Peskó
171:
135:Zoltán Peskó
57:
55:
48:
31:
28:
1542:: ... that
1447:Béla Bartók
1398:Béla Bartók
1335:BlueMoonset
1323:BlueMoonset
1143:is Italian
884:BlueMoonset
829:BlueMoonset
745:: ... that
702:BlueMoonset
666:: ... that
627:BlueMoonset
269:Long enough
124:Hook length
75:DYK toolbox
1620:Stravinsky
1616:(pictured)
1599:No, sorry.
1553:Stravinsky
1549:(pictured)
1439:(pictured)
1384:(pictured)
1285:Flibirigit
1269:Flibirigit
1223:says 2005.
823:Actually,
756:Stravinsky
752:(pictured)
677:Stravinsky
673:(pictured)
325:plagiarism
258:New enough
177:(pictured)
1625:The Flood
1562:The Flood
765:The Flood
713:Hungarian
561:known. --
515:character
99:QPQ check
84:DYK check
1693:Category
1607:La Scala
1586:La Scala
1557:La Scala
1509:starship
1460:~ oulfis
1443:La Scala
1411:~ oulfis
1388:La Scala
1343:starship
1293:starship
1077:Blaubart
1062:Blaubart
999:starship
939:starship
897:starship
760:La Scala
692:Pinging
681:La Scala
319:Free of
248:General:
212:Reviewed
201:Source:
195:Blaubart
181:La Scala
58:promoted
1670:Yoninah
1590:Yoninah
1367:detail:
1195:Amakuru
798:Kingsif
559:not yet
432:Overall
309:Neutral
288:Policy:
216:to come
62:Yoninah
1634:, and
1631:Renard
1571:, and
1568:Renard
1514:.paint
1348:.paint
1298:.paint
1004:.paint
944:.paint
902:.paint
771:Renard
737:Renard
698:buidhe
506:mind.
374:Image:
327:, and
1637:Mavra
1603:ALT2b
1574:Mavra
1540:ALT2a
1456:?
1430:ALT4:
1401:?
1375:ALT3:
777:Mavra
551:teach
429:- TBD
351:Cited
198:?
16:<
1674:talk
1650:talk
1594:talk
1519:talk
1503:ALT2
1482:talk
1468:talk
1419:talk
1353:talk
1327:talk
1303:talk
1273:talk
1253:ALT2
1233:talk
1209:talk
1107:talk
1097:in:
1085:talk
1051:this
1042:1972
1009:talk
978:talk
949:talk
925:talk
907:talk
888:talk
850:talk
844:. --
833:talk
818:talk
802:talk
790:talk
784:? --
774:and
743:ALT2
725:talk
706:talk
664:ALT1
643:talk
631:talk
608:talk
602:. --
567:talk
537:uidh
523:talk
500:talk
489:talk
470:talk
450:uidh
230:talk
189:and
66:talk
1555:at
917:him
758:at
679:at
420:QPQ
193:'s
60:by
43:or
1695::
1628:,
1609:,
1565:,
1497:-
1463:🌸
1414:🌸
1132:.
1093:,
1040:A
965:.
768:,
739:):
464:--
434::
423::
397::
386::
353::
331::
323:,
311::
300::
271::
260::
214::
139:(
39:,
1672:(
1648:(
1592:(
1581:?
1521:)
1517:(
1480:(
1466:(
1417:(
1355:)
1351:(
1337::
1333:@
1325:(
1305:)
1301:(
1287::
1283:@
1271:(
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1207:(
1105:(
1083:(
1028:?
1011:)
1007:(
993::
989:@
976:(
951:)
947:(
923:(
909:)
905:(
886:(
848:(
831:(
816:(
800:(
788:(
723:(
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687:?
641:(
629:(
606:(
565:(
542:e
532:b
521:(
498:(
487:(
468:(
455:e
445:b
228:(
154:)
64:(
51:.
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